Xabi Alonso: Bayer Leverkusen manager - Bundesliga Dinner Plate Winner

[Zehner]

Can someone explain why Tuchel is being so heavily criticized? This is his first season with BM and they are currently doing better than last year (points-wise), where they won the league. I would also say they are favorites to go through in CL. It's not like it's his fault that Leverkusen are having a miracle season.

It's their ambition. The club is always in turmoil if they aren't leading the table. That usually means they go up a gear or two and win the lead back quickly. This time, they did that as well IMO (as evidenced by their fairly great points total) but since we are having a miracle season, it seems that the ambition is becoming toxic and they attack each other. Personally, I think Tuchel is already finished since he succumbed to the pressure and apparently ruined his relationship with the team already. Which is pretty good for us I think since Tuchel had them performing to a much higher standard than they achieved over the last seasons - especially considering that the squad was insanely thin in the first half of the season and is now paying tribute to it with lots of injuries.

So essentially, Tuchel is finished, Alonso doesn't seem to be available and every other candidate is much worse. I think they have a rough time ahead of them.

 

[Zehner]

I actually don't think we know that for sure now. If not for Dortmund's last minute bottle job Bayern would have won nothing last season as well and likely won't win anything this season. They lost their grip on the domestic cup years ago and they don't have that core of experienced players who grew up together anymore that carried them from van Gaal to Guardiola (with the last of them having their big final run under Flick).

Their board as well isn't smoothly operating and their bounce back after last season was quit limited. I also do wonder if it has an effect on the squad that they signed players from known bottlers (Kane and Dier from Spurs, Guerreiro from Dortmund).

Overall it currently feels to me more like we are entering a phase like the 2000s again, when Bayern still won most titles, but rarely even two in a row.

Bayern need a new LvG and a new squad core. They have too many passengers and players who think they are better than they actually are (Kimmich!) and their actual leaders who feel like "classic" Bayern players are aging (Neuer, Müller). Of the young players only Tel and at least sometimes Musiala gives me the real "Bayern vibes", but that's just a feeling.

Even yesterday it was Tel who brute forced the ball through the box (which Kane could then score), after Kane wasted other opportunities and generally didn't look great. Not enough grit, determination and leadership in some players, to little of a calm head in other players, Bayern just lack players who know how to pace their games.

I was speaking about the image I agree that things aren't looking good for Bayern. But assuming they could correct it by signing Alonso and maybe even a couple of key players such as Wirtz, Frimpong or Palacios, it would be a different case. My point was rather that they're trying to do it and that this would be a huge blow for the attractiveness of the league. Domestically as well but especially internationally.

 

[stefan92]

Can someone explain why Tuchel is being so heavily criticized? This is his first season with BM and they are currently doing better than last year (points-wise), where they won the league. I would also say they are favorites to go through in CL. It's not like it's his fault that Leverkusen are having a miracle season.

Three losses in a row (meaning going into the second leg in the CL with a disadvantage and probably losing the chance to win the league).
Exited the cup against a third league team (Saarbrücken).
Lost the Supercup against Leipzig.
Overall bad performances despite racking up points
Worst CL group stage in years.
Last season only little visible improvement after taking over, exiting cup and CL and having to rely on a Dortmund meltdown to win the league.

The only thing he has going for him is the amount of points in the league. That's just not edging over all the negatives.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Just hope he doesn't go to Liverpool, from the little I've seen his system would adapt perfectly to their squad. It would be a shame after all this years of Klopp they just happen to land another rock and roll manager, let them have a bump or two before ffs.

 

[adexkola]

If you ask me, yes. I mean, why would you watch the Bundesliga as an international fan? You know who's going to win the league beforehand anyway and if by miracle another team actually manages to beat them once every 10 years or so, you better don't get invested because the protagonists will end up in a Bayern shirt eventually anyway. Whether or not that's true, this brand image dates back to them picking apart Klopp's title winning Dortmund side as well as Leverkusen's 'almost treble' team as well as many smaller examples along the way (Neuer, Nagelsmann, etc.) and is still prevalent as evidenced by how often it is brought up by users in here mocking the Bundesliga.

Imagine the reactions if another team wins the league for the first time in 11 years and then they sign the coach (and maybe even some players) of that team again. How are you supposed to sell such a crap product to an international audience?

I'm not saying you are wrong here, but the conclusion is crazy; a team should act against their immediate interests of having competent coaching, in order to make the league more popular (a move that may not even work)... also let's Leverkusen off the hook in terms of doing everything to keep Alonso in doors

Again, you're not wrong, but it's like the reverse prisoners dilemma here, you won't snitch on your fellow prisoner, but he is incentivized to snitch on you, leaving you in a worse state. Or some modification of that.

