A less OTT and reactionary piece on our transfers this summer

Wumminator

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http://www.theguardian.com/football...nited-ander-herrera-transfer-farce?CMP=twt_gu




Manchester United's failed attempt to sign Ander Herrera is not the only time the Premier League champions have experienced bizarre tactics at the top end of the market during a difficult, complicated transfer windowthat has brought fierce criticism on the club.
United's information is that earlier this summer a forged email, purporting to originate from Old Trafford and reputedly confirming their interest in a player, was sent to another club in an apparent attempt to trigger a rival bid and ramp up the price. That player has subsequently moved, for significant money, with the buying club under the false impression they were beating United to him.
The revelation is an insight into some of the tricks employed by clubs, agents and other middle men when such vast sums of money are swilling around before the transfer deadline. However, it is the Herrera deal that has caused the most consternation behind the scenes at Old Trafford and, specifically, the role of the three lawyers who turned up at the offices of the Spanish league (the LFP) on Monday apparently purporting to have United's authorisation to sign off the €36m (£30.4m) buyout clause.
The club are aware that journalists have been briefed by sources at the Spanish league that the three men – identified as Rodrigo García Lucas, Alvaro Reig Gurrea and Guillermo Gutiérrez, from the Spanish law firm Laffer – were, in fact, operating officially on United's behalf.
United's position is that surely the only confirmation of this should come from Old Trafford and they have reiterated, categorically, that they did not know of these men, recognise them or commission them.
United employ their own legal firm in Spain but did not mobilise it for one simple reason: no agreement was reached with Athletic Bilbao and they never had any intention of paying the full price when they valued Herrera £10m lower.
Instead, the arrival of Laffer's lawyers – credited with helping to arrange Javi Martínez's transfer from Bilbao to Bayern Munich a year ago – created the impression the deal was imminent and led to a frenzy of speculation; the Bilbao newspaper El Correo compared the pursuit of Herrera to a Benny Hill sketch.
United's version is rather more straightforward. Having followed Herrera for two years, they had concluded he was worth around £20m, their feeling being it would be another 18 months or so before he was a guaranteed first-team pick. Bilbao insisted they wanted the full amount, no compromise was reached and that would have been it finished, in United's opinion, until the television pictures of Laffer's representatives led to the inaccurate impression that an agreement was close – building up hopes for a deal that had already failed. The Guardian on Tuesday night contacted the law firm Laffer who, for reasons of professional confidentiality, declined to comment or to reveal the identity of their client.
Two days on, there is still confusion at Old Trafford about the involvement of the three lawyers described on deadline night as "impostors" and United feel so strongly about it they have been willing to put their position on the record. Herrera has also, to a point, backed their story. "I do not feel used by United. How can I feel used? They made a formal offer. Athletic did not want to negotiate, I value that. They [United] had to pay the €36m clause. I reached no agreement with United. I am proud they made an offer for me, and that Athletic wanted me [to stay]."
Herrera's agent has been in touch with United to ascertain if they knew who the lawyers were. United's response was emphatically no. Herrera added: "The lawyers that were at the LFP did not represent me. I didn't even know who they were."
It is a confusing, complex and embarrassing issue for United, even if it is true it was not a farce of their own making. What is beyond dispute is that they have found the transfer window frustrating and unsatisfactory. They are, however, a lot more relaxed about it than might be anticipated and bemused, too, about some of the mistruths that have accompanied the genuine disappointments.
United are taken aback, for example, by the latest suggestion they challenged Arsenal for Mesut Ozil. The truth is that United and Manchester City were both offered the player three weeks ago. United turned it down because they had already made up their mind that Wayne Rooney would not be leaving and they did not want to break their transfer record, paying upwards of £40m, for someone who plays in the same position.
Their thinking also took into account they have Shinji Kagawa, among others, for the No10 role. Kagawa still features prominently in the thinking of David Moyes despite not even being on the bench against Liverpool on Sunday. His problem is two-fold: one, that he has had an exhausting summer with his national team and is being brought back slowly; two, that Moyes has not really seen him play or got to know him very well. He is not, however, being marginalised.
United rebuffed an approach from Atlético Madrid for the Japan international and would have done the same if Borussia Dortmund had been in touch. As it was, there has not been a single telephone call from the Bundesliga club, despite talking up a possible return.
Juan Mata is a player United like but linking the Chelsea midfielder with a move to Old Trafford was, like Ozil, a red herring. Mata, as Chelsea have repeatedly stated, was not for sale; it is just that some people did not believe them. United did not try to get him and he was never mooted in a cash-plus-player exchange with Rooney because, as the Guardianrevealed last month, Rooney was never going to be allowed to join Chelsea, no matter what the offer. Behind the scenes at Old Trafford, there is frustration that this has largely been overlooked when it has taken up so much time and effort and, in their opinion, could be the difference between United winning the title or not.
Rooney's determination to force a transfer, with a proactive agent in Paul Stretford, and Chelsea doing everything they could to push it has been such a major issue at Old Trafford it is estimated to have taken up more than half the time that United's top-level officials have devoted to working on player arrivals and departures. United were determined to make a show of force and efforts are continuing behind the scenes to convince Rooney that he can, once again, be happy at Old Trafford. It is an ongoing process and there is an acceptance it will not be easy. However, it is being seen as a victory of sorts that they refused to cave in, as a point of principle, when the alternative was potentially to see him scoring 20 goals a season at Chelsea for the next few years.
That still leaves a lot of unanswered questions such as why United paid £27.5m for Marouane Fellaini when his buyout clause could have been activated earlier in the summer for £4m less. The long pursuit of Cesc Fábregas was fundamentally flawed because they were encouraged to believe he was open to the offer; United, in short, were told Fábregas was increasingly agitated about his potential lack of games for Barcelona in a World Cup year – but ultimately they could not get the man they regarded as their top target and they recognise that amounts to a long, drawn-out failure.
The issue of Thiago Alcântara also needs clearing up. In his case, it has been portrayed as him snubbing United for Bayern Munich when the truth is actually that Moyes decided he was not entirely comfortable going for the Barcelona player. United had been monitoring him for three years and effectively lined up the transfer but Moyes, as everyone at Everton can testify, likes to have a huge amount of background information on new signings and, having initially gone along with it, decided in the end he did not want to take someone else's word about a player he had seen infrequently. Again, it boils down to a new manager shopping in a new market, with a limited amount of time.
United had not wanted to overrule Moyes and promised they would keep their squad together, with the exception of Bébé. They have kept true to that and, as well as rejecting the approach for Kagawa, they turned down a Tottenham offer for Javier Hernández and at least five approaches from different clubs for Nani.
That, nonetheless, does not change the fact Moyes had wanted two central midfielders as well as a rival left-back to Patrice Evra, missing out on Leighton Baines and then Fábio Coentrão. On that basis, there is a frank admission at Old Trafford that they have come up short by bringing in only Fellaini.
United, however, are angry about the suggestion, emanating from the Herrera farce, that a club of their stature and transfer experience somehow failed to understand the Spanish tax system – and bewildered, more than anything, that they are supposed to have employed three lawyers they say they had never heard of.

