Just got back in and not had time to read this yet, but the two formation pictures really annoy me! Just put their names ffs
Decades Draft Tournament : antohan vs Cutch
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Maldini won't be attacking gung ho but he will contribute to my attacking unit. It might only be 4-5 times in a game, its just to get the point across that you can't assume he'll be sitting back all game.
The counter attack won't be a major part of the side as they'll be on the front foot for long periods. The passing will generally be short and quick, and everyone is comfortable in possession. I don't need anyone with Hierros range of passing to play how this team will be.
I'm shattered. Time for the bed. Will resume in morning
Why do you also assume he will let himself be dragged around? He is not man-marking Iniesta. His job is to guard the area just ahead of the space between Hierro and Enrique. The main objective is to stop Iniesta breaking in there, if Iniesta goes way out wide on the line he is now Luis Enrique's job and Zanetti will only concern himself with him if Lucho gets beaten. Players don't run around everywhere on the pitch chasing people like complete morons, they know what duties they have been assigned and know what constitutes danger and what doesn't. Iniesta breaking into the box and receiving is danger, going out wide isn't.
But he is attacking Luis Enrique down the flank and leaving Breitner covering (he now has a new job apparently, no longer engaged in midfield battle with Schuster). He is no Vogts, Garrincha would rape him.
I touched on this in my last game and I thought it was clear from my pitch. He is totally unpredictable and impossible to dictate tactical instructions to. Just pure unbridled fantasy. You may give him the ball and see him run at the defence and destroy him or you may see him faff around and letting others track back. You just don't know with him, which is why in the last game I said "for the quick counter go for Joya or Eusebio, if that's not on or if the defence needs a breather go Garrincha". The breather element can be quite important when you bring so much heat on yourself.
That is precisely why Facchetti and Joya on the left, and Eusebio through the middle, have been emphasised more (to the point of listing routes to goal in that order). They are the more direct counter threat that can leave Cutch struck by lightning. Garrincha will want the ball, that is what will ensure his movement drags his marker around. He will be an excellent option if the counter is not looking as wide open, e.g. I mentioned earlier Eusebio will have that as a passing option on his right if he isn't to shoot or take on a defender. If Garrincha is looking like the better option that's what he will go for.
I haven't gone around banging on and on about Garrincha for that very reason, he is an option, not the backbone of the strategy. Handy option though, eh?
No, you don't, except when you claim you have the exact same counter scenario when recovering the ball from me. You don't. It's not game-changing but you are claiming something which is false on two counts: 1. I have more cover, 2. you can't execute a quick transition the way I can
I had trouble with Luis Enrique and Carlos Alberto for my first game, the length of the name forced me to play his shirt almost where Zanetti is
.Maybe you can say R. Carlos but C. Alberto may not be as easy to spot. Cutch seems to have liked it.
Don't see why it's a major issue.
It's not a major issue at all, but it annoys me more than it should Just one of those things, like when you got annoyed at youtube videos
Seems a bit gimmicky to me
Just one of those things, like when you got annoyed at youtube videosSeems a bit gimmicky to me
Not all across the pitch actually, but just in the area where Zanetti is supposed to guard, Iniesta can perform his small movements which he often does without letting the defender touch the ball which in turn forces someone to leave his guard and then is when Iniesta makes the pass. I think he's in his comfort zone letting Zanetti chase him, even in the 10 yard area Zanetti is and then coming up with a move in tandem with Messi.
Rivera seems to have a bit of space to work doesn't he? Schuster would inevitably take positions from where he can start counters so he won't really stay close to Rivera the whole time,add to that Rivera usually roamed in midfield so I think his playmaking is going to work.
What is Luis Enrique doing though while defending? Cannot see Iniesta ever going to that part of the pitch, that is Jordi Alba's territory if you look at the current setup, Maldini won't attack that much at all specially since he has to look at Garrincha. I don't think Paolo will get raped here, his awareness is top notch and his early tackles before the ball reaches dangerous territory can put Garrincha off his game specially when Garrincha won't get a lot of the ball. He has to make it work in the few times and Paolo can actually stop him here.
