You. Out.
(I'm actually not) Blaming Moyes for transfers
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
You. Out.
Whats the mood of United fans who live near Old Trafford? Are they getting itchy and busily taking aim on whom on blame for the itch?
The only part of me itching is my brain after reading Rory's posts in this thread.
I can't remember the last time I saw an argument stretch 4 pages... all the whilst everyone is seemingly, pretty much in agreement with each other....
It's like a 2 Ronnies sketch
Moyes wouldn't need to scout Fellaini and Baines since he knows them better than anyone, so I don't see why it's being assumed that they're SAF targets that Moyes is just happily going along with. I highly doubt it.
I'd possibly agree with the Cesc/Thiago links which were quite strong and maybe the recent Modric and Ozil rumours who we know are players that SAF liked. As others have pointed out though, it's pretty impossible to say with any degree of certainty.
I'd possibly agree with the Cesc/Thiago links which were quite strong and maybe the recent Modric and Ozil rumours who we know are players that SAF liked. As others have pointed out though, it's pretty impossible to say with any degree of certainty.
Who cares just as along as we sign somebody who can play in the middle of the park I will be happy. Its been too long since we bought someone for that position.
Unbelievable.
Brwned probably regrets starting this thread.
Moyes is not to blame, end of.
If in two years down the line we are mediocre and not winning anything, Moyes will be to blame.
Brwned probably regrets starting this thread.
Moyes is not to blame, end of.
If in two years down the line we are mediocre and not winning anything, Moyes will be to blame.
Mongses. 
Too funny.
Too funny.
What a trainwreck.
Nobody was saying we would be spending £150 million, but alot of people were thinking because of the management change that United would get more players than usual. What most people expected was atleast a midfielder or two. I think spending £70m-£80m would have been a realistic prospect for United. We also expected that some of the squad would be cleaned out.
There was/is alot to be sorted this window
-Rooney situation: What is up with that ? Does he want to leave, why ? We don't want to sell him, but we also don't want to give him a new contract ? If he stays, what would be his role, is he still commited enough.... nothing has really been cleared out on this situation.
-Nani: Will he stay or go ? We heared some rumours Moyes has plans with him and he would get a new contract, when is this going to happen ?
-Anderson: Has been a disappointment every year, most people expected him to be sold and replaced with a new midfield signing.
-Macheda, Bebe, both don't really have a future at our club, why are they still here, why haven't they been sold ?
-Scholes retired, we all expected him to be replaced by a new midfield signing.
Given that, most people expected 2 new midfielders and another offensive signing if Rooney and/or Nani would leave, and maybay another defender or leftback was to expected aswell. That is 3 to 4 new players that most people expected. There have been plenty of players available, we didn't sign a single one, while other clubs have done their business already weeks ago. And the excuse of the new management is stupid, because City have goten a new manager, Real Madrid have goten a new manager and both have done their deals already weeks ago (and the managers were signed on later than Moyes). So really i don't know what Manchester United have been spending their time on, if all the hopes were on Fabregas or Thiago coming through, it is pretty amateuristic, if they've had other targets, i'd like to know what is up with them, and i wonder why we haven't made a move for them. Seems to me we are only making a move for Fellaini right now, why wait so long ? What is the point ? Something didn't go right for us this summer, the smallest child should be able to see this.
It is not like Manchester United really didn't need anything sorted, they needed alot, and nothing has been sorted so far. If i look at clubs like Tottenham for example, i can only envy their capacity of getting things done. They have brought all their targets in, Bale is still there, if he stays they will have a killer team, if he goes they can expect €100m from Real, that is getting things sorted ! Moyes please take note and learn ! If you need somebody, get him, and don't waste time around, trying to nible off a few £m....
In fairness I've seen hardly anyone blaming Moyes (maybe they have on here, I haven't noticed), but I've seen shit loads of people blaming Woodward.
Personally, if anything's embarrassing about this whole thing, it's how large portions of our fanbase pretend to have inside knowledge on the workings of transfer, when they know next to nothing about them, and subsequently blame the guy who Manchester United saw fit to do the job.
