Fair enough. A club of United's size shouldn't go 3 seasons without a trophy IMO. Would love to see our boys win a trophy under Ole, we always seem to crumble in the most crucial moments and I'd like to see that change. That would give me the most belief.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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I don't think most are expecting Ole to be sacked now. I am sure he will be here start of next season.
From what I have seen so far I don't believe he can catch up.
1. His game management is very poor and has been poor for a long time. It has not improved.
2. His set pieces are the worst for a top club. This is not down to the players but entirely on him.
3. All the clubs have money now and hence all clubs have top players and a lot depends on the capability of the manager and his coaching staff.
4. His man management seems to be very good.
Jose took over LVG and won two cups and ended up in 2nd place but destroyed everything else. So it could be said it was a progress because he won trophies and got us 2nd. But he was toxic and never the one to build a team.
I don't think Poch is the answer. Yes he got Spurs into a CL Final but hasn't won anything yet.
I feel we are going to be in a rough ride for a very long time. I feel we should get someone like Nagelsmann before he gets hired by a big club.
From what I have seen so far I don't believe he can catch up.
1. His game management is very poor and has been poor for a long time. It has not improved.
2. His set pieces are the worst for a top club. This is not down to the players but entirely on him.
3. All the clubs have money now and hence all clubs have top players and a lot depends on the capability of the manager and his coaching staff.
4. His man management seems to be very good.
Jose took over LVG and won two cups and ended up in 2nd place but destroyed everything else. So it could be said it was a progress because he won trophies and got us 2nd. But he was toxic and never the one to build a team.
I don't think Poch is the answer. Yes he got Spurs into a CL Final but hasn't won anything yet.
I feel we are going to be in a rough ride for a very long time. I feel we should get someone like Nagelsmann before he gets hired by a big club.
Nor should he.
Ole was very lucky to survive the season. Our form was relegation form from November to New Year. No other manager would have been given as much patience and excuses as Ole has from our fans and sections of the media.
We simply can't afford to be playing catch up after a dozen games. There has been heavy investment in the squad already and we have to assume he will add to it over the coming weeks. Ole has no place to hide this season. He has to decide what his best squad is and start trusting the second string or we'll be out of gas by Christmas.
@He'sRaldo
i) We went with the tried and tested method when recruiting LVG and Mourinho, two renowned football managers with exceptional records to their name, and they failed dramatically, leaving the club in a weaker position in terms of squad quality and morale.
ii) Is it poor form or their general overall quality? I'd certainly opt for the latter as these backup who were once first-teamers) performed equally poorly when they were members of the first team, not only for Ole but Jose and LVG too. They just aren't good enough, not even to be squad players.
iii) Not sure what you mean here, exactly. Are you referring to his in-game management?
iiii) But we can though, and very likely will. There are very few European clubs who can compete with United in the transfer market, evidenced by the unchallenged run at Sancho this summer. Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Spurs would kill to have Sancho in their squad next year, but do not have the financial muscle to compete with United. City, the only club that can compete, are not involved for obvious reasons.
iiiii) This argument would have its merits pre-Bruno, but our form and subsequent rise up the table since his arrival saw us finish 3rd in the league and reach three cup semi-finals in the process. We've only lost twice this year, first after putting out a weakened side against Chelsea who had two extra days rest (we beat them comfortably many times during the season when all things were equal) and secondly against Sevilla, in a game we should have had won by the 60-minute mark. Poor finishing and defensive errors cost us the game, and you cannot hold the manager responsible for human error. That's just life.
We are playing the most attractive football post-SAF, we're scoring goals for fun (at least we were before our strikers started missing chances galore in the last 5-6 games), our defensive record is the best it's been for years, we have a wealth of talent bursting through the academy, the squad is all smiles under Ole as opposed to frowns under LVG and Jose, Matic, Mctominay, Fred, Martial and Rashford have all improved to varying degrees under Ole, we're one signing from having perhaps our most competitive midfield in a decade, and we're on the cusp of signing the brightest young talent in Europe (hopefully). There's probably tonnes of other positives I have neglected to mention too.