If your team was the one to dominate midfield and possession, it would have been a lot tougher for Paolo to keep Garrincha out when he's having a go at him every 5 minutes, but here he would be relieved from that for a large part of the game, and he was a great judge of saving his energy and stamina for the time when he needs it.
Eusebio really looks a lot more threatening to me.
Rivera seems to have a bit of space to work doesn't he? Schuster would inevitably take positions from where he can start counters so he won't really stay close to Rivera the whole time,add to that Rivera usually roamed in midfield so I think his playmaking is going to work.
What is Luis Enrique doing though while defending? Cannot see Iniesta ever going to that part of the pitch, that is Jordi Alba's territory if you look at the current setup, Maldini won't attack that much at all specially since he has to look at Garrincha. I don't think Paolo will get raped here, his awareness is top notch and his early tackles before the ball reaches dangerous territory can put Garrincha off his game specially when Garrincha won't get a lot of the ball. He has to make it work in the few times and Paolo can actually stop him here.
If your team was the one to dominate midfield and possession, it would have been a lot tougher for Paolo to keep Garrincha out when he's having a go at him every 5 minutes, but here he would be relieved from that for a large part of the game, and he was a great judge of saving his energy and stamina for the time when he needs it.
Eusebio really looks a lot more threatening to me.
Anyway really tough to call this. anto has brought the setup that can be effective with some top defenders making it work, but then Cutch has added that extra chemistry of Messiniesta that has worked magic before.
Let's see how it progresses.
Let's see how it progresses.
Don't remember that but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not that worried about gimmicks but I don't like it when youtube videos are the sole basis to make your case. I post some every now and then when I feel something is being completely overlooked, but they can be overkill.It's not a major issue at all, but it annoys me more than it should
Seems a bit gimmicky to me
If you have read my write ups it's quite blatant that they aren't the sole basis of making a case. So not sure what you are on about there.
Ayee not saying you're worried about gimmicks, don't think anyone is worried about anything in a draft game tbh. It just looks stupid.
Aldo, I now the monumental man crush you have with Iniesta. Won't try to talk you out of it as it is pointless, you just want to go with Messi-Iniesta despite continuous real life proof that they can be stopped even in their favoured setup, in a better side than Cutch's (bar a couple of defenders), and while facing far inferior sides to the one I have fielded.
Why would Schuster take positions to start counters when we don't have the ball? He's onto him alright. I'm not hugely worried about Rivera though, he really doesn't have a lot to target ahead of him. It's really only three players under heavy marking. I even thought about Eusebio being asked to get a bit more stuck in but it didn't make sense to tie him up at all.
Not much, exactly. That's why it is him and not Zanetti out wide. Lucho is tasked with Maldini if he comes forward or Iniesta if he comes out wide to avoid Zanetti. Cutch insists Maldini will attack though. He has, it's not me making it up and you should consider that. If he is not attacking at all then the reality is both Zanetti and Lucho end up on Iniesta most of the time. Of course, Iniesta will murder them too in your opinion but Garrincha is fecked vs. Maldini. Right...
See above. Garrincha will see more than enough of the ball, particularly if Maldini attacks. He is an obvious outball in that scenario. He just needs to beat one man and he is through on goal. I wouldn't worry about him lacking directness then but when he has to beat Maldini AND Nesta after him.
He sure looks deadly. Maybe because he is in his element, well partnered, well serviced and the man meant to stop him can't keep up, and after that is Roberto Ayala having to stop the oncoming traffic looking like a rabbit in headlights.
No Theon, I didn't say anything about you not elaborating.
I don't even remember when that happened. Just said I wouldn't be surprised if I complained about youtube overdrive before and that would have probably been the reason.
