Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[meamth]

Oh god, the knee jerks are back.

 

[meamth]

I'd blame Bruno's performance last night, he was under performing, doesn't look like his usual self. Miss placing some easy passes and everything he tried doesn't materialized.

Players seems lethargic against this energetic Soton side, we got what we deserved. Still on course to 3rd place though, we can do it.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

That’s not true and, even if it was, it is progress. Ole has one of the youngest clubs in the league, all I am asking for is one more year and then evaluate him at that point.

What else has he stabilized?


Weeding out poor characters? I'll agree with that sure. Sanchez/Lukaku are gone.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I guess I have to give it to you there, cuz the teams Pep and Zidane came to were maybe even worse than what Ole inherited. /s

I get it, you fecking hate the guy and feel like a year is enough for someone to prove themselves. But, imo, put any of those managers in Ole‘s position at the time and the first thing they are going to say is open the checkbook and give me a couple years. Oh, and one of your guys mentioned had his fecking shot and failed. Are you arguing he should get another chance?

He said Mourinho at his peak to be fair.

Mourinho in 2016 was completely past it.

 

[Majima]

At the darkest day earlier this season, imo Newcastle away, where it felt like the whole club was in meltdown, when De Gea was on the verge of tears & Ole looked like a deer caught in the headlights. I was definitely Ole out back then. No way did i think he was capable of turning it around after that day. I thought he was finished.

But to his credit, he has never tried to blame the players at any point, no matter how bad it got, and now, a few months after Bruno's inspired signing, we've clawed back a large point deficit, are currently 18 games unbeaten and broken a PL record along the way. We have been a joy to watch again. The players are so happy. We look almost unbeatable going forward. That's with a young home grown attack that has been molded by him through hard work on the training pitch.

Fair play to the man. He has shown some serious character this season. I honestly don't care if we don't make top 4. The fact that he's come back from that point, through sheer hard work on the training ground with his head held high, means I've seen more than enough to believe that he's the right man for us going forward to lead our young team without any doubt.

One thing i would like to see in the future though is, just like how SAF used to refresh his assistants to bring in new strategies the team was lacking at that time (e.g. Queiroz & transition to European fluid 433 style), I hope Ole is capable of doing the same too. Southampton's organisation and pressing was very impressive tonight. We have a clear weakness of being unable to keep our composure and struggle to control the game vs this type of opponent strategy. if Ole is unable to fully counter these team's plans, i hope he can bring someone in to help him and us do so.

 

[treble_winner]

Fair play to the man. He has shown some serious character this season. I honestly don't care if we don't make top 4. The fact that he's come back from that point, through sheer hard work with his head held high, means I've seen more than enough to believe that he's the right man for us going forward to lead our young team without any doubt.

You may not care, but I'm not so sure about our board. Ever since Fergie's departure, every manager who couldn't get top 4 for us was fired immediately. It looked like some sort of iron-clad rule our board has set up. And given that Pochettino is still unemployed, Ole's position may be in greater heat than you expect.

Given our lackluster performance against Southampton, a season ending similar of last year might not be that far away. The ridiculous top 4 race last season had all teams staggering through the line. We, Chelsea, Leicester all lost points this round. Our players looked tired and knackered, and we lost both our LBs. We might just be a few rounds away from another disastrous season under Ole's wheel.

 

[NecssryEvil]

What else has he stabilized?


Weeding out poor characters? I'll agree with that sure. Sanchez/Lukaku are gone.

So the football you are seeing United play now is not better than what we were playing in Dec 2018? The attitude isn’t better? The youth coming through don’t look promising or that we are not investing properly? That we don’t have the best RW in English football lined up to sign? That we have played half a dozen games with a starting 11 that are amongst the youngest in EPL and have one of the most promising front lines in the world? Not to mention Pogba and Bruno in the middle?

Are we there yet? No. But to say we haven‘t reversed the direction and started to stabilize? Oi.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

So the football you are seeing United play now is not better than what we were playing in Dec 2018? The attitude isn’t better? The youth coming through don’t look promising or that we are not investing properly? That we don’t have the best RW in English football lined up to sign? That we have played half a dozen games with a starting 11 that are amongst the youngest in EPL and have one of the most promising front lines in the world? Not to mention Pogba and Bruno in the middle?