--------

A fantastic insight and certainly covered up certain misconceptions. Certainly a better story than what posters here have believed​
 

UnofficialDevil

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Ok, this
Rooney's determination to force a transfer, with a proactive agent in Paul Stretford, and Chelsea doing everything they could to push it has been such a major issue at Old Trafford it is estimated to have taken up more than half the time that United's top-level officials have devoted to working on player arrivals and departures.
is just silly.


And this
The issue of Thiago Alcântara also needs clearing up. In his case, it has been portrayed as him snubbing United for Bayern Munich when the truth is actually that Moyes decided he was not entirely comfortable going for the Barcelona player. United had been monitoring him for three years and effectively lined up the transfer but Moyes, as everyone at Everton can testify, likes to have a huge amount of background information on new signings and, having initially gone along with it, decided in the end he did not want to take someone else's word about a player he had seen infrequently.
is extremely annoying.
 

dev1l

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This version makes sense imo....I just hope woody & co learned some lessons from it. I wont be surprised if we make one or two signings in january..and this time we shall be more prepared
 

gza the genius

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Yeah I'm not really sure how dealing with Rooney could have taken up half the time of our officials. Saying no to Chelsea's offers seems pretty straight forward. The Thiago bit is annoying as well, but I suppose I'll trust Moyes has plans for future transfer windows. The rest of the article makes our summer seem much better than it felt at the time. The low bids for Fabregas and waiting so long to make bids on everyone else still seems like a huge mistake on our part.
 

buckooo1978

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good article

miffed that we didnt go in for Thiago - a blind man could see his talent

if we werent interested in Thiago why didnt we get in for Fabregas early?

