WC All-time All-Stars QF4: Anto vs Theon

Who is more likely to win based on prime WC form


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Polaroid

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The aim of this poll is to decide who will come up victorious in a hypothetical match between the two teams. ONLY THE PRIME WORLD CUP FORM OF THE PLAYERS IN QUESTION IS CONSIDERED. CLUB FORM IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.


Interesting, I know, which is why you should read below because it is all about tactics.

Theon has a cracking assortment of players, no doubt. If I gave them the entire pitch to play in, I would be in a spot of bother. His problem though is the lack of pace upfront, there’s no Eusebio, Ronaldo, Romario, or any pacey winger for me to worry about, so I can deploy the Magnificent Magyar’s tactics*, with the right personnel for them, and push up and into his half. If he recovers possession I don’t have to worry about pace on the break and thus the long ball over the top which was the Achilles heel of that side. Figueroa, Junior, Andrade and Chilavert as sweeper-keeper can handle that.


Conversely, in Romario I have arguably the best ever at running off the shoulder of the last defender, which calls for Theon to defend deep (which he has to anyway as Da Guia ‘38 would be terribly confused by the modern offside trap), leaving space between the lines for me to let my play unfold when I recover possession. The explosive power in Romario, Czibor and Ghiggia, means I stretch him along and across the pitch, something which he is ill-suited to do.

The total sum of that is I can play my game and he can’t get into a rhythm. It also means I can put him through periods of sustained pressure, but also hit him on the break. Basically, whichever way the game unfolds, I have the means to hurt him, while his setup is one where you would hope to score first and nick a 1-0 win.

How the game will unfold:

As he gets onto the pitch, Roberto Carlos sees Puskas and repeats the infamous words: "Look at that little fat chap. We'll murder this lot". Beckenbauer is a wee bit more concerned as he looks around and his maths doesn’t add up: “Where’s Cannavaro?”, he asks himself as the whistle blows for kick off.

Total confusion ensues as the Magyars + Neeskens + the proven Dream Team combo of Romario and Laudrup unleash total football on Theon’s team. They really hadn’t prepared for this at all.

Within 10 minutes, Puskas has scored and in the remainder of the first half they engage in desperate damage limitation at the Underdogs’ swarming approach. They still concede to a beautiful chip by Laudrup finding “O Baixinho” inside the box. 2-0.

At half-time, the disgruntled players go back to their managers for direction. “What the flying feck was that?”, says one of them. Theon and Snow apply themselves to how to turn it around, how to get at that three man defence better, shame Piola has flown back home after being told by his manager that he couldn’t hack it at this level...

With renewed confidence, they come back to the pitch for the second half, only to find this in front of them:


They toil away trying to get back in the game, but for every chance they get there’s an equally good chance the Underdogs get on the break. They finally claw one back, but only five minutes later Ghiggia is again scampering down the wing unchallenged, Kohler doesn’t get there in time to avoid the cross, and Romario scores with a deft touch, Brazil-Netherlands ’94 style.

3-1, game over. There may be time for a second, but that’s all they will get.

*Magnificent Magyar tactics explained

The W-W(1953)

Hungary's problem in the 1950s was the centre-forward. Along with the W-M came the brawny centre-forward, which is what the Hungarian team did not have in 1953. Gustav Sebes, the 1953 coach of the Hungarian national team, changed the W-M to a W-W in the following manner:

He pulled the centre-forward back to play as a playmaker, taking over the role of the two inside-forwards (Laudrup instead of Hidegkuti). They were instead pushed up to give Hungary a two-pronged strikeforce (Puskas and Romario instead of Kocsis). The wingers were pulled back to give a 5-man midfield (Czibor and Ghiggia instead of Budai, both tracking and pressing).

Hungary's national team also attacked as a unit, with the backline moving into the opposing half. This adventurous play was open to counterattacks, via a long ball over the desperately out-of-place defence and speedy forwards (absent in the opposition). But the likelihood of this was lessened by the even more adventurous play of goalkeeper Gyula Grosics, who often came out of the 18-yard box to clear loose balls (Chilavert).

Advice on the W-W: If the W-W is to be used successfully, you need two centre-forwards, one playmaker, and two very good runners who can play up and down the wing. This is for the forward line.(Check) For the defensive W you need to have five alert players who can run well, have plenty of stamina and pass well (Junior and Andrade fit the bill alongside Figueroa, Neeskens and their original DLP in Bozsik).



More on the Aranycsapat (“Golden Team”)

The Hungarian football team of the 1950’s redefined the sport of soccer, revolutionising the way the game was approached and breaking records by the bucket load. Between June 1950 and the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 the Magnificent Magyars compiled a competitive record of forty-two wins, seven draws and only one defeat. The tragedy is that the defeat came in the final of the 1954 World Cup.

