Regardless of that Everton tweet we are looking at nearer 23M for Fellaini.
Moyes knows him better and he's proven PL and international premium. Not too bizarre really
A less OTT and reactionary piece on our transfers this summer
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Moyes knows him better and he's proven PL and international premium. Not too bizarre really
Sensible post.
Add to that the bit about it being necessary that the 1st signing was the right one and I get the feeling he didnt want to risk making an expensive mistake in his 1st summer here.
What you had been suggesting indicated to me you didn't know how they operate that's all. I've never lived in Spain and I've closely followed Athletic for years. The thing I'm trying to put across is....when Bilbao obviously do not negotiate on their assets, why set your own valuation by offering £20 million when the club has no need or want to sell? If you want to talk to the player you pay the release clause and you go from there, otherwise there is just no point in bidding. Bilbao's valuation of Ander Herrera is all that matters in this case, not Manchester United's. Overpaying for players is a common trend in the current market, whether people like it or not. Bayern admitted it was crazy money for Javi Martinez but in the long term he is worth the investment.
I say again though. If Fellaini is worth £27.5 million, and Sami Khedira £34million of United's money.....why is Herrera not worth his buyout clause? It's in the middle of those two figures, and the ability of the player is arguably superior.
At the risk of losing ground on the others?
Thiago was neither expensive nor risky. We had been scouting the lad for three years.
And what would that expensive mistake be according to Moyes? Thiago for 18m?
Yep.
Again I think it is naive to think that's all there is to keeping Rooney. We know Moyes has had extensive talks with the player and I'm pretty sure plenty has gone on behind the scenes. Not just as simple as turning offers down, we want the player to stay and sign a new deal, not just leave him unhappy as that does no party any good
I think, and have said it previously, Moyes simply hasn't had enough time with the squad to know what he wants to do with it or implement his scouting set up which is famously well known at Everton. That's been our major issue, hence no players leaving and only Fellaini coming in. A player who he knows very well. Even the Coentrao deal was to be a loan only as he didn't want to commit fully. He's clearly quite careful and methodical in what he does.
The Khedira thing is bollocks, I suspect it was nothing more than an inquiry, and I have no idea where the £34million sum has come from. Certainly not Khedira. Doesn't make sense does it? We were trying to sign Fellaini, Herrera AND Khedira in the final hours of deadline day? Nah...
And what would that expensive mistake be according to Moyes? Thiago for 18m?
Yes and Thiago has said we never made contact with him. How do you explain that if not the manager not wanting to risk taking a punt on someone with talent but not proven in the league? We paid more for Fellaini after all.
Fellaini could end up being the expensive mistake if he doesn't improve us significantly given that he cost £27m. You have to be bold as the manager of Manchester United not avoid making decisions in case they're not right. Even Fergie got it wrong sometimes.
And risk losing his job at the same time?
Don't you agree that was a bad move though? Not quite sure what Moyes was playing at there (if reports are to be believed of course)
Careful enough to think he knows better than the greatest manager ever that was only at his club for 26 years. But no he hasn't had enough time to know what he wants to do.
It's an excuse, I can't imagine keeping a player who's contracted to you anyway takes so much time that you cannot do anything else.
I think Coentrao was loan only as we woke up at last minute after Everton made it clear they wouldn't sell us Baines and there'd have been no time for medical and paperwork to move for Coentrao so we took the only option there was.
Don't want to turn this into a Herrera vs Fellaini argument but its amazing that people aren't factoring the comparative strength of the Spanish midfield and the competition therein when asking why Herrera hasn't been capped yet. Arteta is a key player at Arsenal and is nowhere near the squad whereas in the 2011 Euro U21s final Herrera was one of Spain's 2 goalscorers (the other being Thiago). Yes, Thiago is more naturally talented but the idea that Herrera wont play full international football for Spain once their present golden generation of midfielders starts to give way to the next is difficult, for me, to accept.
This.
United putting a brave face on it I think but, still, managing to salvage no credibility. The story's clearly been fed by the club to Taylor. Frankly, they'd have done better just to keep quiet. This makes Moyes looks indecisive, unable to see the merits of extremely talented prospects, and distrustful of the United scouting system that found us players like Javier Hernandez and Cristiano Ronaldo.