Fellaini is a good signing but why didnt we have it signed at the beginning of the window - apart from the ££££ he would have been integrated into the team - certainly would have helped at Anfield

amazing how clubs and players use our name to their own ends in terms of transfer fees and contracts
 

Red-Indian

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A fair bit of glossing over but a decent enough view. Couple of things I don't understand.

- United have not publicly denied any association with the lawyers (despite briefing journalists off the record). Ander Herrara has been categorical. United have not. Unless they do that, it's hard to take these indirect denials at face value

- Rooney taking up half the time of top level officials is a bit silly. Sure it must have been annoying but if it takes half the time of several individuals to keep saying no to Chelsea and reassuring Rooney that he has a future at United, then we're doing something wrong

- I don't get the either/or on Fabregas and Fellaini to explain why we missed Fellaini's clause. First they're entirely different players. Second if Fellaini was our second choice, we should've insisted on getting a firm yes or no from Barcelona before the clause expired. In fact, I think we sort of did (though I don't remember the exact timelines)
 

amolbhatia50k

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Hope the thiago stuff is bullshit. Daft from our perspective if true.
 

jojojo

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That's an interesting response from United.

It was always the case that up until late Sunday night everyone's versions of the Herrera story agreed. United make bid - bid rejected - Athletic did not expect us to meet the release clause figure.

All the weirdness was on Monday and whatever triggered it was either somebody seriously overstepping their authority - an agent claiming to be a United intermediary perhaps or one of the great hoaxes of the twitter era. Until I hear somebody declaring himself to have won WUM of the day, I'm going to guess it was an intermediary who got carried away.

That whoever did it managed to rope in a law firm and a sport agency as well as the journalists suggests it was more than just some twittering random.

I wonder if we'll ever find out.

I don't believe the bit about the "year or two" to make a first team regular though - even if United said it.

And on Thiago, that's just madness. At 20m he was the ultimate value in the market signing and as good a bet as you're likely to see in the transfer market.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Hope the thiago stuff is bullshit. Daft from our perspective if true.
Not really if you think about it from Moyes' perspective. New manager, spends a fair bit on what critics would be quick to call a Barcelona reject and if he doesn't work out they'd be calling for his head. They'll be calling for his head until he wins a trophy but you don't need any excess when it comes to that.
 

sullydnl

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Think there's a lot of truth in that, though it'd obviously be naive to take it as gospel. The club will inevitably try to put forward a side of the argument that makes them look less inept, doesn't mean it'll be true. For example, I don't believe for a second that we weren't in contact with Herrera.
 

Oggmonster

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good article
o
if we werent interested in Thiago why didnt we get in for Fabregas early?

The article says the club were interesting in Thiago then Moyes came and went along with it at first before deciding he didn't want him in the end, seems like he was stuck in 2 minds (which is what a few Everton fans said about him with transfers) makes sense though.

Decent article, it's not all doom and gloom like some others have been, I think it's a fairer assessment of things and gives another side to a story. I would of liked Thiago and am probably in the minority who think Baines would of added a lot more to the team than we've got now especially going forward (his set pieces probably bring 10-15 goals a season) but it will be tough for Moyes. He's allowed to make his own decisions and if he isn't comfortable signing the likes of Thiago then I think he's allowed that time to prove himself right. Some of the reactions from some fans has been laughable, it's like we've got a right to sign the likes of Messi and Ronaldo every summer.
 

Baxter

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Thiago was available for less than Fellaini. Surely we never backed out of the deal? Absolutely ridiculous if so.
 

sullydnl

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I think it says a lot that even an article with a pro-United slant accepts that the Fabregas bid and overpaying for Fellaini were serious failures. Looking back, the Fabregas bids caused us the most difficulty as they seemed to delay any other bids we might make. That delay probably led to the Fellaini price hike as well as the deadline day fiasco.
 

Siorac

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Not really if you think about it from Moyes' perspective. New manager, spends a fair bit on what critics would be quick to call a Barcelona reject and if he doesn't work out they'd be calling for his head. They'll be calling for his head until he wins a trophy but you don't need any excess when it comes to that.
Come on, he signed a player from his own former team for more than what Thiago would have cost. If he's worried about the backlash of the fans and the media he would have left Fellaini alone.

I very much hope the Thiago part of the article is bullshit. His agent is Guardiola's brother so we never had a chance: that's the version I'm sticking to. If Moyes didn't want him... well let's just say that would be very, very worrying.
 

Sandikan

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Certainly can believe the Ozil bit.

When Rooney's chief bugbear seems to be not being a top man, to buy in a player for the same position would be madness. Especially for way over our all time record.
And no I couldn't have seen us trying to play some wingless wonder system with Rooney, Kagawa and Ozil behind the VP man!
 

