Players having doubts about their future

Brwned · May 12, 2013

Why do people react with shock and outrage when it happens? It's bound to be tempting when someone presents the opportunity to you to a) make loads of money, b) live in some of the most spectacular cities in Europe and c) play for one of the biggest clubs in the world. We pay our players ungodly amounts and win lots of titles, if either of those things change then a big portion of our players would instantly leave. I don't have a problem with that because I don't expect them to have the same unconditional love for the club. If they want to leave I'll think they're making the wrong decision but I won't call him a cnut for making a mistake. The contribution they've offered to the club far outweighs one or two poor decisions.

The recent Rooney rumours have shown that the fans are desperate to condemn anyone that even considers leaving. Fans are ready to sever all ties with the player before there's even been the slightest hint of confirmation that he wants to leave. If he has some doubts about his United future and the management have to convince him to stay, I'll be delighted to keep him. Looking at the reaction in the Rooney thread it seems a large portion of our fan base would want us to get rid of him rather than try to convince him to stay, and I can't understand that at all. Regardless of what anyone says about him no longer being "irreplaceable", it's undeniable that selling him would only weaken us and strengthen one of our rivals. He can take Chelsea or City from title challengers to title winners or he could help Madrid win their 10th CL. He is that good. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo both mention him and Scholes in the same breath while Berbatov and Tévez feel he's the best/most complete player he's played with.

Ronaldinho said:
“I remember seeing Eric Cantona play for Manchester United,” he told The Daily Mail. “The way he used to control games was special to watch. Paul Scholes, Frank Lampard, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, all players who, at their peak, would have got into any team in the world. Rooney is a player I like – there is not a national squad in the world he would not improve.”

Ronaldo on being asked who's the best he's ever played with [August 2012]

"Wayne Rooney, who else? He was always right beside me, shielding people so I could get on ahead, score, assist my goals with those ridiculous passes, he sacrificed his role for me when I was there, so, he's the best I've ever played with, no doubt, after that comes Paul [Scholes]''

Tévez said:
I’ve had the honour of playing with some great players. At United, I had Cristiano in my team and obviously I have Messi in the national team.At Boca Juniors I had striker Martin Palermo for a team-mate – he was very impressive. He was the one who put two goals past Real Madrid in Japan. But the one I like the most is Rooney. He has everything. He’s very complete.

Berbatov said:
"Ronaldo was a fantastic player for us and I'm sure he will be very good for Real Madrid. But, for me, our biggest talent is and always was - even last season - Wayne Rooney. He is an incredible talent and will be one of the best players in Europe for many years to come.

I'll think he's an idiot for wanting away in the first place but if he eventually changes his mind and realises United's the best place for him then why would anyone want him to leave? I'd be willing to put up with having a idiot in our team provided he continues to help this team be successful and play good football. Loads of players have considered leaving at some point that we love in spite of that. Cantona, Keane, even Evra in the same bloody summer (2010) wanted away. If they threaten to leave just because they're holding the club to ransom I'll still want him to stay. It means he's a greedy prick but then most players are exactly that. That tends to happen when you throw millions at people. In fact Keane considered leaving for exactly that:

Keane said:
I said all along if the deal was right I would sign, because deep down I didn't want to leave and I think United knew that. Deep down I didn't really think I'd be comfortable living in a foreign country. I fancied a different challenge, I spoke to the manager about that, but sometimes you've got to follow your gut feeling and my gut feeling was to stay at Manchester United.

In the end we had to twist their arms and/or give them a couple more £m's to convince them to stay. People are right to complain about a lack of loyalty from players but you have to acknowledge the club can show an equal level of disloyalty when it comes to selling players. If you're a top player like van Nistelrooy or Ronaldo we're willing to put up with repeated transfer requests simply because keeping them is the best thing for United. As soon as we decide that keeping Keane/van Nistelrooy/Beckham etc. is no longer in the club's best interests we're absolutely ruthless in shipping them out. There's no hesitation in getting rid of them and in many cases these players are shipped off under a cloud of controversy with the blame laid solely at their doorstep. Even someone like Wes Brown was unceremoniously shipped out after years of loyalty. People expect unconditional loyalty from the player but the club never shows anything like that to its players. The loyalty is always conditional at either end. If Cantona was a Nicky Butt-level player do you think we'd have put up with his antics? He'd have been shipped off without a second thought and the supporters would've fully backed the decision. Ultimately the only reason he stayed is because he was one our most important players and losing him would have severely weakened the club's ability to maintain that level of success.