Khedira has publically stated United made an offer for him. The fee is widely reported to have been £34million. I don't know if it makes sense, why would I have a clue what United's policy is? I don't think even they do. The facts remain that they were unwilling to meet Herrera's clause but offered big money for Khedira and paid over the odds for Fellaini in a last gasp move that nearly missed the deadline.
The situation's different mate. SAF could get away with anything, he'd earnt that, its not the same with Moyes. Am not defending what he said as right but how else do you explain saying the 1st signing had to be the right one?
eh? Really think he could lose his job because he decided to sign Fellaini instead of Thiago? Its not as if he decided not to buy anyone and sell Carrick at the same time and thus risk fecking the entire season up. He just wanted to go for a safer option, players he knew well or players that he felt were a safe bet to succeed in the prem. Not the right way to go about it imo but the conclusion i draw seeing the transfer we finally made and the statement about the 1st signing needing to be the right one.
Of course. If it's true I think it will be our biggest regret of the summer despite the other transfer window clusterfecks we were involved in.
No, we're not. Fellaini cost us £27.5m and the only difference made by him waiving the loyalty fee is that Everton keep all the money without having to pay him £2m to £4m (depending on which sources you believe) from the fee.
If the article is accurate, then it exonerates Ed Wood for alot the mayhem.
It seems the key reason for our indecision was in fact Moyes, who could not provide single minded clarity on what he wanted. He needs to sort that out pronto.
It seems the key reason for our indecision was in fact Moyes, who could not provide single minded clarity on what he wanted. He needs to sort that out pronto.
His first signing could've been not only be the right one, but one the best ones United ever made, something SAF had been trying to do for years. Thiago for 18m.
SAF could also get away with playing with a deficient midfield and still winning the league at a canter. Our rivals have strengthened though.
Is Fellaini 'the right one'? Yet he's ended up the only one. At a very inflated fee too.
I think it's fair to say a number of factors have hindered our business.
1. The Rooney saga
2. The Nani saga
3. Moyes not having much time in the role
4. New backroom staff and scouts
5. Departure of Sir Alex
6. Departure of David Gill
7. Inexperience of Edward Woodward.
A heck of alot to sort through in a hectic summer in my opinion. There's been a lack of continuity along with a number of inter club issue to address in a short period of time. It's easy to see why things have been so sporadic on our part.
Good point.
I agree, I've been fuming at slaphead for the past couple of days but it seems Moyes is the one that fecked up.
I keep an open mind. One good thing about not getting involved in release clauses is you don't have to pay the full sum outright
As far as 3,4,5,6, and 7 goes, a bomb didn't fall on Manchester United we knew all that and should have planned ahead which we I'm sure we did. Someone fecked up and it now seems that that was Moyes.
Well, it's good to see the club deciding to brief Daniel Taylor in an effort to stop all the hyperbolic nonsense that was being spouted about Woody has resulted in Moyes now being blamed for everything.
£27.5m is £27.5m. Fellaini couldn't affect how much United would pay by giving up on the money Everton would have to pay him, he could only affect how much from what United pay would be pocketed by Everton.
Perhaps he didnt see it that way unlike the rest of us?
Yep, but he's certainly someone Moyes knows inside out and has been successful in the prem, so its a low risk transfer.
Christ you have some massive wood for this guy, don't you? Even if we did bid the £18m do you think he'd have chose us over the chance to work with Guardiola again?
Illarramendo was 32m Euros, £27m. The reason Madrid deposited 39m Euros to pay his release clause was they needed to pay IVA (VAT) at 21% - being a VAT registered business they now have the VAT back, so 32m.
Herrera was 36m Euros (+ maybe up to 1.8m Euros training levy) over £30m. If we rated him at £20m then of course we couldn't pay the clause, it's as simple as that. Provided we were honest with Herrera and Athletic then that's fair enough. I still reckon someone at United knows who it was continued to make United look active on the Herrera deal on Monday, and why it was done, but I suspect we won't find out for sure until they write their memoirs.
On a Spanish midfielder scale the bargain was Thiago, as good in its own way as the Bremen to Madrid deal for Ozil. But of course, it's Moyes' team, if he doesn't rate him then he can't get on the phone and tell him, "you'll be a key player for us," and in that deal confidence mattered to the player. It was about more than just whether we were willing to pay the cash or not.