Are we there yet? No. But to say we haven‘t reversed the direction and started to stabilize? Oi.

I think our football post lock-down has been great. Prior to the lock-down, I don't think we played great, but it was definitely an improvement compared to earlier in the season.

Attitude is better perhaps. Investing properly is subjective considering the fee we paid for Maguire and Wan Bissaka. We'll likely need CL football to sign Sancho.

If we get top 4, I'll have no complaints.

If we fail to make top 4, that's a worrying sign to me. There are no excuses now for Ole and the coaching staff being unable to conjure up a top 4 finish. If we've truly reversed the direction, then we're making top 4 or winning the Europa League.

 

[NecssryEvil]

He said Mourinho at his peak to be fair.

Mourinho in 2016 was completely past it.

Yeah, and that I have no idea how to respond to. It feels like he was proving my point while trying to take a shot at Ole. If Mo was able to do it before, what held him up at United since it is not the lack of quality players, simply a matter of getting a manager who can work with whatever is put in front of him, no questions asked. He did it with a lot less at Porto, do you just forget, or are there other aspects to building a team besides the manager? Past it is an interesting out in this debate.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Yeah, and that I have no idea how to respond to. It feels like he was proving my point while trying to take a shot at Ole. If Mo was able to do it before, what held him up at United since it is not the lack of quality players, simply a matter of getting a manager who can work with whatever is put in front of him, no questions asked. He did it with a lot less at Porto, do you just forget, or are there other aspects to building a team besides the manager? Past it is an interesting out in this debate.

Do you think Mourinho is 2016 is of the same quality as Mourinho in say 2010 when he won the treble?

 

[Red Comet]

Jesus Christ. The absolute meltdown after one fecking DRAW against Southampton. The same team that has fantastic away form, and beaten Man City by 2 goals. And while our unbeaten run is still ongoing!

I thought a defeat would draw those Ole Out/Poch In/Never Mou Out crowd our from their hiding places under a rock, but it seems like a draw against a known bogey team is enough. It almost like these people live to see Ole fail.

 

[NecssryEvil]

I think our football post lock-down has been great. Prior to the lock-down, I don't think we played great, but it was definitely an improvement compared to earlier in the season.

Attitude is better perhaps. Investing properly is subjective considering the fee we paid for Maguire and Wan Bissaka. We'll likely need CL football to sign Sancho.

If we get top 4, I'll have no complaints.

If we fail to make top 4, that's a worrying sign to me. There are no excuses now for Ole and the coaching staff being unable to conjure up a top 4 finish. If we've truly reversed the direction, then we're making top 4 or winning the Europa League.

Eddy, I think we are both looking for the same thing and that is obviously United competing for everything. It’s not if, it’s when and we all have our ideas of how to make that happen as soon as possible. I just think we need to give Ole full support for one more year. I think he has earned it, lots don’t. I get that.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Jesus Christ. The absolute meltdown after one fecking DRAW against Southampton. The same team that has fantastic away form, and beaten Man City by 2 goals. And while our unbeaten run is still ongoing!

I thought a defeat would draw those Ole Out/Poch In/Never Mou Out crowd our from their hiding places under a rock, but it seems like a draw against a known bogey team is enough. It almost like these people live to see Ole fail.

This is nonsense. No on here is hoping for Ole to fail and his critics are the same ones who wanted Mourinho out(and sooner too). There's literally a person in here saying he thinks going from Ole to Poch is a sideways move too.

 

[NecssryEvil]

Do you think Mourinho is 2016 is of the same quality as Mourinho in say 2010 when he won the treble?

No. But I think his most impressive work was at Porto.

Edit: What happened to him? Simply arrogance?

 

[Revan]

I guess I have to give it to you there, cuz the teams Pep and Zidane came to were maybe even worse than what Ole inherited. /s

I get it, you fecking hate the guy and feel like a year is enough for someone to prove themselves. But, imo, put any of those managers in Ole‘s position at the time and the first thing they are going to say is open the checkbook and give me a couple years. Oh, and one of your guys mentioned had his fecking shot and failed. Are you arguing he should get another chance?

