On the other hand, you're clearly the life of the party in everyday life.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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I actually am mate. The type of parties I attend, football is not a topic of conversation. Everyone is too busy you know, partying.
I don't know how adults don't cringe when they use terms like "ole in brigade" or "ole out mafia", it's quite pathetic isn't it? We're all Utd fans, we all want whats best for the club. This obsession in society of trying to divide people now is so sad, has to be us vs them. Grow up.
Bravo
Says the guy who betrayed the Messiah.
I think you should consider stepping away from these threads. Everyone and their mother knows your opinion at this stage, and it's absolutely painful to see your posts on every page. There is no need for you to reiterate your negativity every single day, in every single Utd related thread. We get it.
Agree with most of your post, but the bolded part here it is simply not true. Ofcourse one can say that he has a tactical deficiency when having a string of bad games against similar sides/plays. And the definition of "good enough" is debatable. There has been lots of examples of "bad quality" teams getting good results because of the manager - where they have been coached over and over again on a very specific tactic which makes them as a team better than all their parts.
As always, these type of issues are never black and white. For me it is a combination of not good enough coaching and not good enough players at these games.
And as always, one could off-set the other. E.g. if the coaching were world-class, the players he had available should be good enough to get better results. On the other side, if the players were world-class, they should be good enough to get better results without world-class coaching.
Point is, in these situations you can never claim it is purely the one or the other, it is always a combination of many different factors. Adding to the coaching and player variables you could make the point that they are a relativly "new side" - e.g. young players not 100% used to Ole's system, not having the required mentality yet, etc. etc. But claiming Ole is 100% exonorated is simply not helping the discussion.
Have you quoted the wrong post there? Or is it brutal self-assessment day?
Excellent quoting there mate. I feel exactly the same way about you and your positivity.....why do you need to keep reiterating it? It swings both ways mate. This thread title is 'keep or sack' IE contains both opinions. If you don't want to hear both viewpoints,go create your own Ole In echo chamber somewhere and keep it only for those who want to contribute positively.
I agree that Moyes' United were probably over their peak - but it's a bit harsh to compare a team of World-class players (although ageing) - to a team of 20-22 year olds and claim that the manager is doing worse than Moyes
Haha, yeah I've had a mare there!Have you quoted the wrong post there? Or is it brutal self-assessment day?
I reckon you've more moaning posts in this thread alone than I do in 8 years. Everyone is entitled to post their opinion, but why you need to spam every thread with yours, when the majority of people are sick of it, is another matter.
Easily done.
50% of the forum agrees with my opinion mate, same as yours. Hence we are both equally entitled to post our views here. Go find your echo chamber somewhere else, you clearly need one.
Good post - thanks for taking the time.
With regards to the poll here - I think its okay for people to change their votes. Saying Keep doesn't mean they want him here for 5 years, it should just mean that right now there is enough there not to fire him - which anyone apart from the most staunch Sack voter should be able to admit that this is currently the case. By all means change back to Sack if we lose the next two, but right now the fact that over half of all voters still think he should be sacked today is ludicrous.
Agreeing with basis of your opinion does not equate to enjoying you whine every 10 posts in 15 different threads.
Its ironic that you accuse people of short term thinking when this is how most of the plan believers look at the group that want him out. I'm surprised that the swing has been only 3%.
I wouldn't read to much into the 50/50 split to be honest. Its been quite clearly demonstrated by (a) post match threads generally being about double the size after a draw/defeat and (b) the slowdown in the posting on the two main Ole threads over the last week, that there is a large section of this forum that will either post negative content or not post at all. Not aimed at you as you post regardless, but there is no doubt that this is true.
Not surprised the poll swings after each win or loss. Fans behavior is like a yo yo. I saw someone on here yesterday trying to say Lingard was one of our most improved players because he has been decent the last 2 matches. However it doesn't matter that he was diabolical the previous 12 months. I have voted Ole out a long time ago. I wont change my stance.
However I am prepared to take a step back and see where we are at the end of the season. If we finish in the top 6 and he can get some consistency in our performances then I am prepared to back him into next season. Anything lower is unacceptable.
Ole's key challenge now is to get the players to maintain their level of performance on a regular basis. That and continue with a good recruitment policy. We still need to offload a core group of players, and we are desperate for quality in midfield.
However I am prepared to take a step back and see where we are at the end of the season. If we finish in the top 6 and he can get some consistency in our performances then I am prepared to back him into next season. Anything lower is unacceptable.