The Telegraph said:
Edwards implied it was only Cantona's great ability, the success he had brought to Old Trafford and the money that had brought in, which saved him from the sack. "Since he came here we have had a glorious two years and we have borne that in mind when coming to our decision."
-------
"We've always said that we wanted Éric to stay, but we want players who want to play for us."

Sir Alex sending a message to Cantona amid rumours of his departure to Inter Milan

Cantona later expressing his admiration for Inter

"I’ve always been very fond of this club and I would have liked to play here. I’ve always wanted to play for the best and this club is one of the best.

Click to expand...

Some of our greatest and most loved players have considered leaving yet people are jumping at the chance to use rumours as proof that Rooney's this disloyal, money-grabbing cnut of a man that doesn't deserve the the support of our fans. I think it's bizarre. Anyone who wants United to get rid of Rooney simply because he's expressed doubts about how he wants to spend his last few years at the top is being short-sighted and hypocritical, IMO. I for one hope that regardless of what Rooney's thinking now he starts next season as a United player because the combination of qualities he offers is almost unique and he's essential to this United team handling a very difficult transition over the next couple of years.

Brwned · May 12, 2013

Zen86 said:
Another Rooney thread, then.

Why not? It's a different discussion to any going on in the other Rooney threads and there's a significant portion of people here who prefer new threads being started for a specific topic rather than having various megathreads covering a wide range of issues. You have to wade through a ton of crap in the main Rooney thread (as you well know) to even get a gist of what the discussion's about whereas here you can just look at the OP and decide whether it's of any interest to you within a few seconds.

Spoony · May 12, 2013

Because it's all played out in the media. For me there's no bigger legend than Robbo, but even he had thoughts of playing elsewhere. From what I can recall Big Ron allowed him to have talks with Juventus, who at that time had a phenomenal team but thankfully he decided to stay. Then again, some players can do no wrong whereas others are always under the microscope. It's rather childish.

Zen86 · May 12, 2013

Brwned said:
Why not? It's a different discussion to any going on in the other Rooney threads and there's a significant portion of people here who prefer new threads being started for a specific topic rather than having various megathreads covering a wide range of issues. You have to wade through a ton of crap in the main Rooney thread (as you well know) to even get a gist of what the discussion's about whereas here you can just look at the OP and decide whether it's of any interest to you within a few seconds.

It's a nice idea in theory, but it will descend into farce soon enough. Everyone gets so partisan when it comes to Rooney.

Spoony · May 12, 2013

David Beckham was thinking of staying when Fergie announced his retirement, only to u turn when Fergie said 'I stay!'. I can't think of a more disruptive player than Becks, but there you go. He's well loved again. Bestie's another, this place would've been apoplectic had it existed back then.

SilentWitness · May 12, 2013

The thing I like about United is that nobody is bigger than the club which rules out keeping him if he doesn't want to stay.

Yes, if the media is true he is a greedy twat, but I believe he has been a great servant to your club. Definitely worth the money you paid for him as his goals speak for themself. He has probably been the difference in many title wins for you too.

You can't wait for him. You don't want to do what City have done with Tevez and drag out a story which can and will hurt the teams morale and the clubs image.

Yes, he's one of your best players on form but you've sold big players in the past and managed to succeed still, and if you sell Rooney I believe you'd be fine.

Striker10 · May 12, 2013

I think there's so many media outlets now and the limited quality that there was has been added to, with even more bullshit. It's not always disrespecting the club. If people cannot be reasonable, then they should shut the feck up. What we're dealing with regarding Rooney, is unreasonable. All this twitter nonsense which somehow becomes truth is beyond stupid.

We don't know everything that's gone on behind the scenes but I think people need to stop using their own personal dislike of someone to jump one every story, just to slag someone off. It's childish. Stop printing bullshit because some people don't have the brains to take it for what it is. We don't know what's gone or or what is going on. The media are motherfeckers. It's that simple

Liam147 · May 12, 2013

Tl; dr, but a) and c) can be answered with: You're already earning boatloads of money and you're already playing for arguably the biggest club in the world. Madrid and Barca are the only two which compete.

What people really took issue with was Rooney telling us that we weren't ambitious enough. He might as well have said he's not keen on the colour red.

In reality we all knew it was about him earning (even) more money. It's obscene.