LR7

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The Thiago thing pisses me off the most in that article tbh. If that's true it beats all the other foolishness that went on in this window (and there was a lot). Its the one we will regret the most imo and makes Moyes look indecisive.​

Besides that. The mollycoddling of Rooney seems annoying. The excuse for not getting our transfer business done seems to be that a whole lot of time and energy went into keeping Rooney. It's not like we had to draw up a complex new contract or negotiate a new deal so I'm not entirely sure why it took focus off getting much needed players in.

Also the line about it being a long process convincing him he can be happy here again grates, given that he's been pushing to leave.

Back to Herrera, whilst the club seem to be trying to save face in all this, why did we try to lowball Bilbao when we knew his release clause? It doesn't make the club look clever because everyone knows he wasn't leaving for a euro less than the clause fee. Trying to bag a bargain time and time again has made the club look stingy and has clearly backfired (particularly with Fellaini). It was at the end of the window, Bilbao didn't want to lose the player and he wasn't pushing for a move, they had no time to replace him given how late we came in for him - what made us think they were going to accept that low offer? There's no dressing it up I'm afraid.
 

paceme

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Come on, he signed a player from his own former team for more than what Thiago would have cost. If he's worried about the backlash of the fans and the media he would have left Fellaini alone.

I very much hope the Thiago part of the article is bullshit. His agent is Guardiola's brother so we never had a chance: that's the version I'm sticking to. If Moyes didn't want him... well let's just say that would be very, very worrying.
Not being 100% is not the same as not wanting is it?

I'm sure Moyes would like to know more than simply his ability I.e his personality and how he would fit in, would he be happy in England, what's his attitude like to training? Loads of little things us fans don't really think about.
 

Moriarty

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Thiago was available for less than Fellaini. Surely we never backed out of the deal? Absolutely ridiculous if so.
In my opinion, he went to Bayern because of Pep and for that reason alone. Pep tipped the scales. I'm pretty sure that United would always be interested in players of his calibre.
 

Striker10

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I hope we learn a few things. The first is to be decisive. Leaving it late isn't the best. Don't talk about buying the best and then make stupid bits resulting in a significant loss of time. The final point is if a player comes up and the club are serious about the player, have a cut off point for haggling. Maybe someone at the club thinks it's great we brought Fallaini in this late, but MAYBE he might just have made a difference against liverpool and Chelsea. Who knows? It's a big redundant down and we'll have to accept the 1 point and 5 lost.

Woodwood should also grow a set of balls and learn the beautiful game.
 

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The Thiago bit pisses me off if it's true, everyone can see his talent. Anyway, that ship has sailed.

Strange that United value Herrera at 20m but signed Fellaini at 27.5m. Mind boggling.
 

simonhch

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Back to Herrera, whilst the club seem to be trying to save face in all this, why did we try to lowball Bilbao when we knew his release clause? It doesn't make the club look clever because everyone knows he wasn't leaving for a euro less than the clause fee. Trying to bag a bargain time and time again has made the club look stingy and has clearly backfired (particularly with Fellaini). It was at the end of the window, Bilbao didn't want to lose the player and he wasn't pushing for a move, they had no time to replace him given how late we came in for him - what made us think they were going to accept that low offer? There's no dressing it up I'm afraid.
But if we don't value him at 36M (His release clause) and our valuation falls significantly short of that, wouldn't we at least attempt to strike a compromise? Or should we just walk away saying "well everyone knows they won't negotiate"? I don't have any problem with what the club did here in terms of his valuation. 36M for Herrera is silly money. What I do disagree with the club over, and agree with you on, is the timing of it all. It seems as though this is an offer that should've gone in a month ago.

I think it was always going to take 2-3 transfer windows for Moyes to do the background and scouting he needed to get the players in he wanted. Fabregas was an ambitious play and we were obviously led to believe that he wanted to come. I think he would've done had Vilanova not left the club.
 

LR7

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That article has actually made me more irritated about Thiago than I was before.
 

SER19

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watch this thread get barely any response compared to the hysterical ones, or option b, watch it disintegrate into a hysterical one.
 

UnofficialDevil

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Ridiculous article.United followed Herrera for two years, they had concluded he was worth £20 made bid, United followed Thiago for three years, they do not want to pay the £20 because he didnt want to take someone else's word about a player he had seen infrequently..
 

simonhch

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The Thiago bit pisses me off if it's true, everyone can see his talent. Anyway, that ship has sailed.

