Youth team philosophy and structure

Fearless

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How can England win the World Cup? They could start by asking Watford

The Guardian
Saturday 17 July 2010

By merging education with training sessions Watford's youth academy has become the envy of clubs across Europe

The Guardian, Saturday 17 July 2010

The visitors from Ajax's celebrated youth development programme were adamant. "If you tried to copy us, you've got it wrong," they told Nick Cox, the co-ordinator of Watford's academy. Then came the pay-off. "You've managed to get even more coaching time with the kids than we have. Well done!"

In the debate as to how England can produce more, and better, footballers – an issue raised yet again after the feats of Germany and Spain at the World Cup – Watford are providing a persuasive answer. Their academy for 11- to 16-year-olds at Harefield, just off the M25, has attracted admirers from as far afield as Valencia as well as a slew of Premier League clubs.

Since the Premier League began introducing academies 12 years ago, the problem clubs have most consistently complained about is how little time they can spend with young players. Watford used to have similar gripes. Cox says: "The kids would be tired after a day in school, then dash home, maybe grab some fast food on the way, then travel to the academy to do an hour of training, then travel back again and then maybe stay up late to do their homework. They may not have been eating right, probably weren't getting as much rest as they should have and, on top of that, weren't playing as much football as children in European countries with different education systems."

Proponents of youth development invoke the so-called 10,000-hour rule, according to which people who achieve excellence in any sphere only do so after about 10,000 hours of practice. Ged Roddy, the Premier League's director of youth, says: "Academy players will need up to 20 hours a week of contact time with their coaches across the secondary school years if they are to have any chance of meeting this level of contact."

No Premier League club is near that target even though most go to considerable efforts to strike deals with schools over the release of players. Sunderland, for example, employ Brian Buddle, a former head teacher, to oversee maths and English tuition for teenagers when they are given a day off school to train and have been awarded Grade 1 approval by Ofsted.

Watford have gone even further. Cox says: "Like all clubs we wanted to increase the contact time with the kids but we decided to go about it in the opposite way to most: not to get them out of school, but to put them into one."

Three years ago, they offered 34 young players places in the local secondary school in Harefield, which, driven by the former Olympic figure skater Haig Oundjian, a governor at the school and at the time a director of Watford, was being reinvented as a comprehensive academy with a focus on sport. So unlike Dutch clubs or residential programmes for young footballers such as France's acclaimed Clairefontaine model, Watford have integrated their academy players into a mainstream school, securing more time with their charges while saving on cost and preserving a healthy sense of normality among aspiring footballers.

Cox says: "We pick the children up at around 7am and they then do all the normal subjects but also have scheduled coaching throughout the day – at times when they are fresh – then we drop them home at 7pm. We get to do about 15 hours of football with them a week, up to three times more than most other clubs in this country.

"And not only do kids not have to sacrifice their education, we find that they actually perform better in the classroom as well as on the pitch because the environment is more stimulating and they are more driven in everything – they know if they are not doing their best in the classroom we can take away the privilege of training. We have 50 kids here now – before, they might have been in 50 different schools and we would have had no idea what they were doing for 95% of their time. Here we can take more responsibility for their development, both as players and as people."

The Premier League approves. Roddy says: "The development of academies and the deregulation of schools may provide some interesting opportunities for football to link with the education system. This could provide a more flexible environment in which to negotiate the much-needed access to coaching for the potential elites that frequent our academies."

Cross-training is another development buzzword. Aston Villa, West Bromwich Albion and Birmingham City have started to put this into practice in a limited sense – by training their 10- to 14-year-olds together, exposing the children to a wider range of playing and coaching talent.

Again Watford go further. The scholars at Harefield also include gifted young gymnasts, dancers, cricketers and even a jockey and an ice hockey player, and Watford take advantage. Limbering up every day with the ballet teacher has proved an enlightening experience. "We were a bit sceptical at first but it has really helped our strength and flexibility," says the 15-year-old Richard Mensah. "You notice it most when you stretch for the ball – you can stretch farther without feeling any strain."