It is unfair to look at the games where they were stopped, that way Maradona was also stopped by Gentile, Cruyff was stopped by Vogts and what not. I understand you have gone for a park the bus job which has proven difficult but in the overall picture I am considering both being at their best in terms of passing, movement and link up. Same for Eusebio, or else should I say he couldn't beat Stepney in a 1v1 that could have won the European Cup?
As for Eusebio yeah you are spot on. Can see him being in a 1v1 with Silva that would be really dangerous. Specially from long shots. He's got the space and passers in the team to find him accurately. He is scoring, no question.
Wouldn't in any real game Ayala stay on a similar height to Suurbier and Nesta and you'd face a well working offside trap with these players that nullifies your counter attack almost completely? A long with the pressure on your players when they get the ball, which makes it very hard to pingpoint perfect passes and will end in quite a lot interceptions, it's a completely different situation than what you describe. Sure you get through a few times and most likely will score, but I'm not sure that's enough. Giving so much possession to Cutch with Iniesta roaming around, Messi dropping deep, Kalle running inside and Rivera most likely able to escape Schuster a few times is a very dangerous game.
Also I highly doubt, Maldini and Breitner will move forward at the same time. Just because Maldini will find a few spots to make a run during the game, doesn't mean he will run forward like a headless chicken and be part of the attack every single time. I don't think Cutch ever said that. It's quite dangerous for Faccetti to go instantly on a run forward the moment your team gets the ball as well with the pressure Cutch wants to apply on your players. If your first pass gets intercepted and it will happen a few times, you're in massive trouble, when Facchetti is caught out of position.
I still have no clue who to vote for, just thought that picture is really stupid because in no way would a back 4 of these players ever be dragged all over the pitch like that and Cutch said nothing that gives that impression.
What defences have they faced of a similar standard? It's also unfair to think about Messi scoring for fun against Almería or similar dross. On that basis then I can bring up Eusebio's 2 goals per game record!
It's not an unfair statement at all. Look at the last few years of these two in what some argue is the best club side ever:
- 2009 they would have gone out to Chelsea if it weren't for outrageous refereeing,
- 2010 they went out to Inter,
- 2011 they shat on us (not that we had a midfield...),
- 2012 Chelsea stopped them and
- 2013 Bayern shat on them.
They had decisions against them in the first leg against Chelsea n 09, it is quite pointless to bring that up.
They also never had a Maldini and Nesta protecting them.
We are judging players at their peak and Messi and Iniesta have done more than outplaying Almeria to be very honest.
They also never had a Maldini and Nesta protecting them.
We are judging players at their peak and Messi and Iniesta have done more than outplaying Almeria to be very honest.
I followed what Cutch's instruction was: high line with Ayala staying back as a last man. Ask him why.
My guess is if he plays an offside trap I would need to get caught in it to nullify me. I have more pace so it would be completely insane of his.
I'm banking on Hierro, Schuster and Junior to have the composure to play those passes. They have plenty of options between those three and the wingbacks, surely at least one of them will be on most of the time. It's not like I'm trying to thread a ball through a needle. Plenty of space, plenty of options and all of them faster than their markers. They have a much easier job getting those balls ut than Rivera, now he would get a lot of balls intercepted.
He corrected it later. He had indeed said Breitner was in a midfield battle and Maldini was attacking. Had also listed six players who would all be attacking Zanetti's zone earlier, thus overpowering hi. That was quite funny.
Junior would be on Kalle there anyway seeing as I had drifted him in to acknowledge the Breitner threat, but he is now a left back covering for a better left back going on attacking runs, which he is better at. Really don't get that at all.
I'm actually shocked at how badly positioned some of his players are. Glad that's the case, it's already hard enough as it is.
Cutch did say that. I'll look it up for you. He si quite non-committal though. Gave little if no insight into his instructions and I have spent all game trying to extract them off him. He knows it is much easier to coast through a game letting people assume what they think would be best is what he is doing.
Look at his earlier stupid picture and tell me who made a more honest attempt at reflecting the scenario.