Personally, if anything's embarrassing about this whole thing, it's how large portions of our fanbase pretend to have inside knowledge on the workings of transfer, when they know next to nothing about them, and subsequently blame the guy who Manchester United saw fit to do the job.
The thing is we desperately need a midfielder, possibly two. Seems like Moyes accepts that, but from everything we gather there has been a very, very short list of possibilities. I'm sure there's more than two or three midfield players who can improve us, but it appears our net hasn't been cast far and wide at all. That's the struggle.
I agree, my only point is that it's no different to last year. Arguably it was more alarming last year, as Tom is now an 'established' England midfielder? But really it's not new.
What do you find embarrassing about the thread title or the topic? It's discussing something that is taking place amongst United fans. If the fact that is taking place is embarrassing to you then this would be a perfect thread to discuss that in.
I didn't invent a theory. I re-stated what we've already been told by those in charge. The Chief Exec takes care of the money side of things - as said by Sir Alex multiple times throughout his time at United and then alluded to by Moyes during the Fábregas bids. We buy players we've scouted over a number of months - as Sir Alex has said numerous times, as Moyes has said numerous times at Everton, as Wenger has said numerous times at Arsenal and as practically every manager at a top club will have said at one point or another. Moyes will not have had time to do this with some players he's personally interested in - common sense due to time restraints. We look first and foremost at British and PL-proven players - common sense if you look at the players we brought in. At least 2/3 fit that profile. That's it. That's all. I don't know anything about how good Woodward, Moyes, Gill, the scouts, the Glazer's etc. are nor do I know what their role is. I just know what they've said and what we've done in the past, and I think it fits right in with what we're doing now.
Not at all, no. The only thing I mentioned about shiny new signings was in reference to things like this:
I don't think Top is a clown, a teenager or clueless about the game. Not in the slightest. I just think he sees transfers as a lot of fun and finds the whole thing very exciting. Shiny new toys are fun and exciting. I don't see that as being condescending it's just I see that as how they're perceived. Some people enjoy that side of things more than others. In addition to that they can also give people the satisfaction of adding quality to the squad and addressing issues - I think that applies to everyone. I was just saying that if you're feeling like that excitement is lacking then it's worth remembering that we've got stacks of quality up front that we've yet to see anywhere near full flow and that itself is pretty mouthwatering if you take a step back and imagine all those permutations. That excitement can be found in other places.
I didn't get excited about van Persie and was more surprised than anything. Didn't think we needed him and didn't think they would ever sell. I was excited to see him in the team as the season wore on but I don't get particularly excited about someone maybe becoming a United player. Once I've seen how they fit in and act as a United player then I get excited to see them in games but before then? Not so much.
No doubt he's seen hundreds of players that are potentially good enough for United but I don't think anyone just walks into a new team and thinks "I liked the look of him a few months back, I'll just go out and get him". I imagine they'll want to look into things in a bit more depth even for the well known players. They'll already know how good the player is but where he fits in and what his mentality is like in various circumstances? I don't think that can be figured out from a few games.
Which is the thing that worries me, this is a problem we have all known for years, and the club does really nothing to sort it out.
Lets just say, our midfield last season wasn't brilliant, and we sure as hell didn't win the title because of it. Their were many other factors which resultated in us having a good season, not sure about whether they will all go for us, like last season. For one i expect our rivals to improve quite a bit on their performance from last season.
Anyway the midfield is still the area to improve, and if not for the PL, than atleast for the CL, we should be improving it.
you're welcome. thought he's a newly promoted, 'till I saw the tagline.
Finally a partner for Carrick in CM
Spoiler alert devilish: Apollo Creed died in Rocky 4 
Damn, this was a trainwreck on page 2 and 3
mongses, look what you've done!
mongses, look what you've done!