The progress we have made this season cannot be ignored and Ole has been at the helm through all of it.
i) We went with the tried and tested method when recruiting LVG and Mourinho, two renowned football managers with exceptional records to their name, and they failed dramatically, leaving the club in a weaker position in terms of squad quality and morale.
ii) Is it poor form or their general overall quality? I'd certainly opt for the latter as these backup who were once first-teamers) performed equally poorly when they were members of the first team, not only for Ole but Jose and LVG too. They just aren't good enough, not even to be squad players.
iii) Not sure what you mean here, exactly. Are you referring to his in-game management?
iiii) But we can though, and very likely will. There are very few European clubs who can compete with United in the transfer market, evidenced by the unchallenged run at Sancho this summer. Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Spurs would kill to have Sancho in their squad next year, but do not have the financial muscle to compete with United. City, the only club that can compete, are not involved for obvious reasons.
iiiii) This argument would have its merits pre-Bruno, but our form and subsequent rise up the table since his arrival saw us finish 3rd in the league and reach three cup semi-finals in the process. We've only lost twice this year, first after putting out a weakened side against Chelsea who had two extra days rest (we beat them comfortably many times during the season when all things were equal) and secondly against Sevilla, in a game we should have had won by the 60-minute mark. Poor finishing and defensive errors cost us the game, and you cannot hold the manager responsible for human error. That's just life.
We are playing the most attractive football post-SAF, we're scoring goals for fun (at least we were before our strikers started missing chances galore in the last 5-6 games), our defensive record is the best it's been for years, we have a wealth of talent bursting through the academy, the squad is all smiles under Ole as opposed to frowns under LVG and Jose, Matic, Mctominay, Fred, Martial and Rashford have all improved to varying degrees under Ole, we're one signing from having perhaps our most competitive midfield in a decade, and we're on the cusp of signing the brightest young talent in Europe (hopefully). There's probably tonnes of other positives I have neglected to mention too.
The progress we have made this season cannot be ignored and Ole has been at the helm through all of it.
and when will this rebuild be finished? Teams are always rebuilding themselves, surely there must be a point when we can start expecting results and trophies right? otherwise we will keep on the rebuild forever.
3 years for a rebuild seems like way too much time, for me managers should be rated since their first season and if given enough results then given another one. I think next season Ole must give results otherwise he should be sacked, but there's a narrative here, impulsed by the media, that Ole must be assured lots of time and patiente since "he's rebuilding" which I dont agree with.
He will though cause everybody will going it was like this last year but we still made top 4...
Don't get me wrong I'd love a Cup win but there can be a lot of luck involved.
Not if there aren't a ridiculous amount of injuries or some other mitigating factor there won't. Mid table with the current team isn't going to fly.
He has to figure out how to sustain good performances. The first team plays itself to exhaustion in a dozen matches before the streak ends.
Consider the position the club was in after Jose; 7th in the league and falling, the squad underperforming, morale at rock bottom, and several key players wanting out of the club. To say it was a disastrous position is the understatement of the century.
The next manager, whether that be Ole, Poch, or Damien Lewis, was always going to be given an extended period of time to set the wrongs right. You can't do that within a single year. After arriving at the club, Ole said he needed 9 new players minimum to fix the squad. He's not even halfway there yet.
Ole is in this for the long haul.
Holds weight in what way, exactly?
Do you think Pep was a candidate for top clubs all over Europe back in the day because of his grand work with Barca's B-team? Zidane? His masterful management prior to the point of getting the big job at Real? Lampard? Nothing to do with his past as a player - he just happened to be the number one candidate, objectively?
Ole got the gig because of his United connection - of course, everyone knows this. Just like the others got their gigs based on their connection to the clubs in question. It's hardly unprecedented - it happens all the time, has happened for donkey's years.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Just like hiring managers based on other criteria - there's no set formula which guarantees success, it depends on the individual.
Big season next year for Ole and with Chelsea getting stronger also. We have to recruit and recruit well in the summer and then we need a strong start.
