Decades Draft Tournament : antohan vs Cutch

[antohan]

I'm not assuming anything. You've a threat there and i've told you how i've got the players to control it. I havn't even mentioned Gregg, i can't think of a better keeper to have who will be attacking everything coming in the air.

Sure but, lest we forget, that amounts to hopefully dealing with 1 of 6 goals threats I listed...

1. Facchetti overlap and cross for Joya, Eusebio or Luis Enrique to head in. All excellent headers and prolific scorers.Cutch has nothing that compares.

2. Facchetti or Joya breaks through between RB and CB and shoots, cuts back or passes across the face of goal for a tap in. Cutch will struggle to fashion this in tight spaces and facing a more organised defence.

3. Eusebio trademark run from midfield and long range screamer, a classic. Again, Cutch will struggle to avoid getting shots closed down when facing a tighter and more organised defence. Breitner did have a good shot on him but was by no means as prolific.

4. Joya/Eusebio/Schuster/Lucho combining for a one-two through the middle. Difficult, the CB pair is very good on this front. This is Cutch's main route to goal, against a well setup and organised defence. He will bag one eventually, two at a push.

5. Garrincha shitting on everyone who gets close and replicating both 1 and 2 in a much more mouthwatering way. Cutch has no one like Garrincha on either flank.

6. Set pieces. Junior is the best set piece taker on the pitch, by a margin. If it is power you look for Eusebio and Hierro can provide it. If it is a placed lob then Schuster. But Junior combined power, accuracy and curl. Probably among the best ever taking corners. Cutch has a couple who could replicate a Hierro or Schuster, but not a Junior. And he has no one who will particularly trouble me aerially.

Yes anto thats exactly what a fantasy draft on an internet forum is.

Players being in a system which is cohesive and consistent with the sort of football they would thrive in is significantly more important than proven but disparate partnerships thrown into an experimental system.

how the hell is he completely stranded, he'll go to the threat that is considered the greatest risk, its common sense. If Facchetti is attacking and Rummenigge isn't tracking, he'll go out to help out on that side. Mauro Silva won't be marking the same player all game, thats what he does, puts out fires. His 2 main briefs will be being the first line of defence when Eusebio drops deep and doubling up with Suurbier when Facchetti marauds.

He simply doesn't have the pace to "go to the threat considered the greatest risk". He will be late everywhere, i.e. nowhere.

I see you conveniently ignore Joya is there as well. I know, he is Peruvian and all that, he was also a star player for the 13th ranked Best Football Team in history. He was the star partnering a striker with similar characteristics to one of the Greatest of All Time: Eusebio.

I have no idea how you expect Zanetti to do what is being asked of him here. He could do this much easier if he was playing where he should be at right back.

You would like that wouldn't you? I simply won't let you get into your groove, sorry about that.

 

[Cutch]

We should also considered that i've got the players that have done it on the biggest stage. Take my front 6.

Mauro Silva - World Cup winner in 1994
Breitner - World Cup Winner in 1972. Scorer in 2 World Cup Finals.
Rivera - Scoring the winner in a World Cup Semi final. Ballon D'or winner following winning the European Cup.
Iniesta - Scoring the winner in 2010 World Cup final. Man of the Match in 2012 European Championship final.
Rummenigge - Scored in the 1986 World Cup final
Messi - Scored in 2 Champions League finals

 

[Cutch]

Sure but, lest we forget, that amounts to hopefully dealing with 1 of 6 goals threats I listed...

1. Facchetti overlap and cross for Joya, Eusebio or Luis Enrique to head in. All excellent headers and prolific scorers. Cutch has nothing that compares.
I've suitable personnel at the back to deal with this threat and make no apologies for looking to play this game on the deck where i have the players to destroy you in attack.

2. Facchetti or Joya breaks through between RB and CB and shoots, cuts back or passes across the face of goal for a tap in. Cutch will struggle to fashion this in tight spaces and facing a more organised defence.
Iniesta and Messi are amongst the best ever seen at operating in tight spaces. Bizarre statement.

3. Eusebio trademark run from midfield and long range screamer, a classic. Again, Cutch will struggle to avoid getting shots closed down when facing a tighter and more organised defence. Breitner did have a good shot on him but was by no means as prolific.
Breitner will be a serious danger as you say, but Messi will at the very least match the threat of Eusebio, running from deep at the vulnerable Hierro.