Already Watford are reaping the fruit. They reached the quarter-finals of the FA Youth Cup – the national tournament for Under-18s – in each of the past two seasons. "Last season we beat Liverpool at Anfield before losing to Chelsea," Cox says. "That was a massive marker for us because our players all grew up on average 12 miles from Vicarage Road whereas many of the Premier League clubs start bringing in players from all over Europe once you reach over-16 level, so it's been a great indicator of the progress we've been making." On the final day of last season, the 17-year-old Gavin Massey laid down another marker when he became the first Harefield graduate to make his debut for the senior side, appearing as a substitute against Coventry City. He has since signed a professional contract. More, it is hoped, will come.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2011
 

TheHorse'sMouth

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Notice how Barca do everything in 3's. They hunt in threes, their options are in threes..feck even the formation is 4-3-3. The 3 is a basic indicator that for every man in possession of the ball, there's two to provide him with an outlet should he not want to travel with the ball. The transition of this three across all the different positions on the pitch is what makes them so effective in possession. Sometimes the ball gets played within one particular 'three' until another option becomes available, other times the transition between each three is rapid and cohesive. They've taken the 4-3-3 apart to it's basic building blocks, improvised a little on ideas formed a long time ago and have re-moulded it into something very unique.

For players to absorb something like that, it's not enough having technique..every single player out there should be able to assess a situation's merits/disadvantages in a matter of milliseconds. Footballing intelligence is what really should be taught at academies. How to manoeuvre the opposition using movement and the brain. That's where this Barca side really excel..being taught how to value the ball and making the ball do the running from a young age is what academies should be looking at. I know Arsene makes it a priority at ours, I don't know about others but everyone should be singing from the same hymnbook if we're to really improve the standard of footballer that we produce for both club and country.
 

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Sir Alex looks to the future

Sir Alex Ferguson looked to the future of United – on the pitch and in the stands – as he travelled through Manchester on the club’s championship parade.

The boss was in positive mood as thousands of fans turned out in the teeming run to cheer the open top bus on its way from Deansgate to Stretford via Old Trafford. All along the way, there were reminders of the Reds’ record-breaking league title – not least the trophy being held aloft by the players and coaches and the no. 19 bus itself.

“This is what Manchester United is all about, it shows fantastic loyalty from the fans. The weather is horrible but the fans are here. Well done to them all,” said Sir Alex on MUTV.

“What really is impressive is the number of children who are here. There are a lot of fathers here with kids who are as young as one or two years of age sitting on their shoulders. That’s the future of Manchester United, young people.”

With Saturday’s Champions League final defeat still fresh in everyone’s minds, Sir Alex spoke of the “wonderful challenge” he now faces as the Reds bid to match Barcelona on the European stage.

“People have to understand the mechanics of the industry we’re working in,” said Sir Alex.

“We are only allowed to coach youngsters for an hour and a half, they [Barcelona] can coach every hour of the day if they want to. That’s the great advantage they’ve got and they have a fantastic philosophy.


“We hope that in years to come our coaches will be able to spend more time with young kids, to teach them the basics, the technical abilities and the confidence to keep the ball all the time.

"We’re good at it but we’re not as good as Barcelona at this moment in time. It’s a wonderful challenge. We should always accept a challenge.”

Manchester United Official Web Site - Sir Alex Ferguson looks to the future
Fergie's take on youth development. What I did not get is what is stopping United to get as many hours of training for our youngsters as Barca?
 

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UK laws, I think.
I think more because of boarding rules and not being able to have the kids train inside the facility all the time since we take their education into consideration. The watford academy seems to have tackled the situation by having a boarding school near their place so as to get the maximum time for the youth players. 15 hours per week, i gather. La masla (is that what its called?) has a similar type of school for the younger kids.
 