Strange that United value Herrera at 20m but signed Fellaini at 27.5m. Mind boggling.
How is it mind boggling? He's an uncapped 24 year old with a modest performance record. Admittedly Spain have ridiculous depths of riches in midfield, but by comparison Fellaini has 6 years of Premiership experience (this is relevant as we play in the Premier League) and 42 caps to his name. He's been the/one of the best midfielder(s) outside the top 6 for a while. Maybe one doesn't quite agree with the valuations but it's hardly mind boggling. As far as I'm aware Herrera has hardly ever set the world alight. He's just way overpriced because he's Basque.
 

LR7

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But if we don't value him at 36M (His release clause) and our valuation falls significantly short of that, wouldn't we at least attempt to strike a compromise? Or should we just walk away saying "well everyone knows they won't negotiate"? I don't have any problem with what the club did here in terms of his valuation. 36M for Herrera is silly money. What I do disagree with the club over, and agree with you on, is the timing of it all. It seems as though this is an offer that should've gone in a month ago.

I think it was always going to take 2-3 transfer windows for Moyes to do the background and scouting he needed to get the players in he wanted. Fabregas was an ambitious play and we were obviously led to believe that he wanted to come. I think he would've done had Vilanova not left the club.
Everyone knows how Bilbao handles player sales and the complexities involved in paying the clause/ tax/ player depositing the fee etc. It took Bayern months to finalise Martinez. Us rocking up 24 hrs before the window shuts with an audacious low offer seems beyond stupid, it would have been difficult enough to pull off in such a short time even if we had offered up the full clause, but we never intended to. Why the hell did we think it was ever going to be successful? It was silly.
 

esmufc07

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Ridiculous article. United followed Herrera for two years, they had concluded he was worth around £20m, United followed Thiago him for three years, they
did not pay the £20m because he didn't want to take someone else's word about a player he had seen infrequently...
Was just about to bring this up. That aside the rest of the article seems to ring true and certainly makes much more sense than the rubbish that has been written in the last few days. Glad we rebuffed bids for Nani
 

jojojo

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Not being 100% is not the same as not wanting is it?

I'm sure Moyes would like to know more than simply his ability I.e his personality and how he would fit in, would he be happy in England, what's his attitude like to training? Loads of little things us fans don't really think about.

But those have always been issues that United have included when scouting players.

What may have changed with Moyes is the checklist and he may not yet have much faith in our scouts, but still, Thiago at 30m could be considered a risk, but at 20m he's in the category of promising, unproven talent.
 

noodlehair

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Taylor is usually right or at least close wth his United info but lots of bits of that make no sense.

Moyes was sure he wanted 2 midfielders but not sure enough to try and sign the best one available for a bargan price? A signing which would have been approved by Fergie if it was already in place...and yet Moyes also wanted the squad which Fergie assembled to be kept together. I mean, huh?

Why would over half of United's time have been spent on Wayne Rooney if the club had decided not to sell him regardless of the offer? If that's the case there was no work to be done.
 

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Everyone knows how Bilbao handles player sales and the complexities involved in paying the clause/ tax/ player depositing the fee etc. It took Bayern months to finalise Martinez. Us rocking up 24 hrs before the window shuts with an audacious low offer seems beyond stupid, it would have been difficult enough to pull off in such a short time even if we had offered up the full clause, but we never intended to. Why the hell did we think it was ever going to be successful? It was silly.
How is 26M Euros for Herrera "audaciously low"? Isn't a 36M Euro release clause preposterously high? Bayern had to pay only 4M euros more for Martinez who is twice the player Herrera is. I don't think we should go about paying releases clauses just to get deals done. 36M for Herrera was ridiculous. Glad the club didn't pay that. However to reiterate, I agree with you that the timing was odd.
 

Comsmit

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A nothing article really, doesn't provide any insight it's just fairly subjective. Simply cannot believe the dumb section on Thiago. If Moyes was responsible in that way then he is without doubt a complete berk. I refuse to believe he does not know how good that player is.

The same questions remain,

Why did they attempt to buy Herrera under a week before the deadline, when anyone with a brain could see the deal would be complex?
Why did they only offer £20 million when they should know damn well Athletic Bilbao do not negotiate for their players?
Why is Ander Herrera not worth his buy-out clause but Sami Khedira is suddenly worth £34 million on deadline day?

People can try and spin United's summer in a positive way but anyone can see it's been a shocker, Fellaini doesn't change that.