Like I said there's good enough reason to be in either stance, or to be undecided. Right now on the balance of it, I'd say he has to prove a lot more next season as a last chance.
Typically the reason one would go with a relatively unproven (at the highest level) manager is the hopes of striking gold. Pep and Zidane were obviously gold from the off, and Woodward and the fans were hoping we had found something similar with Ole after the unbeaten run. After all, the vibe at that time was that the players were mismanaged by Jose and Ole didn't need to do much to get their performances going. However, fast forward a year and a half later and we're still talking about huge sums of money (after previous huge spending) with no real guarantee of challenging, so it's safe to say our initial perception was off.
Instead of engaging with sunk cost, we should take one more season to see if there is indeed hidden gold in Ole, even if it needs huge money to be unleashed. And if he can't win anything, I think it's best to cut our losses. Ole wasn't as good as we initially thought he'd be, no hard feelings. But if he does win, or come very close to winning save for circumstances completely beyond his control, then we keep him.
Unfortunately, the bar needs to be set higher for Ole than for a more proven manager, since Ole has a lot more to prove. Managers like Pep and Zidane when they were rookies endured the same and came out on the other end flawlessly. Ole hasn't thus far. But like I said, a lot can happen in football so you never know what he'll come up with next season.
Depends on the context. At that point, we were without Pogba, Bruno, McTominay and Martial and our frontline was Rashford, Lingard, James, Mata and Pereira which is of midtable quality and that's being generous. Unless we have some serious injury crisis again, absolutely no one will tolerate us being midtable next season and they shouldn't.
I agree the club was in free fall when Mourinho left it, but the same squad was 2nd the year before. So lets not paint it as if being 7th was somekind of normal, I agree with the next manager needing a extented period, but how long is an extended period? I think 18 months is a fair amount of time. He's had 4 windows already, counting this one, so I think its fair that this next season we start demanding results. Him wanting 9 players I dont think he said it, at least not publicy. Anyway that shouldnt be a way to meassure a manager imagine the manager asking for 15 new players and until he gets them then he can be judged, nonsense.
I dont think if by next year we are in the same position the argument of "the rebuild" will be a valid one. He needs to deliver, we needed to be patiente and we have been now its time for results.
And about the experienced managers thing. I don't think we should give up on hiring top managers because of a sample size of 2. They are top managers for a reason, we shouldn't shy away from them as long as they fit well with the club.
Expectations for next season are directly related to the success or failure of this summer's transfer window. Should we bring in Sancho and Grealish, the board will be expecting a title challenge, meaning second or a close run third position in the league will be the bare minimum requirement for Ole to maintain his position. They won't tolerate another backward step.
The awful standard of the league which meant that 3rd place had a low points requirement
Your reply doesn’t make any sense
I agree, on the other hand if we dont get good players we can expect the goal being top 4 again.
Funny that. 30 year old men on here couldn’t see it. Put your hands up and say you believed sacking Jose and brining in Ole was a good idea right when he was at his final tether?
To answer your final point. Fans will back him no matter what. It’s proven.
Let me put this another way, would you consider the work Ole is doing at the club right now harmful to its future?
If you do, then just ignore the next sentence, but If not, would you allow him the time to build a healthy foundation for a future manager with more experienced and the credentials to take advantage of?
I don’t think the have a world class cdm
That’s 4 players for me
and like I said it’s a squad not a 11 you’ve just made my point.
pogba matic Bruno martial for me are class players and he was given the chance to sign a wc cb and opted for Maguire.
they walked away with the league and city walked away from the rest. Pools problem was similar to ours in Europe when we’d walk the league then not be able to turn it on in Europe.
it’s going to take time to sign WC players, and money I don’t think the glazier are prepared to pay, you’d need oil money for ole to achieve
anyway, let’s hope the board see that and back him so we can have a manager that has a great history with the club given the funds to build a top top team
I agree with all of this
No you pulled some bullshit number out of your ass to prove some bullshit point. We spent 30m back when we signed Rio Ferdinand, that was a world record fee back then, do you feel that was money well spent? Does that make SAF a poor manager? All managers spend insane amount of money, at the end of the day all that matters is what they have to show for the money they spent. Klopp has a CL and a title, Guardiola has league titles. So yes their money was well spent.So you've proved you're clueless on the point you made and then you pivot to well even if they did invest massive amounts of money it was worth it? Ffs
Yes sacking Jose and bringing in Ole was a correct decision and so far Ole has proven it has been a correct decision. Whether he continues proving that decision to be correct, only time will tell.