 

[Dumbstar]

It's their ambition. The club is always in turmoil if they aren't leading the table. That usually means they go up a gear or two and win the lead back quickly. This time, they did that as well IMO (as evidenced by their fairly great points total) but since we are having a miracle season, it seems that the ambition is becoming toxic and they attack each other. Personally, I think Tuchel is already finished since he succumbed to the pressure and apparently ruined his relationship with the team already. Which is pretty good for us I think since Tuchel had them performing to a much higher standard than they achieved over the last seasons - especially considering that the squad was insanely thin in the first half of the season and is now paying tribute to it with lots of injuries.

So essentially, Tuchel is finished, Alonso doesn't seem to be available and every other candidate is much worse. I think they have a rough time ahead of them.

Shouldn't Bayern be going back for Hier Flick?

 

[stefan92]

Shouldn't Bayern be going back for Hier Flick?

We just have to assume that Jupp Heynckes (or his wife?) ripped the phone cord out of the wall and smashed his mobile phone to pieces as well, otherwise they probably would have presented him as an interim again.

I doubt Flick will reach that status for them, considering that he didn't really leave on good terms but more or less forced his way out.

 

[Dumbstar]

We just have to assume that Jupp Heynckes (or his wife?) ripped the phone cord out of the wall and smashed his mobile phone to pieces as well, otherwise they probably would have presented him as an interim again.

I doubt Flick will reach that status for them, considering that he didn't really leave on good terms but more or less forced his way out.

Fair enough, wasn't quite sure of the history. Shame they can't make up, maybe they will. Flick did do an outstanding job for them as manager. With Xabi gone (to wherever) it leaves him a free path to attempt another treble (after raiding Bayer for their best talent obviously).

 

[Semper Fudge]

And if he goes to Liverpool, how much will you cry? Just asking to balance things out.

You're a strange guy.

 

[Zehner]

I'm not saying you are wrong here, but the conclusion is crazy; a team should act against their immediate interests of having competent coaching, in order to make the league more popular (a move that may not even work)... also let's Leverkusen off the hook in terms of doing everything to keep Alonso in doors

Again, you're not wrong, but it's like the reverse prisoners dilemma here, you won't snitch on your fellow prisoner, but he is incentivized to snitch on you, leaving you in a worse state. Or some modification of that.

You mentioned the reverse prisoners dilemma but I think a more accurate example would be Captain Ahab and Moby Dick They need domestic rivalries to flourish both economically and on the sporting side of things.

I mean, let's approach it from another direction and imagine for some reason Real would suddenly be able to raid Barcelon every season. Do you think it would be in their best interest to do it to a degree that renders the clasicos boring? Sacrifice the most iconic derby in the world for short term success?

Essentially, that's what Bayern has been doing. But in the end, football sells attention and you sell attention by telling stories and sport stories live from rivalries and competition.

 

[horsechoker]

You're a strange guy.

For you

 

[adexkola]

You mentioned the reverse prisoners dilemma but I think a more accurate example would be Captain Ahab and Moby Dick They need domestic rivalries to flourish both economically and on the sporting side of things.

I mean, let's approach it from another direction and imagine for some reason Real would suddenly be able to raid Barcelon every season. Do you think it would be in their best interest to do it to a degree that renders the clasicos boring? Sacrifice the most iconic derby in the world for short term success?

Essentially, that's what Bayern has been doing. But in the end, football sells attention and you sell attention by telling stories and sport stories live from rivalries and competition.

I think Real would raid Barcelona. They would not decline out of a sense of altruism. They would take as many players as they could. Because although that would be detrimental (in theory), they'd be up to their eyeballs in trophies so much they wouldn't give a feck.

It wouldn't be in their long term interest to see El Classico become a useless game but I think by the time that impacts them Perez would be dead so feck it, apre moi, le deluge

This is where the uselessness of the Bundesliga comes in, because they as the neutral party should be the one trying to raise the competitive level of the league

 

[izec]

There is no way he is going to Bayern this summer. Either he stays for another year or Liverpool.

It would be a weird thing to do. He will have a chance to manage them in the future at some point.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I don't see why he'd go to Bayern, but it is less of a risk than following Klopp.

 

[weetee]

There is no way he is going to Bayern this summer. Either he stays for another year or Liverpool.

What about Madrid? I can see it actually. Let him win the German double 100% convincingly with Ancelotti going off to semi retirement as a NT coach someplace nice..present him and Mbappé in their new stadium: great show!