Herrera was 36m Euros (+ maybe up to 1.8m Euros training levy) over £30m. If we rated him at £20m then of course we couldn't pay the clause, it's as simple as that. Provided we were honest with Herrera and Athletic then that's fair enough. I still reckon someone at United knows who it was continued to make United look active on the Herrera deal on Monday, and why it was done, but I suspect we won't find out for sure until they write their memoirs.
On a Spanish midfielder scale the bargain was Thiago, as good in its own way as the Bremen to Madrid deal for Ozil. But of course, it's Moyes' team, if he doesn't rate him then he can't get on the phone and tell him, "you'll be a key player for us," and in that deal confidence mattered to the player. It was about more than just whether we were willing to pay the cash or not.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/ten-things-manchester-united-wrong-5836534
The 2013 summer transfer window will go down as the most fraught and chaotic in United’s history. Old Trafford chief executive Ed Woodward has been given a verbal kicking on social media by the Reds support for his major part in the shambles.
The final hours were full on intrigue involving mystery imposters posing as United officials , target names appearing late on the radar from left field, transfer requests and stubborn sellers making the Reds sweat. In the end it was just Marouane Fellaini who was prised from his club by the champions.
It all left United’s fans asking questions about the whole mess. Here the M.E.N’s United reporter attempts to unravel and answer some of the many transfer window shenanigans.
1) Why did United pay £27.5m for Marouane Fellaini when they could have got him for £23.5m last month?
Everton chairman Bill Kenwright cleverly played hard ball over the Belgian midfielder. He was in the strong position of having an asset United were quite clearly desperate for and made them sweat. The Reds rubbed Everton up the wrong way with previous so-called “derisory and insulting” offers and they were prepared to take it to the wire.
In the end United were not prepared to go above the £23.5m they could have got him for and so Fellaini was forced to submit a transfer request and forego money he would have received when he left Goodison Park.
It cost him a multi-million pound wedge but Everton got the fee they wanted and United paid the price they wanted to pay. Though certain add-ons could take the final fee to £27.5m that is not the money United will shell out immediately.
2) What happened with the Ander Herrera deal?
All along Athletic Bilbao had said they didn’t want to sell and they are not a club that needs to sell. However, every player has a price and the Basque club valued the midfielder at 35m euros. If United had been prepared to pay that then Bilbao would have reluctantly let Herrera go.
Though manager David Moyes was extremely keen on bringing him to Old Trafford, United did not agree on Bilbao’s valuation and wouldn’t pay over the odds. They tried to negotiate down but were unsuccessful. Neither side would budge and so the deal collapsed.
3) Why did the club go public on the Cesc Fabregas deal?
It was a new open strategy that chief executive Ed Woodward thought would prove successful. It showed the fans United were active in the market where previously it was all hush-hush and both the media and supporters were frustrated by the policy.
But it proved a disaster. Great for the media and good for the fans to dream about getting a player of Fabregas’s calibre but when it all falls through you are made to publicly look humiliated to a large degree.
Had United landed Fabregas it would have been hailed as a refreshing way forward but, as it turned out, the policy spectacularly blew up in Woodward’s face.
4) The Leighton Baines deal festered all summer - why did United not pay a realistic price and get the deal done?
Again it is simply down to United’s valuation of a player. Understandably you are not going to go in from day one with your biggest bid. That’s the nature of any business deal and so the Reds' initial offer of around £12m was just a taster.
The joint package offer of £28m for the left back and Fellaini didn’t really add much more value to Baines . Everton wanted the two deals done separately so it was transparent how much they had reaped for both.
United topped out at £15m and Everton still didn’t think it was enough. At that point United were not prepared to pay over the odds and pulled out.
5) The late attempt to get Fabio Coentrao fell through. Why was he not identified earlier?
Leighton Baines was the priority target for a position that most United fans didn’t even think was a priority considering the fine form of Patrice Evra.
Obviously David Moyes doesn’t quite share the same full confidence in the strength of the position with Evra and his understudy Alex Buttner. Balls are always being juggled in the transfer market with generally more than one option on the go.
Once it became known that Real’s Portuguese left back was potentially up for grabs United registered their interest but didn’t move until the Baines scenario ended. However, Real couldn’t get their replacement left back, Brazilian Guilherme Siqueira from Granada, in time as Benfica had already agreed a loan deal with him and wouldn’t back out of the agreement so the late Coentrao interest came and went rapidly.
6) What happened about Ed Woodward’s ‘urgent business’ flight from Australia?