Rarely has a single national side been blessed with as many truly world class players inhabiting a single era. Yet Hungary during the 1950’s could call upon the services of a plethora of international stars. The incomparable Ferenc Puskas, arguably the greatest goalscorer in the history of the modern game, with 84 goals in 85 games, captained the team.

His strike partner was the equally predatory Sandor Kocsis, a forward whose 75 international goals were plundered in only 68 matches. Completing the triumvirate of attacking geniuses was the deep-lying centre forward Nandor Hidegkuti (39 goals in 69 games), the last man to score a hat trick against England at Wembley, way back in 1953.

Aside from the strikers Hungary could call on the services of two other genuinely world class talents. Jozef Bozsik in central midfield was the schemer and playmaker, the man who loaded the bullets for the strike force to fire. On the wing the mobile and visionary Zoltan Czibor epitomised the speedy and skilful wide player. Quite simply no other team in the international arena could match the Hungarian juggernaut over an unbeaten run.
All my players made the FIFA All-Star Team in at least one World Cup, you can read more on them here:

PLAYER PROFILES
 
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Theon

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TEAM THEON


FORMATION – 3-5-2

World Cup Inspiration – Italy 1982, Argentina 1986, Germany 1990, Brazil 2002- All four won the World Cup playing some variant of this formation.

Proven 3-5-2 defensive success – Scirea replicates his libero role from 1982, Kohler his stopper role in a back three from 1990 and Roberto Carlos will bomb up the flank as he did in 2002.

DEFENCE

An impeccable array of talent at the back with unmatched World Cup pedigree – the defence comprises two of football’s greatest centre backs with the masterful Italian Gaetano Scirea, whilst attacking wingbacks provide the width to open up the pitch.

1) Kohler vs Romario – An unmatched man marker with clear similarities to Scirea’s 1982 partner Gentile, Jurgen Kohler will man handle Romario thoughout the game and ensure the Brazilian does not have a second on the ball.

On the odd occasion Romario can escape the marking of Kohler Scirea will sweep up any danger.

2) The perfect Libero – For a back three to work it is vital that the sweeper possesses expert positioning and reading of the game to cover any danger that gets through the initial defenders, whilst also being an excellent ball player in possession.

In Scirea we have the perfect foil to cover Kohler and Da Guia defensively, as well as the wonderful ability to play out from the back. The team will look to dominate possession against Antohan’s side, and this begins in defence with Scirea.

MIDFIELD

Beckenbauer/ Falcão/Zico.. An absolutely perfect unit.

Two complete footballers, Falcão and Beckenbauer combine defensive solidity with exquisite technique and ability on the ball. They will dominate the game from deep whilst Zico roams across the midfield terrorising Antohan’s midfield with his dribbling and wonderful passing, all the time threatening to break forward and score himself – a constant threat given his exceptional 48 in 71 record for Brazil.

1) Box to Box Kaiser – In both 1966 and 1970 Beckenbauer played central midfield, scoring 5 goals and utilising his fantastic range of passing, as well as his typical dominating defensive displayes – particularly in 1970.

Capable of exquisite skill and possessing the engine to get up and down all game, Beckenbauer solidifies the midfield defensively whilst offering a huge threat in both transition and attack.


2) Falcão/Zico Brazilian Magic - In the history of the World Cup there have been few midfields as good as 1982 Brazil, with Zico and Falcão the undisputed stars.

Zico – Despite Brazil getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals, Zico contributed the most goals in the entire tournament with 4 goals and 4 assists.

Falcão – The best player in one of the best ever World Cups, completely dominated games from midfield, he scored 3 and assisted 1 in just 5 games. Falcão was awarded the Silver Ball as the second best footballer in the tournament – despite Brazil getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals.

I don’t think we will ever see that again, but its testament to how good Falcão was.


ATTACK

An exceptionally talented and complimentary partnership – Baggio with a free role will drop deep, peel out the left and interchange with the oncoming Zico, whilst Muller will spearhead the attack and terrorize Cannavaro with his movement, acceleration and ruthless finishing.

1) Der Bomber – 617 goals in 638 games and a staggering 68 goals in 62 games for Germany, there is not a better goalscorer in the entire draft than Gerd Müller

His World Cup pedigree is unrivalled, scoring the winning goal to defeat Cruyff’s Holland in the 1974 World Cup Final, as well as scoring an incredible 10 goals in the 1970 World Cup – an exceptional record that has not been matched in over 50 years.

2) Il Divino - Rarely can you say that a player’s tournament truly deserved to finish with them lifting the World Cup, but that is precisely what happened in 1994 with Roberto Baggio.