 

[weetee]

I don't see why he'd go to Bayern, but it is less of a risk than following Klopp.

If Pool wins the title I can still see it. The squad is well balanced already, also age wise I guess but with Salah likely gone and VVD potentially soonish too that leaves a lot of leeway to re-shape the squad. If he‘s convinced of himself as a very good manager -and why wouldn‘t he - I can see that being a very attractive option.

 

[Zehner]

I think Real would raid Barcelona. They would not decline out of a sense of altruism. They would take as many players as they could. Because although that would be detrimental (in theory), they'd be up to their eyeballs in trophies so much they wouldn't give a feck.

It wouldn't be in their long term interest to see El Classico become a useless game but I think by the time that impacts them Perez would be dead so feck it, apre moi, le deluge

This is where the uselessness of the Bundesliga comes in, because they as the neutral party should be the one trying to raise the competitive level of the league

Maybe Real would do it, maybe not but in the end, it would come back to bite them if they did. The same way, the Bundesliga has no chance to establish itself as a league that's interesting enough for international audiences as long as it is perceived as a training camp for Bayern Munich players.

What about Madrid? I can see it actually. Let him win the German double 100% convincingly with Ancelotti going off to semi retirement as a NT coach someplace nice..present him and Mbappé in their new stadium: great show!

The rumours last year seemed pretty concrete. I think it is no coincidence that both Ancelotti's and Alonso's contract run until 2026. I assume Alonso first wanted to become more experienced before taking over a club as big as Real Madrid. He'll stay until 2025, with a bit of luck 2026, and then take over Madrid if he doesn't feck up with us

 

[Maluco]

I think Bayern are desperate and know they need to get the next appointment right.

I think he will be promised real backing and the ability to shape the squad. He has connections to the club and it would be the opportunity to play his brand of football with the very best players in the league.

I think he is a cert to go there and they will pull out all the stops. He will see the potential in that Bayern squad and he will want to see what he can make of it.

 

[HTG]

We offered him a job as sporting director right after he finished his career. Back then he declined, because he wanted to gain some more experience before moving to a big club. So I think it’s pretty obvious we will always look at him, when we need a new coach and I think he will consider us. Everything else is too difficult to predict for me. But I would be surprised if he didn’t coach us at some point.

 

[Acheron]

There is no way he is going to Bayern this summer. Either he stays for another year or Liverpool.

It would be a weird thing to do. He will have a chance to manage them in the future at some point.

Yup it wouldn't make sense to go to them, specially if he wins the league with Leverkusen. If any he would like to build on that success and stay another season at Bayer Leverkusen.

 

[2 man midfield]

Don Carlo is off this summer, isn’t he? He’s gonna have his pick of the top jobs at this rate

 

[stefan92]

Don Carlo is off this summer, isn’t he? He’s gonna have his pick of the top jobs at this rate

He extented until 2026. Just like Alonso did...

 

[doomy20]

Guy will crown a once in a lifetime season with Leverkusen winning the title and then succeed Klopp, taking over the Premier League champion

 

[Gene Loblaw]

He has to take the Real Madrid job right? Isn't Ancelotti leaving after this season?

That's the easiest instant winner and there's no career downside if you lose there since every big club understands that it can be a managerial circus. If he fails there, there's no damage to his reputation and he easily fall back into the Liverpool job after.

If he fails at Bayern or Liverpool, for better or worse, I feel like his reputation takes a bit of a hit at those

 

[RedRocket9908]

Guy will crown a once in a lifetime season with Leverkusen winning the title and then succeed Klopp, taking over the Premier League champion

I honestly dont understand why anyone thinks he should leave Leverkusen for Liverpool, he would be daft to when Liverpool cant offer him anything Leverkusen wont have next season.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

He has to take the Real Madrid job right? Isn't Ancelotti leaving after this season?

That's the easiest instant winner and there's no career downside if you lose there since every big club understands that it can be a managerial circus. If he fails there, there's no damage to his reputation and he easily fall back into the Liverpool job after.

If he fails at Bayern or Liverpool, for better or worse, I feel like his reputation takes a bit of a hit at those

Ancelotti is contracted until 2026. Not that Real Madrid contracts mean much.

 

[Gene Loblaw]

Ancelotti is contracted until 2026. Not that Real Madrid contracts mean much.

maybe things have changed or I'm misremembering, but I thought he announced before this season that he was leaving in the summer. And reports were that he was taking over the brazil nt job. If that's changed, my bad

 

[njred]

I honestly dont understand why anyone thinks he should leave Leverkusen for Liverpool, he would be daft to when Liverpool cant offer him anything Leverkusen wont have next season.