I don't hate him, I just think that he is not a particularly great manager. I also think that he has had more than a year to proof himself, in fact he has been here for 20 months.

No, I think that Mourinho is a bad manager now. I said clearly Mourinho at his peak. His peak has been a long time ago.

Real were looking really bad before Zidane, and now they look great. He also won more UCL in 2.5 years than any other manager (except Ancelotti) on their career. A very great manager, not just a lucky one carried by a great team.

 

[NecssryEvil]

This is nonsense. No on here is hoping for Ole to fail and his critics are the same ones who wanted Mourinho out(and sooner too). There's literally a person in here saying he thinks going from Ole to Poch is a sideways move too.

Not sure who you are referencing, but what does Poch bring to the table that Ole doesn’t? More experience at the PL level, and?

 

[NecssryEvil]

I don't hate him, I just think that he is not a particularly great manager. I also think that he has had more than a year to proof himself, in fact he has been here for 20 months.

No, I think that Mourinho is a bad manager now. I said clearly Mourinho at his peak. His peak has been a long time ago.

Real were looking really bad before Zidane, and now they look great. He also won more UCL in 2.5 years than any other manager (except Ancelotti) on their career. A very great manager, not just a lucky one carried by a great team.

If you don’t think Madrid were stacked when he arrived, especially compared to what Ole walked in to, then i am not sure we will agree on much else.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Not sure who you are referencing, but what does Poch bring to the table that Ole doesn’t? More experience at the PL level, and?

I didn't suggest we should replace Ole with Poch.

I also think it's a lateral move.

I'd only replace Ole if we could get in a better manager.

 

[Revan]

If you don’t think Madrid were stacked when he arrived, especially compared to what Ole walked in to, then i am not sure we will agree on much else.

They were good, but they were a team that should have won 3 UCLs in a row. No team had ever won two in a row.

They were not very good the second time around.

 

[NecssryEvil]

I didn't suggest we should replace Ole with Poch.

I also think it's a lateral move.

I'd only replace Ole if we could get in a better manager.

My apologies, maybe I misread you. I agree that United should always be looking for an upgrade at any position, even the tea lady.

 

[NecssryEvil]

They were good, but they were a team that should have won 3 UCLs in a row. No team had ever won two in a row.

They were not very good the second time around.

Wanna try that again? Because I have no fecking idea what you tried to say there!

Say what you want, Madrid was LOADED when he got there.

 

[Tony247]

His subs are methodical in a way that he decides before the match.

 

[Red Company]

I have no idea to be fair. Our lack of DoF and a football structure in addition to the manager means that we are fecked either way. Stick with what looks a mediocre manager, or burn everything down and start the new cycle, without any guarantee that it is gonna get better. Which has been going since SAF left.

I think that we missed a trick by not hiring Zidane when we could have, and not hiring a DoF (or a few football men who are responsible for the structure at the club).

Now, dunno. Allegri is the only great free manager right there, but hardly an inspiring choice. Probably the best option is to stick with Ole but start preparing for the end of next season. Which means scouting managers, and getting football men at the club, like any modern club does.

Changing the manager should be a straightforward thing, but at United is a colossal task cause we seriously lack on the management of the football side of the club. At the same time, judging the manager should be an objective task, not a worshipping cult when the manager can do no wrong.

Referring to the bolded parts below:

1) I just yesterday had a discussion about the DoF with a poster in this thread.. you can probably find them via my profile. If anything, the lack of DoF was felt more when the previous managers were stamping their own footprint without any relation to our own club ideology. Which lead to horrible football being played. Ole has brought us back to our clubs ideology and now the timing is better to hire a DoF as we can hire someone who will compliment both, our club and our manager. I think our structure is also much better now. We’re just missing a DoF and we don’t really need to wait until the end of next season. It’s high time we take the burden off of Ole behind the scenes and let him focus on his main coaching duties.