I understand that we all want more, but it's inconsiderate at best to feel that £150k isn't enough and you want £250k, when adding up everyone's wages in the stadium it probably doesn't come to that.

To match Rooney's weekly wage, you'd need everyone in the stadium to OT their wage together, and probably multiply it by five.

What I don't understand is the vitriol from smaller clubs like Arsenal, when their best player wants to win the league. These people are competitive and want to win.

Steven Seagull · May 12, 2013

Zen86 said:
Another Rooney thread, then.

Can't you keep your moaning to the actual Rooney thread. God knows you and Sparky are the gatekeepers in there, balancing out everyone's bias and providing a nice even footing for discussion.

As for Rooney, we can't wait for him to finally realise he should stay here. He's got a month or so before he has to start thinking about pre season. He's very important to us and I think now Ferguson has gone he might change his mind. I doubt he's got any real problems with the club itself. I think keeping players can become detrimental unless they're special. Fabregas and Ronaldo are 2 examples in recent years that you'd keep, because even at 90% they enter than almost everyone in the league. Ronaldo acted like a fecking baby in his last 12-14 months but nobody seems to care about that because he was so good.

Cantona, Keane all had their discrepancies while they were here too, Keane wouldn't have been shipped out for talking bollocks to MUTV if he was 28 and fit.

Cheesy · May 12, 2013

It's more the fact that these players are complete money grabbers. Most may be, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be condemned. When most football fans will live in average, moderate conditions, it must be infuriating when you see a player throwing his toys out of the pram because £150k a week isn't enough for him. If a player genuinely wants to leave to experience something new, somewhere else, then there's maybe an argument there. But that's usually not the case. Usually these players just want a bigger wage than what they already have.

While they might want to experience new things elsewhere in Europe, let's not forget that these players already get to travel anyway. It's not as if Rooney hasn't been all over the world as a footballer, even if he's spent his playing career in Liverpool and Manchester. Again, the fans part can be brought back into it here. Many fans don't get to travel the world. They'll be confined to one office of work for most of their life in a dreary, rainy place. So they'll look at footballers and then ask what makes them entitled to be able to do that when they feel like that? But back to my original point, it's rarely the case with players. They're pretty much all after money and it's just become so normal for that to be the case.

If a player respectfully asks to leave then fine, but it's when players throw their toys out of the pram and demand to leave despite already earning millions a year at their current club.

Castia · May 12, 2013

If he want's to leave then it's time we let him go, we can't have a player putting in 2 transfer requests (official or unofficial) in 3 years. Give him the option to be sold abroad or stay put because if he does want to go then feck selling him to another English club.

Hectic · May 12, 2013

Liam147 said:
I understand that we all want more, but it's inconsiderate at best to feel that £150k isn't enough and you want £250k, when adding up everyone's wages in the stadium it probably doesn't come to that. To match Rooney's weekly wage, you'd need everyone in the stadium to OT their wage together, and probably multiply it by five.

I love it when you try to count.

esmufc07 · May 12, 2013

Wait, what? Liam that's incredibly stupid logic. In fact I don't even think its logic, just incredibly stupid.

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

Hectic said:
I love it when you try to count.

The White Pele · May 12, 2013

Liam147 said:
To match Rooney's weekly wage, you'd need everyone in the stadium to OT their wage together, and probably multiply it by five.

Essien's calculator?

Brwned · May 12, 2013

Liam147 said:
What people really took issue with was Rooney telling us that we weren't ambitious enough. He might as well have said he's not keen on the colour red.

In reality we all knew it was about him earning (even) more money. It's obscene.

I understand that we all want more, but it's inconsiderate at best to feel that £150k isn't enough and you want £250k, when adding up everyone's wages in the stadium it probably doesn't come to that.

People tend to get greedy when they're paid millions. That's the fault of the money men in football more than the players themselves, IMO. When you're getting paid millions it generally means you'll be surrounded by greedy people trying to "help" you make even more money. As I said in the OP, Keane made it clear that the only reason he stayed at the club is because they paid him the fortune that he deserved. This is a man who stayed at the club for 12 and a half years and played almost 500 games for us. Someone who's undeniably one of the club's biggest legends and most appreciated players. Cantona is many people's boyhood hero and he clearly considered leaving too. Evra's one of our most loved players in the squad and he openly admitted he considered leaving. Surely this should tell you that anyone feeling outraged at the thought of someone wanting to leave our club is probably overreacting just a teeny bit?

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

The Cantona quote is a bit vague IMO, not sure if it really implies that he considered leaving Utd.