He played for Liverpool and they are a much bigger team. Pretty simple

 

[Pascal Quiff]

I honestly dont understand why anyone thinks he should leave Leverkusen for Liverpool, he would be daft to when Liverpool cant offer him anything Leverkusen wont have next season.

You could apply this to any club though...Bayern, Real, United, PSG...

 

[RedRocket9908]

He played for Liverpool and they are a much bigger team. Pretty simple

He also played for FC Barern and they are a bigger club than Liverpool

 

[kaiser1]

If you ask me, yes. I mean, why would you watch the Bundesliga as an international fan? You know who's going to win the league beforehand anyway and if by miracle another team actually manages to beat them once every 10 years or so, you better don't get invested because the protagonists will end up in a Bayern shirt eventually anyway. Whether or not that's true, this brand image dates back to them picking apart Klopp's title winning Dortmund side as well as Leverkusen's 'almost treble' team as well as many smaller examples along the way (Neuer, Nagelsmann, etc.) and is still prevalent as evidenced by how often it is brought up by users in here mocking the Bundesliga.

Imagine the reactions if another team wins the league for the first time in 11 years and then they sign the coach (and maybe even some players) of that team again. How are you supposed to sell such a crap product to an international audience?

When Bundesliga between 2002 to 09 had many change of champions from Dortmund to Bremen to Stuttgart to Wolfsburg, did these international fans watch it?
When French league had different winners between 2007 and 13 did these international fans watch it?

Man city has won 3 in a row, maybe 4 by May, did it stop the international fans from watching? In the same time Serie A has had 4 different winners. Beyond the regular Serie A fans and some international fans who just look up wiki and say "cool" before they switch back to watch City pip Liverpool for their 4th title in a row

What attracts fans to watch a league IMO is the star players/managers in it, I bet more people watched French league when Zlatan, Cavani Neymar and Mbape played and won every season than when Bordeaux Lille and Montpellier won it. Probably half the posters here didn't recall Montpellier winning the French league nor anyone in that team

 

[kaiser1]

I think Real would raid Barcelona. They would not decline out of a sense of altruism. They would take as many players as they could. Because although that would be detrimental (in theory), they'd be up to their eyeballs in trophies so much they wouldn't give a feck.

It wouldn't be in their long term interest to see El Classico become a useless game but I think by the time that impacts them Perez would be dead so feck it, apre moi, le deluge

This is where the uselessness of the Bundesliga comes in, because they as the neutral party should be the one trying to raise the competitive level of the league

And you know what will happen when Bayern deliberately brings themselves to the level of other Buli teams, they all get weaker in Europe and get knocked out of CL group stages or max 2nd round regularly, then it becomes a competitive but vastly inferior league maybe Georgian or Latvian. Basically a league no one will care about who wins or who plays in it

@Zehner E.g Since Messi and Ronaldo left La Liga there has been a slight loss of interest from international fans. even though the last 3 titles have been shared around Athetico, Barcelona Madrid and now Girona in the race

Fans seemed to prefer it when Barcelona won 8 titles in one decade 2008 to 2019 and Madrid won 2

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'm not saying you are wrong here, but the conclusion is crazy; a team should act against their immediate interests of having competent coaching

I think this argument is not so strong when we're talking about a manager that has 1 year of experience at the top level.

 

[kaiser1]

I think this argument is not so strong when we're talking about a manager that has 1 year of experience at the top level.

After the first 12months of Pep as a senior manager almost 95% of teams in Europe will sack their coaches for him. Actually by March 2009 when Barcelona played Bayern, everyone n Bayern FO was willing to give him the keys to Munich just to have him implement his football
I'm not saying Xabi is Pep level yet but if he continues like this and wins a treble for Leverkusen this season, he might be worth the punt by top clubs

 

[hasanejaz88]

When Bundesliga between 2002 to 09 had many change of champions from Dortmund to Bremen to Stuttgart to Wolfsburg, did these international fans watch it?
When French league had different winners between 2007 and 13 did these international fans watch it?

Man city has won 3 in a row, maybe 4 by May, did it stop the international fans from watching? In the same time Serie A has had 4 different winners. Beyond the regular Serie A fans and some international fans who just look up wiki and say "cool" before they switch back to watch City pip Liverpool for their 4th title in a row

What attracts fans to watch a league IMO is the star players in it, I bet more people watched French league when Zlatan, Cavani Neymar and Mbape played and won every season than when Bordeaux Lille and Montpellier won it

Exactly, what attracts international fans are star players/managers and also success in Europe. BL took a massive jump in popularity we had our first all German UCL final and then Bayern followed up with signing Pep.