An outstanding tournament in which Baggio dragged Italy to the final was denied the fairytale ending when he missed his penalty in the shoot-out against Brazil. The great scandal is the damage this has done to Baggio’s legacy in the eyes of many, in which a month of footballing brilliance was wiped out with one kick.

An iconic World Cup moment

 
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Theon

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Not too sure what to make of this.. One centre back against a central attack of Zico, Baggio and Muller - two strikers and an attacking midfielder, but only Figueroa there to try and stop them.

Gerd Muller's record has already been mentioned - 68 goals in 62 games for Germany and 10 goals in one World Cup, something which hasn't been matched in over 50 years.

Zico - 48 goals in 71 games for Brazil and in the 1982 World Cup he contributed the most goals/assists in the tournament despite Brazil being knocked out in the Quarter's

Baggio - The star of 1994 in which he almost single handedly led Italy to winning the World Cup with 5 goals

Figueroa is a top defender - no question - but this is a far too big a task for one centre back. Beckenbauer will win the ball in midfield, skip a challenge before playing it to Zico, who simply runs at Figueroa causing absolute carnage, as Baggio and Muller offer passing options either side.

I think antohan has gone far too attacking here, its not a very balanced team.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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First impression in favour of Theon.

Anto seems to have over engineered this a bit. What if they don't score in first half? Or drop behind to a freak goal? Would tactics change again?

Difficult to rate against 2 different set ups.
 

Theon

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First impression in favour of Theon.

Anto seems to have over engineered this a bit. What if they don't score in first half? Or drop behind to a freak goal? Would tactics change again?

Difficult to rate against 2 different set ups.
It wouldn't be a freak goal though, that team is there for the taking and against the calibre of attackers on show it will be punished.
 

antohan

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Well, ain't that a peach? This was meant to be Theon vs. Anto but the order is reversed, my teamsheets are tiny (@Polaroid, can you please remove the quote tags?), allthe formatting is gone so nothing is specifically bolded, Theon can freely edit his stuff as he goes along and I can't, and now we are posting clips despite agreeing not to clog the first page with them.

Awesome.
 
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antohan

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Not too sure what to make of this.. One centre back against a central attack of Zico, Baggio and Muller - two strikers and an attacking midfielder, but only Figueroa there to try and stop them.

I think antohan has gone far too attacking here, its not a very balanced team.
If you assume my 5-man midfield are all scratching their balls I suppose you would be right. It's a convenient asumption seeing as everything laid out in the tactics indicates everyone chips in, the players are either the same who originally did it or ones who played in a similar setting and would relish this. But no, yeah, it's a 3v1 through the middle, logically.

Ferenc Puskas said:
When we attacked, everyone attacked, and in defence it was the same. We were the prototype for Total Football
 
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Theon

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If you assume my 5-man midfield are all scratching their balls I suppose you would be right. It's a convenient asumption seeing as everything laid out in the tactics indicates everyone chips in, the players are either the same who originally did it or ones who played in a similar setting and would relish this. But no, yeah, it's a 3v1 through the middle, logically.
Calm down.

You have one centre back, so I'm not sure what you're on about. When we are in transition it will end up with Muller and Baggio facing a solitary Figueroa, with Zico breaking forward to join in.

Neeskens, Boszik, Ghiggia.. None of these players are defenders so I don't understand how you expect them to be dealing with Baggio or Muller - they won't be anywhere near them. You just have one centre back, we can pretend that won't cause problems defensively but it quite obviously will.
 

antohan

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First impression in favour of Theon.

Anto seems to have over engineered this a bit. What if they don't score in first half? Or drop behind to a freak goal? Would tactics change again?

Difficult to rate against 2 different set ups.
Theon himself is saying he has 3 v 1 through the middle, they clearly haven't prepared for this and will be finding out how it works as they go along. My men have drilled this formation and/or its requirements all week (most throughout their career). His men will assume there are certain easy paths only to find someone has that covered. In the meantime, I'm in full flow. The surprise element is a massive advantage. I should be getting a lead and, when the right time comes, off comes Laudrup and on comes Cannavaro to soak and hit on the break to see the game out.

If I drop behind to a freak goal I keep at it. What you are ignoring here is I can keep doing this or sit back and play on the counter, and I can do both effectively. Theon has only one way of playing, has no pace upfront to worry me and all I have to do is press him into his half and give him no time or space to operate in.
 

antohan

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Calm down.

You have one centre back, so I'm not sure what you're on about. When we are in transition it will end up with Muller and Baggio facing a solitary Figueroa, with Zico breaking forward to join in.