Platato · May 12, 2013

Well with any of these situations, you want to measure the club's, coach's and the player's standard and if an agreement can't be reached with the parties, sometimes you just got to let the player go.

I don't like this idea that if we sell Wayne we're fecked. We sold Ronaldo for feck's sake and managed it pretty well. Albeit, it was with SAF at the helm which could potentially mean all the difference. However, he will still be around to advise Moyes as needed and the structure he has left behind is good. Nonetheless, if Wayne wants to go, then let him go. IF he feels concerned about his place in the team and that he won't get he wants, he should leave. It's that simple. Business is business. Once you allow the sentimentality of the situation to override what should happen problems occur.

This may be time for Rooney to have a different challenge. He is entering the latter stages of his career and if what I heard is correct, he just wants to be assured of his place (hence no official transfer request). Fans need to realise players, especially those with little emotional ties to our club will do what they feel is best for their careers. If wayne feels that is no longer United, then so be it. We can discuss his career and what could have been. I don't see the logic in bending over backwards for a player who is unsure of his place. Especially when we have the resources to cope. This isn't 2010. It's 2013 and both Wayne and United need to do what's best for each other.

I don't want the lad to leave but he'll have my blessing if he does. I doubt he'll reach the consistency I always thought he could with us and it concerns me he didn't kick on as much as he has in previous seasons. Things come to an end and this may be the end for Wayne. If it happens, it happens. Manchester United has lost bigger players than Wayne Rooney.

Hectic · May 12, 2013

Liam147 said:
To match Rooney's weekly wage, you'd need everyone in the stadium to OT their wage together, and probably multiply it by five.

Let's say Wayne Rooney gets £200,000 per week. Let's also say there are 70,000 people in the stadium. Liam believes that to match Rooney's income, the 70,000 people in the stadium would have to pool together their weekly wage, and times it by 5.

Now assuming the average person available to watch the match in OT, earns just £5 a week, which to be fair is a pretty alarmingly poor income, well that would total £350,000 when we add it all together. Now we have to times this figure by 5. Yes, that's £1,750,000.

This is with a wage of £5, and we are still about £1.5 million past Wayne's wage. So, even if Liam thought the average person in Old Trafford earned just £5 a week, he'd still be 8 times wrong.

Siorac · May 12, 2013

Liam147 said:
What people really took issue with was Rooney telling us that we weren't ambitious enough.

In reality we all knew it was about him earning (even) more money. It's obscene.

What I don't understand is the vitriol from smaller clubs like Arsenal, when their best player wants to win the league. These people are competitive and want to win.

I took the liberty of cutting some of what you posted.

Rooney's contract wrangling came on the back of two relatively disappointing summers. We lost Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tévez in 2009, two big-name star players (though admittedly Tévez's contribution in his second season was very poor) and brought in Obertan, Valencia, Owen, Smalling and Hernández.

It was not unreasonable for a star player to question the ambition and aims of the club at that point. You might tell fans to keep the faith and trust Sir Alex but players have limited time at the top and it's hard to blame them if they don't wish to stay around for years of crisis and rebuilding.

Why is that? Because as you so wisely said these people are competitive and want to win. At that point, in August 2010, he had genuine reasons to worry about United's prospects, especially as the papers were also full of the debt problems. Rooney is not an economist, he's probably not even a very bright person and it's totally feasible - for me - that he felt that United would end up on a downward slide, like one we're seeing from Inter right now.

So when someone says "we all knew it was about the money" - please allow me to remain sceptical. Fergie himself said it wasn't about money.

Buchan · May 12, 2013

My God, there's some pedants in this thread. I'm sure Liam was making a figure of speech rather than actually believing in the maths of what he posted.

Also, way to miss the point, gents. Rooney is earning astronomical sums of money from our club, and the fact remains that he's not earned it this season (some might say any season since 2010). Rooney is in this predicament through nobody's fault but his own. Name one other club in Europe where the "star" player and highest earner has been marginalised like Rooney has been for us this season. It simply does not happen and Rooney has to make the step up, or leave.

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

nahealai said:
My God, there's some pedants in this thread. I'm sure Liam was making a figure of speech rather than actually believing in the maths of what he posted.

Also, way to miss the point, gents. Rooney is earning astronomical sums of money from our club, and the fact remains that he's not earned it this season (some might say any season since 2010). Rooney is in this predicament through nobody's fault but his own. Name one other club in Europe where the "star" player and highest earner has been marginalised like Rooney has been for us this season. It simply does not happen and Rooney has to make the step up, or leave.