4. Joya/Eusebio/Schuster/Lucho combining for a one-two through the middle. Difficult, the CB pair is very good on this front. This is Cutch's main route to goal, against a well setup and organised defence. He will bag one eventually, two at a push.
I think i have easily got the players better suited to this type of attack than you have. Surprised you even mentioned it.

5. Garrincha shitting on everyone who gets close and replicating both 1 and 2 in a much more mouthwatering way. Cutch has no one like Garrincha on either flank.
I have the best left back of all time brought in to deal with this risk. Lets not be silly, who has ever shit on Paulo Maldini. You don't have a player of the same class as Maldini or Nesta to deal with my player shitting on everyone, that is of course Lionel Messi.

6. Set pieces. Junior is the best set piece taker on the pitch, by a margin. If it is power you look for Eusebio and Hierro can provide it. If it is a placed lob then Schuster. But Junior combined power, accuracy and curl. Probably among the best ever taking corners. Cutch has a couple who could replicate a Hierro or Schuster, but not a Junior. And he has no one who will particularly trouble me aerially.
Roberto Ayala likes this.

...

 

[Balu]

I see you conveniently ignore Joya is there as well. I know, he is Peruvian and all that, he was also a star player for the 13th ranked Best Football Team in history. He was the star partnering a striker with similar characteristics to one of the Greatest of All Time: Eusebio.

I think there's no ranking, the teams are just in chronological order. Looks to me like they tried to find different teams from different eras and countries and not really tried to find a way to rank the 15 greatest club sides of all time. Still impressive, that Penarol are in that list and he's mentioned as one of their star players, I really haven't heard of him before this draft.

No clue who to vote for yet, but I think it's a brilliant move to play Zanetti in midfield in this game.

 

[antohan]

Oh yeah, the roll of honours competition. Bring it on!

Let's start with:

Zanetti - Champions League Winner frustrating the shit out of Iniesta and Messi in a better and more cohesive side in their pomp.
Hierro - Three times Champions League Winner marshalling a defence with some of the most average defenders to have won it.
Facchetti - Two times European Cup Winner with a team built around his threat down that left flank and assisting winning goals.
Desailly - Two times Champions League Winner, World Cup Winner, Euro Winner
Junior - Multiple award winner, I really can't be bothered as it is fecking ridiculous if you start including Beach Soccer Godness. See earlier exchange with Skorenzy about how he is only marginally behind Zico for Brazilian League Awards despite not being a fancy #10

Should I move on to my attackers?

Eusebio - Twice European Cup Winner, Ballon d'Or, European Top Scorer, World Cup Top Scorer
Garrincha - Twice World Cup Winner assisting and scoring goals in both finals, second most influential World Cup winning performance behind Diego 86. World Cup Best Player and World Cup Top Scorer
Joya - Twice Libertadores winner, Intercontinental Winner and Intercontinental Cup Winners Cup winner scoring and assisting goals in several of those finals
Schuster - Euro 80 winner, retired from international football aged 23, shame bar that an injuries Kalle could have a World Cup to his name

Yeah, Luis Enrique just won a few Ligas and a UEFA Cup IIRC, 1 in 2 record in Europe over his career.

Cech won a CL as well, after his Chelsea side also frustrated the shit out of Messi and Iniesta.

 

[antohan]

Iniesta and Messi are amongst the best ever seen at operating in tight spaces. Bizarre statement.

As shown by Zanetti's Inter and Cech's Chelsea, they can be stopped by a tight and organised defence. That's the point, not dissing them.

Breitner will be a serious danger as you say, but Messi will at the very least match the threat of Eusebio, running from deep at the vulnerable Hierro.

What? Messi is playing deep against a deep-sitting defence? Awesome.

I think i have easily got the players better suited to this type of attack than you have. Surprised you even mentioned it.

I mentioned it precisely for completeness and acknowledging that's your SOLE realistic route, having to work your way around a packed and extrememly solid defensive system.

I have the best left back of all time brought in to deal with this risk. Lets not be silly, who has ever shit on Paulo Maldini. You don't have a player of the same class as Maldini or Nesta to deal with my player shitting on everyone, that is of course Lionel Messi.

Upon facing an on-trial Garrincha Nilton Santos, arguably one of the best of all-time too, went up to the club President and said "Sign this guy as I don't want to be facing him".