2) Zidane would’ve never worked out for us just like Ole wouldn’t have worked out for Madrid. As I mentioned, coaches like Zidane, Lampard, Ole, Pep have/could/will be most successful with their home clubs because they understand it best. Hiring Zidane would’ve been another step down the wrong channel just like Allegri could be. We need to stick to our own clubs ideologies and if Ole doesn’t work out, we need someone who will support our way. I would never have Pep come here and play tiki-taka football. Doesn’t matter how established or good he may be. That is the only reason people are continuing to support Ole. Just like they stuck by SAF. It’s important to never lose your identity as a club. We tried going the way of hiring a proven manager but as has been evident, it did us no good! We even gave them blank check books and spent close to £1bn over the last decade almost.

3) In all humbleness, I’d like to point out that the last bolded point about “...worshipping cult” is disrespectful to our fans because nobody is ignorant or blind enough to follow Ole non-objectively. There is obviously a reason people started riding his bandwagon and now more have hopped on. At least we’re not lost anymore or hiring the same old have-beens (LvG, Mou).

Now to my last personal point; based on your response I noticed you don’t find Ole good enough but you also don’t know who to hire/replace him with or what to do in the near future until the ‘end of the next season’. So can I say you’re feeling safe enough now to stick with him until then?

 

[Skills]

3) In all humbleness, I’d like to point out that the last bolded point about “...worshipping cult” is disrespectful to our fans because nobody is ignorant or blind enough to follow Ole non-objectively. There is obviously a reason people started riding his bandwagon and now more have hopped on. At least we’re not lost anymore or hiring the same old have-beens (LvG, Mou).

Oh trust me, if there is a fanbase ignorant or blind enough then it is ours. You only have to look at the cult of Mourinho and fecking Moyes of all people.

 

[Tony247]

Yesterday almost everyone on caf predicting a scrappy win. At least i thought so. A scrappy win means we would be hanging on to single goal lead towards the end. We armchair pundits can predict that then coaching staff should have been prepared for such eventuality and their subs should be more tactical than replacing predertmined like for like. Fred is short and not useful against set pieces. McT should have come instead of him, and then Bailly should have been sent to fend off aerial threat in dying minutes.

Ole has been very good in grooming the talent, rebuilding the team etc. But his in game management lacks intelligence. Its like no matter what the game is, what type of opponent is, what type of situation the team is in 80th minute, but he will go with a single mindset.

 

[Revan]

Referring to the bolded parts below:

1) I just yesterday had a discussion about the DoF with a poster in this thread.. you can probably find them via my profile. If anything, the lack of DoF was felt more when the previous managers were stamping their own footprint without any relation to our own club ideology. Which lead to horrible football being played. Ole has brought us back to our clubs ideology and now the timing is better to hire a DoF as we can hire someone who will compliment both, our club and our manager. I think our structure is also much better now. We’re just missing a DoF and we don’t really need to wait until the end of next season. It’s high time we take the burden off of Ole behind the scenes and let him focus on his main coaching duties.

2) Zidane would’ve never worked out for us just like Ole wouldn’t have worked out for Madrid. As I mentioned, coaches like Zidane, Lampard, Ole, Pep have/could/will be most successful with their home clubs because they understand it best. Hiring Zidane would’ve been another step down the wrong channel just like Allegri could be. We need to stick to our own clubs ideologies and if Ole doesn’t work out, we need someone who will support our way. I would never have Pep come here and play tiki-taka football. Doesn’t matter how established or good he may be. That is the only reason people are continuing to support Ole. Just like they stuck by SAF. It’s important to never lose your identity as a club. We tried going the way of hiring a proven manager but as has been evident, it did us no good! We even gave them blank check books and spent close to £1bn over the last decade almost.

3) In all humbleness, I’d like to point out that the last bolded point about “...worshipping cult” is disrespectful to our fans because nobody is ignorant or blind enough to follow Ole non-objectively. There is obviously a reason people started riding his bandwagon and now more have hopped on. At least we’re not lost anymore or hiring the same old have-beens (LvG, Mou).

Now to my last personal point; based on your response I noticed you don’t find Ole good enough but you also don’t know who to hire/replace him with or what to do in the near future until the ‘end of the next season’. So can I say you’re feeling safe enough now to stick with him until then?

1) I think that the best time to hire a DoF, was the day Fergie left. The second best time was the next day, and the third best time was a day later. You get the drill. So the best time for now, would pretty much be tomorrow or so.