Marginalised, or left out of a couple games with a player in better form/more suited to the task coming in?

If its the latter, then it's happened at Bayern.

Siorac · May 12, 2013

nahealai said:
My God, there's some pedants in this thread. I'm sure Liam was making a figure of speech rather than actually believing in the maths of what he posted.

Also, way to miss the point, gents. Rooney is earning astronomical sums of money from our club, and the fact remains that he's not earned it this season (some might say any season since 2010). Rooney is in this predicament through nobody's fault but his own. Name one other club in Europe where the "star" player and highest earner has been marginalised like Rooney has been for us this season. It simply does not happen and Rooney has to make the step up, or leave.

Robben barely made an impression on Bayern's season until Kroos's injury.
Kaká has been marginalised at Real Madrid ever since they bought him, pretty much.
Fernando Torres.

Also, Rooney hasn't been "marginalised" at all. This is a sensationalist overreaction to being dropped against Real Madrid. He's had an injury-ridden season during which he still made an important contribution to our success.

Buchan · May 12, 2013

Fergus' son said:
Marginalised, or left out of a couple games with a player in better form/more suited to the task coming in?

If its the latter, then it's happened at Bayern.

It's nowt to do with form, mate. If Rooney was left out based on form, he'd barely have played 20 games this season. I firmly believe that Rooney's attitude was a big reason in him being marginalised/left out/dropped/played out of position etc. He hasn't risen to the challenge laid down by Kagawa's and van Persie's signing and is simply going through the motions. If he's trying to prove he deserves a new contract, he's going the wrong way about it.

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

Brwned said:
Why do people react with shock and outrage when it happens? It's bound to be tempting when someone presents the opportunity to you to a) make loads of money, b) live in some of the most spectacular cities in Europe and c) play for one of the biggest clubs in the world. We pay our players ungodly amounts and win lots of titles, if either of those things change then a big portion of our players would instantly leave. I don't have a problem with that because I don't expect them to have the same unconditional love for the club. If they want to leave I'll think they're making the wrong decision but I won't call him a cnut for making a mistake. The contribution they've offered to the club far outweighs one or two poor decisions.

The recent Rooney rumours have shown that the fans are desperate to condemn anyone that even considers leaving. Fans are ready to sever all ties with the player before there's even been the slightest hint of confirmation that he wants to leave. If he has some doubts about his United future and the management have to convince him to stay, I'll be delighted to keep him. Looking at the reaction in the Rooney thread it seems a large portion of our fan base would want us to get rid of him rather than try to convince him to stay, and I can't understand that at all. Regardless of what anyone says about him no longer being "irreplaceable", it's undeniable that selling him would only weaken us and strengthen one of our rivals. He can take Chelsea or City from title challengers to title winners or he could help Madrid win their 10th CL. He is that good. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo both mention him and Scholes in the same breath while Berbatov and Tévez feel he's the best/most complete player he's played with.I'll think he's an idiot for wanting away in the first place but if he eventually changes his mind and realises United's the best place for him then why would anyone want him to leave? I'd be willing to put up with having a idiot in our team provided he continues to help this team be successful and play good football. Loads of players have considered leaving at some point that we love in spite of that. Cantona, Keane, even Evra in the same bloody summer (2010) wanted away. If they threaten to leave just because they're holding the club to ransom I'll still want him to stay. It means he's a greedy prick but then most players are exactly that. That tends to happen when you throw millions at people. In fact Keane considered leaving for exactly that:

In the end we had to twist their arms and/or give them a couple more £m's to convince them to stay. People are right to complain about a lack of loyalty from players but you have to acknowledge the club can show an equal level of disloyalty when it comes to selling players. If you're a top player like van Nistelrooy or Ronaldo we're willing to put up with repeated transfer requests simply because keeping them is the best thing for United. As soon as we decide that keeping Keane/van Nistelrooy/Beckham etc. is no longer in the club's best interests we're absolutely ruthless in shipping them out. There's no hesitation in getting rid of them and in many cases these players are shipped off under a cloud of controversy with the blame laid solely at their doorstep. Even someone like Wes Brown was unceremoniously shipped out after years of loyalty. People expect unconditional loyalty from the player but the club never shows anything like that to its players. The loyalty is always conditional at either end. If Cantona was a Nicky Butt-level player do you think we'd have put up with his antics? He'd have been shipped off without a second thought and the supporters would've fully backed the decision. Ultimately the only reason he stayed is because he was one our most important players and losing him would have severely weakened the club's ability to maintain that level of success.