In fact, I think one reason there is more interest in Leverkusen's achievements is because it's Alonso who is managing them, who was a well known player and played in England and Spain. If it were a common German manager I don't think there would be as much hype, Klopp got popular amongst fans outside of Germany after his UCL run, not necessarily winning the BL twice.

 

[njred]

He also played for FC Barern and they are a bigger club than Liverpool

Debatable. Both are European giants who have no equals in their own countries as far as European success. Bayern are by themselves in Germany with all those leagues whereas Liverpool have united to split the league titles. But at the moment I would say you would see more Liverpool shirts than Bayern shirts worldwide. Plus he loves Liverpool.

 

[adexkola]

I think this argument is not so strong when we're talking about a manager that has 1 year of experience at the top level.

Agreed. For what it's worth I'd take the over on Alonso's prospects as a manager based on what we have seen so far

 

[Zehner]

When Bundesliga between 2002 to 09 had many change of champions from Dortmund to Bremen to Stuttgart to Wolfsburg, did these international fans watch it?
When French league had different winners between 2007 and 13 did these international fans watch it?

Man city has won 3 in a row, maybe 4 by May, did it stop the international fans from watching? In the same time Serie A has had 4 different winners. Beyond the regular Serie A fans and some international fans who just look up wiki and say "cool" before they switch back to watch City pip Liverpool for their 4th title in a row

What attracts fans to watch a league IMO is the star players/managers in it, I bet more people watched French league when Zlatan, Cavani Neymar and Mbape played and won every season than when Bordeaux Lille and Montpellier won it. Probably half the posters here didn't recall Montpellier winning the French league nor anyone in that team

The world wasn't as globalized and connected in the 00s. When Dortmund was a real challenger for Bayern, the international interest peaked and if Bayern didn't decide to make a mockery out of the competition by taking Dortmund's three best players away from them, that trend would have continued. As said, the narrative of the Bundesliga is a pretty shitty one.

And you know what will happen when Bayern deliberately brings themselves to the level of other Buli teams, they all get weaker in Europe and get knocked out of CL group stages or max 2nd round regularly, then it becomes a competitive but vastly inferior league maybe Georgian or Latvian. Basically a league no one will care about who wins or who plays in it

@Zehner E.g Since Messi and Ronaldo left La Liga there has been a slight loss of interest from international fans. even though the last 3 titles have been shared around Athetico, Barcelona Madrid and now Girona in the race

Fans seemed to prefer it when Barcelona won 8 titles in one decade 2008 to 2019 and Madrid won 2

Bayern doesn't need to bring themselves deliberately to the level of other Bundesliga teams. They can bring in talent from other teams - or even Bundesliga teams if they aren't direct competitors - all they want. But signing the best players and coaches from their direct competitors is something different. Even if you argue that they would have left the league anyway, the mere fact that they moved to Bayern ruins the reputation of the Bundesliga. I mean, just a quick look in transfer/performance threads of Bundesliga players proves as much. Every second post is "Bayern will pick them up anyway, no need to get invested".

 

[caid]

Dortmund, Leverkusen and so on have to take some responsibility for not being more difficult to deal with. Get a Daniel Levy attitude to selling to domestic rivals and they'll start looking elsewhere. It'll make a more competitive league but probably wont help in europe to be honest. Or it wont help Bayern, maybe it'll help pull everyone else up to more regular QF knockouts.
Its hard to see Leverkusen not losing some players though. Every position Real, Bayern, PSG and so on need to fill on the pitch they'll probably be sticking a leverkusen player on the list of options. Same for us - just look at some of the transfer suggestion threads. Was the same for Monaco.

 

[Zehner]

Dortmund, Leverkusen and so on have to take some responsibility for not being more difficult to deal with. Get a Daniel Levy attitude to selling to domestic rivals and they'll start looking elsewhere. It'll make a more competitive league but probably wont help in europe to be honest. Or it wont help Bayern, maybe it'll help pull everyone else up to more regular QF knockouts.
Its hard to see Leverkusen not losing some players though. Every position Real, Bayern, PSG and so on need to fill on the pitch they'll probably be sticking a leverkusen player on the list of options. Same for us - just look at some of the transfer suggestion threads. Was the same for Monaco.

The last player we sold to Bayern was Lucio almost 20 years ago Bayern tried to lowball us on Vidal but we refused to sell and instead transferred him to Juve. In general, we prefer selling players to foreign clubs. If somebody wants to move to Bayern and Bayern only, I guess we'll comply as part of our philosophy is to not hold onto players/coaches against their will but I'm generally optimistic that either Alonso nor Wirtz will end up in Munich right now.