Neeskens, Boszik, Ghiggia.. None of these players are defenders so I don't understand how you expect them to be dealing with Baggio or Muller - they won't be anywhere near them. You just have one centre back, we can pretend that won't cause problems defensively but it quite obviously will.
You have no wingers. I have three defenders, facing two strikers. It's not hard Theon.

Czibor tracks back, Ghiggia will too but only up to midfield, where he will revert to pressing a midfielder while hoping for a turnover ball and free go at the unguarded flank (that's what he did, no point painting him as some sort of Valencia/Boniek). I'm aware it would be handy if he were more like Czibor given that would work better doing it the exact other way around, but that's what they did effectively. If Roberto Carlos moves beyond midfield then his for Andrade to deal with... still with two defenders available.

Neeskens and Bozsik are superb complete midfielders, I don't want or need them to be defenders to contribute to a defensive effort. That's exactly what I meant earlier about playing dumb about how football really works. Apparently Zico is not taken care of because them two aren't defenders, what a completely ridiculous thing to say.
 

Theon

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Where has this no pace nonsense coming from? It's not even as if the isolated Figueroa was lightening anyway, but Muller was absolutely electric over 20 yards and Zico can dribble with speed as well anyone on the pitch.

Baggio himself was deceptively quick, particularly when running with the ball... Yet Figueroa can supposedly stop all of this by himself. Nonsense.

 

antohan

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The main point though is, all that stuff only comes into play once you recover the ball, in a heavily congested half of yours, with your forwards miles away from goal due to the high defensive line and lacking the pace to exploit it. Those players you listed won't be seeing much of the ball at all, that's the entire point of the W-W, unless you have pacey strikers to play the ball over the top to you are choked.

IF you did (which you don't) then sure, there are risks involved in playing one more attacker and one less defender, the Magyars though made the reward well worth the risk. They just outscored the shit out of everyone in sight.
  • World Record: (June 4, 1950 to Feb 19 1956) 42 victories, 7 draws, 1 defeat ("Miracle of Berne") – 91.0% winning percentage ratio.
    • Team Record (June 4, 1950 to July 3, 1954) 31 game undefeated narrative.
  • World Record: strongest power rating ever attained in the sport's history using the Elo rating system for national teams, 2166 points (set June 30, 1954).
  • World Record: most consecutive games scoring at least one goal: 73 games (April 10, 1949 to June 16, 1957).
  • World Record: longest time undefeated in 20th and 21st centuries: 4 years 1 month (June 4, 1950 to July 4, 1954).
  • World Record: most collaborative goals scored between two starting players (Ferenc Puskás & Sándor Kocsis) on same national side (159 goals).
  • 20th Century Record: Hungary manager Gusztáv Sebes holds the highest ratio of victories per game past 30 matches with 82.58% (49 wins, 11, draws, 6 defeats). Brazil legend Vicente Feola (1955–1966) owns the second highest with 81.25 (46 wins, 12 draws, 6 defeats).
  • 20th Century Record: Most International Goals: Ferenc Puskás (84 goals).
  • World Cup Record: 27 goals scored in a single World Cup finals tournament.
  • World Cup Record: 5.4 goals-per-match in a single World Cup finals tournament.
  • World Cup Record: +17 goal differential in a single World Cup finals tournament.
  • World Cup Record: 2.2 goals-per-match average for individual goal scoring in a single World Cup finals tournament (Sándor Kocsis 11 goals in 5 games).
  • World Cup Record: highest margin of victory ever recorded in a World Cup finals tournament match ( Hungary 9, South Korea 0 – July 17, 1954).
  • World Cup Precedent: first national team to defeat two-time and reigning World Cup champion Uruguay in a World Cup finals tournament (Hungary 4, Uruguay 2, semi-final — July 30, 1954).
  • World Cup Precedent: Sándor Kocsis, first player to score two hat tricks in a World Cup finals tournament (Hungary 8, West Germany 3 – July 20, 1954 & Hungary 9, South Korea 0 – July 17, 1954).
  • National Record: Highest margin of victory recorded by Hungarian national team (Hungary 12, Albania 0 – Sept. 23 1950).
  • Precedent: first national side from outside the British Isles to defeat England at home since the codification of association football in 1863, a span of 90 years (Hungary 6, England 3, see "Match of the Century" – Nov. 25 1953).
    • Hungary's 7–1 defeat of England in Budapest the next year is still England's record defeat.
  • Precedent: first national side in the world to eclipse an 1888 Scottish record of being undefeated in 22 consecutive matches (32 games).
Precedent: first non-South American national side to defeat Uruguay (Hungary 4, Uruguay 2, semi-final — July 30, 1954), breaking a 17 game Uruguayan unbeaten run against non-South American competition dating from May 26, 1924.