Some of our greatest and most loved players have considered leaving yet people are jumping at the chance to use rumours as proof that Rooney's this disloyal, money-grabbing cnut of a man that doesn't deserve the the support of our fans. I think it's bizarre. Anyone who wants United to get rid of Rooney simply because he's expressed doubts about how he wants to spend his last few years at the top is being short-sighted and hypocritical, IMO. I for one hope that regardless of what Rooney's thinking now he starts next season as a United player because the combination of qualities he offers is almost unique and he's essential to this United team handling a very difficult transition over the next couple of years.

This is fairly obvious and completely to be expected, players that aren't good enough or are no longer making a significant contribution to the club are going to be shipped out, the club doesn't owe them loyalty, the club pays them wages.

The other way round is a little different, as Utd fans we don't really expect players to leave us because the club is no longer good enough for them. If thats what they imply then we won't believe it, if that's not the reason for them leaving then as fans of the club of course we'll see it as disloyal if a players leaves us for no apparent reason.

Buchan · May 12, 2013

Siorac said:
Robben barely made an impression on Bayern's season until Kroos's injury.
Kaká has been marginalised at Real Madrid ever since they bought him, pretty much.
Fernando Torres.

1. Robben didn't skulk around like Rooney has, though. When he's got his chance, he's taken it emphatically. Arguably player of the tie against Barcelona in the Champions League semi-final and a huge driving-force for Bayern. Compare this with Rooney's shambolic cameo last weekend against Chelsea. Completely un-arsed.

2. Kaka is far from Madrid's main man, nor is he their highest earner. Kaka has been on the periphery for quite a while at Madrid now. Nor could he be accused of sulking, from what I can tell.

3. Torres, again, is far from Chelsea's most important player or their "star" man. No comparison with Torres at Chelsea and Rooney at United.

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

nahealai said:
It's nowt to do with form, mate. If Rooney was left out based on form, he'd barely have played 20 games this season. I firmly believe that Rooney's attitude was a big reason in him being marginalised/left out/dropped/played out of position etc. He hasn't risen to the challenge laid down by Kagawa's and van Persie's signing and is simply going through the motions. If he's trying to prove he deserves a new contract, he's going the wrong way about it.

I think it was a little to do with form with Wayne coming back from injury, and the fact that Welbeck was better suited to performing the specialised role.

Either way, similar things happen at other great clubs.

Siorac · May 12, 2013

nahealai said:
1. Robben didn't skulk around like Rooney has, though. When he's got his chance, he's taken it emphatically. Arguably player of the tie against Barcelona in the Champions League semi-final and a huge driving-force for Bayern. Compare this with Rooney's shambolic cameo last weekend against Chelsea. Completely un-arsed.

2. Kaka is far from Madrid's main man, nor is he their highest earner. Kaka has been on the periphery for quite a while at Madrid now. Nor could he be accused of sulking, from what I can tell.

3. Torres, again, is far from Chelsea's most important player or their "star" man. No comparison with Torres at Chelsea and Rooney at United.

I thought you were talking about the highest earners (players who earn a shedload of money without justifying it). Both Kaká and Torres are among the top 3 at their club, I'm sure. Don't forget that Kaká still happens to be the second most expensive player in the world.

Robben, as far as I'm aware, looked fairly un-arsed more often than not. Comparing a dead rubber league game to a CL semi-final is quite unfair; Rooney fought bloody hard against Real Madrid during the 20 minutes he got.

Yeah, star players sometimes sulk, sometimes they feel they want to leave, sometimes they're not pleased with the direction the club's taking. It's up to the club to judge whether they're still worth the bother or not. In my opinion Rooney is still more than valuable enough for us but if he's desperate to leave, let him go.

antohan · May 12, 2013

Hectic said:
Let's say Wayne Rooney gets £200,000 per week. Let's also say there are 70,000 people in the stadium. Liam believes that to match Rooney's income, the 70,000 people in the stadium would have to pool together their weekly wage, and times it by 5.

Now assuming the average person available to watch the match in OT, earns just £5 a week, which to be fair is a pretty alarmingly poor income, well that would total £350,000 when we add it all together. Now we have to times this figure by 5. Yes, that's £1,750,000.

