They're very difficult players to compare as they bring very different qualities to the team. The main difference IMO is that Nani can be very peripheral when he's not on his game but Rooney is still at the heart of everything we do even when he's not at his best. A lot of this is down to the positions they play but there's more to it than that.
Nani
- Thread starter Kaush949
- Start date
I would say you could reverse that statement and its more accurate. Wayne goes on spells where he is very ineffective. The last spell from Nani I can remember was after the Carragher massacre.
Not sure what you're saying, to be honest. You think Nani is still aninfluential player when he's playing badly? And you think Rooney is less influential when he's not playing well himself? Surely last night's game is a great example to counter that latter idea?
I'm also amazed you need to back as far as the Carragher incident for a dip in form. It was only just over 3 games back when he'd spent a month or two way below par.
I'm also amazed you need to back as far as the Carragher incident for a dip in form. It was only just over 3 games back when he'd spent a month or two way below par.
I'm sorry Pogue but you've used that argument before and it's absolute nonsense in all fairness. Rooney has plenty of bad spells where he is certainly is NOT at the heart of everything we do, in fact, he's often a hindrance when off form.
Wouldn't expect you to agree though, I mean, after Nani's performance last night in which he basically wrapped the game up for us in the first half you still didn't give him MOTM.
I find it hard to work out if you're blinded by your love of Rooney when you make these comments, or if after all this time there is still something about Nani that you just can't bring yourself to love.
I don't "love" either player, believe it or not. I just have a different opinion on their respective importance to the team. Mad, eh?
Huh? When off form Rooney has his fair share of games in which he looks like a pub player and has the first touch of Andy Caroll under influence.
EDIT: in fact, when he has one of those spells again, this has been often discussed and documented on here.
Some saying he's a typical confidence player and after a goal you'll see his touch and the rest of his football pick up etc, others saying they can't understand how such a technically gifted player can be so unbelievably rubbish, etc etc.
EDIT: in fact, when he has one of those spells again, this has been often discussed and documented on here.
Some saying he's a typical confidence player and after a goal you'll see his touch and the rest of his football pick up etc, others saying they can't understand how such a technically gifted player can be so unbelievably rubbish, etc etc.
It's not mad no, but there is certainly something about Nani when it comes to you.
Last night, he created the first goal from nothing, scored the second, created the third, put Welbeck clean through when he should have made it 4, and played the "pre-assist" for Berba's goal, the pass that basically made it.
And still.... Pogue's MOTM, "Danny Welbeck".
I'm saying the same thing you are, but the other way round. I'd say that when both players are not on their game, Nani is still more effective, as we've seen in recent months when both have had dips in form. Rooney can still be influential when not on song, but sometimes he can also be completely invisible. Nani I find doesn't slump to the depths Rooney does, which is why Rooney's inconsistency is more of an issue between the two players, he goes from bigger highs to bigger lows. Last night's game was an example of how Rooney can still be productive when not at his best, but also example of how consistent Nani is between games, he carries his form over a season much better than Rooney does, barring freak injuries.
I went back to that time, not because there wasn't anything since then, but because it was a longer slump in form, and during that time he was playing at a lower level then he has this season.
There's been loads of times when Rooney is not on form and is nowhere near the heart of eveything we do. I can't understand that, when he is off form, and truly off form, it's usually the biggest thing we can see, because the difference is so clear. We've discussed it a fair bit this season as in some games during his drought it was pointless keeping him on the pitch. How many times have we said that about Nani?
I thought Welbeck was the only United player who kept up the first-half level of performance after half-time, so gave him the nod on that basis.
Nani was the pick of the bunch in the first-half but Welbeck wasn't far behind. A close-run thing, though. You'll note that I had Nani down second and Rooney didn't even make my top three. Which doesn't really fit with your "blinded by love" theory. Not that it matters. Shock, horror, people having different opinions in a MOTM thread. Whatever next?
Who is this "we" you're referring to?
Rooney's probably the only player in our entire squad that Fergie will keep picking no matter how long his dip in form. Yes, Nani, included.
I'm inclined to think there's a reason for this and I'm inclined to think that, as usual, Fergie's making the correct decision in doing so.
We, as in posters....Not everyone collectively, but posters who have discussed before, what I'm discussing now.