  • Precedent: first national side to defeat the Soviet Union at home (Hungary 1, Soviet Union 0 – Sept. 23 1956).
  • Precedent: first national team in history to simultaneously host the No.1 and No. 2 world record holders for most goals scored internationally (Ferenc Puskás 84 goals, Sándor Kocsis 75 goals) from May 11, 1955 to October 14, 1956.
  • Team Record vs. Elo Ranked Opponents: (June 4, 1950 – Oct. 14 1956), vs. world Top 10 ranked opponents: 11 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss / vs. world Top 5 opponents: 4 wins, 0 draw, 1 loss.
 
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antohan

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Where has this no pace nonsense coming from? It's not even as if the isolated Figueroa was lightening anyway, but Muller was absolutely electric over 20 yards and Zico can dribble with speed as well anyone on the pitch.

Baggio himself was deceptively quick, particularly when running with the ball... Yet Figueroa can supposedly stop all of this by himself. Nonsense.
You persist in the ridiculous notion that Figueroa is defending alone. You are not this thick Theon so I'm not going to bother answer more than this as the wife is nagging, and rightly so. Shame we had no time earlier to clear up all this stuff, eh? Why did that happen again?

You are talking about dribbling and running with the ball. A big part of this all is they won't get it to begin with. None of these chaps have the pace or disposition (in some cases) to spend all game sprinting from midfield chasing a long ball. They won't get there before one of Chilavert, Figueroa, Junior or Andrade anyway. Aerially they are also undermined. You haven't even prepared to play the game that way for starters!

Basically, you can't hit me on the break. You can try start building up something in a more elaborate way, sure, but that means I can regroup and track back as you do it, so the emphasis on attacking doesn't really undermine me as much as you would obviously claim.
 

antohan

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Just a final thought. You do realise these formations faced FIVE man frontlines, like mine. Here we have two strikers and an AM with no wingers to be seen yet it is meant to be imbalanced. Three defenders + 5-man midfield, yet the problem is there aren't two dedicated CBs. Nonsense.
 

Snow

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Just a final thought. You do realise these formations faced FIVE man frontlines, like mine. Here we have two strikers and an AM with no wingers to be seen yet it is meant to be imbalanced. Three defenders + 5-man midfield, yet the problem is there aren't two dedicated CBs. Nonsense.
And these formations showed goal differences that we haven't seen again. The likes of 6-1 wins in a semi-final. You won't keep a clean sheet with this formation. Our formation made clean sheets famous in football.

You've got a three man defense with two of them being wing backs. What would people think if they saw this kind of lineup today? Your main argument so far seems to be that we wouldn't get our ball out of our own half to be able to score which is frankly quite ridiculous.

This is not a back three that will keep a good shape. Getting the ball behind the defense or between Figueroa and either Junior or Andrade is quite easy. Especially with Müller there. Hell, he's about as good as it gets in a game like this.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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What you are ignoring here is I can keep doing this or sit back and play on the counter, and I can do both effectively.
Not sure how you can afford to sit back and play on the counter with that set up. Neeskens/Boszik/Laudrup are very good, but personally I think Beckenbauer/Falcao/Zico are better. In addition, Theon's midfield will get much better support in the middle from Carlos/Nadrade than yours can from Ghiggia/Czibor. With that forward line, preventing you from scoring will be impossible, but I think you will be vulnerable on the counter.

Again not convinced on the pace. Baggio is quick and Zico can in now way be termed slow. Muller cannot do long pacey runs, but his short distance acceleration is exceptional, exactly what is required from him here.

@Theon, not sure on Kohler marking Romario would would have any value, with all the other attacking threats anto has. Better to drop the man marking and defend as a unit, imo!
 

antohan

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And these formations showed goal differences that we haven't seen again. The likes of 6-1 wins in a semi-final. You won't keep a clean sheet with this formation. Our formation made clean sheets famous in football.
I gave you credit for one, maybe even two goals. I'll score more though. Simple.

You've got a three man defense with two of them being wing backs.
Neither was a wingback. One was a leftback in a back four who acted as a playmaker from deep, the other was a defensive half who was relied upon to track runs, cover and beef up the defence. Andrade is more suited to it clearly, but seeing as there's no wide threat on Junior's flank (nothing Czibor can't cover anyway) he is free to support Figueroa.

What would people think if they saw this kind of lineup today? Your main argument so far seems to be that we wouldn't get our ball out of our own half to be able to score which is frankly quite ridiculous.
You would be playing in very tight spaces, pressed, and miles away from goal with no one who can exploit that space behind the high line. You don't really have two strikers because there's no point in Baggio faffing around "upfront" waiting for a ball to arrive, he will stay deep and try build up with Zico, with Bozsik and Neeskens onto them.