This is with a wage of £5, and we are still about £1.5 million past Wayne's wage. So, even if Liam thought the average person in Old Trafford earned just £5 a week, he'd still be 8 times wrong.

I like the way you've gone into great pains to elaborate. Should have stopped at match income > attendants total weekly imaginary earnings of "£40K" :drevilsmilie:

Brwned · May 12, 2013

Fergus' son said:
The Cantona quote is a bit vague IMO, not sure if it really implies that he considered leaving Utd.

Cantona's quote himself is very innocent but it's clear the club were aware he had doubts about his next move. Completely different scenario to Rooney in 2010 or Keane in 2000 but still, Cantona leaving was on the cards and that shows that even our biggest legends have had a decision to make in tough moments.

Sir Alex said:
It's nowt to do with form, mate. If Rooney was left out based on form, he'd barely have played 20 games this season. I firmly believe that Rooney's attitude was a big reason in him being marginalised/left out/dropped/played out of position etc. He hasn't risen to the challenge laid down by Kagawa's and van Persie's signing and is simply going through the motions. If he's trying to prove he deserves a new contract, he's going the wrong way about it.

Risen to the challenge of Kagawa? He's outperformed him all season. If Kagawa takes his game up a notch then you can talk about him not rising to the challenge but at the moment there isn't much of a challenge, really. Kagawa's the one who gets stuck out wide because he's deemed worse than Rooney in his best position. If anything it's Kagawa who hasn't yet risen to the challenge.

As for form, well, it's worth reminding people that Cantona was hardly in top form throughout his (considerably shorter) spell here...

Manutd.com (describing the chip v Sunderland) said:
15 years ago, on 21 December 1996, Eric Cantona was out of touch and out of form with some pundits prepared to write off the fabulous Frenchman.

The shrewdest of signings from Leeds had already ended an 11-game goal drought in the Barclays Premier League with a penalty but proved he was back to his best with a stunning strike that had the hallmark of genius stamped all over it.

LR7 · May 12, 2013

Brwned said:
Risen to the challenge of Kagawa? He's outperformed him all season. If Kagawa takes his game up a notch then you can talk about him not rising to the challenge but at the moment there isn't much of a challenge, really. Kagawa's the one who gets stuck out wide because he's deemed worse than Rooney in his best position. If anything it's Kagawa who hasn't yet risen to the challenge.

As for form, well, it's worth reminding people that Cantona was hardly in top form throughout his (considerably shorter) spell here...

Somehow people have rewritten this season in their minds and convinced themselves Kagawa has been fantastic whilst Rooney has been shit. Rooney's handful of poor performances are being completely blown out of proportion. I can also think of several games in which Kagawa has failed to have an impact and been subbed off. Kagawa has only completed athe full 90mins once more than Anderson this season but it doesn't get blown out of proportion.

Rooney's season

Kagawa's season

Im not discrediting Kagawa here because he's not had an easy first season, but this is why we will miss Rooney if we sell him. Even in a season that most people are describing as below-par there is still a near constant flow of goals and assists. Kagawa has shown promise and does look a classy little player but he hasn't shown he can fill the void that would be left if we sold Rooney.
Both players got injured. Rooney three or four shorter ones and Kagawa one long one but at this level you don't just need neat turns and touches you need your big players to step up and impact games, Kagawa could do that but hasn't done that enough yet, Rooney does that. When the entire team are playing poorly, which has been the case on a number of occasions this season (even though people will spin it to make it look like Rooney alone had a bad game), Rooney is one of those players that can get you a goal that wins a game.

Why do people want us to weaken ourselves by getting rid of one of our main threats?

Nick 0208 Ldn · May 12, 2013

If Rooney is attempting to secure guarantees concerning his use by the club and we aren't willing to oblige [rightly], the only other card to play would be a rise in his salary and i don't think Rooney should be getting even close to equal terms of the 2010 deal.

The weight of convincing the other rests heaviest with Wayne and the existence of that is certainly debatable.

Devil may care · May 12, 2013

I think a lot of the hate toward Rooney is based off how his initial attempt to leave was handled, it pissed off and offended a lot of fans, so now he may be asking to leave again is bound to bring those feelings back to the surface.