BTW, wasn't Maldini bombing up and giving Zanetti headaches earlier. Bizarre how he can do that AND keep Garrincha quiet. Right...

Roberto Ayala likes this

15 goals in 499 career games. Prolific aerial threat from Cutch.

 

[Cutch]

Well, it was more the goals on the big occasion i was referring to rather than their honours. If you're going to include honours then an honorable mention also to:

Suurbier: 3 European Cups
Nesta: 2 Champions Leagues, 1 World Cup
Maldini: 5 Champions Leagues

 

[antohan]

I think there's no ranking, the teams are just in chronological order. Looks to me like they tried to find different teams from different eras and countries and not really tried to find a way to rank the 15 greatest club sides of all time. Still impressive, that Penarol are in that list and he's mentioned as one of their star players, I really haven't heard of him before this draft.

Didn't pick that up. Odds are it would be further up than 13th though, no? Not that it matters. The point is 1/2 of the star partnership in one of the top 15 teams ever can't be just dismissed as "some Peruvian chap". He consistently ignores him which, in real life, would mean Joya will wreak havoc.

Think about this Balu, he is quite insistent on how he has Mauro Silva putting out fires. Can you realistically see Silva running around to catch up with the emerging danger? He is a headless chicken out there. If there was a #10 he has been assigned to I would rate him, but he is completely stranded.

I have a free go at his defence time and time again in absolute acres of space. Yes he has two great defenders in it (assuming Maldini sits tight that is) but Eusebio, Garrincha, Joya and Facchetti will surely punish him, not once but several times.

 

[antohan]

Well, it was more the goals on the big occasion i was referring to rather than their honours. If you're going to include honours then an honorable mention also to:

Suurbier: 3 European Cups
Nesta: 2 Champions Leagues, 1 World Cup
Maldini: 5 Champions Leagues

Suurbier was lucky to be in a great side while Hierro, Zanetti and Desailly were undisputed rocks for theirs.

The other two are rather good. I've never questioned that.

 

[NM]

sorry anto. almost flipped a coin it was that close.

 

[Cutch]

As shown by Zanetti's Inter and Cech's Chelsea, they can be stopped by a tight and organised defence. That's the point, not dissing them.
You can get lucky on occasions with every man behind the ball. Hopefully you've got a bit more to offer than that.

What? Messi is playing deep against a deep-sitting defence? Awesome.
He's in a false no.9 role and will frequent the area between defence and midfield. Zanetti is apparently cutting out any balls in the channel between Hierro and Luis Enrique leaving Messi running at Hierro at pace.


I mentioned it precisely for completeness and acknowledging that's your SOLE realistic route, having to work your way around a packed and extrememly solid defensive system.
Its a hell of a good route. Iniesta, Messi, and Rummenigge will probe enough times at your defence, commit enough men to make shit happen.

Upon facing an on-trial Garrincha Nilton Santos, arguably one of the best of all-time too, went up to the club President and said "Sign this guy as I don't want to be facing him".

BTW, wasn't Maldini bombing up and giving Zanetti headaches earlier. Bizarre how he can do that AND keep Garrincha quiet. Right...
He's marking Garrincha yes, but it doesn't mean he's banned from attacking all game. Maldini will still get forward, you can't just overlook that. Its the same way that i accept Facchetti will attack despite being faced with Rummenigge.

15 goals in 499 career games. Prolific aerial threat from Cutch.
You dont have to score directly from a header but Ayala is strong and Rummenigge is decent. Anyway as i keep saying, i make no apologies for getting this side to do its damage on the deck. The pace, trickery, movement, finishing ability along with the supply from Rivera. You've a hell of a job keeping that lot quiet. Hierro and Desailly don't really come close to the 2 men i have assigned on your dangermen, Nesta and Maldini.

 

[Balu]

Didn't pick that up. Odds are it would be further up than 13th though, no? Not that it matters. The point is 1/2 of the star partnership in one of the top 15 teams ever can't be just dismissed as "some Peruvian chap". He consistently ignores him which, in real life, would mean Joya will wreak havoc.

Think about this Balu, he is quite insistent on how he has Mauro Silva putting out fires. Can you realistically see Silva running around to catch up with the emerging danger? He is a headless chicken out there. If there was a #10 he has been assigned to I would rate him, but he is completely stranded.