Nothing obviously! He returned from the pre-season tour to Australia and the Far East and it was to pursue a target in Europe.
The timing suggests it was to land Cesc Fabregas from Barcelona but clearly nothing emerged from that urgent business trip.
7) Why did United not go in for Mesut Ozil?
Arsenal’s club record £42.4m capture of the German international midfielder from Real Madrid was the stand-out window transfer as far as the Premier League was concerned.
Immediately news broke that the Gunners were actively pursuing Ozil, ears pricked up among United fans that the Reds would do battle with them. The 24-year-old had been linked as one of the names that could be sacrificed at the Bernabeu to make room for Gareth Bale.
He ticked the boxes as far as the attention needed on United’s midfield department but it is now understood that Ozil was never discussed at Old Trafford as the club went for other targets instead.
The 2013 summer transfer window will go down as the most fraught and chaotic in United’s history. Old Trafford chief executive Ed Woodward has been given a verbal kicking on social media by the Reds support for his major part in the shambles.
The final hours were full on intrigue involving mystery imposters posing as United officials , target names appearing late on the radar from left field, transfer requests and stubborn sellers making the Reds sweat. In the end it was just Marouane Fellaini who was prised from his club by the champions.
It all left United’s fans asking questions about the whole mess. Here the M.E.N’s United reporter attempts to unravel and answer some of the many transfer window shenanigans.
1) Why did United pay £27.5m for Marouane Fellaini when they could have got him for £23.5m last month?
Everton chairman Bill Kenwright cleverly played hard ball over the Belgian midfielder. He was in the strong position of having an asset United were quite clearly desperate for and made them sweat. The Reds rubbed Everton up the wrong way with previous so-called “derisory and insulting” offers and they were prepared to take it to the wire.
In the end United were not prepared to go above the £23.5m they could have got him for and so Fellaini was forced to submit a transfer request and forego money he would have received when he left Goodison Park.
It cost him a multi-million pound wedge but Everton got the fee they wanted and United paid the price they wanted to pay. Though certain add-ons could take the final fee to £27.5m that is not the money United will shell out immediately.
2) What happened with the Ander Herrera deal?
All along Athletic Bilbao had said they didn’t want to sell and they are not a club that needs to sell. However, every player has a price and the Basque club valued the midfielder at 35m euros. If United had been prepared to pay that then Bilbao would have reluctantly let Herrera go.
Though manager David Moyes was extremely keen on bringing him to Old Trafford, United did not agree on Bilbao’s valuation and wouldn’t pay over the odds. They tried to negotiate down but were unsuccessful. Neither side would budge and so the deal collapsed.
3) Why did the club go public on the Cesc Fabregas deal?
It was a new open strategy that chief executive Ed Woodward thought would prove successful. It showed the fans United were active in the market where previously it was all hush-hush and both the media and supporters were frustrated by the policy.
But it proved a disaster. Great for the media and good for the fans to dream about getting a player of Fabregas’s calibre but when it all falls through you are made to publicly look humiliated to a large degree.
Had United landed Fabregas it would have been hailed as a refreshing way forward but, as it turned out, the policy spectacularly blew up in Woodward’s face.
4) The Leighton Baines deal festered all summer - why did United not pay a realistic price and get the deal done?
Again it is simply down to United’s valuation of a player. Understandably you are not going to go in from day one with your biggest bid. That’s the nature of any business deal and so the Reds' initial offer of around £12m was just a taster.
The joint package offer of £28m for the left back and Fellaini didn’t really add much more value to Baines . Everton wanted the two deals done separately so it was transparent how much they had reaped for both.
United topped out at £15m and Everton still didn’t think it was enough. At that point United were not prepared to pay over the odds and pulled out.
5) The late attempt to get Fabio Coentrao fell through. Why was he not identified earlier?
Leighton Baines was the priority target for a position that most United fans didn’t even think was a priority considering the fine form of Patrice Evra.
Obviously David Moyes doesn’t quite share the same full confidence in the strength of the position with Evra and his understudy Alex Buttner. Balls are always being juggled in the transfer market with generally more than one option on the go.
Once it became known that Real’s Portuguese left back was potentially up for grabs United registered their interest but didn’t move until the Baines scenario ended. However, Real couldn’t get their replacement left back, Brazilian Guilherme Siqueira from Granada, in time as Benfica had already agreed a loan deal with him and wouldn’t back out of the agreement so the late Coentrao interest came and went rapidly.