As great an all-around footballer as Luis Enrique was I'm having no problem imagining Iniesta turning him inside out several times in this match, or finding him so far out of position that he doesn't have to. Zanetti comes out to cover, either Rivera or Breitner is free for an easy short pass, Messi gets the ball either to feet or into space and does what Messi does.
Going to have to go with Cutch here. He has the better individual quality imo and has certainly held his own in the tactical debate.
The idea of voting against Anto makes me feel bad as his energy basically makes these drafts what they are, but although his tactical set up has been excellent to read Cutch deserves this for me.
Of course they have. I basically listed 5 CL seasons at their business ends and there are cases when they quite clearly did the business.
There are also others when they didn't or were incredibly close not to. Should we just ignore that and just focus only on the games were everything went well for them? That doesn't sound fair either.
I acknowledged those two defenders being better than what Barca had, why not recognise I'm aware of the point rather than counterargue it?
Their rivals didn't have Garrincha or Eusebio either.
Quite agree with all this.
The only thing stopping me from voting for Cutch is anto has done a great job in creating a setup that on their day can stop Cutch's team not without one of Cutch's players having a bad game which I can't consider. Having everyone at the best on the pitch, with Paolo and Nesta being two of the best you can ask for against counters, I think despite anto's best efforts he would fall just short of a win here.
Not voting now anyway.
It was a one off when it happened. The Inter result is the only one where they were actually done for, and it was because they conceded thrice thanks to some shocking defending which won't happen here. Chelsea in 09 was a joke but Barca will still the better team. Iniesta scored and Messi assisted, the players involved in this game.
They've reached CL semis 6 odd years in a row without breaking a sweat. If you are telling your players that they can easily stop them just on the back of an upset then that is bad management and can cost you the game.
Maldini vs Garrincha will be even in your setup. Eusebio's scoring, never questioned it.
Pat, that's why he is out wide and Zanetti inside. Cutch spent the entire first few hours banging on about how I got that wrong when it clearly isn't the case. I would be far more exposed if they were the other way around.
I don't particularly worry about what Iniesta might do to Lucho as long as he is kept out there and there are eough players around to intercept and track the others.
Rivera is not free as Schuster is onto him.
Breitner isn't free either, althoguh you have to wonder where he is meant to be playing at this point. Cutch has him engaged in midfield battle with Schuster, then at left back, then you have him free behind Zanetti's back. If there's a dangerous situation down the right the unit drifts that way. Facchetti has Kalle and Junior is utterly free to cover Zanetti/pick Breitner/a runaway Rivera.
Oh well.
Of course I'm not. It's Cutch that just chucked the names on the teamsheet and sent them out to spend the entire half completely baffled that they had prepared for a different game.
Why do you ignore the manager instructing Maldini to attack and Breitner to mark Garrincha? I really don't get it. He has put it in black and white.
What is the point of posting to point out what is wrong with the rival and make them commit to say what they are supposedly doing if people will just ignore it entirely?
Complete waste of time this. Half the people vote on pictures and the ones that read are selective and apply confirmation bias.
I think Cutch said it would not be more than 4-5 times no? It is not like Garrincha is standing alone for 90 minutes on the flank.
Your off chance to make that happen would be finding Maldini completely committed in attack and also finding a pass to Garrincha at the same time, it could happen but has a very less probability.
Even if Maldini is a little behind he can recover, he did so often against tricky players that is coming from behind and putting in a perfect tackle. Ronaldo comes to mind instantly when he played on the right for Inter and despite his pace and huge frame Paolo handled him well.
Your off chance to make that happen would be finding Maldini completely committed in attack and also finding a pass to Garrincha at the same time, it could happen but has a very less probability.
Even if Maldini is a little behind he can recover, he did so often against tricky players that is coming from behind and putting in a perfect tackle. Ronaldo comes to mind instantly when he played on the right for Inter and despite his pace and huge frame Paolo handled him well.