This is not a back three that will keep a good shape.
Based on your assessment of two of them as wingbacks?

Getting the ball behind the defense or between Figueroa and either Junior or Andrade is quite easy.
Getting one of your players to actually pick it up at the other end is harder though, which is ultimately what matters.

Especially with Müller there. Hell, he's about as good as it gets in a game like this.

More on that performance here
 
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antohan

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Not sure how you can afford to sit back and play on the counter with that set up.
I was referring to how with one simple sub (Cannavaro on for Laudrup) I can switch to soaking and hitting him on the break. Of course, I wouldn't do it until I have established an advantage.

Neeskens/Boszik/Laudrup are very good, but personally I think Beckenbauer/Falcao/Zico are better.
This is where we go into like-for-like comparisons that don't stack up. Bozsik and Puskas had a telepathic understanding, they played together since they were kids. Czibor also played with them two for a decade or so. Laudrup's understanding with Romario was one of a kind. Of course, it wasn't in a World Cup, but put Laudrup 98 behind Romario 94 and you know for a fact it works brilliantly. Neeskens is perfect for a total football setup.

Instead you have three there who played the game at a different pace, the two Brazilians have no established understanding with the two forwards and Beckenbauer is badly missing Seeler leading the line and playing the one-twos with him.

In addition, Theon's midfield will get much better support in the middle from Carlos/Nadrade than yours can from Ghiggia/Czibor. With that forward line, preventing you from scoring will be impossible, but I think you will be vulnerable on the counter.
The entire point is it is impossible to stop me scoring, it will take them a fair amoutn of time to even work out what is happening, and by then I have shut up shop at the back by bringing on Cannavaro. It's a gameplan, no more no less.

As laid out in the third-party write-ups on the Magyars (does anyone bother read them?) the main vulnerability is indeed the counter. The point though is that Theon and Snow do not have the right personnel to exploit that effectively. Romario, Ghiggia, Czibor, on the other hand, that's some counter!

Again not convinced on the pace. Baggio is quick and Zico can in now way be termed slow. Muller cannot do long pacey runs, but his short distance acceleration is exceptional, exactly what is required from him here.
Short distance acceleration doesn't do it here. I'm not saying they are turtles either. All I'm saying is there's no remarkable counter-attacking player like Eusebio, Ronaldo or Romario (or a winger like Boniek). Any four of those would see me getting into deep shit, absolutely. When Theon recovers the ball, those three are effectively on the halfway line. Junior and Andrade will get there first in wider spaces. Figueroa will cut off a huge amount aerially or intercept it and whatever is too long for him to be dealing with Chilavert is getting to first. That's exactly what he did best, come to the edge of the box and act as a sweeper-keeper, just like Grosics in 54.

@Theon, not sure on Kohler marking Romario would would have any value, with all the other attacking threats anto has. Better to drop the man marking and defend as a unit, imo!
It's funny because if he is man-marking Romario who is covering Carlos when caught upfield or when beaten by Ghiggia? There's a tendency to match men on man-marking duties in these drafts when, in practice, effective defences work as units, indeed.
 

antohan

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Can't see Theon's defense conceding here.
Let me guess, because Scirea is there. So predictable from you :lol:

I have four players who scored in a World Cup final. FOUR. And that doesn't include Romario (just like it doesn't include Baggio, although Romario did score from the spot). And it's not just Romario, but Romario with Laudrup threading and chipping balls for him. We know how that pans out.

Theon has one, and Figueroa kept him in his pocket when they faced each other.
 

antohan

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Anyhow, thought it was necessary to deal with this "one defender" nonsense. Off to bed, have to get up early tomorrow to go fishing.

Will catch up at some point in the afternoon.
 

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Let me guess, because Scirea is there. So predictable from you :lol:

I have four players who scored in a World Cup final. FOUR. And that doesn't include Romario (just like it doesn't include Baggio, although Romario did score from the spot). And it's not just Romario, but Romario with Laudrup threading and chipping balls for him. We know how that pans out.

Theon has one, and Figueroa kept him in his pocket when they faced each other.
Not just Scirea. Scirea, Kohler and Domingos with Beckenbauer shielding. That unit can defend Normandy.
 

antohan

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Scirea has been in charge of better well-drilled defences, against much poorer attacks, and conceded one or two goals anyway.

Take the case where I'm in possesion:
  • Bozsik and Junior are both providing an excellent fallback and redistribution ala Scholes
  • Neeskens and Laudrup are the next "bank", providing movement and final balls
  • I have two wingers who are right up there with the very best the World Cup has seen
  • I have an unplayable CF and a striker who is absolutely phenomenal making something out of nothing inside a square foot
  • Three of them played most of their careers together, and two others had their career peaks playing with a chemistry you see once in a decade, if that
  • Again, FOUR of them scored in a World Cup Final
There's no way they can be stopped.
 