Yes they spend money to buy good players but they are still making them play well and are winning titles. We overpay for mediocre and good players and end up making them just average, thats the difference between having good and poor managers.
Our tactics against big teams haven't changed much, it's still park the bus and counter but at least OGS has the presence of mind to use Rashford and Martial on the counter instead of hoofing it long to a lump like Lukaku. Mctominay has been good, Martial is returning to his best, Rashford still blows hot and cold. These are marginal improvements, anyway me arguing to death isn't gonna change the fact that OGS will be the manager next season but all I see is another season wasted. One good thing is Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea have made questionable managerial choices too, so there is a chance of us finishing third again.
That's a very good question.
The answer is no. Ole has been very good at sorting out where we went wrong with Mourinho, and that's a big argument for keeping him given our seemingly directionless leadership. I said it's a very good question because I often ask the follow up question 'if Ole isn't good enough, when do we intend to let him go?'
Think of Pochettinno. He set a very good foundation for Spurs, but in the end it was all a waste because he couldn't win anything. Wenger the same, he was all about achieving top 4 and building for the future, but none of that mattered at the end of the day as he wasn't the best manager in the league so he couldn't win the title and his best players left.
Now I would want Ole to leave a healthy foundation, but I also don't want that window to be squandered. In order to do so, we have to be smart in assessing his ceiling, and figure out when to let go should the need arise. That to me is the crux of these discussions. I didn't want Ole to go earlier because I didn't think he had hit his ceiling yet but I think he has now, and it doesn't look like it's enough to compete with the best in England.
So to answer your question, my most pressing concern is that the good position we're in shouldn't be squandered, or else we'll be looking at another expensive rebuild and Ole's work wasted. Being the manager credited with setting the foundations for a league win is a big deal, but Ole could even lose out on that if we don't act decisively and he can't exceed his ceiling.
How would you answer the question of if Ole isn't good enough, when do we intend to let him go? And how? Proactively or reactively?
That's not what you were saying so wind your neck in with the claims of bullshit numbers and bullshit points.
This is what you said:
Another poster quoted an approximate figure for what they'd each spent.
If you want to look up what's been spent its all on transfermkt
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-liverpool/alletransfers/verein/31
You then said that was nonsense and anyway it was well spent.
So I really don't have a clue what you're on about at this stage
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If the board really expected a title push on the back of "only" signing Sancho and Grealish this summer, they should have their heads examined. Bar some miracle season from the academy to compensate for signings, we need to strengthen many more positions throughout the squad, before we anyone could reasonably consider us relevant for big trophies. Even if we signed the numbers and the quality required, chances are it would take at least a season for players to both adapt to the league and gell as a unit, and the competion is still quite strong. Even if Liverpool should dip in form next season, given their season having many characteristics of a large statistical outlier.
I think He'sRaldo outlined the question marks surrounding Ole quite well, so I won't mention them again. For me he still appears quite short of what I consider a sufficient manager for United, even if I'd love him to be up for the task for obvious, sentimental reasons. I will mention one thing though, that I think makes a big difference to building a squad going forward, where I feel like Ole does not do us many favors. Managers are incredibly important for selling the vision of a club plus the expected success of a big project like the one at United. I really have my doubts whether top players and talents put much stock in a call from Ole or Woodward, when planning their futures. Can we get a Maguire? Sure, he knew he would likely be able to basically roll up here and grab the captaincy. Talents at the level of Wan-Bissaka, who want to play? Ole has shown his laudable commitment to youth on a consistent basis.