Baby Faced Assassin

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I think more because of boarding rules and not being able to have the kids train inside the facility all the time since we take their education into consideration. The watford academy seems to have tackled the situation by having a boarding school near their place so as to get the maximum time for the youth players. 15 hours per week, i gather. La masla (is that what its called?) has a similar type of school for the younger kids.
I think United should make it a priority to try and make their youth development on the same level as Barca's.

PS: Just noticed that even FM rates our youth facilities lower then Barca and surprisingly even Real Madrid.
 

TheHorse'sMouth

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A quote by Xavi which should be pinned up in every academy:

I pass and I move, I help you, I look for you, I stop, I raise my head, I look and, above all, I open up the pitch…The one who has the ball, is the master of the game…That’s the school of Vila, of Benaiges, of Cruijff – Xavi Hernandez
 

Clique

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On the subject of Youth, It'd be great if someone who watches the game at reserve and youth level gives us a brief overview on the people they think will get a chance next season. Either in the Cup or as a squad member

Personally i'd love to see Petrucci, Pogba, Morrison and Tunnicliffe get some minutes on the pitch. Possible?
 

KingEric7

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I should imagine that Morrison will be given a few first team outings next season, whilst Tunnicliffe, Petrucci and Pogba either permanently move up and cement a starting XI place in the reserve team, or go out on loan.

My prediction is that Tunnicliffe will be loaned at some point, Petrucci will be kept at the club to help him return to the form he was in prior to his succession of injuries and Pogba will play every game possible for the reserves - maybe with a few Carling Cup outings to boot.

I'm not sure why this is, mind. Each have been as impressive as each other in different ways (Tunnicliffe, Morrison and Pogba), though I think Morrison is the only one that has the required combination of footballing brain, talent and willingness to demand the ball to make the step up for now. I sometimes think that, as ludicrously talented as Pogba is, he doesn't take hold of the game enough at certain points - probably because it's a little too easy for him at times.

We'll see. It's a stupidly exciting time for this lot, and I'm hoping that any central midfield signing is bang in their peak, so as to allow this lot to learn from them, whilst also not having to contend with, say, a 24 year old with about 8 years left at the top.
 

holdsteady

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On the subject of Youth, It'd be great if someone who watches the game at reserve and youth level gives us a brief overview on the people they think will get a chance next season. Either in the Cup or as a squad member

Personally i'd love to see Petrucci, Pogba, Morrison and Tunnicliffe get some minutes on the pitch. Possible?
Think its possible that Morrison will find his name on the bench every once in a while. Think those 4 alongside Robbie Brady will see several cup ties.
 

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I've read that they devote 15 million a year purely to running youth tournaments so they can scoop up the best talent from around Spain.

We can't do the equivalent of that due to the 90 minute rule.
Whats amazing is that Xavi,Busquets, Iniesta , Pique , Puyol , Valdes are all from Catalonia.:eek:

Luck is indeed a bit of a factor.
 

Ubik

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Don't think Iniesta is, but yeah, rest are.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Some thoughts....

1. You can only really compare United's Academy to that of Barcelona's. All other clubs are trying to scout, develop and introduce players to be good enough for Watford (that is 200 players less skilful than what we need at United)....Ajax have a great system and philosophy but thy are still producing players at a lower international level than Barca and us.

2. The FA rules clearly state that United can only sign kids into our Academy at say 8 years old if they live less than 90 minutes away...The United Academy relate this to within 30 miles of Carrington. So our catchment area is a 30 miles radius.

Therefore you could have the best prospect in England living in Carlisle but he is NOT ALLOWED to get the best training or development because he lives in the wrong place.

Well done Howard Wilkinson!

3. The FA rules also state that we are not allowed to 'coach' young players for more than a certain amount of hours per day.

Barca have no such restrictions. Funny enough if you want to be a runner, boxer, tennis player or any other athlete in England none of these rules apply. You can train as often as you want with whoever you want.

4. Barca also have a captive market. If you live in Catalonia then it is culturally accepted that you will join Barca. To go to another club is looked on very badly by family and local society. That;s a captive market of 7.5m people. United have a 20-30 mile radius to work within.

