Cesc Fabregas' character and competitiveness

Jens' Face

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... so as not to hijack the Anderson thread ...

But in that thread Brwned and Bilbo brought up a contention that was, to me, genuinely surprising and I was interested in exploring it more: Fabregas has no fight.

I asked Brwned to explain what he meant by "fight" (I think it was ...) and why he thought Cesc didn't have it.

When the going gets tough he doesn't step up and take the game by the scruff of the neck, although he does make the team tick. Where was he against Stoke? It's not even the fact that he didn't play well, but players like Keane would have lead their team even when not playing well and set an example of how everyone else should go about their work.

He's not an inspirational character in terms of his attitude and work-rate either.

All things which show a sign of fight.

As to the facts (well, my version of them anyways) ...

Cesc puts in a very hard shift when he plays. He tracks back well and often (though certainly not always) puts himself about like a terrier. That he usually does it within the context of his responsibilities on the pitch -- to maintain an attacking position, say -- should not be used to detract from his competitive nature. If it does, that means that a player has to have bad judgment to be considered fiercely competitive.

Part of the reason Cesc and Arsenal both have been less effective this year is precisely because Cesc has been taking on more holding responsibilities, trying to cover for Denilson. Cesc's ineffectiveness against Stoke in fact resulted from his competitiveness.

I don't really know how to exemplify or otherwise prove to you that my impressions are correct. I mean, I can name matches where I thought he stood out and his grit and drive loomed over the game -- Utd at OT in 2006, last season's 2nd CL leg v Milan, some league game against the Chavs last season or the season before (...), last season's home match vs. Tottnumb and this season's too, the horrific and comic collapse notwithstanding, etc. I'm sure folks like peterstorey, cesc's mullet, and christofaux have their own examples. But I don't know why just listing the games would do anything to change our disagreement.

Most gooners on my gooner messageboard think that Cesc is one of the team leaders and many want him to be captain -- now or in a few years. That's surely based on something real they see in his game. (And you can't just trot out the idea that "well, all gooners love Cesc" because as you yourself have noted, there are plenty of criticisms of him and also these are gooners, within their own tribe as it were, choosing Cesc over other Arsenal players, so team-based favoritism can't be a factor.)

As to definitions, two points.

1. The way you criticize Cesc suggests to me that we are, to some extent, talking about different things after all. You are thinking of qualities of leadership or inspiration as well as (what I consider) fight or competitiveness. I think that does confuse things, and it's a confusion we should sort out if we're going to have this discussion, just so we know what one another is talking about.

I would answer yes to both questions -- "is Cesc a leader" and "is Cesc a fighter" -- and you might answer no to both. But I would give different arguments or evidence in support of the two answers.

2. When you suggest that Cesc lacks fight, grit, determination, competitiveness, I wonder if you are confusing those virtues with other ones, that Cesc does lack.

I think that Cesc has two problems, problems that he shares with some of his teammates. First, arrogance, complacency, or a feeling of footballier-than-thou. I see this as different issue from fight. When Cesc plays poorly or without concentration, it's not him backing down from a challenge, it's because he wrongly assumes the challenge is already won.

The second problem is his petulance. This may be ignoble or dishonorable or immature or otherwise deserving of scorn, but if anything it's evidence in favor of his (overly?) competitive spirit, not against it.
 
Fabregas is overated. He does not have the same ability of Xavi. He has not added goals to his game consistently, only a burst in the first half last season.
His tackling is underated though.
 
Cesc has a fight allright as evidenced by his nasty side when things don't go his way such as chucking pizza, spitting at Ballack, getting in the face of other etc.

Fabulous player mind.
 
Fabresgas has fight but some petulance (not unusal at Arse)

But is currently a better player than Anderson.
 
I find it bizarre that you didn't get a DM to be honest, although I thought maybe Song would be pushing for that spot (I definitely didn't expect Denilson and Fabregas to play together). Fabregas hasn't quite started the season as well as he did the last but as you say, it's partly due to him having more defensive responsibilities. He doesn't strike me (yet) as someone who's going to grab a team and carry/lift them when they're not playing well but he's still very young and may develop leadership qualities with more experience. However he can still influence a match when his team aren't in form, or even himself because he's got so much ability and all it takes is one killer pass. He's still very competitive (I thought he was a bit overly so a couple of years ago... Used to get involved in needless stuff but maybe it was immaturity) but at his age, it's highly unlikely that he's going to have that 'leadership' ability of Keano and Vieira. I can certainly see a potential skipper in him. Maybe he would've thrived on it if he was given it in time for the new season but Gallas wouldn't have been best pleased.
 
No point in trying Jens, there's too many clueless pillocks around here.