But once we enter the bracket of world class talent (i.e. Sancho) and established top names, I suspect a lot of them would not be terribly impressed by the prospect of United. Surely our reputation has suffered significantly following the constant debacle of our transfer "strategy" in the last six years. And a manager like Ole, who is a without a doubt a complete nobody in the eyes of many players, unlike other former players-turned-managers like Zidane, Simeone or even someone as untested as Pirlo who can probably swing a good amount of players in their favor just by their name, not to mention the clubs they're at. The idea of being coached by managers with a stellar track record and industry reputation such as Klopp or Guardiola will attract almost everyone. Ole's best selling point in my opinion is his apparent principles of giving flair players freedom to express themselves, and being a pretty nice boss overall. In a cut-throat environment, where the best normally have lots of suitors, are hungry to learn and be the best, unfortunately I see United falling quite short of tantalizing with Ole at the helm.
That doesn't mean it's impossible someone like Sancho comes this summer, just that I doubt playing for Ole will be a big part of the attraction.
This is why Solskjaer won't have a long term tenure here, we aren't challenging but are already seeing the evidence of his managerial limitations. I think this idea that people have of our club having one man to reign is largely overblown. Sir Alex represents a very small margin of elite managers able to redefine the motivation season after season at the highest level. Football has been around since the late 1800's and he's the only manager to do this successfully. We most likely won't see it again.
I'll take Ole for what he is and that's a stop gap to give us balance and a foundation for another manager to further bring us forward
Our board wants CL football. That is it. Transfer window after we finished 2nd is the best proof. Your team finished 2nd and your manager (lets put aside Jose hate here) tells you that he needs 3,4 players for title challenge. He got Dalot and Fred.
Glazers will invest enough for top4. But not more than that.
I really want to know what people are seeing in Ole that suggests that he can't/won't win a title here? Everyone keeps saying that he won't win the title with us and this is how far he can take us, but what makes you think so?
And before you give those lazy arguments I'll just address each of them right now:
And before you give those lazy arguments I'll just address each of them right now:
- He isn't good tactically
- Well, a manager who has consistently performed well against top sides- can't be said to be poor tactically. How can one justify the logic behind a shit manager beating the likes of Pep thrice, drawing with Pool in that form, beating Chelsea thrice, beating a PSG side managed by Tuchel over 2 legs, beating sides managed by Poch and Mou! If anything, I'd say tactically he's probably better than atleast a few of the managers listed above
- He relies on individual brilliance
- Again, it's one of those arguments that has no legs. Which manager doesn't rely on brilliance of few of their players? Pool were nowhere near being title contenders before VVD, barely getting into top 4 before Salah. Remove KDB and Aguero and maybe Laporte from that City side and I doubt they'll be any good. Bruno has just accelerated the transition, as he's helping us break down low blocks- something AP and Lingard are poor at. Our attack looks more coherent now because the players are making runs as Bruno has been able to find their runs
- His in game management is poor
- Well, he doesn't have faith in the subs to turn the game around, and one can see why. Mata is arguably the only guy you can put on if you're trailing and even he is limited in what he can do. We lack players with flair but also a good end product, with that X-factor required to turn games around.
- As far as coming back from losing positions is concerned, only 5 teams have better record than us (https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/pre...tbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2019/spiele/alle/plus/1)
- Among them is City, who have gotten something out of the game after falling back in just 4 of their 13 games, compared to ours 7/17
Sorry I didn't realize that someone else quoted those numbers since you replied to this point I thought that was you.
My point was a good manager identifies players that fit his profile and does spend money(in some cases huge sums of money) and makes it a successful transfer and that translates to titles. Whereas poor managers who don't really have a vision try to buy and accomodate big names hoping they pull something out of the bag to compensate for a lack of coaching. Case in point, is Maguire really that much of an upgrade over Smalling? But look how VVD, Laporte have transformed (in city's case made it much better) the defences of Liverpool and City.
Fair enough so.