I have a free go at his defence time and time again in absolute acres of space. Yes he has two great defenders in it (assuming Maldini sits tight that is) but Eusebio, Garrincha, Joya and Facchetti will surely punish him, not once but several times.

I need to wrap my head around how my fellow Germans would influence this game before I can vote . I honestly have no clue what Breitner is doing, when Silva is putting out fires all the time?

 

[Cutch]

Didn't pick that up. Odds are it would be further up than 13th though, no? Not that it matters. The point is 1/2 of the star partnership in one of the top 15 teams ever can't be just dismissed as "some Peruvian chap". He consistently ignores him which, in real life, would mean Joya will wreak havoc.

Think about this Balu, he is quite insistent on how he has Mauro Silva putting out fires. Can you realistically see Silva running around to catch up with the emerging danger? He is a headless chicken out there. If there was a #10 he has been assigned to I would rate him, but he is completely stranded.

I have a free go at his defence time and time again in absolute acres of space. Yes he has two great defenders in it (assuming Maldini sits tight that is) but Eusebio, Garrincha, Joya and Facchetti will surely punish him, not once but several times.

I'm happy that the way you've set up has actually made Mauro Silva's job easier. He doesn't really have to worry now about picking up players breaking from midfield, as you are playing deep with disciplined roles for Zanetti and Junior leaving Schuster and Breitner to do battle. Silva is effectively a spare man. He picks up Eusebio if he drops into his area, and goes out to the right if Facchetti bombs forward. This is what Mauro Silva does, i havn't asked him to do anything different to what he's used to.

You're 3 main dangers are Facchetti, Garrincha and Eusebio. I think i've went through in enough detail now on how they will be stopped.

You're being very clever here focussing on how i will stop your threats as it takes the emphasis away from how the hell you're going to stop mine!

 

[Cutch]

I need to wrap my head around how my fellow Germans would influence this game before I can vote . I honestly have no clue what Breitner is doing, when Silva is putting out fires all the time?

Its basically Breitner v Schuster

 

[antohan]

sorry anto. almost flipped a coin it was that close.

But then you should have considered how many numpties won't do any reading and just vote based on pictures. I basically have to make up for all that before I have a fair shot at the game.

Fact is, Cutch seems to still be confused by what he is supposed to be facing. Look at his write up, he just swanned in here assuming the names and sexy pairs would win it for him. He didn't even try make another diagram like against Gio...

My side has been well drilled for the exact game that is being played, it's all clearly layed out and the first half would be mine while they try wrap their heads around things. That to me is blindingly obvious.

Lose the first half to a counter attacking side like this and you lose the game. It's that simple.

 

[NM]

But then you should have considered how many numpties won't do any reading and just vote based on pictures. I basically have to make up for all that before I have a fair shot at the game.

Fact is, Cutch seems to still be confused by what he is supposed to be facing. Look at his write up, he just swanned in here assuming the names and sexy pairs would win it for him. He didn't even try make another diagram like against Gio...
My side has been well drilled for the exact game that is being played, it's all clearly layed out and the first half would be mine while they try wrap their heads around things. That to me is blindingly obvious.

Lose the first half to a counter attacking side like this and you lose the game. It's that simple.

are you calling me a numpty or asking me to consider that before I vote? Its only 3-5 so you still have a very good shot

 

[Cutch]

But then you should have considered how many numpties won't do any reading and just vote based on pictures. I basically have to make up for all that before I have a fair shot at the game.

Fact is, Cutch seems to still be confused by what he is supposed to be facing. Look at his write up, he just swanned in here assuming the names and sexy pairs would win it for him. He didn't even try make another diagram like against Gio...

My side has been well drilled for the exact game that is being played, it's all clearly layed out and the first half would be mine while they try wrap their heads around things. That to me is blindingly obvious.

Lose the first half to a counter attacking side like this and you lose the game. It's that simple.

That was because you yourself slaughtered it saying it was a still image that didn't replicate how a game would pan out.

I've cut down on the writeup cos i've been busy all week and i've time on my hands to explain all this evening. A lot of what i would have wrote is self explanatory, people are clever enough themselves to work out how this game would pan out.

The second half of that is just nonsense. Your gameplan is basically defend deep, get men behind the ball and hope to get lucky on the counter in a defence that contains Nesta and Maldini. Its not clever inviting that team onto, you'll be going in at half time 2 or 3 down.