2) I really don't buy this identity thing. It is a bunch of nonsense that really does not exist. Just an imagination on describing whatever is happening at that particular successful time. I mean, what really is identity of United, would love to know it?! What is that of Madrid? I guess winning a lot of UCL. But then that is desirable for every club.

I also don't buy this special manager for a club. I believe that SAF would have been great anywhere (given enough power obviously), as would have been Cruyff, Mourinho, Pep, Klopp etc. Yes, Zidane too.

3) Oh but it is. Just go check Moyes' thread in 2013-2014. In every club, the manager is another employee (a very important one obviously) who is there to serve the club. At United, the manager is a demi-god, and the club is there to serve the manager.

About your last point, more or less yes. I don't think he is good and I don't think this season has been great, but at the same time I do not trust Ed to fix this (he has been awful in most football-related things), I think we have left it late, I think this summer is a bad one to change managers (no pre-season), I am not sure if anyone except Allegri is good enough and available, and not having a structure above the manager means that it would most likely be another clusterfeck. So I guess I have to become a theist again.

 

[Red Company]

It's not?
Ok from what I understand, you rate Ole's coaching prowess. Therefore the problems lies with the players..?

I don't see our players being comfortable with the pressings today. Instead they are nervous and start to play more and more long-balls, and when they try to play the ball on feet, mistakes happened. No doubt some players are comfortable eg. Shaw, Matic, Lindelof mainly because they know what to do and comfortable against high-press, but then there are others who are not.

^ Still, too much reliance on individuals. We kept up just enough with teams pressings because our individual talents are far better than theirs and, no doubt theirs organisation, team discipline and team-pressings are much better than ours today.

We couldn't control the game today which is just ridiculous for a top team.

I do agree we cannot expect perfection from every game, that's not realistic. And I don't buy this fatigue excuse being the cause of how why we fail to take control or even our players couldn't connect passes to each other (being high pressured) as if they never play with each other. Other than the occasional times where the play connects, or few players are in sync with each other today.

That said, our players did had a go back and we could've won. Alas. Inability to keep calm and control the game and keep possession though is not the first time has happened. It's fine to be optimistic, but I rather be realistic. There are clear improvements with Ole of course, but still not enough.

Spoiler: Strictly coaching..

Ole's not like Pep I suppose who engineer the specifics way how the players play in every single detail -- how to build-up, where, who and how to pass, positioning must be right, etc. Of course, there is also some individual reliance on the players but his coaching is effective and generally team-performance are well-balanced between system and individuals, and the result is we see good repetitive team-play movements and works on the pitch, this helps improve players performances because they know what their teammates will do and help improve the chemistry even more quickly as a team, not just a bunch of few players.

In contrast, Ole put more trusts on the player's abilities and decision-makings, and therefore lets players to develop that chemistry on their own the more they play together. Too much random chance though, which is just not effective against organised side. The chemistry developed won't be consistent and it's more random and uncertain. Few players we have seen are improving their understandings but not so much with the others. This happened when the coach doesn't actively engineer or control it, as Ole does. Not saying he doesn't give his input, he did, clearly he did on the pitch, during trainings and in interviews we can know that. Unfortunately it's not good enough.

Yes.

And I do agree with you partially but I don’t think we’re always bad at pressing. We have also been brilliant at it when we need to be.

As for today’s game, I blame the players more than the coach. Ole had already mentioned after the previous game that Southampton are a good side and he obviously would have relayed that info down to the players to prepare them. It was the players who weren’t ready from get go and got punished. Pogba had an off day for most parts and he also cost us the first goal.

As far as being realistic goes, sure our road has been bumpy but it’s been more stable than usual since January and it’s evident that we’re now headed in the right direction. That’s as real as it gets for me. Totally satisfied as a United fan until the end of next season by which time I will judge Ole more factually.

As for the spoiler, not sure what you were trying to get at. Sorry it’s been a long day and it’s 1am now as I’m in Canada so maybe my brains not working like how it works, say, at 10am. Haha

 

[devilish]

If he makes it to CL qualification then he should stay. If he doesn't then he shouldn't stay. The guy was given ample funds to reach that goal.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

And Pep and Man City lost to these just 2 games ago.
They should sake Pep too.