I really don't think Ole is going for big names purely for big names sake if that was your point?
We've spent a fair but I feel that overall the players have mostly been an upgrade on what we had and have improved the team or are more suited to Ole's style of play
He clearly has an eye for a player and they've all been good buys apart from James who was a bit of a punt and may still come good.
In relation to Maguire, I think he is a better player than Smalling and our defense has been much better this season than last season.
I've seen people complain we spent a fortune on defenders but our goals conceded is the lowest apart from City and Liverpool (36 this year compared to 54 last year) and that's hardly a coincidence.
With the players we have available now and hopefully a couple of additions we should definitely score more goals next year to go with the improvement in defence so there's lots of reasons to be cheerful going into next season.
So every team in the Premier League except for 2 are terrible teams then, that is what you are implying.
Bruno Fernandes?
1. He doesn't know how to break down teams who defend. It's easier to play against teams who plays open football because the space is available to attack. It's much more difficult to design plays to open up teams.
2. Yes individual brilliance is used too but football is a team game and if the team is gelled and drilled well they would beat teams that are slightly better individually.
3. His game management is poor not because he doesn't have better players to bring on. Most teams bench is always worse than the starting 11. In all honesty we are not talking about Sunday league players on the bench. When we need fresh legs, yes players need to run and when they are exhausted they cannot run that much, then it's time to bring the changes. When the game plan is not working and a variation is needed then he needs to bring players on no matter how bad they are compared to the starting 11.
He doesn't know how to coach corners. When was the last time we scored from a corner? When was the last time we had a neat post corner flick?
His man management may be good but his game management is bad.
He has never been a top coach and there are much better coaches than him obviously.
What he has got for him going is that he was at United for a long time so he knows the club.
That could be said about any manager starting with I got Manz relegated and walked out and them, got lucky at BD when he went there due to BM starting a rebuild, they finished it and look, he walked out on BD half way through a contract when he knew he couldn't beat them.
Saint pep, well he took over a team on par or better than the famous Ac side of the late 80's early 90's, took over BM when they had just done the treble and couldn't get them to a semi and continues that trend even after spending 650 million.
And less we forget the new Saint, pouch who left his team in Spain rooted to the bottom 9 points off safety and walked, his spurs record, wow he couldn't get pass LCFC to win a title, and won what, so what if they played nice footie AT times, given what he had, he easily should have won a league cup even, but no nothing.
Next summer if he get his targets is when it be fair to judge Ole and not after one full year, as so called "top coaches" where here in LVG and Jose and they were failures.And please don't reply with they won the Fa cup or uefa cup as the FA is a joke since 2000 when we didn't defend it and no one takes it seriously and the other thing was, what did our fans called it in 01 when liverpool won it, ah yet, worthless little cup.
You have not been watching games this season
1. It was a case when we had to rely on AP/ Lingard. Think we've scored 2nd most number of goals in the league since Bruno cam in.
2. So, what's your point here
3. Understandable really when you consider the drop in quality. He doesn't trust his subs to turn a game around, and when you do look at the options on the bench, there aren't many who can change the game. As far as fresh legs argument is concerned, we really haven't dropped as many points from winning positions as many as you're thinking of. And we scored against Chelsea last. Plus, not scoring from corners enough is not a reason to sack a manager.
Again game management is bad needs to be backed by data. I pointed out that we have the 5th/6th best record in the league in terms of comebacks.
It's a poor argument. He has never been a top coach does not imply that he will never be a top coach. It's like saying, "X hasn't been a CEO so he can't ever become a good CEO"
So? Knowing the club and what they stand for is a pretty important job in today's era. All these top clubs - RM, Barca, Juve, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. aren't fools that they're hiring their ex-players for the job. These managers are more likely to earn respect, wouldn't take short term decisions and will actually value the traditions of the club.
The issue with Ole Outers is that you guys are pretty much relying on a gut feeling rather than actual data. Actual data presents a picture that we've progressed, it shows that there's an actual transition going on, and that his in game management is pretty decent as well
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