I can't blame Moyes for not making any transfer, because for all we know we can do alright with these players. Anyway, I don't find valid the reason people mention here that he came here only in July (officially). So did Pellegrini, Mourinho and Ancelotti. AVB came last season at Spurs and signed Vertonghen and Dembele. Okay we don't have the unlimited funds these teams have (bar Spurs who aren't as rich as us) but we are pretty wealthy and Moyes wasn't that he came from moon, he was a manager on EPL for more than a decade. He acknowledged that we need midfielders but yet he didn't sign a midfielder (for all we know we have money, but there is also a slim possibility that Woodward is lying). If we get problems in midfield than Moyes should be blamed IMO.
Do you think Villas-Boas was the one who chose to get Vertonghen rather than those involved at Spurs identifying him well before he was even in charge? Don't you think it was likely that Vertonghen fit the profile for the type of signing Spurs would make and they scouted him extensively while Redknapp was there (and possibly before)? Ancelotti has said before that he was simply "given" players while at Milan and he - as the coach, nothing more - was given the task of fitting them into the team. Milan have been doing this since Berlusconi arrived. He's undoubtedly doing the same at Madrid. Moyes and United is different because the hierarchy is different but I think we're closer to the European model than seems to be suggested. Even in England now very few managers are the ones who have total control over who the club signs, and even when that was widespread there were very few managers who had any involvement in the negotiation or financial side of transfers. That's where I'm saying it makes no sense to criticise Moyes. If he has any involvement in us failing to get Fábregas then it would be through him saying to Woodward "we're only going to spend x amount on him, don't go above that" - we won't know either way if that took place. It's highly unlikely he had anything to do with how much we bid to begin with yet I've seen him getting flak for even that.
I don't exactly know if AVB wanted to sign Vertonghen or not, but I think that he made some interviews that he's feeling comfortable at Spurs and is having freedom and so. My point was that we see managers taking clubs every year, but that doesn't stop them from signing players. Mourinho in his first season at Chelsea signed a lot of players, he signed this year that Dutch player. He signed Ozil and Khedira for Madrid in his first season there. Then we have the likes of Pellegrini, Ancelotti (at Madrid) or Blanc. I understand that these are not the best examples cause they are clubs that have more money than us but still a lot of managers find players in their first season. Pep for example now signed Thiago while in his first season at Barca he got Pique, Alves and Hleb. We see these kind of examples everytime (Conte, Benitez at first season at Liverpool etc). So yep I think that Moyes has enough time (almost 2 months officially and almost 3 unofficially) to find the targets. Yet we have seen an almost absurd bid for Fabregas and bids for his ex club duos. As I said I don't want to judge him before we get results cause I think that he knows much better than us for the club and probably he really think that Fellaini would be a great signing (if I have to speculate I don't think that this is the case, cause we could have done the deal a month ago if he really was a primary target). But if we sign only him (or even worse no-one) and then we'll see problems in midfield that ultimately cost us, then I don't agree that saying Moyes was for only two (three) months is a really valid excuse.
I agree with you that the manager doesn't choose how much we pay for a player. What I think (again is speculation of course) is that the manager have the plan on which players we are interested and how much important they are for our squad. Then I think Woodward decides how much we pay. Based on this (which can be only my imagination) the bid for Fabregas was either planned poor by Woodward or Moyes didn't think that he is really that important for the team. I don't know about Thiago cause we don't have much official things, but based on his words, I don't find a good idea to not try getting him, especially considering that we were interested for him in the past.
As I said in an another thread, for this summer I think that Moyes is going either for players who were really brilliant at EPL (Cesc) or players he really know (Fellaini). I don't agree with this and think that for every success you have to make risky decisions, and while no-risk decisions are ok, rarely they give you the needed success. Anyway, we'll see in the end of the season when we can judge the entire signing/no signing and the overall United under Moyes management better.
Moyes will have told Ed Woodward who he wants, end of. Gill sorted the transfers for Sir Alex. Also other clubs know they are dealing with a new CE and manager at Manchester United. They will not be as in awe of Sir Alex and Gill had a good reputation. Woodward is inexperience at signing players, but Gill was in same boat when he took over from Peter Kenyon.