Rooney being the only player Fergie picks regardless of dip in form is irrelevant and doesn't answer my post. My point is this, how often in the last two seasons have you said, we should sub Nani off? Because it's a damn sight less than Rooney.
Rooney being the only player Fergie picks regardless of dip in form is irrelevant and doesn't answer my post. My point is this, how often in the last two seasons have you said, we should sub Nani off? Because it's a damn sight less than Rooney.
Maybe that's because he feels he has to play Rooney into form?
Maybe that's because Rooney knocks on SAF's door everyday demanding to play in every single game, something I've never before heard from a player under SAF. SAF has often bowed down to Wayne and let him play in meaningless games because of this.
Or maybe it's because he knows how Rooney would react to being dropped?
One things for sure, there have been times when Rooney being on the pitch has been a hindrance to us because he's been so off his game.
I don't often say it about either of them because they're both capable of doing something out of nothing. In the last couple of years possibly Rooney because of his awful, long slump in form, but since he's returned from that Nani would shade it. Because almost everything goes through Rooney he doesn't drift out of the game in the same way as a winger can, IMO.
It's irrelevant. We aren't discussing who is more consistent or better based on Fergie's selection process. That was never part of the argument and doesn't really say anything. I'd imagine Carrick is one of the first names on the sheet right now. So?
How is it irrelevant? It shows that Si Alex Ferguson - the greatest manager in the history of the game - thinks Rooney is a player worth picking even when he's not on form. An opinion he doesn't seem to have about Nani. How on earth is that irrelevant in a discussion about which player offers more when not on form?
Regarding your last question, I'm not even sure how to answer it. Over the last couple of months, though, there's been plenty of times when I think we could have done better if we'd played someone else instead of an out of form Nani.
The problem was that Young, Valencia and Park were all struggling at the same time. If Nani was dropped/subbed who could replace him?
We didn't have an equivalent of Berbatov waiting in the wings, who wasn't getting a sniff even when Rooney was struggling in front of goal. And no, I never advocated dropping Rooney for Berbatov. Did anyone?
This is my point also. It's rare we have to say it about either of them, because rarely do their 'lows' reach a level where they shouldn't be on the pitch. I'd say Rooney has been in this situation more in recent times because of his slump, Nani tends to not go through these spells anywhere near as long, and it doesn't effect him as much as it does Wayne. Since the return you would say Nani if you had to choose, but that's not because he's been off form, but because Rooney arguably has edged it in terms of their 'highs'. Rooney's high is equal or greater to Nani's, but Nani's lows do not go to the length of Wayne's, and his consistency is far greater. This is why I have trouble with the initial statement, it should be the other way round.
I'm not sure we will see a common ground on this Pogue, we seem to do this every few months.
Then you've misinterpreted the initial statement. It's about how "low" their form dips or how long it dips for. My point was entirely about their overall contribution when they're not playing well. Last night was a perfect example of this. Rooney wasn't at his best and Nani was but I'd imagine that Rooney saw more of the ball and was more heavily involved in our attacking football overall than Nani was.
As I said when i first made this point, a lot of this is down to the position they play. There's more to it than that, though. When Nanis having a poor game you'll never seem him as influential as Rooney was last night.
You think Rooney saw more of the ball and was more heavily involved in our attacking football than Nani last night?
I disagree with that. Yesterday wasn't a 'poor' game for Rooney though. When he's truly having a poor game, he can be completely invisible.
Anyone remember which season Rooney had that spell where he was so horribly awful. It wasn't just that he didn't score goals - he looked like he couldn't control the ball. It lasted 4.5 games or so - he was dreadful
indeed.
Yesterday Rooney played alright, nothing on his QPR performance but a decent game non-the-less.
He certainly wasn't.
Just take a look at the chalkboards. Nani had more passes, and certainly plenty more successful passes in around the Fulham area.
Rooney was pretty poor yesterday to be fair. He wasn't involved as much as he normally is, and he was more wasteful in posession and had a few bad touches here and there. Not terrible like he can be, just not as good as he "normally" is.
For me though, the main difference between Nani and Rooney is that when off form, Nani is still more likely to create something out of nothing / on his own. Rooney, although he might be more involved in the game when not playing well, is much easier to replace when he's playing badly. Finding someone who can still pull that rabbit out of the hat like Nani can, no matter the rest of his performance, is much more difficult to replace.