 

[antohan]

You can get lucky on occasions with every man behind the ball. Hopefully you've got a bit more to offer than that.

A far better defence, far better and numerous ball distributors across the defence and midfield, the best attacking leftback ever and Garrincha, Eusebio and Joya.

Much, much more.

He's in a false no.9 role and will frequent the area between defence and midfield. Zanetti is apparently cutting out any balls in the channel between Hierro and Luis Enrique leaving Messi running at Hierro at pace.

I see you are still trying to work out Zanetti and inventing convenient roles subject to the argument. It's Zanetti, he is not the limited one job man you try paint him as.

Not that Hierro can't stop Messi. As said, he stopped Ronaldo and I can't see what it is that Messi has on Ronaldo. For starters, Ronaldo did win himself a World Cup while Messi has never performed to a similar level outside a specific setup you don't have in place here.

He's marking Garrincha yes, but it doesn't mean he's banned from attacking all game. Maldini will still get forward, you can't just overlook that. Its the same way that i accept Facchetti will attack despite being faced with Rummenigge.

It's very different. Luis Enrique can easily deal with any attacking threat Maldini could pose and I have a double lock covering my wingbacks (Junior takes Rummenigge) as opposed to Mauro Silva stranded in no man's land.

Awesome. I get the ball back and ping it for Eusebio, Garrincha, Facchetti and Joya to run at Nesta, Ayala and the mighty Wim Suurbier.

You dont have to score directly from a header but Ayala is strong and Rummenigge is decent. Anyway as i keep saying, i make no apologies for getting this side to do its damage on the deck. The pace, trickery, movement, finishing ability along with the supply from Rivera. You've a hell of a job keeping that lot quiet. Hierro and Desailly don't really come close to the 2 men i have assigned on your dangermen, Nesta and Maldini.

4 dangermen, two men. And you just sent Maldini to faff around by my corner flag so it all goes down to Nesta.

Hierro and Desailly arre at the centre of an organised defensive unit, whatever men of yours will actually stay back are facing forwards runnign at the in acres of space. I know which one I bank to score.

 

[antohan]

I need to wrap my head around how my fellow Germans would influence this game before I can vote . I honestly have no clue what Breitner is doing, when Silva is putting out fires all the time?

Breitner, like Maldini, has been committed to the attacking effort to try break me down leaving Mauro Silva pointlessly stranded in midfield as the ball is pinged for Eusebio, Garrincha, Joya and Facchetti to run at Nesta, Ayala and Suurbier.

 

[antohan]

I'm happy that the way you've set up has actually made Mauro Silva's job easier. He doesn't really have to worry now about picking up players breaking from midfield, as you are playing deep with disciplined roles for Zanetti and Junior leaving Schuster and Breitner to do battle. Silva is effectively a spare man. He picks up Eusebio if he drops into his area, and goes out to the right if Facchetti bombs forward. This is what Mauro Silva does, i havn't asked him to do anything different to what he's used to.

He doesn't have the pace to get anywhere in time. What is so hard to understand about it? The ball travles faster than him and every single one of my attacking quartet will skin him. He is hopeless, you can't realistically stop me at all without at least two people doing what Silva is trying to do.

You're 3 main dangers are Facchetti, Garrincha and Eusebio. I think i've went through in enough detail now on how they will be stopped.

You're being very clever here focussing on how i will stop your threats as it takes the emphasis away from how the hell you're going to stop mine!

You're being clever blissfully ignoring Joya (I don't regularly mention Lucho as he would most likely be a late arrival, around the same time Silva arrives).

 

[antohan]

are you calling me a numpty or asking me to consider that before I vote? Its only 3-5 so you still have a very good shot

A bit of both

 

[Brwned]

For what it's worth, the more someone presents a one-sided argument the less inclined I am to vote for them. It takes too much focus away from the game itself and generally doesn't make for great reading. I say this knowing that I've done the same myself, and I assume it has lost me a couple of votes for the same reason in other draft games.

 

[Cutch]

A far better defence, far better and numerous ball distributors across the defence and midfield, the best attacking leftback ever and Garrincha, Eusebio and Joya.

Much, much more.
You can never claim to have a far better defence than 1 that contains Nesta and Maldini. Especially when you've Luis Enrique at wingback. Rivera and Iniesta is all the ball distributors you need, not sure how you are much better in that respect. My left back is the equal of yours and my attack is stronger. I still have no idea what this Joya chap is doing on this pitch.



