ye I dont understand the J/K stand move - the away section made perfect sense for so many reasons
Singing Section One Step Closer
- Thread starter Drifter
- Start date
I think the biggest problem will be supporters standing up, if regulars in J stand are used to sitting then it's going to cause a few arguments. After the success of the previous trial I am surprised the club want to change things.
Yeah, that would really feck things up, last thing we need. Do J not generally stand anyway, or is that more just K?
From what I've heard I don't think any seats were utilised at any point in the previous singing sections.
We won't have anything like that.
You've always got to look for improvements, and we'll have more numbers with better acoustics.
How come? Seems a genuine concern to me.
Not sure why the acoustics would be better either... noise from the L stands seems to come through pretty well.
I'm aware that it's been addressed, but we will see. A fair few regulars in the section not to keen on having to move mind. In all honesty, it's the easier option.
No harm in trying. The club are committed to trialling both areas based on acoustic studies.
Singing Section 2nd Trial gets league game go ahead
Following the success of the initial singing section trial against Real Sociedad in the Champions League, Manchester United have given permission to us as Fan's United, the go ahead to stage a 2nd trial. Fans United this week met with United officials to discuss the next singing section trial and how to take forward the prospect of a full time section for the start of the 2014/15 season.
For the Fulham Premier League home game on Sunday 9th Feb, the North/East Lower quadrant will be used to house a 2nd singing section trial. The section more affectionately known as J and K stands, will play host to 2,661 vocal United supporters, an increase on the initial 1,431 who took part in the Sociedad game trial. The 2,661 singing section seats will be located within blocks N1401, N2401, N2402 and East 239. Manchester United have been personally telephoning all season ticket holders within those seated areas to explain the circumstances and to facilitate their moves to an alternative seat.
During the study into the most effective areas to house the singing section, Manchester United commissioned an acoustics engineer, who studied the atmosphere, crowd volume and acoustics within Old Trafford. The findings of this study identified that the L-stand quadrant (Current away areas as used for the Sociedad trial) and the J/K stand quadrant were the best suited location to house a singing section. The club committed to trialling a section within both of these identified areas to determine the best possible location for a full time section. During the Sociedad game, the acoustics engineer also recorded the sound levels from the singing section and monitored the impact on other areas within Old Trafford. These sound testing trails will again be in place during the Fulham game, to monitor the impact of the singing section.
As part of our initial singing section proposal which was submitted to Manchester United in Feb 2012, we stated that the section was needed for the more low key regular Premier league games. This trial against Fulham gives the ideal opportunity to test the effectiveness of a full time singing section in improving the Old Trafford atmosphere, not just within the singing section, but within the whole of Old Trafford.
Fans United hope that this trial will again be an outstanding success and that it can pave the way for a full time Old Trafford singing section in time for the 2014/15 season.
United We Stand editor Andy Mitten has written this superb article explaining the singing section and its background which has today been published in the Manchester Evening News, read it here.
http://bit.ly/JOKsvr
We realise that supporters have several questions with regards to the singing section trial and a Frequently Asked Questions can be found below.
Following the success of the initial singing section trial against Real Sociedad in the Champions League, Manchester United have given permission to us as Fan's United, the go ahead to stage a 2nd trial. Fans United this week met with United officials to discuss the next singing section trial and how to take forward the prospect of a full time section for the start of the 2014/15 season.
For the Fulham Premier League home game on Sunday 9th Feb, the North/East Lower quadrant will be used to house a 2nd singing section trial. The section more affectionately known as J and K stands, will play host to 2,661 vocal United supporters, an increase on the initial 1,431 who took part in the Sociedad game trial. The 2,661 singing section seats will be located within blocks N1401, N2401, N2402 and East 239. Manchester United have been personally telephoning all season ticket holders within those seated areas to explain the circumstances and to facilitate their moves to an alternative seat.
During the study into the most effective areas to house the singing section, Manchester United commissioned an acoustics engineer, who studied the atmosphere, crowd volume and acoustics within Old Trafford. The findings of this study identified that the L-stand quadrant (Current away areas as used for the Sociedad trial) and the J/K stand quadrant were the best suited location to house a singing section. The club committed to trialling a section within both of these identified areas to determine the best possible location for a full time section. During the Sociedad game, the acoustics engineer also recorded the sound levels from the singing section and monitored the impact on other areas within Old Trafford. These sound testing trails will again be in place during the Fulham game, to monitor the impact of the singing section.
As part of our initial singing section proposal which was submitted to Manchester United in Feb 2012, we stated that the section was needed for the more low key regular Premier league games. This trial against Fulham gives the ideal opportunity to test the effectiveness of a full time singing section in improving the Old Trafford atmosphere, not just within the singing section, but within the whole of Old Trafford.