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Scirea has been in charge of better well-drilled defences, against much poorer attacks, and conceded one or two goals anyway.

Take the case where I'm in possesion:
  • Bozsik and Junior are both providing an excellent fallback and redistribution ala Scholes
  • Neeskens and Laudrup are the next "bank", providing movement and final balls
  • I have two wingers who are right up there with the very best the World Cup has seen
  • I have an unplayable CF and a striker who is absolutely phenomenal making something out of nothing inside a square foot
  • Three of them played most of their careers together, and two others had their career peaks playing with a chemistry you see once in a decade, if that
  • Again, FOUR of them scored in a World Cup Final
There's no way they can be stopped.
Laudrup is an issue for me, he had a good World Cup but against someone like Beckenbauer I can't see him making any impact. Puskas and Romario are covered very well. Ghiggia might have some joy but then again I can see Kohler not letting any crosses reach the forwards.

Anyway I think Theon's midfield 3 will dominate the proceedings with the assurance they are getting from the back. I am a big fan of pragmatism and usually have that in my teams so I appreciate Theon for adding the required balance. Your gameplan is more based on a risk-reward model and like I brought it up in Balu's game I don't think that is wise to do that in a game as big as this. I see Theon's team a lot more realistic to win a game such as this. He's got the ideal players to compliment a solid defense and I don't agree that he cannot hit you on the counter with players like Zico, Carlos and Muller. Specially Carlos who would be a massive threat. However I don't he has to play on counter anyway as his defense should return the ball to his midfield a lot and with that quality they can dominate the game.
 

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Theon's team is better individually and better organized. Anto has over-engineered this. A few Magyars do not the entire team make.
 

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Laudrup is an issue for me, he had a good World Cup but against someone like Beckenbauer I can't see him making any impact.
Much as it pains me, this is one of the most formidable individual performances I've witnessed. The Mexicans were chanting Ole Ole within 15 minutes or so and the clock seemed to run on glacial time, nightmare.

For those not bothered with long clips, these two excerpts from Laudrup vs. Nigeria in 1998 (another phenomenal, more mature and controlling, performance) are exactly what he will be delivering for Romario:

 

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Theon's team is better individually and better organized. Anto has over-engineered this. A few Magyars do not the entire team make.
Nah, just the heart of the team, with suitable alternatives in the key roles and improvements in the lower profile ones (RW, back three, other CM).

"Over-engineered" seems a catchy term. Don't get how you can "overengineer" getting a proven side and replicating it.
 

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I remember you yourself writing a big post on how that Uruguay team was missing a couple of key players, right?
Don't think so. I did think the cnuting manager should have played OTHER players, but that was his side and it was the reigning South American champion side, which would win again the next year. For 90 minutes though, they were no better than your average pub side.
 

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Don't think so. I did think the cnuting manager should have played OTHER players, but that was his side and it was the reigning South American champion side, which would win again the next year. For 90 minutes though, they were no better than your average pub side.
Oh okay, I remember you talking about that very game a lot in the 50's Draft, I think.

Anyway as I said, it is not Laudrup individually that is an issue for me, he had a very good WC and combined well with Elkjaer but it is Beckenbauer who is against him which is where I think he cannot make the sorta impact he is known for. I think Zico will have a better game against Bozsik specially with the defensive assurance that allows him his freedom to run the show.
 

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Anyhow, I really have to go to bed now, not ruining the weekend over this. For all the chat of "how great so and so is", "how brilliant it would be to replicate X side", or "I would love to see a WM tried out", the fact remains to do well in these things you need to target 4-2-3-1 and get the biggest names around, the only thing making the winning sides any different being the constraints involved but always largely the usual suspects come what may.

I thought at least there may be some degree of appreciation/celebration but nope, it's all about how we are all more clever if we play the proven current formation with the biggest GOATs in it.

Boring.
 

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Oh okay, I remember you talking about that very game a lot in the 50's Draft, I think.

Anyway as I said, it is not Laudrup individually that is an issue for me, he had a very good WC and combined well with Elkjaer but it is Beckenbauer who is against him which is where I think he cannot make the sorta impact he is known for. I think Zico will have a better game against Bozsik specially with the defensive assurance that allows him his freedom to run the show.
You've completely forgotten Nesskens there. And Puskas not being an immobile frontman but one who can drop deep and help create (was an inside left to begin with, for starters). If Beckenbauer wants to man-mark Laudrup, be my guest, all the better. Ta-ra.
 