For me though, the main difference between Nani and Rooney is that when off form, Nani is still more likely to create something out of nothing / on his own. Rooney, although he might be more involved in the game when not playing well, is much easier to replace when he's playing badly. Finding someone who can still pull that rabbit out of the hat like Nani can, no matter the rest of his performance, is much more difficult to replace.
It doesn't make sense. The guy was nearly involved in all of our goals, how could he not be our most productive attacking player yesterday? Not to mention he just was anyway, even without the goals, he was on another planet to everyone else out there.
Yeah, they both completed 38 passes (Rooney's completion % was higher, mind you)
Rooney also took more shots and made more tackles.
A bit random but Valencia completed more passes than either of them and Welbeck passed the ball the most accurately of anyone.
EDIT; Carrick's passing stats were ridiculously good. Giggs none too shabby either.
The bolded part doesn't compute with "Rooney was pretty poor yesterday to be fair".
Rooney certainly wasn't "poor", not even close. He had a decent game without reaching the heights he can.
He wasn't so wasteful by the way, pass completion was 90%.
You have different stats to me. I'm going off opta stats that has the following:
Nani 39/45
Rooney 37/41
Welbeck 25/27
Nani most involved as suspected with most completed passes, Nani also has 6 completed passes into the box, Rooney just 1, Welbeck 0.
Come on you can't be serious here. Who cares about his completed passes and shot count for either of them. Nani was directly involved in four of our goals. Rooney wasn't close to his attacking performance or involvement yesterday.
Poor wording on my part. Based on your previous post, I think we agree on his performance level. He was OK, not bad, but not as good you would expect from him.
When I said he was wasteful in posession I didn't mean his passing game, more dribbles that didn't come off and poor touches that led to him losing the ball.
Yeah I think this part of my post was most telling:
Come on you can't be serious here. Who cares about his completed passes and shot count for either of them. Nani was directly involved in four of our goals. Rooney wasn't close to his attacking performance or involvement yesterday.
Isn't Pogue one of the first on here to laugh off stats as being meaningless at times?
What do those Opta stats have for Valencia, out of interest?
Guardian chalkboard has him 40/50, with 3 completed in the box and 1 assist. How many MOTM nominations did he get? Did he even make any top threes?
I had him in my top 3 but of course Nani as number one. having anyone else as motm in yesterdays game is pretty ridiculous tbh. also i agree with hectic. when Nani is off form he can still produce some piece of magic. rooney rarely does im. oh and Nani didn't have "2 months way off form." but I'm not surprised that this was coming from you.
38/44. Just one completed in the box, the assist.
The other 2 were close, but not quite "into" the box, passed onto the edge.
Still, not close to Nani's.
Pogue speaks sense when it comes to most things, but regarding Nani I really don't understand the logic at times. Genuinely seems to just dislike him or disregard him.
Welbeck ahead of him as MoTM and now resorting to passing stats from last night? Odd.
Welbeck ahead of him as MoTM and now resorting to passing stats from last night? Odd.
If you're going to put words in quotes they should be, you know, quotes.
I said "a month or two way below par". Starting with the Norwich game on October 1st (when Nani was substituted after a really dire display) I would say it was, at the earliest, Benfica when he started to turn the corner. On November 22nd. Definitely played well against Newcastle on November 26th. Five days short of a full two months after the Norwich game.
Been onwards and upwards since then but yes, he was out for form for "a month or two" by any reasonable definition.
When I watched the game live I didn't have Nani as MotM but when I watched an hours worth of highlights he looked clear MotM.
Funny you should say that. I also watched the "Football First" highlights and thought the same thing. I had him down as having a poor second half at first viewing but watching the highlights he looked better than I remembered.
Anyhoo, I think everyone agrees he was terrific last night. As I said when I first posted in this thread after the game, I think the last couple of games have seen him simplify his game a lot get involved in a lot more one-touch passing than usual. Which makes us so much better going forwards as a team.
I don't think Ashley Young is a patch on Nani, in terms of individual talent, but when we started the season so strongly it was his unselfish, simple passing and movement that helped tear teams apart. If Nani can keep combining that sort of football with the individual brilliance that only he is capable of he'll get his game to a whole new level IMO.