Fans United hope that this trial will again be an outstanding success and that it can pave the way for a full time Old Trafford singing section in time for the 2014/15 season.
United We Stand editor Andy Mitten has written this superb article explaining the singing section and its background which has today been published in the Manchester Evening News, read it here.
http://bit.ly/JOKsvr
We realise that supporters have several questions with regards to the singing section trial and a Frequently Asked Questions can be found below.
Singing Section - Frequently Asked Questions
Q - How many Seats will the Section hold?
A - We have been allocated 2,661 seats an increase of 1,230 over the initial L-stand trial.
Q- Why are J/K stand sections being used for the trial?
A- As identified by the acoustic study, the J/K stand and the L-stand (Current away area) where considered to be the best locations at the East End of Old Trafford for amplifying the atmosphere and noise. We have already given trial to the L-stand section and as such, this trial will take place within the J/K stand lower quadrant. Furthermore, we feel that the location of J/K stand will impact more effectively on other areas of Old Trafford, resulting in an increased atmosphere from North Stand and both East stand upper and lower tiers.
Additionally, the task of moving and relocating the away supporters within Old Trafford is proving difficult. Numerous logistical and safety issues prevent the away supporters to be moved into other areas of the stadium. In the event of a cup game, away supporters are entitled to 9,000 tickets and as such, this would require the current away section to be used. However, we will continue to seek the best possible location for a full time singing section.
Q - I currently sit in J/K stand and am being asked to move for the singing section trial.
A- Manchester United are currently in the process of personally calling every supporter being asked to move to make way for the section for the Fulham game in order to explain the reasoning behind their move. We realise that this isn't ideal and that some supporters have sat in their seat for a long period of time. The club are offering supporters affected the opportunity to be relocated in an equivalent seat or a superior seat at no extra cost. The club will also accommodate request for fans who currently sit together, to be able to relocate together. In sanctioning the singing section, Manchester United gave a commitment to the fans groups that 2 areas would be trialled within Old Trafford to ensure that the best possible and most logistically possible areas could be tested.
We realise that some supporters may be upset at the thought of being moved from their current seats and this is a situation which would effect supporters no matter where the singing section will be located. We hope that supporters can be understanding towards the need of improving the Old Trafford atmosphere and hopefully increasing the matchday experience for all supporters.
Q- Why isn't The Stretford End being used?
A - We realise that the Stretford End is its own unique and historic singing section. We wanted a section at the opposite end to the Stretford End, that could be used to improve the atmosphere within the whole of Old Trafford. This section isn't to take anything away from the Stretford End, its to work with it to create a spread of noise across all sections of the stadium.
Q - Will the section take anything away from the Stretford End?
A - We don't believe that the singing section will effect the Stretford End. For the initial trial. only 195 supporters moved from the whole of the Stretford End into the singing section.
Q - I was part of the initial singing section trial, will I get priority this time?
A - Yes, priority will be given to those supporters who took part in the initial singing section trail. the first trial was a huge success and it gathered together a superb array of vocal supporters. We once again want to target these supporters and create a section that contains the most vocal supporters. Information will shortly be passed to those supporters who initially took part in the first trial and Manchester United will contact them to invite them into this trial around the 30th December.
Q - I didn't take part in the initial singing section trial but want to be part of this one, can I take part?
A - Yes, this section will contain an extra 1,230 seats, which will give an opportunity for extra fans to take part. Applications to move into the singing section for those not involved in the first trial are estimated to be open around the 6th Jan.
Q - I currently sit in J/K stand and I am being asked to move seats in order for the trail to take place, can I move back into to this section?
A - Yes, an opportunity will be given for those supporters currently located within J/K stands to be part of the singing section. For the initial trial 99 people from within these sections of J/K stands moved into the singing section. This section will be a vocal area and we want to capture the vocal fans. We realise that a core element of vocal supporters already exists within parts of J/K stands and we would welcome that support in the section. We would point out that this section will be more vocal and will see more standing than currently takes place within J/K stands and we ask supporters considering moving back into the singing section to give this consideration, as we aim to create a vocal singing section and as such, this may be different than your current matchday experience within your seat.
Q- Can I relocate to the singing section with a group of friends and be sat together?
A - Yes, as per the initial singing section, groups of mates can submit a request to be located together. We consider that the ability to be located with friends can contribute to the overall atmosphere within the section.
Q - What will the price of tickets be within the section?