I think the Facchetti pick might just cost you the game. I know why you picked him and can see him influencing the game but attacking threat from wingbacks has never been appreciated fully and never will be. That is the very reason formations with 3 at the back never get votes.
Balu, you may be right that Ayala should also be high up. I guess I misread the covering defender bit (Argentina did that a lot though because Ayala simply doesn't have the pace for a high line, he was usually the "defensa escalonado", i.e. the one further back to cover the more advanced CB is beaten).
All the better if Ayala is also high up. I'll murder that backline via ball over the top, or is Harry Gregg also a modern sweeper keeper?
He has changed his tune so many times I've stopped bothering with working it out. It's pointless. Read what you would rather read, as everyone seems to do.
Only Ayala's pace seems to be an issue for me there which he makes up with his reading of the game.
More importantly you have Eusebio who is not playing on the shoulder of Ayala or Nesta but a lot deeper as he usually did which is why he is against Silva. Who are you aiming the high balls at?
He does seem flipping flopping over it yeah.
Facchetti and Joya would murder Suurbier. He already did it in the last game and kept Gio in it despite being his singular route to goal.
Too much fancy pansy name shit here, that's all. I'd rather go with a team that would win than pick Redondo so that everyone goes "wow, awesome midfielder" despite the side being severley weakened by comparison.
I was a dead man walking the moment the draw was done. I don't mind going out with a team that I know would win. Much better than picking some big names that will get votes but not improve the sides. Cutch said I should have got Giggs. He is not worse than Joya, but no real improvement either. It's just a marketing move, don't give a flying feck about those.
Yeah as I said I really respect the way you have gone here. The tactics are very effective and I would have actually voted for Cutch by now if you had just gone for fancy names ignoring everything.
Having said that, I am not sure what your other options were that could have fit in this setup so can't say much.
If his entire defence is so high up and everyone is staying back then Eusebio will be on the shoulder.
Only Ayala's pace seems to be an issue for me there which he makes up with his reading of the game.
More importantly you have Eusebio who is not playing on the shoulder of Ayala or Nesta but a lot deeper as he usually did which is why he is against Silva. Who are you aiming the high balls at?
You do realise though that if those conditions are met then he has five people attacking seven? And they are meant to succeed and also be immensely successful at pressing them into a bad pass.
It's far easier not to commit what people are doing and let everyone optimistically imagine 10 supermen, clearly.
Not quite sure that's the best way to use him. I'd rather have him drop in spaces between the CBs and Silva which was what I was thinking so far and he'll be more effective from there IMO.
5 attacking 7 yes but a couple of those are good enough to warrant being double marked. Plus on your instructions Facchetti is going forward a lot so it could be 5v6 at times with the front 3 all great in any 1v1.
Which was the idea from the outset but at this stage I frankly have no idea where Cutch's defenders are supposed to be. They are putting out fires everywhere and generally being awesome at closing out an entire half of the pitch despite facing pacier counter specialists serviced by excellent ball distributors.
Go figure.
Over and out.
He is never ging to move the ball around quickly enough for Facchetti not to be back. I said the passing range from his defeders wasn't critical, but it sure as feck makes his build up slower. Rivera is very closely guarded as well, Facchetti has loads of time to get back.
I have absolutely ZERO concern about his right flank, ZERO concern about out wide on the left and the only part of the pitch was worried about was the one-two and slipping a ball in between CB and RB. On the back of that, despite Zanetti being there and a core three of Hierro-Desailly and Cech I seem to be conceding more than him.
That with the entire team having no clue what they are supposed to be doing and having prepared for a different game. The manager himself asked for time to work it out.
Nuts.
Not over by any means this. Cutch was always going to get early votes due the names he has while your team needs a lot more analysis to see what everyone is doing.
Over 14 hours to go with plenty to vote. If the last game is anything to go by, there's a lot more votes up for grabs!
Over 14 hours to go with plenty to vote. If the last game is anything to go by, there's a lot more votes up for grabs!
That's quite a good point. It was surely a curveball!