5. Other European countries (Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland) do not put restrictions on foreign players...so Messi can go to Barca as a youngster but would never be allowed in England.

6. Our coaching staff are equal to any of those in mainland Europe

7. In Gabrielle Marcotti's book 'The Italian Job' he analyses why English players 'appear' to be less skilful than those in Spain and Italy. He analyses the training, the heat, the cold, the rain....and concluded that the major difference influencing skill development was the wind. On an island like England it can be up to ten times windier than in Spain or Holland etc. When you are playing at Carrington the wind is unbelievable for those who have experienced it. No wonder English players find it so hard to control the ball. Obviously United have designed more indoor facilities to control this.

8. In recent years England have won the European U/17 Championships against Spain...reached the U/21 final...so at youth level we compete absolutely fine. It's the next stage that we seem to have problems with...either the kids don't push on...don't develop...or aren't given a chance.

There are probably other reasons I haven't explored here but the restrictions imposed by the FA are draconian at best!
 

Inigo Montoya

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We should just buy out a primary and secondary school near the club's training ground and turn them into a full time school plus academy. Placing all the youth we get into it, with a curriculum based around study and football training. With full time boarding facilities if necessary.
It's what I thought and still can't see why this can't be done.If religious groups are building their own schools to be run under their religious codes then I can't see why a club can't start their own schools.As long as the National Curriculum is being implemented and adhered to this shouldn't be a problem.

Where I live, Arsenal are using a local independent school as a feeder for their academy.Their training facility is literally 15mins walk away from the school. I realise this may take a lot of setting up, you'd of course need the right teachers,head etc but I don't see why this couldn't be done....no doubt some interfereing MP would come out and protest
 

redman5

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What I'm struggling to get my head around with all this '90 minute ruling' stuff, is how it would have improved United's set-up if everyone had been working under the same rules as Barca over the past 10-15 years with regards to youth development.

Barcelona & Manchester United have 2 different types of footballing styles & philosophies. Both are very good to watch, & both produce the goods when it comes to winning major trophies.

So has Ferguson been getting it wrong all these years ?. Quite obviously he hasn't. & will he now look at changing United's style, which has always been built on width, along with quick, technically good, forwards ?

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions as to how United would have fared any better on Saturday had they been on a level playing with Barca when it comes to developing the young players. Because I'll be dammed if I can see it.
 
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What I'm struggling to get my head around with all this '90 minute ruling' stuff, is how it would have improved United's set-up if everyone had been working under the same rules as Barca over the past 10-15 years with regards to youth development.

Barcelona & Manchester United have 2 different types of footballing styles & philosophies. Both are very good to watch, & both produce the goods when it comes to winning major trophies.

So has Ferguson been getting it wrong all these years ?. Quite obviously he hasn't. & will he now look at changing United's style, which has always been built on width, along with quick, technically good, forwards ?

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions as to how United would have fared any better on Saturday had they been on a level playing with Barca when it comes to developing the young players. Because I'll be dammed if I can see it.
United got their hands on the FA youth cup wining class of 1992 when the 90 minute rule didnt exist. From all over England. That was way back in the mid 80's and you saw the results.


Just remember Britain is a place in which great teams like the Liverpool one of the 70's and the Busyby Babes hailed from, to name just two. If that stupid rule was not in place, such teams wouldn't mostly just be a memory any more.
 
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It's what I thought and still can't see why this can't be done.If religious groups are building their own schools to be run under their religious codes then I can't see why a club can't start their own schools.As long as the National Curriculum is being implemented and adhered to this shouldn't be a problem.