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You've completely forgotten Nesskens there. And Puskas not being an immobile frontman but one who can drop deep and help create (was an inside left to begin with, for starters). If Beckenbauer wants to man-mark Laudrup, be my guest, all the better. Ta-ra.
I haven't, as I said in my first post I rate his 3 more than yours which included Neeskens.

I don't think Kaiser has to man mark Laudrup nor this it warrant that, it is Kaiser's reading of the game that will curb Laudrup's influence.
 

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Kudos to Antohan for trying something different, enjoyed the writeup and tactics.

Well done to both managers though, two outstanding sides and really inventive tactics. Makes it a lot more interesting than the standard 4-2-3-1 which seems to dominate these drafts.

EDIT: Changed my mind on who to vote for, will give it a bit more time.
 

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I haven't, as I said in my first post I rate his 3 more than yours which included Neeskens.

I don't think Kaiser has to man mark Laudrup nor this it warrant that, it is Kaiser's reading of the game that will curb Laudrup's influence.
It would eventually. You are underestimating the fact one side has prepared for exactly this game and this setup by its rival and one hasn't. Beckenbauer and Falcao will take some time wrapping their head around how to deal with the joint threat of:
  • Bozsik and Junior dictating from deep,
  • Romario keeping the defence pegged back
  • Ghiggia and Czibor stretching the field
  • and Laudrup, Neeskens and Puskas operating between the lines
They'll run around like headless chickens for quite a while before they start finding their feet, exerting some control (if they do at all) and providing a viable platform for the three attacking players. These three themselves will need to be providing them with some support, but are baffled at finding themselves stuck in midfield against a high line like they've never experienced before.

When they do start getting their heads around it I'm ahead, and at that point Laudrup's off for Cannavaro and I soak and hit him on the break all day long with acres of space to work in, not just down the flanks but also between the lines. Da Guia played at a time when the offside rule required more men between the attacker and the goal making it almost irrelevant, there's no way he will learn to execute it out of thin air.

But no, let's just go for the simplistic Beckenbauer>Neeskens (despite him scoring against him in 74 and Beckenbauer 66 not being the defensive beast you have in mind), Falcao>Bozsik (feck knows why, particularly when you consider one is in his element and the other in an alien formation), Zico>Laudrup (except Zico sees less of the ball and doesn't have the wealth of options all around him that Laudrup has). Fantasy stuff indeed.
 

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Running like headless chickens? C'mon man. I like the tactical curveball, I really do, but these are players who thrive on figuring out the opponent in no time. Both Scirea and Beckenbauer fall in that category.

Your last paragraph is rubbish, not once I have made a comparison like that.
 

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Oh and again you have brought forward the difference in rules between eras, when we have had the discussion that these things cannot be taken into account while judging or it all just goes tits up and there is absolutely no point in having an all time draft.
 

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Running like headless chickens? C'mon man. I like the tactical curveball, I really do, but these are players who thrive on figuring out the opponent in no time. Both Scirea and Beckenbauer fall in that category.

Your last paragraph is rubbish, not once I have made a comparison like that.
You are again acting like the rival manager, as usual when one of Baresi (arguing against) or Scirea (for) is involved.

Beckenbauer in midfield is Beckenbauer '66 and quite a different player in my book. Scirea working out his role will be important to that midfield, I agree, it's not like them two are getting much support from the front three. But then, bring him forward and there's more room for Romario to receive and conjure something up.

You did make a comparison like that, you said "these three are better than these three" when the context, system and colleagues they are playing with is crucial.
 

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Nah, just the heart of the team, with suitable alternatives in the key roles and improvements in the lower profile ones (RW, back three, other CM).

"Over-engineered" seems a catchy term. Don't get how you can "overengineer" getting a proven side and replicating it.
The lower profile players are still a key part of a side like that. I don't see you replicating a proven side at all. I see an experiment that is doomed to fail badly.

I don't actually love Theon's team, but looked at yours and went WTF, which is surprising because you are usually good with explaining your sides.
 

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You are again acting like the rival manager, as usual when one of Baresi (arguing against) or Scirea (for) is involved.

Beckenbauer in midfield is Beckenbauer '66 and quite a different player in my book. Scirea working out his role will be important to that midfield, I agree, it's not like them two are getting much support from the front three. But then, bring him forward and there's more room for Romario to receive and conjure something up.

You did make a comparison like that, you said "these three are better than these three" when the context, system and colleagues they are playing with is crucial.
What I said was he will win the midfield battle, nothing in regards to individual comparisons (even if they are indeed better individually, I am not going there).

It is about individual battles all over the pitch and that's how I judge the game and I see him winning some key ones here.