I haven't seen much evidence of a pre-meditated plan so far this window. I said in another thread a while back that I was of the belief that a list of targets is usually compiled well in advance of the window (like the Lucas/Hazard/Kagawa talk starting months before the window last year) - and we would usually go into a window having an idea of whether the player was interested and/or club wished to sell.
I have seen little to suggest that we had players identified who we knew were interested in coming here. It seems we have started from scratch in the window, which would have probably put us on the back-foot. Either that or players who had expressed a willingness to come here have changed their mind since the window opened (Thiago, Cesc). Usually, when a club submits an official bid for a player, especially a big club with a big money offer, one would have thought we don't have to still clear such a hurdle like 'does the player actually want to join us'.
I have seen little to suggest that we had players identified who we knew were interested in coming here. It seems we have started from scratch in the window, which would have probably put us on the back-foot. Either that or players who had expressed a willingness to come here have changed their mind since the window opened (Thiago, Cesc). Usually, when a club submits an official bid for a player, especially a big club with a big money offer, one would have thought we don't have to still clear such a hurdle like 'does the player actually want to join us'.
Surely the plan was obvious
A targets Fabregas, Ronaldo, Bale
Of which they decided Fabregas was realistic, and the others probably didn't get much beyond sniffing around
B target Thiago
Before deciding he wouldn't fit us
Fallback/safety net Fellaini and Baines
Thiago has stated that we didnt try to sign him.
I don't think you can really point the finger at anyone as we simply don't know the level of involvement. Did Moyes give Woodward a list of priorities early in the summer with Woodward then dealing with it from there, or have we been developing targets late in to the summer making it harder to do the bids etc. Plus we don't know if there have been other bids behind the scenes.
What I would say is personally the scouting over the past few years in respect of midfielders seems questionable. I find it hard to believe that having known for a good few seasons that we were in need of a midfielder than we've not been able to identify anyone from a smaller club able to step up, seeing as we seemingly have caps that we will spend on players.
Although it's true we have tended to buy within the premier league the fact that a good amount of the current team, De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Kagawa, and many others have been bought from outside the league suggests to me we're happy to bring in foreign based players even if there is a preference for PL based players.
I know Moyes will obviously want to see his own players but he's seemingly been very happy to work with Zaha and he decided to take on the right back we were trialing before he came. I personally don't think our scouts would identify players that he wouldn't rate if say SAF had given his approval. So whilst we don't know what other bids we've tried to make, the fact that we've gone for Fabregas and now Fellaini would suggest to me that we don't have those targets in place. As I said it's just surprising given it's been the one clear weak area for a few seasons now.
The bid for the left back also seems odd to me. Regardless of whether we need Baines or not I'm not sure why we've waited so long to make another bid and if we are interested in Shaw why we've gone in after he signed a long term deal.
But all in all if we end up signing Fellani I don't think it would be anything to be upset over and I doubt anyone will. He's not for me a player who would seriously take us up a level but he does provide some extra steel that will be particularly useful if Carrick gets injured/needs a rest and his height adds a dynamic to the squad. Then will a full season to implement his own scouting methods and targets hopefully next summer we'll see some benefits from that. Getting no one in though would be worrying as we definitely need cover for Carrick at the very least.
What I would say is personally the scouting over the past few years in respect of midfielders seems questionable. I find it hard to believe that having known for a good few seasons that we were in need of a midfielder than we've not been able to identify anyone from a smaller club able to step up, seeing as we seemingly have caps that we will spend on players.
Although it's true we have tended to buy within the premier league the fact that a good amount of the current team, De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Kagawa, and many others have been bought from outside the league suggests to me we're happy to bring in foreign based players even if there is a preference for PL based players.
I know Moyes will obviously want to see his own players but he's seemingly been very happy to work with Zaha and he decided to take on the right back we were trialing before he came. I personally don't think our scouts would identify players that he wouldn't rate if say SAF had given his approval. So whilst we don't know what other bids we've tried to make, the fact that we've gone for Fabregas and now Fellaini would suggest to me that we don't have those targets in place. As I said it's just surprising given it's been the one clear weak area for a few seasons now.