6) What happened about Ed Woodward’s ‘urgent business’ flight from Australia?
Nothing obviously! He returned from the pre-season tour to Australia and the Far East and it was to pursue a target in Europe.
The timing suggests it was to land Cesc Fabregas from Barcelona but clearly nothing emerged from that urgent business trip.
7) Why did United not go in for Mesut Ozil?
Arsenal’s club record £42.4m capture of the German international midfielder from Real Madrid was the stand-out window transfer as far as the Premier League was concerned.
Immediately news broke that the Gunners were actively pursuing Ozil, ears pricked up among United fans that the Reds would do battle with them. The 24-year-old had been linked as one of the names that could be sacrificed at the Bernabeu to make room for Gareth Bale.
He ticked the boxes as far as the attention needed on United’s midfield department but it is now understood that Ozil was never discussed at Old Trafford as the club went for other targets instead.
If SAF thought he was good enough then he was good enough, but seriously how can anybody think that Thiago for 18m could be anything else than a good buy for a team thats desperately in need for a midfielder?
Again Thiago for 18m is more of a low risk transfer than afroman for 27.
Low risk woud have been to continue with the player United had "lined up", scouted intensively over three years and Fergie liked, who was available at a very very low fee.
Fellaini, is quite an unpopular signing who I'd say is more of a risk than Thiago. Unless it all boils down to that silly old 'PL proven' argument again.
8) Did the Wayne Rooney saga take up to much time and energy?
United had two priorities this summer. One was to strengthen the midfield, which ultimately they did with the purchase of Marouane Fellaini; the other was to keep everybody’s hands off Rooney .
Despite the England striker’s break up of his working relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson, David Moyes felt he could get Rooney back on track and was adamant he wouldn’t be sold, hence the rebuff of two Chelsea bids.
In terms of actual man-hours the fact United’s hierarchy were involved in contract negotiations meant it didn’t impact on incoming transfer business. It was merely a side issue that took up some of Moyes’ time at press conferences.
9) Why did United not rival Real Madrid for Gareth Bale?
There was some interest from United in getting the Welshman to Old Trafford. But the Reds apparently quickly deduced that while the midfielder wanted to leave Tottenham he had set his heart on Real Madrid.
It was felt they would always be fighting a losing battle on this one and wasting time and energy.
10) Was Cristiano Ronaldo ever a viable option?
The reported package deal being put together by some of United’s major sponsors like Nike is understood never to have been a possibility. If Ronaldo had been bought the cash would have come strictly from United coffers and nowhere else. However, United effectively lost the ace up their sleeve when Sir Alex Ferguson retired.
Ronaldo always spoke of Fergie highly and as a father figure and he enjoyed an incredible welcome when he returned to Old Trafford for the Champions League last season. But the minute Fergie’s remarkable reign ended it was always going to be a long shot that the winger would return this summer.
United had two priorities this summer. One was to strengthen the midfield, which ultimately they did with the purchase of Marouane Fellaini; the other was to keep everybody’s hands off Rooney .
Despite the England striker’s break up of his working relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson, David Moyes felt he could get Rooney back on track and was adamant he wouldn’t be sold, hence the rebuff of two Chelsea bids.
In terms of actual man-hours the fact United’s hierarchy were involved in contract negotiations meant it didn’t impact on incoming transfer business. It was merely a side issue that took up some of Moyes’ time at press conferences.
9) Why did United not rival Real Madrid for Gareth Bale?
There was some interest from United in getting the Welshman to Old Trafford. But the Reds apparently quickly deduced that while the midfielder wanted to leave Tottenham he had set his heart on Real Madrid.
It was felt they would always be fighting a losing battle on this one and wasting time and energy.
10) Was Cristiano Ronaldo ever a viable option?
The reported package deal being put together by some of United’s major sponsors like Nike is understood never to have been a possibility. If Ronaldo had been bought the cash would have come strictly from United coffers and nowhere else. However, United effectively lost the ace up their sleeve when Sir Alex Ferguson retired.
Ronaldo always spoke of Fergie highly and as a father figure and he enjoyed an incredible welcome when he returned to Old Trafford for the Champions League last season. But the minute Fergie’s remarkable reign ended it was always going to be a long shot that the winger would return this summer.
Either way the main point was I don't think your critique of United's valuations are well founded
How on earth do you plan that!?