... so as not to hijack the Anderson thread ...
But in that thread Brwned and Bilbo brought up a contention that was, to me, genuinely surprising and I was interested in exploring it more: Fabregas has no fight.
I asked Brwned to explain what he meant by "fight" (I think it was ...) and why he thought Cesc didn't have it.
Cesc puts in a very hard shift when he plays. He tracks back well and often (though certainly not always) puts himself about like a terrier. That he usually does it within the context of his responsibilities on the pitch -- to maintain an attacking position, say -- should not be used to detract from his competitive nature. If it does, that means that a player has to have bad judgment to be considered fiercely competitive.
Part of the reason Cesc and Arsenal both have been less effective this year is precisely because Cesc has been taking on more holding responsibilities, trying to cover for Denilson. Cesc's ineffectiveness against Stoke in fact resulted from his competitiveness.
I don't really know how to exemplify or otherwise prove to you that my impressions are correct. I mean, I can name matches where I thought he stood out and his grit and drive loomed over the game -- Utd at OT in 2006, last season's 2nd CL leg v Milan, some league game against the Chavs last season or the season before (...), last season's home match vs. Tottnumb and this season's too, the horrific and comic collapse notwithstanding, etc. I'm sure folks like peterstorey, cesc's mullet, and christofaux have their own examples. But I don't know why just listing the games would do anything to change our disagreement.
Most gooners on my gooner messageboard think that Cesc is one of the team leaders and many want him to be captain -- now or in a few years. That's surely based on something real they see in his game. (And you can't just trot out the idea that "well, all gooners love Cesc" because as you yourself have noted, there are plenty of criticisms of him and also these are gooners, within their own tribe as it were, choosing Cesc over other Arsenal players, so team-based favoritism can't be a factor.)
As to definitions, two points.
1. The way you criticize Cesc suggests to me that we are, to some extent, talking about different things after all. You are thinking of qualities of leadership or inspiration as well as (what I consider) fight or competitiveness. I think that does confuse things, and it's a confusion we should sort out if we're going to have this discussion, just so we know what one another is talking about.
I would answer yes to both questions -- "is Cesc a leader" and "is Cesc a fighter" -- and you might answer no to both. But I would give different arguments or evidence in support of the two answers.
2. When you suggest that Cesc lacks fight, grit, determination, competitiveness, I wonder if you are confusing those virtues with other ones, that Cesc does lack.
I think that Cesc has two problems, problems that he shares with some of his teammates. First, arrogance, complacency, or a feeling of footballier-than-thou. I see this as different issue from fight. When Cesc plays poorly or without concentration, it's not him backing down from a challenge, it's because he wrongly assumes the challenge is already won.
The second problem is his petulance. This may be ignoble or dishonorable or immature or otherwise deserving of scorn, but if anything it's evidence in favor of his (overly?) competitive spirit, not against it.
But in that thread Brwned and Bilbo brought up a contention that was, to me, genuinely surprising and I was interested in exploring it more: Fabregas has no fight.
I asked Brwned to explain what he meant by "fight" (I think it was ...) and why he thought Cesc didn't have it.
As to the facts (well, my version of them anyways) ...
Cesc puts in a very hard shift when he plays. He tracks back well and often (though certainly not always) puts himself about like a terrier. That he usually does it within the context of his responsibilities on the pitch -- to maintain an attacking position, say -- should not be used to detract from his competitive nature. If it does, that means that a player has to have bad judgment to be considered fiercely competitive.
Part of the reason Cesc and Arsenal both have been less effective this year is precisely because Cesc has been taking on more holding responsibilities, trying to cover for Denilson. Cesc's ineffectiveness against Stoke in fact resulted from his competitiveness.
I don't really know how to exemplify or otherwise prove to you that my impressions are correct. I mean, I can name matches where I thought he stood out and his grit and drive loomed over the game -- Utd at OT in 2006, last season's 2nd CL leg v Milan, some league game against the Chavs last season or the season before (...), last season's home match vs. Tottnumb and this season's too, the horrific and comic collapse notwithstanding, etc. I'm sure folks like peterstorey, cesc's mullet, and christofaux have their own examples. But I don't know why just listing the games would do anything to change our disagreement.
Most gooners on my gooner messageboard think that Cesc is one of the team leaders and many want him to be captain -- now or in a few years. That's surely based on something real they see in his game. (And you can't just trot out the idea that "well, all gooners love Cesc" because as you yourself have noted, there are plenty of criticisms of him and also these are gooners, within their own tribe as it were, choosing Cesc over other Arsenal players, so team-based favoritism can't be a factor.)
As to definitions, two points.
1. The way you criticize Cesc suggests to me that we are, to some extent, talking about different things after all. You are thinking of qualities of leadership or inspiration as well as (what I consider) fight or competitiveness. I think that does confuse things, and it's a confusion we should sort out if we're going to have this discussion, just so we know what one another is talking about.
I would answer yes to both questions -- "is Cesc a leader" and "is Cesc a fighter" -- and you might answer no to both. But I would give different arguments or evidence in support of the two answers.
2. When you suggest that Cesc lacks fight, grit, determination, competitiveness, I wonder if you are confusing those virtues with other ones, that Cesc does lack.
I think that Cesc has two problems, problems that he shares with some of his teammates. First, arrogance, complacency, or a feeling of footballier-than-thou. I see this as different issue from fight. When Cesc plays poorly or without concentration, it's not him backing down from a challenge, it's because he wrongly assumes the challenge is already won.
The second problem is his petulance. This may be ignoble or dishonorable or immature or otherwise deserving of scorn, but if anything it's evidence in favor of his (overly?) competitive spirit, not against it.
Poor poor attempt.