Where I live, Arsenal are using a local independent school as a feeder for their academy.Their training facility is literally 15mins walk away from the school. I realise this may take a lot of setting up, you'd of course need the right teachers,head etc but I don't see why this couldn't be done....no doubt some interfereing MP would come out and protest
Indeed
 

redman5

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Just remember Britain is a place in which great teams like the Liverpool one of the 70's and the Busyby Babes hailed from, to name just two. If that stupid rule was not in place, such teams wouldn't mostly just be a memory any more.
That wasn't the point I was making though. I was asking as to how it would have improved United's performance against Barcelona on Saturday night, considering both sides have differing styles of play, & that Manchester United, under Ferguson, had won copious amounts of silverware using the style/system he has, regardless of any rulings on youth development

The side that Bob Paisley left in 1983 went onto winning the European Cup, the league, & the League Cup the following year. They played on possession, passing, & probing. Yet it only had one player (Sammy Lee) that had come through the youth system. If you've got good players, you don't need to indoctrinate them from an early age as to how you want them to play. Ferguson has brought in world-class youngsters from outside the club in recent years (Ronaldo, Rooney, Nani etc). They've all played a major part in your continued success. So therefore, isn't this just a simple case of Barcelona's style working better than everybody elses ?
 

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No, Barca just have better players at the moment, which allows them to play in the way they do. Arsenal play a similar way and haven't won anything for a while.

If you can attract the best young players and train them from an early age into a style of play and culture it's a massive advantage. It's also far more cost effective and also breeds loyalty.
 
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That wasn't the point I was making though. I was asking as to how it would have improved United's performance against Barcelona on Saturday night, considering both sides have differing styles of play, & that Manchester United, under Ferguson, had won copious amounts of silverware using the style/system he has, regardless of any rulings on youth development
I tried to answer your question. I was making a point that if there were no restriction on youth movment in Britain, Barcelona would most likely not have been the only team with a home grown midfield as good as Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets in the champions league semi finals.

If you've got good players, you don't need to indoctrinate them from an early age as to how you want them to play. Ferguson has brought in world-class youngsters from outside the club in recent years (Ronaldo, Rooney, Nani etc). They've all played a major part in your continued success. So therefore, isn't this just a simple case of Barcelona's style working better than everybody elses ?
Nothing compares to what a home grown set of world class players can do. If United had the freedom to pick the best youth talents from all over Britain, SAF and co would not have failed to replicate a team similar to the 1999 side he had that was full of home grown gems. As Barca have proved repeatedly, if you know how to teach youth the right way, you can keep churning out great home grown players. Then if they land on a golden manager like Guaridiola has proven for them thus far, and SAF has proven for United, to organise and harness their abilities,they become nigh unstoppable for a good period.

It is true Barca playing system is currently the best. However, the secret of its success is the home grown element of the entire squad. Save for Alves, Abidal and Villa, their rest of first 11 has either grown through the ranks or spent a large chunk of their careers playing together, or in their current playing system, from the time they were kids till now as men. That chemistry that is resultant is more than worth it weight in gold. That result in the team becoming almost telepathic in its execution of the club's style of play. That is what United had in 1999, Ajax had back in 1994-1996 and Barca have now.
 
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No, Barca just have better players at the moment, which allows them to play in the way they do. Arsenal play a similar way and haven't won anything for a while.....
That is because they don't press or defend as well as Barca do as a team. Which is all Wenger's fault. I bet a Guaridola would transform that same Arsenal side into wining one if he was in charge of it.
 

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some of the players coming out of that academy are fantastic maybe we should be looking at a few they let Pique & Fabregas slip.

We should always be looking at improving our own set up but the 90 minute rule means we will struggle ( could never bring through a Beckham again) so we have to look to europe to snap up a couple of gems aswell.
 

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That is because they don't press or defend as well as Barca do as a team. Which is all Wenger's fault. I bet a Guaridola would transform that same Arsenal side into wining one if he was in charge of it.
That's a little simplistic. Barca have the best player in the world and the best midfield. They are a far better team then Arsenal.
 

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Thing I dont get is the 90 minute rule was clearly made to give all teams an even chance to get the best talent from thier area. Scunthorpe are nowhere near as well catered to raise a youth product as a team like United but also any players of that standard will naturally end up there.

Wenger was right that if someone wants to be a musician and is a special talent they go to the best school possible.
 