I see you are still trying to work out Zanetti and inventing convenient roles subject to the argument. It's Zanetti, he is not the limited one job man you try paint him as.

Not that Hierro can't stop Messi. As said, he stopped Ronaldo and I can't see what it is that Messi has on Ronaldo. For starters, Ronaldo did win himself a World Cup while Messi has never performed to a similar level outside a specific setup you don't have in place here.
I've a setup very close to what he aspires to. A heavy pressing side, a robust midfield, a supply line, a teammate he plays his best football with and a fluid attack. I've also given him the role he desires, not on the wing or a support striker, the false 9 is all his.



It's very different. Luis Enrique can easily deal with any attacking threat Maldini could pose and I have a double lock covering my wingbacks (Junior takes Rummenigge) as opposed to Mauro Silva stranded in no man's land.

Awesome. I get the ball back and ping it for Eusebio, Garrincha, Facchetti and Joya to run at Nesta, Ayala and the mighty Wim Suurbier.


4 dangermen, two men. And you just sent Maldini to faff around by my corner flag so it all goes down to Nesta.
Maldini will get forward just as Facchetti will get forward. He'll not be recklessly bombing on at every opportunity but its madness to assume he'll be contributing nothing down that side, especially when he'll be basically unopposed.

At least with Maldini he can link up with Iniesta in attack. I would fancy my left side to have more joy than yours will.

Hierro and Desailly arre at the centre of an organised defensive unit, whatever men of yours will actually stay back are facing forwards runnign at the in acres of space. I know which one I bank to score.
Messi has an easier task running at Hierro/Desailly than Eusebio will running at Mauro Silva/Nesta/Ayala

 

[antohan]

For what it's worth, the more someone presents a one-sided argument the less inclined I am to vote for them. It takes too much focus away from the game itself and generally doesn't make for great reading. I say this knowing that I've done the same myself, and I assume it has lost me a couple of votes for the same reason in other draft games.

I will keep making the point on Silva until he acknowledges it. So long as he is pretending he is magically everywhere on the pitch I won't.

I'm happy to discuss other things and have done so more so than Cutch. My tactics pitch is quite clear in that I have nothing to hide and nothing I'm worried about being picked up on.

I just can't accept this head in the sand stuff, it's ridiculous. Silva is everywhere, Maldini is attacking but also man-marking Garrincha, Joya doesn't exist, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Cutch]

Breitner, like Maldini, has been committed to the attacking effort to try break me down leaving Mauro Silva pointlessly stranded in midfield as the ball is pinged for Eusebio, Garrincha, Joya and Facchetti to run at Nesta, Ayala and Suurbier.

Why would you count Facchetti in this equation and not Breitner?

 

[Cutch]

I will keep making the point on Silva until he acknowledges it. So long as he is pretending he is magically everywhere on the pitch I won't.

I'm happy to discuss other things and have done so more so than Cutch. My tactics pitch is quite clear in that I have nothing to hide and nothing I'm worried about being picked up on.

I just can't accept this head in the sand stuff, it's ridiculous. Silva is everywhere, Maldini is attacking but also man-marking Garrincha, Joya doesn't exist, etc. etc. etc.

Spoiler

See spoiler. What is so complicated on what i'm saying that you fail to grasp. Its not asking Mauro Silva to be everywhere. He's the first line of defence if Eusebio drops deep and if Facchetti attacks he passes Eusebio on to the back 4 and he drifts out.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

For what it's worth, the more someone presents a one-sided argument the less inclined I am to vote for them. It takes too much focus away from the game itself and generally doesn't make for great reading. I say this knowing that I've done the same myself, and I assume it has lost me a couple of votes for the same reason in other draft games.

Grappling with this myself a bit, although I'm enjoying the read alot. Anto is arguing very coherently and persuasively as usual (Cutch too for that matter but in a less aggressive way!), but I'm finding myself trying to pick apart his arguments quite a bit as I don't want to do Cutch a disservice by being taken in by Anto's whirlwind!

Wondering about Rivera's role in the game. If Breitner and Schuster are doing battle, Zanetti and Junior are nullifying Iniesta and Rumminege in the channels i can see him getting plenty of the ball centrally and splitting the defence open.