Why do people get so defensive in here with Ole ? It’s impossible to have a rational conversation on the actual game.
Also big difference with City where they should’ve won & us where a draw was the right result

 

[Red Company]

A

Oh trust me, if there is a fanbase ignorant or blind enough then it is ours. You only have to look at the cult of Mourinho and fecking Moyes of all people.

Well I’m fairly new to the caf so I haven’t been around that long to experience the times you mentioned. But since I’ve been here, it’s been uncomfortable at times. Our fan base, although huge as a whole, appears quite divisive on here.

I guess it comes down to a lack of success, acceptable as per our standards, which has become frustrating.

 

[Withnail]

What about the other 18 matches we did not win this season (which are more than those we won)? Were they also 'one' bad games? When does 'one' bad game becomes 'one bad game too much'?

The point is we're still unbeaten and still in the hunt.

Did people actually expect us to win every game and not have an off day at all?

Are you all that naive? Football doesn't work that way.

How they respond to adversity will be telling but some people need to get a grip and calm down. There's a lot of hysteria on here.

 

[Rajma]

If he makes it to CL qualification then he should stay. If he doesn't then he shouldn't stay. The guy was given ample funds to reach that goal.

That’s the bottom line, isn’t it? Spending £200M and not delivering top4 is not acceptable, especially given it’s your second season with the team, basically.

 

[slored1]

A shame that we lost the points, but all in all, we're not the greatest team in the world yet and it was expected that we won't win every game until the end. Ole's got to start rotating players though, some players couldn't cope with the pressing yesterday and that cost us.

 

[RashysTekkers]

Why do people get so defensive in here with Ole ? It’s impossible to have a rational conversation on the actual game.
Also big difference with City where they should’ve won & us where a draw was the right result

They lost. So they got 0 points. We drew. 1 point gained. That is the difference.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

The point is we're still unbeaten and still in the hunt.

Did people actually expect us to win every game and not have an off day at all?

Are you all that naive? Football doesn't work that way.

How they respond to adversity will be telling but some people need to get a grip and calm down. There's a lot of hysteria on here.

Yes no one expected us to win every game & why did we have to win every game? Because the season as a whole from Ole just hasn’t been good enough. You can call it hysteria or you could call it looking rationally as a season as a whole.

If we don’t finish top 4 we need to have a long think internally about what went wrong & whether we can upgrade in players/manager for next season

 

[Withnail]

Yes no one expected us to win every game & why did we have to win every game? Because the season as a whole from Ole just hasn’t been good enough. You can call it hysteria or you could call it looking rationally as a season as a whole.

If we don’t finish top 4 we need to have a long think internally about what went wrong & whether we can upgrade in players/manager for next season

I'm not talking about things like what you've just posted but I've seen you do this before.

You reply to someone complaining about over the top posts with "what's wrong with saying 'insert reasonable post here' "

But come on. The whole place goes batshit for 24-48hrs after a poor performance/result with little balance or perspective so I should know not stay away.

 

[M16Red]

Thread is full of posters on an Olegenda.

Olegenda bingo.
Key words:
Elite manager
LVG
Molde
Cardiff
SAF
Before Feb

 

[ILC]

Color me surprised we're choking again when it all matters.

Ole didn't rotate, players are exhausted and now he can't rotate because every game is do or die.

If he doesn't qualify for CL he must go, no ifs and buts about it.

 

[devilish]

That’s the bottom line, isn’t it? Spending £200M and not delivering top4 is not acceptable, especially given it’s your second season with the team, basically.

I want Ole to succeed, I really do. However minimum standards are called that for a reason. If Ole doesn't make it to top 4 after spending so much money on a team which came 2nd not so many years ago then at least he MUST accept additional help. That means an experienced DOF to make sure we don't go ridiculous like spending 80m on a valid CB who can't run. The guy is inexperienced and he needs all the help he can get.

 

[RollieOle]

If he makes it to CL qualification then he should stay. If he doesn't then he shouldn't stay. The guy was given ample funds to reach that goal.

Crazy. Regardless of where we finish this season Ole will be here next season.