My view is that on this occasion IF there is substance to the stories, then his reason for wanting to leave is that he doesn't want to continue on in the jack of all trades role, at 27 he wants to play in what he feels is his best position week in and week out. If that is the case and Moyes decides he doesn't want to accommodate this wish, then I'd wish him luck and understand his choice.

bosnian_red · May 12, 2013

Great post brwned; I've been trying to say things like that in the other Rooney thread. People expect Rooney and others of his like to show unconditional love towards united, and spend their whole careers here, regardless of if they're united fans or not. Rooney gave us 10 years of fantastic football, and was arguably our most important player these last 10 years, in what has been one of the most successful periods in our history. He's led united to his 5th title now I think, alongside a champions league title, a few other finals and other trophies. If he respectfully wants to leave for a new challenge, go to a different country, a different club before he retires, why should we all immediately start hating him and want him out? He will be remembered as one of our greatest players, no matter what happens, and for that we shouldn't forget all he's done for us and be so quick to turn against him.

Also I think Rooneys many injuries this season are clouding people's judgement on how he's done. He's had a few poor games, no doubt about that, but to say he's been shite all season is laughable. You can say he's had a below par season, but that is mostly because of its stop-start nature all season long, with various injuries not giving him a good chance to get a run in the team going. It just shows how good of a player Rooney is, when he gets 16 goals and around the same number of assists, and yet people say he's had a poor year. People must expect over 30 goals and 15 assists every season or something, even with the other players at the club.

bosnian_red · May 12, 2013

Devil may care said:
I think a lot of the hate toward Rooney is based off how his initial attempt to leave was handled, it pissed off and offended a lot of fans, so now he may be asking to leave again is bound to bring those feelings back to the surface.

My view is that on this occasion IF there is substance to the stories, then his reason for wanting to leave is that he doesn't want to continue on in the jack of all trades role, at 27 he wants to play in what he feels is his best position week in and week out. If that is the case and Moyes decides he doesn't want to accommodate this wish, then I'd wish him luck and understand his choice.

I agree, and this time around if what's been said is true about him requesting a transfer, he's gone about it in a much better way. Sounds to me like he just went to SAF and asked if he could leave, not depending anything and nothing like looking for a pay rise. I genuinely believe he just wants a new challenge, somewhere where he'd more then likely be appreciated more and will be the main man, instead of filling in for 4 different positions every season, and being undervalued by the fans.

Fergus' son · May 12, 2013

What's the big deal wether we hate him after he leaves or not?

Nick 0208 Ldn · May 12, 2013

bosnian_red said:
I agree, and this time around if what's been said is true about him requesting a transfer, he's gone about it in a much better way.

Ah, the leak it to the Daily Mail during Fergie's retirement week approach, shucks mister i've got to take my hat off to ya so i do.

That'sHernandez · May 12, 2013

Hectic said:
Let's say Wayne Rooney gets £200,000 per week. Let's also say there are 70,000 people in the stadium. Liam believes that to match Rooney's income, the 70,000 people in the stadium would have to pool together their weekly wage, and times it by 5.

Now assuming the average person available to watch the match in OT, earns just £5 a week, which to be fair is a pretty alarmingly poor income, well that would total £350,000 when we add it all together. Now we have to times this figure by 5. Yes, that's £1,750,000.

This is with a wage of £5, and we are still about £1.5 million past Wayne's wage. So, even if Liam thought the average person in Old Trafford earned just £5 a week, he'd still be 8 times wrong.

Hectic, making unnecessary corrections necessary.

Mad Winger · May 12, 2013

Hectic said:
Let's say Wayne Rooney gets £200,000 per week. Let's also say there are 70,000 people in the stadium. Liam believes that to match Rooney's income, the 70,000 people in the stadium would have to pool together their weekly wage, and times it by 5.

Now assuming the average person available to watch the match in OT, earns just £5 a week, which to be fair is a pretty alarmingly poor income, well that would total £350,000 when we add it all together. Now we have to times this figure by 5. Yes, that's £1,750,000.

This is with a wage of £5, and we are still about £1.5 million past Wayne's wage. So, even if Liam thought the average person in Old Trafford earned just £5 a week, he'd still be 8 times wrong.

Mockney · May 12, 2013

Very good OP.

Brwned said:
... is being short-sighted and hypocritical, IMO

Football fans? Never.

Add in knee-jerk, short tempered and over emotional.

Players having doubts about their future

If Rooney wants to leave should we...

Thank him for his service but move him on for the good of the team?

Sell him for being a greedy, ungrateful, disloyal twat?

Do everything within the club's power to keep him here?

Wait for Rooney to realise himself that United's the best place for him?

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