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I think I once remember Brian Mcclair saying United was planning to build a boarding school near Carrington so gifted football could start going school there and then we could actually sign them. I assumed this has since been either cancelled by the club or blocked by the FA, does anyone remember anything about it?
 

Mr. MUJAC

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That wasn't the point I was making though. I was asking as to how it would have improved United's performance against Barcelona on Saturday night, considering both sides have differing styles of play, & that Manchester United, under Ferguson, had won copious amounts of silverware using the style/system he has, regardless of any rulings on youth development

The side that Bob Paisley left in 1983 went onto winning the European Cup, the league, & the League Cup the following year. They played on possession, passing, & probing. Yet it only had one player (Sammy Lee) that had come through the youth system. If you've got good players, you don't need to indoctrinate them from an early age as to how you want them to play. Ferguson has brought in world-class youngsters from outside the club in recent years (Ronaldo, Rooney, Nani etc). They've all played a major part in your continued success. So therefore, isn't this just a simple case of Barcelona's style working better than everybody elses ?
If you get a young player knowing the clubs culture and playing philosophy it makes it easier and quicker to integrate them into United's style. Ronaldo played for himself and that is not the United way...the 2009 EC Final was a good example of that. It has taken Nani three years to show a team ethic.

In terms of what difference it would have made in the 2011 EC Final....if we were not restricted by the 90 minute rule we MAY have had the opportunity of developing the likes of Wilshere, Ramsey, Bale and others at OT.

With a different set of players it MIGHT have made a difference.

Then again...who knows.
 
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That's a little simplistic. Barca have the best player in the world and the best midfield. They are a far better team then Arsenal.
They are also managed far better. It was making it very simplistic to say Arsenal play like Barca yet win nothing. Arsenal don't play like Barca at all. It is not just having better players that makes Barca superior to Arsenal. It's their system of play and the mentality instilled by their manager.


I have little doubt Arsenal players have the skill set to play just like a Barcelona. They just don't have the manager.
 

redman5

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If you get a young player knowing the clubs culture and playing philosophy it makes it easier and quicker to integrate them into United's style.
But isn't this all about differing styles as opposed to one club having an advantage over another re rulings etc ?

Manchester United, under Ferguson, have always played an expansive brand of football, with wingers playing an integral part. Constantly seeking to stretch the opposition at every opportunity. This was even the case during the period when the class of 92 were reaching their peak. Then you also had the maverick skills of Cantona, along with the fearless leadership of Roy Keane. When you look back at that side, it's difficult to see how it could have been improved upon when it comes to playing staff. But as good as that side was, there was always a vulnerability when it came to playing some of 'better' sides in Europe. So even if United had managed to bring in the likes of Wilshire, Bale & co, it still would have meant Fergie changing his philosophy in order to construct as side capable of controlling, & dominating, sides of the highest calibre.

I used Bob Paisley as an example because of the way he totally changed, & transformed, the way we played. He inherited a very good winger in the form of Steve Heighway. The lad played a vital part in our 1977 European Cup success. But Paisley never signed a winger during his 9 years in charge, simply because it didn't fit in with his vision of the style he wanted his side to play. It was all based around possession & patient football. & I think it's fair to say that he did a very good job at moving the side up another level or two. This despite the absence of talented youngsters coming through the ranks - So, all things considered. Would you say that having the same advantage as Barcelona when it comes to recruiting & developing young players. Fergie would have evolved your playing style to such an extent that United would be on a similar level to the Spaniards ?
 

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They are also managed far better. It was making it very simplistic to say Arsenal play like Barca yet win nothing. Arsenal don't play like Barca at all. It is not just having better players that makes Barca superior to Arsenal. It's their system of play and the mentality instilled by their manager.


I have little doubt Arsenal players have the skill set to play just like a Barcelona. They just don't have the manager.
So you're saying that with exactly the same players but swap Guardiola for Wenger and they'd be as successful as Barcelona? I'm afraid that's nonsense.

Barcelona can only play the they do because of the players at their disposal.

Arsenal aren't in the same class.