A - The current season ticket matchday prices for the J/K stand section are £37 and £38. As with the first singing section trial, Supporters moving into the section from a cheaper seat will not be asked to pay anymore. Those moving from a more expensive seat will be issued a refund for the difference in price. Please Note - should the section become full time for the 2014/15 season, matchday/ST prices will be in line with the normal prices for that section.
Q - What was the reaction to the initial singing section trial?
A - The feedback from the initial trial was superb. Manchester United and the authorities were pleased with the way the section worked. One major factor in the sections success was the supporters co-operation with police and stewards, ensuring that whilst persistent standing took place, the gangways and aisles where kept clear and that supporters locate within their allocated seats. We hope that this respect will continue and that fans will once again self police the section to ensure that it is a success.
The management and players of Manchester United all commented on the success and volume of noise raised by the initial singing section trial and we hope that this section will be once again be a vocal success and be louder than the initial trial, inspiring the players on the pitch.
Q- What happens if this trial is a success?
We will evaluate the success of the section along with the club and use the feedback and experience of the two trials to establish a full time section for the start of the 2014/15 season.
Q - Has the possibility of Safe Standing been explored?
A - Both, the Fans United groups that we represent with MUST & IMUSA support the call for safe standing areas within football grounds and would welcome the opportunity for these areas within Old Trafford. Currently the laws and regulations prevent safe standing from being implemented and as such, this has not formed any part of the current singing section discussion and trial. However, we will continue to liaise with supporters groups and explore the opportunity for safe standing areas within Old Trafford as a longer term aim.
Great update good luck with trial 2. I hope the full time singing section will be 5 or 6k rather than 2 though.
Should be a good atmosphere, also the closest game to the Munich anniversary.
Where is that article from?
There is no harm in looking at options and as stated, the club were keen to look at both areas. The J/K Stand is an easier option, but we'll see how it goes. The only say it can be a success is for those of us involved to do our bit, so make it loud.
There is no harm in looking at options and as stated, the club were keen to look at both areas. The J/K Stand is an easier option, but we'll see how it goes. The only say it can be a success is for those of us involved to do our bit, so make it loud.
Certainly something that is on the agenda.
Not as easy as that. The J/K Stand is certainly an easier option to a certain extent but again, we'll see how it goes.
Tuffty taking a bit abuse on twitter tonight, a lot of J and K stand supporters don't want to move.
stretford end flags (independant supporters group) who are part of the clubs forum with the fans
http://www.stretfordendflags.com/index.php/96-singing-section-2nd-trial-gets-league-game-go-ahead
Will they stand up and sing then? You can sympathise with them, but in fairness people are trying to do something good and they shouldn't stand in their way.
I think J stand are a vocal bunch so yeah they will stand up and sing but they need to free up over 2000 seats, if J stand aren't willing to move then this singing section ain't happening. TBH I can sympathise with them, some of those supporters have been sat there for years so it's difficult to just get up and move to another seat.
If you're on about the main SEF twitter, that isn't him.
Both of them are getting it.
It was always going to happen, and it is what it is. As I've said previously, the club were set on looking at both locations. Obviously I can see why those who think that way, think that way, but the concept will improve the atmosphere and it's the easier of the two options.
Difficult one really, and I can see both sides to be honest. I'm just glad I don't have to face any of that.
Difficult one really, and I can see both sides to be honest. I'm just glad I don't have to face any of that.
Is there not a part of the ground that is soley used for general sale?
Would love the singing section to become a permanent thing at Old Trafford, no matter where in the stadium it may be.
Did the lads who have put this together deliberately do this to J and K stand? If so, incredibly naive.
If the club did, however, rather clever way to get rid of a potential nuisance. They clearly weren't receptive to the idea in the first place.
If the club did, however, rather clever way to get rid of a potential nuisance. They clearly weren't receptive to the idea in the first place.
Yeah but if they move ST's to those seats where do they put the general sale tickets that they are moving? Back where the original ST's were?
I was thinking they could move the away fans to a part of the ground that is used for general sale and then turn the away section into the singing section. It would free up seats all over the place but these can then be sold under general sale.
The first singing section was absolutely brilliant. One lad summed it up well after the game when he met he mate and went: "How good was that then? Like being at an away!" and that's exactly what it was. Sadly you've got too many fans who absolutely hate Tufty and by extension SEF. Then you've got those fans being told to move and that's what sticks in their throat - that they're being told to move rather than asked. Unfortunately this is about as easy as it gets for a singing section.
What's worth remembering is that if those in J and K made noise in the first place we wouldn't need this. They'll say that the atmosphere there's alright. Whilst that's debatable, who wants an 'alright' atmosphere? Personally I think it's terrible there and there needs to be a singing section. But I'm not a season ticket holder. I'm not even a regular.