The bid for the left back also seems odd to me. Regardless of whether we need Baines or not I'm not sure why we've waited so long to make another bid and if we are interested in Shaw why we've gone in after he signed a long term deal.
But all in all if we end up signing Fellani I don't think it would be anything to be upset over and I doubt anyone will. He's not for me a player who would seriously take us up a level but he does provide some extra steel that will be particularly useful if Carrick gets injured/needs a rest and his height adds a dynamic to the squad. Then will a full season to implement his own scouting methods and targets hopefully next summer we'll see some benefits from that. Getting no one in though would be worrying as we definitely need cover for Carrick at the very least.
The most mystifying part of this summer would be if the rumour is true that we did not even try for Thiago because Moyes was unsure about him. For 20 million the guy is a brilliant signing. If we did try hard and he still preferred Bayern, then fair enough.
In response to this point, I think its pertinent to point out that we definitely appear to try to go for premiership proven in the spine of the side... therefore goalkeeper, centre back, midfielder and forwards have (generally) come from inside the league. There genuinely haven't been that many emerging central midfielders in the league in the last few years (barring Wilshere who is not available... yet!). The full backs and winger can come from all over the place, although premiership proven is a bonus. If the spine cannot be sorted from inside the league we have been a lot more hit and miss with the signings and therefore have tended to do a fair few punts.
From your list you can say that the twins (not spine) were a bit of a punt and did surprise with how quickly they emerged. Neither Evra (not spine) or Vidic came with a particularly high price tag and could have been considered punts in that we already had established players in those positions at the time. De Gea was a little different as we had tried our proven player, Foster, and it hadn't worked... we were essentially then forced into buying from outside the league which could have backfired badly. Nani and Kagawa are different but are not spine players, or at least not how we play them.
To all of you not blaming Moyes for our lack of transfers - yes - if he gave the board a list of realistic transfer targets and the board still failed to sign them. But all this crap about him only being here for a few months etc etc - are you serious ? He has been in the P.L for over 10 years - he has probably seen United play hundreds of times, and he has probably scouted United 15-20 times to find their weaknesses. He knew very well where our weaknesses were, before he signed. And every midfielder in Europe that could strengthen United, he knew and had scouted from his Everton-days. Could he get them as an Everton-manager ? No - but he knew in case they ever for some strange reason were available for Everton. It's not like he scouted a totally different range of players just because he was in charge of Everton.
Well said, this is the point I've been getting at. Every manager and scout should be aware of the players that have top class ability, it's not rocket science ffs.
You're half right and half wrong. Right, because I'm sure he knew our weaknesses and what we needed, and I doubt the time spent with the squad since training began changed too much. It's not like we've suddenly found a brand new quality midfielder within us. Heck, we're even short or numbers.
Wrong, though, because he couldn't look at everyone and scout everyone at Everton. I believe the article in the Independent also pointed out his system filtered out unrealistic targets. Now, a lot of those realistic targets are realistic targets. More to the point, they are of the qualify he needs to bring in now. So if he wants to do thorough work regarding players before he brings them in, it just wasn't going to happen in his first transfer window. Which explains why we seemed to have gone mostly for players of PL experience or even present.
The thing is, where does Baines fit in there? You look at where our supposed targets play and look at where Baines plays; why target Baines? He plays in a position where we've already got one of the best left-backs in the country and two young players that are more than capable of filling in, it doesn't make sense.
Aye. Either we want Baines - or another left back - or we don't. How can he be a fall back option if we don't get forwards and midfielders?
WTF? they were realistic targets for Everton, so they have the quality that reigning premier league champions Manchester United need
crazy stuff.The majority of the unrealistic targets he will have watched a dozen times on TV - he wouldn't need to scout european top-players from the 3-4 best clubs in the 3-4 best leagues in Europe