Ole's key challenge now is to get the players to maintain their level of performance on a regular basis. That and continue with a good recruitment policy. We still need to offload a core group of players, and we are desperate for quality in midfield.
Use the ignore option.
Did it after my last response!
So you voted Ole out and won’t change your stance. But, you’ll give him till the end of the season and possibly next season.
makes sense
I have voted out based on his performance thus far this season. At the moment I see no reason to change my opinion. However my opinion would change if he delivers on what I have stated above. What doenst make sense about that?
I won't say Ole is tactically clueless, but he is still far behind from other tactical masterclasses and big team managers to say the least. Shaw revealed Ole's philosophy during preseason, if you look deeper you would understand that it is reasonable for fans to question his tactical ability.
The first thing is the emphasis on playing out from the back and possession play. It is true that we see de Gea playing short to the centre backs, but after that we can't comfortably move the ball forward (especially without Pogba) due to a lack of team cohesion. More often than not we have to go long at last, which makes the whole idea meaningless. In the end, I'm pretty sure most of us would agree that we are more threatening on fast break than possession play.
The second emphasis is about pressing. We see Rashford, James run a lot to close down the opponents this season, but how often do we successfully win the possession back up front by high pressing? This is due to a contradiction between Ole's offensive and defensive gameplan. Offensively, Ole allows freedom and encourages players to swap positions. This provides a loophole for the opponents to break our high press as our players have not yet returned to their original position to form a defensive block. A successful high press requires the whole block to press and close down all opponents together, otherwise it's just a waste of energy. That's why the pressing looks better when we play in a more structured setup against bigger sides. Guardiola and Klopp understand this point very well, and you never see City and Liverpool switching wing in the middle of a play.
It's not the league position or point that worry me most, but the progress we have made since Ole's takeover.
In terms of transfer I think there are three major talking points worth mentioning.
First, it is the lack of depth in midfield, in terms of both quality and quantity. I agree that Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James are good signings, but I have always thought that our midfield has a higher priority, and it is quite a disappointment that no signing was made in that position. With Fellaini and Herrera gone, we made no attempt to cover the loss. If Ole decided to play 4-2-3-1 this season, he should have known the limitation of Lingard and Mata (with their display in previous seasons) and brought in another option. Many argue that our players are not good enough, but it should be reminded that it is one of the manager's responsibilities to build a steady and sustainable squad.
Second, it is Smalling's loan switch to Roma. Although not comfortable with the ball at his feet, Smalling has been solid in defence in recent years. He is quick and athletic, and it is proven that he is good at dealing with top physical strikers like Kane, Suarez etc. He is a much more reliable defender than Lindelof (weak in the air), Jones (poor positioning), Rojo and Bailly (injury-prone). For me, it is definitely a wrong decision to let him go and keep these four instead.
Third, it is about squad rotation and the use of young players. It was claimed that Lukaku and Sanchez were abandoned so as to provide more opportunities to young players, similar to the situation in the van Gaal era. It is true that their performance was poor last season, but they were more than capable to be a rotation player for us. Now, whenever Martial, Rashford or James is injured, we run out of reliable options and have no choice but to switch formation or put Pereira there. Youth prospects like Greenwood, Chong and Garner never really get sufficient playing time in the league, while the first team suffers from a lack of rotation players. It is just an illusion that Ole trusts young players, what he does is just promoting them to the first team.
Didn't you just say in your last post that you were "prepared to take a step back and see where we are at the end of the season". That means you would keep him, and not sack him. But your vote is still for Sack? It's a bit confusing.
That team had just won the league few months prior too, they didn't just fall off a cliff in terms of their ability. Moysie just rubbed everyone completely the wrong way and sacked SAF's staff for Phil Neville and co. He had De Gea, Rio, Vidic, Giggs, RVP, Rooney, Evra, Nani, Valencia, Rafael, Carrick, Zaha, Kagawa to name just a few. Shocking to say the least. Demotivated and alienated the whole club.
What a long post of rubbish. If Ole doesn't sanction the contacts of the poor players in the squad Woodward doesn't offer the contracts. It's that simple.
I notice this a lot, the absolving of blame on Solksjaer by blaming Woodward. Ed is poor but he isn't a lone wolf handing out contracts whenever he feels like it.
Solskjaer advised Woodward to extend the contacts of at least 3 players who should have been sold a long time a go. Alongside him rewarding players with pay rises before they've earnt it has lead to a lack of motivation in a lot of games. These a re ust part of the poor decisions the boss has made and it is on him and no one else.
Agreed on first, I know it's not that easy to find and sign a good one with the right mentality but he should have signed a good DM/MC. We're so thin in the mid.