 

[antohan]

You can never claim to have a far better defence than 1 that contains Nesta and Maldini. Especially when you've Luis Enrique at wingback. Rivera and Iniesta is all the ball distributors you need, not sure how you are much better in that respect. My left back is the equal of yours and my attack is stronger. I still have no idea what this Joya chap is doing on this pitch.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I was referring to you painting me as a limited side which may get as lucky as Inter or Chelsea. They weren't just lucky, they played a certain game and made it work. May I remind you Bayern recently shat on Messi and Iniesta as well. They can be dealt with and the far better defence, various playmakers and forwards referred to those sides not yours.

Maldini will get forward just as Facchetti will get forward. He'll not be recklessly bombing on at every opportunity but its madness to assume he'll be contributing nothing down that side, especially when he'll be basically unopposed. At least with Maldini he can link up with Iniesta in attack. I would fancy my left side to have more joy than yours will.

You are absolutely bonkers if you think Maldini-Iniesta on Luis Enrique and Zanetti will be more effective than Joya and Facchetti on Suurbier, even if Silva had any hope of getting there in time. If he does he must have been close enough for Eusebio to be the better option to pass to.

I don't mind Maldini going forward at all as he has no cover whatsoever other than Nesta fo Garrincha, leaving Ayala horrendously exposed. But maybe Silva will also make it there in time, eh?

Messi has an easier task running at Hierro/Desailly than Eusebio will running at Mauro Silva/Nesta/Ayala

If he is running from deep as you say you may as well remove Mauro if you will remove my midfielders from the equation. Eusebio doesn't even need to get past them two for starters, he can just let fly and score from range, or has passes on behind your defensive high line either side of him. I fancy that more than your entire goal threat being reduced to Messi having to dribble his way past my pair and then score against Cech as opposed to Harry Gregg.

 

[antohan]

Why would you count Facchetti in this equation and not Breitner?

Because Facchetti is largely untroubled on his flank and was an athlete, a real, actual 100mts athlete before deciding on a career as a footballer. Also, I'm not sure where Breitner's starting position will be from either as he seems to have been onto different players going by your posts.

 

[Cutch]

Eyes are going square here. Gonna have to take a break from this for a bit and have a few beers.

Good battle so far anyway.

 

[antohan]

Spoiler

See spoiler. What is so complicated on what i'm saying that you fail to grasp. Its not asking Mauro Silva to be everywhere. He's the first line of defence if Eusebio drops deep and if Facchetti attacks he passes Eusebio on to the back 4 and he drifts out.

It's not a shirt matching contest.

That's nothing like what the pitch would look like when I've recovered after soaking. Where's your high line there by the way? How has Maldini magically shown up at his end of the pitch?

 

[antohan]

If Breitner and Schuster are doing battle, Zanetti and Junior are nullifying Iniesta and Rumminege in the channels i can see him getting plenty of the ball centrally and splitting the defence open.

That's what Cutch said, I never did.

I've always been consistent about Schuster having Rivera's number.

If he wants Breitner to do battle with Schuster in the centre circle once I get the ball back I'm fine with it but don't let his smoke and mirrors change my tactics. My players have been clearly instructed, he can imagine whatever he wants or prefers but you should base yourself on what I've said I'm doing!

 

[antohan]

This better reflects what things would look like allowing for all of Cutch's tactical instructions. Slanted to the right as I assume that is the recovery scenario Maldini would be upfront in.

I've tried to be as fair to Silva as possible in being able to get everywhere in time but he can't.

Where he is now it's a clear ball into space for Eusebio to run onto and he will beat him to it easily leaving Ayala as a precarious last line of defence. If I push him back to allow for that then Eusebio receives and runs at him at full pelt, not pretty either. If deeper he is also less likely to be able to go support Suurbier who is quickly facing a 2 vs. 1. Notice if he went there it is as easy as Joya playing it straight back into the centre.

Good as Nesta is, you can't expect him to have Garrincha in his pocket for 90 mins, no chance and by the time Maldini is there Lucho also is.

It's wide open space and people chasing shadows, simple as.

​

I know Breitner's midfield battle looks utterly pointless, he is bound to be further up the pitch but that's what Cutch has said. He should move up, which is fine, as I have a man to spare. Facchetti is at present clearly underutilised defensively. The idea was he would tuck in on Kalle and Junior would be more the spare man to deal with Breitner, or Messi dropping deep to go on one of these runs "on Hierro and Desailly".