What's worth remembering is that if those in J and K made noise in the first place we wouldn't need this. They'll say that the atmosphere there's alright. Whilst that's debatable, who wants an 'alright' atmosphere? Personally I think it's terrible there and there needs to be a singing section. But I'm not a season ticket holder. I'm not even a regular.
I was in E236 for a year and it was poor unless we were playing a big team but lower was always bouncing. The block towards the end (E239) which is being turned into the signing section looked lively. TBH East upper would be great as a singing section as it's next to the away section but a lot of older ST holders sit there so could face similar issues but I don't think they could use the 'we always sing' excuse.
They don't have to move though do they? If they want to stand up and sing they just apply for the section and stay in their seats, if they don't, then they can go somewhere else for no extra cost and continue sitting in silence. It's not ideal, L with a bigger allocation would've been preferable for me, but it's clearly for the greater good.
It's worth bearing in mind too that the liveliest part of J/K is the lower tier - E136 to E138, and this isn't part of the singing section. So the effect of using J and the upper tier of K should be that there is efectively a much bigger singing section than the official one... I expect it to work very well.
I do still worry though that it only takes one or two miserable bastard complaining about people standing up to put the whole thing in jeopardy. The whole thing is already sailing close to the wind when the official Fans United statementm which is effectively endorsed by the club, says the section "will see more standing than currently takes place". This is the same club that only last week wrote teh following in an email:
I do still worry though that it only takes one or two miserable bastard complaining about people standing up to put the whole thing in jeopardy. The whole thing is already sailing close to the wind when the official Fans United statementm which is effectively endorsed by the club, says the section "will see more standing than currently takes place". This is the same club that only last week wrote teh following in an email:
Clause 4 states that "nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress". These are in line with ground regulations issued by the Premier League and the Football League and form an essential part of our safety at the stadium. Further, in clause 13 the Club reserves the right to suspend the use of a ticket if the match day terms and conditions are breached. By persistently standing during the game you were in breach of the terms and conditions of your ticket.
I was just thinking the same thing earlier. I can really see it happening too. 
Standing won't be an issue in the SS, if your in there you know what to expect. The stewards won't bother you as long as you don't block the aisle which I think is fair.
I don't know anyone who sits in the effected area so I am going off what was reported in MEN. They're all saying that they're being forced to move. The problem United face at the moment is ST holder in J stand and E239 applying for their own seat, if that happens they will need to find another area or force people out of their seats.
Having to re-apply is dumb. As long as they explicitly acknowledge that they will be part of the singing section, with all that entails, ST holders should have the option to just keep their existing seat for the trial.
That doesn't address the issue of what happens when one grumpy git complains to a steward that he can't see because the guy in front is standing, though does it? Either the steward has to tell people to sit down, or he ignores the complaint and the old git escalates things himself.
I think they'd take option A there, given the position they take in other circumstances.
I agree that having to re-apply is daft, however, Messrs Appalled and Disgusted might want to get some perspective. It's one fecking game. We need things to go smoothly to have the chance of a permanent section for next season. The idea that the last one "wasn't that great a success" shows that these people aren't thinking remotely objectively anyway.
One game, but don't those in the singing section keep their seats for the next trial?
By the way, the reason I said I would prefer L is mainly to avoid bother like this, not because of acoustic reasons. Yes, the sound carries exceptionally well from L – but I’m optimistic about J. You’re more likely to get East and North involved from J than you are to get East and North involved from L.
For this one, yes. About 50% of the total allocation will be offered as first option to those who opted in last time. There's still 1230 seats to apply for. Don't know about future trials, but you would hope they would expand it again significantly if there were any.
Whilst I understand the issues that the current K stand holders have, they have to see the bigger picture in that the club are actively trying to improve the atmosphere. It's something we all want.
The club are between a rock and a hard place. Just giving the existing seat holders the opportunity to stay in their seat and be part of the singing section will probably result in them all taking that option and thus there's no change. Half of them obviously don't sing as there was a big improvement last time the SS was implemented.
The club are between a rock and a hard place. Just giving the existing seat holders the opportunity to stay in their seat and be part of the singing section will probably result in them all taking that option and thus there's no change. Half of them obviously don't sing as there was a big improvement last time the SS was implemented.
It's pretty clear what they're doing now. No one has been forced out of their seat, ST holders have been allocated another seat with the option of applying for the original seat. I can assume that they have got first refusal. If any of them decide not to take part in the SS the spare seats will become available to those who took part in the first trial. Personally I think the club are going to struggle to free up seats.