Second: Ole's plan was to attack with the ball built from the CBs so I think his decision to make it's clear that Lindelof and Maguire would be the two starting CB was understandable. Smalling just would not fit in that plan and it was him who wanted to leave for first team football despite Ole wanting to keep him.
Third: Lukaku clearly wanted out. Sanchez I think the lesser we discuss about him the better. And according to reports, creditable or not both were a really bad influence within the dressing room. For the youngsters I don't see Chong, Garner, Gomes or Greenwood physically ready for 1st team football yet. And if it's just an illusion that Ole trusts young players then he wouldn't have signed James and played him that much but rather some established players. Or keep and play Lukaku/Sanchez at the expense of the development of Rashford and Martial. Or keep playing Matic instead of young McT or Pereira.
You decided to call my post rubbish without going per case by case to provide your argument and point out what's wrong in my argument. Then stick to your opinions without any fact to back it.
I think we'd better stop here, it's just a waste of time tbh.
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I don't want to waste my time going through each of your points to explain why each is wrong or twisted to absolve blame on the boss.
My post is entirely based on facts theres no way to misinterpret what the boss chose to do in regards to certain contract extensions.
Yes - if the sample size is sufficient over time and mitigating circumstances can't be claimed (anymore, reasonably).
We haven't reached that point, though. My point is simple: you can't overcome a significant deficiency in the creative department through fielding a well drilled unit - that isn't realistic given the quality of even "lesser" PL teams. You need someone who can unlock a defence, create an imbalance, come up with something unpredictable, etc. And you need a functional midfield. We've had neither on many occasions this season - that is a mitigating circumstance in itself. Again, you can argue that Ole shouldn't have gone into the season light - but that's a different debate, it has nothing to do with his tactical in-match nous as such.
Yes it was a better team - and I am not saying they fell off a Cliff as soon as Ferguson left, but the majority of that team was 30+ and I just expect that they lacked that hunger to do it again with a new manager. But in fairness - none of these players ever came close to that form at United or anywhere else.
So I am not saying Moyes did a good job, I am simply stating that every single manager in the world would have struggled in that season. I genuinely Believe that team weren't physically or mentally prepared for a new season with a new manager.
I agreed with your point about not comparing a team of experienced/world class players to the current squad of 20-22 year olds we have right now. I was just reiterating it I guess, and as you've already stated it'd be very harsh to compare Moyes and Ole as Moyes had a far better team imo.
You're right about that - and if my post came across as a pure apology for Ole, I...er...apologize, because it wasn't intended as such. More of a "jury's still out" stance.
I've said before that I'm worried about not seeing anything undeniable in the way he approaches games (tactically). When we look lost, we look utterly lost - which isn't a good sign, not at all. Hitting opponents on the counter is, all things said and done, easier than implementing an effective brand of football designed to overcome opponents who don't necessarily accommodate our strengths - this is obvious, and Ole hasn't showed anything, so far, which indicates that he's on his way to implementing the above.
He still needs the basic tools, though - as any manager does. He can't coach certain players into playmakers when they lack the basic requirements.
Taking a step back meaning I am not a knee jerk fan changing my vote after every win or loss. Any finish in the league lower than 6th with this squad would be a massive failure and he would need to go
I still think if we don't have CL football next season he needs to go. If he achieves that, he deserves another season. I can at times see what he's trying to build and I love the personality, but we need to have a baseline expectation we can't sink below.
Keeping Ole until the end of the season then sack him means sack or keep him (the vote) ?
I'm confused too. I have the same view and I voted keep.
@MrSingh2002 your question was actually "Would you sack Ole now?" I think?
Again, for me, this classifies as a Keep because like @Strelok, I understood the question here as whether you would sack him or keep him now, not at some point in the future, based on his future performance.
In
That couldn't have gone better. Risked almost nobody and won 4 nil. Great stuff.
on the back of 8 wins in 12 games, scoring 20 goals in 8 games - the majority in here still want to sack OGS. Remarkable!
Oh yes and we apparently won a fairly big game during the weekend as well
Oh yes and we apparently won a fairly big game during the weekend as well
In fact, the football heritage inherited by Moyes was not really as good as you imagined. Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra were so bad that they made so many mistakes, and they were major culprits responsible for that year of collapse. Zaha was immature by then and he admitted it himself. Kagawa has never been up to the standard. Among all, only van Persie and Rooney were reliable, but they were suffering from recurrent injuries that season. Moyes may be poor in man management, but I feel for him in many aspects.
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