Lucky the few people whose posts are worth reading have the right of it, just forget the rest.
 
I think Fabregas needs a real and efficient holding midfielder playing next to him in order to feel "less" concerned by defensive duties and more focuse on attack which is where he's best with his passing and shooting. Denilson is a good young player but for me he's just another Fabregas in the making and it's not the best formula for Arsenal in midfield. It was working with the likes of Gilberto Silva (on form) and Flamini playing next to Cesc.
In certain matches he could do a job properly but in the long run it's detrimental to his game and to Arsenal overall since I see him as your best player in the most important position.
Playing alongside a physical player in midfield also boosted his confidence in being more "tough" but it shouldn't his role.
 
Denilson's not another Fabregas in the making mate. He's a box to box type player, and could possibly develop into a Flamini-type...

But I doubt it.
 
Fight is a very British thing, which is why it's completely understandable that Fabregas doesn't have a lot of it. None of the Spanish national first team midfielders do besides Iniesta(who shows it in glimpses).

It's a pointless debate which really looks as if I'm trying to take a dig at Fabregas when I've quite clearly made the point he's a brilliant midfielder.

We'll continue this on the Arsenal forum though where it seems only one Arsenal fan agrees with me.
 
Had another ineffective game by his standards. Denilson will never be a Flamini-type player, and it's clear the dip in Arsenal's form year-over-year is huge (+loss of Hleb).
 
It always surprises me when I see him running around tackling people, partly because he never used to and partly because he's a petulant little fanny. This surprise is rather unfair though as I think generally speaking he does his fair share of the dirty work in midfield. Still tends to play better when he doesn't have to though.
 
I think its irrelevant. He isnt a leader and isnt meant to do the dirty work. He does his bit and more than hes expected to but he isnt someone whose going to give you muscle against teams that bite. He, like Scholsey, runs games. Personally i think theres noone in the game who does it like Scholsey at his best does it, apart from maybe Xavi. But Fabregas may get there soon.

Anways the point is hes a terrific player who does what he does brilliantly. Just like Ronaldo is the best player in the world, but does he have fight? does he have a bit of Roy Keane in him? does scholes? nope. Everyone has their own qualities and so does Cesc and hes uses them brilliantly. Is he a fairy who runs away from a challenge? No. Top players dont do that and he certainly doesnt.

All of that said i do think hes overrated, there are better midfielders out there right now but hes very young and should improve with time.
 
Most gooners on my gooner messageboard think that Cesc is one of the team leaders and many want him to be captain -- now or in a few years. That's surely based on something real they see in his game. (And you can't just trot out the idea that "well, all gooners love Cesc" because as you yourself have noted, there are plenty of criticisms of him and also these are gooners, within their own tribe as it were, choosing Cesc over other Arsenal players, so team-based favoritism can't be a factor.)



I think that Cesc has two problems, problems that he shares with some of his teammates. First, arrogance, complacency, or a feeling of footballier-than-thou. I see this as different issue from fight. When Cesc plays poorly or without concentration, it's not him backing down from a challenge, it's because he wrongly assumes the challenge is already won.

You won't have to debate whether or not he would be a worthy captain if you fail to win the league or the Champions League this season. If you don't win one of those he will be off to Barcelona.

"Footballier-than-thou" - what the feck are you taking?
 
He does have fight and good character but I think right now you can tell he doesn't think this team is worth fighting for and who can really blame him after the events of this summer?
 
He does have fight and good character but I think right now you can tell he doesn't think this team is worth fighting for and who can really blame him after the events of this summer?
Correct. IMO letting Flamini go killed his spirit. Last year there were games he helped did you out of holes. Now he doesn't seem as bothered
 
Fàbregas isn't a leader. He'd lead by example but he's not a leader. He's not the type that will pick you up after you go a goal down - just that he's the most likely to create the equaliser.

Leadership isn't something that you develop, really - you either have it or you don't. But Fàbregas isn't a leader.

(Would still be better than Gallas, though.)
 
Fàbregas isn't a leader. He'd lead by example but he's not a leader. He's not the type that will pick you up after you go a goal down - just that he's the most likely to create the equaliser.
There you have it in your own post - there's more than one way of being a leader.
 
He's 21 ffs. When he's 25+ he will be captain material for any team in the world. I'd love that team to be United, although that's very unlikely.
 
He does have fight and good character but I think right now you can tell he doesn't think this team is worth fighting for and who can really blame him after the events of this summer?