I've been fair in just placing the arrow. Fact is the moment he perceived recovery was in the cards he would have shot up and would be halfway up that arrow (be it to receive there and overlap or about to overlap on a pivotting Joya).

Notice how Garrincha could really toy around with Nesta's positioning to create even more room and space for Eusebio to receive in.

 

[Cutch]

Identical setup to when I win the ball back after Facchetti attacks, with Rummenigge and Messi forward. You're trying to make something out of nothing here

 

[antohan]

No it isn't.

1. Junior is covering Facchetti, you have only Silva sitting while I have Junior and Zanetti. It's a humongous difference. Two men can do the job while one simply can't.​

2. Which of your players is getting that brilliant quick ball out to them? Ayala and Nesta are no Hierros. Silva, no chance. Suurbier? Don't get me to post that wonderful shot to the car park behind the stadium. Breitner possibly. Not sure Rivera would have bothered track back too much.​

 

[Cutch]

I've 4 players back on 3 (1 of which is Joya). If Maldini is attacking Breitner probably isn't going to be in an advanced position. There's no problem here.

Distribution from the back won't be either. There's no John O'Sheas here. Everyone of them is classy on the ball.

 

[Moby]

Interesting game so far. Haven't read all the posts but few things :

Iniesta can impact this game big time IMO. While Zanetti is in a good area to keep close to him he will be dragged all over the pitch which is where if at any time Messi drops in the pocket left by Zanetti, any move created by Andres will be very dangerous. Secondly, it is tough to see Rivera completely nullified by Schuster, as hard working as he was, Rivera's dribbling can prove to be harmful. I think it is a dangerous game to invite Cutch's team to camp around your defense, specially when there is the chemistry of Messi and Iniesta to perform a well orchestrated move. It has been proven to be a good way to deal with them but also suicidal more often than not. Can see anto's team chasing shadows for most part of the game.

Now on the other side, Eusebio is a daunting proposition on the counter specially if he happens to target Ayala. I agree Breitner might just have no say in this game, apart from a good long shot. Can Silva track Eusebio? Perhaps not always, so Eusebio would get a goal IMO. Garrincha vs Maldini is a lot tougher, ideally you would say that Garrincha would score but against Maldini who has made a career of successfully reading and stopping counters and has the pace and stamina for it, it can be a bit of an even contest there. Surely Paolo is up to that job.

Is Garrincha the best player in a counter attacking setup though? Not questioning his playing attributes but his mentality, is he bound to get frustrated after not seeing the ball for a long time or will he be ready to pounce on anything without having a sulk? From his footage you seem to get the impression he played in sides that had most of the ball and fed him continuously.

Quite close game this, the Messi-Iniesta-Rivera triangle is a bit dangerous IMO.

 

[Cutch]

Why would Breitner have no say Aldo? Antohan seems to be giving him the freedom of the park with his tactics. I assumed Schuster would be on him but he's picking up Rivera

 

[Moby]

Why would Breitner have no say Aldo? Antohan seems to be giving him the freedom of the park with his tactics. I assumed Schuster would be on him but he's picking up Rivera

I see most of the buildup provided by that triangle, since Schuster is dealing with Rivera I don't think Breitner needs to stay close to him. He'll be in a place already packed with players passing it around, he'd probably be useful in guarding the left flank on the counter and doubling up on Garrincha when needed but in the midfield battle I don't he is going decide the outcome. It depends on Schuster v Rivera and Silva v Eusebio being the key battles.

Him having freedom can be dangerous by his long shooting, which is a good plan B to have if the others fail to carve openings.

He's not the sort to sit back and help out Silva is he? When you attack he would invariably move forward into an area that doesn't really need any help, apart from teeing him up for a shot.

 

[antohan]

I've 4 players back on 3 (1 of which is Joya). If Maldini is attacking Breitner probably isn't going to be in an advanced position. There's no problem here.

So when Maldini attacks Breitner is covering him? Awesome! I'd much rather Maldini attacked and Breitner dealt with Garrincha.

Distribution from the back won't be either. There's no John O'Sheas here. Everyone of them is classy on the ball.

"Classy on the ball"? Maldini is, but the rest of your defenders are actually no better than O'Shea at picking a pass. As good as Desailly for that matter. Everyone else in my side is as good or a fair bit better than Maldini.

The worst passer on the pitch is Mauro Silva, by a distance. Breitner is fine though, as said.