To be honest you're probably asking the wrong set of fans what they think of cesc's character. He's already shown great disrespect to two of our heroes in Sir Alex and Sparky, so you can understand why a lot of us view him as an immature little twat and fail to see this 'good character' you speak of. Plus his cesc fabregas show is rubbish and seems to serve as nothing more than an ego boost for a man who's precocious footballing talents on the field don't seem to match his character off of it. Personally i don't like him, and if any of our players had thrown food at an elderly man in a temperamental litle hissy fit, I would find it very hard to warm to their character as well.

That said though his footballing brain is far more advanced than his years, and he does put in a lot of effort on the pitch. But when you have a classy (I use that term losely), talented young player from the continent who can spray balls to any part of the pitch for fun, his work ethic is not something that is ever really going to get as much notice as his talent on the ball.
 
He's 21 ffs. When he's 25+ he will be captain material for any team in the world. I'd love that team to be United, although that's very unlikely.
He'll be captain of Spain and Arsenal (one hopes) if not Barcelona.
 
he's a feckin' fanny

Lets be honest here

To be honest you're probably asking the wrong set of fans what they think of cesc's character. He's already shown great disrespect to two of our heroes in Sir Alex and Sparky, so you can understand why a lot of us view him as an immature little twat and fail to see this 'good character' you speak of. Plus his cesc fabregas show is rubbish and seems to serve as nothing more than an ego boost for a man who's precocious footballing talents on the field don't seem to match his character off of it. Personally i don't like him, and if any of our players had thrown food at an elderly man in a temperamental litle hissy fit, I would find it very hard to warm to their character as well.

That said though his footballing brain is far more advanced than his years, and he does put in a lot of effort on the pitch. But when you have a classy (I use that term losely), talented young player from the continent who can spray balls to any part of the pitch for fun, his work ethic is not something that is ever really going to get as much notice as his talent on the ball.

These are the correct answers.
 
To be honest you're probably asking the wrong set of fans what they think of cesc's character. He's already shown great disrespect to two of our heroes in Sir Alex and Sparky, so you can understand why a lot of us view him as an immature little twat and fail to see this 'good character' you speak of. Plus his cesc fabregas show is rubbish and seems to serve as nothing more than an ego boost for a man who's precocious footballing talents on the field don't seem to match his character off of it. Personally i don't like him, and if any of our players had thrown food at an elderly man in a temperamental litle hissy fit, I would find it very hard to warm to their character as well.

Were you tearing up when you wrote this? I can't believe how much you people think its sacrilege that a player from a rival club doesnt give a shit about your club.
 
Were you tearing up when you wrote this? I can't believe how much you people think its sacrilege that a player from a rival club doesnt give a shit about your club.

Whatg on earth are you talking about? There is a reason I used the words 'elderly man' , as what he did is unacceptable in any way of form, inside or outside of footall. If someone I knew had thrown pizza at a man in his 60's, I would think that person was an immature twat as well. Now if you're determind to act like an utter cretin in a thread, please do it in the general where these kind of witless, sarcastic answers belong.
 
You Arsenal fans are the ones who still think you're our rivals so don't start sunshine.

every year we are 1 of 4 teams whos ambition is to challenge for the title, that makes us rivals.

Whatg on earth are you talking about? There is a reason I used the words 'elderly man' , as what he did is unacceptable in any way of form, inside or outside of footall. If someone I knew had thrown pizza at a man in his 60's, I would think that person was an immature twat as well. Now if you're determind to act like an utter cretin in a thread, please do it in the general where these kind of witless, sarcastic answers belong.


Fly kicking someone in or outside of football is also unacceptable but he's viewed as a god. Double standards, you have them.
 
Were you tearing up when you wrote this? I can't believe how much you people think its sacrilege that a player from a rival club doesnt give a shit about your club.

You are fecking kidding right? A fecking Arsenal fan accusing someone of bursting into tears. The Emirates Stadium is like the Tiny Tears factory.

Just curious, but at what stage of this season will the first of your players burst into tears on the pitch?
 
You are fecking kidding right? A fecking Arsenal fan accusing someone of bursting into tears. The Emirates Stadium is like the Tiny Tears factory.

Just curious, but at what stage of this season will the first of your players burst into tears on the pitch?

:lol: Poor poor attempt.
 
It means your players are a bunch of mard arses. Wasn't that clear enough for you?

200px-Mard.jpg



:confused:

edit: oh i get it

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mard-arse

Sorry i havent been in the hood lately.
 
Christofaux, you are obviously not from the U.K. A mard arse is a soft fecker who is likely to burst into tears at the drop of a hat, e.g William Gallas.
 
Christofaux, you are obviously not from the U.K. A mard arse is a soft fecker who is likely to burst into tears at the drop of a hat, e.g William Gallas.

No wuckers cobber!

Anyway i was commenting on how the poster sounded like he was deeply saddened by the event. Where if it was Anderson to Wenger, different story.