R.N7
Such tagline. Wow!
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2007
- Messages
- 35,690
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- a wife, three kids and Eboue
I didn't see your postHey I just asked that!
The question is completely irrelevant though. Workplace harassment and sexism in the workplace shouldn't be tolerated regardless of how frequently it actually occurs, and I know that his line of questioning was heading to suggesting that as I've not worked anywhere for a great length of time I just "wouldn't understand".Answer the question. You do come across as so done who has very little experience in the outside world
It's completely relevant, because I have 10 years of work experience in 2 continents and I've seen this type of bullying or sexism is a result of the culture of work prelevant there. It doesn't make it right though. My company employs over 100,000 people and I'm very closely involved in educating our associates on the etiquette. This is more relevant to us because we employ graduates from rural India and they have the opportunity to work in the US pretty soon. In my experience, wanton machoism and brashness doesn't happen over a day or by one person. It develops over a period of time and with willing participants. These two clowns got fired from Sky and rightly so too. In my view, that doesn't make them unfit for a broadcasting job ever.The question is completely irrelevant though. Workplace harassment and sexism in the workplace shouldn't be tolerated regardless of how frequently it actually occurs, and I know that his line of questioning was heading to suggesting that as I've not worked anywhere for a great length of time I just "wouldn't understand".
But you have never seen it go both ways then. I am struggling to take you seriously now I must admit.The question is completely irrelevant though. Workplace harassment and sexism in the workplace shouldn't be tolerated regardless of how frequently it actually occurs, and I know that his line of questioning was heading to suggesting that as I've not worked anywhere for a great length of time I just "wouldn't understand".
I didn't know that - fair enough, that certainly sounds well beyond the pale.One of the recordings was of him repeatedly asking Charlotte Jackson to tuck his shirt into the front of his trousers and help do his belt up. She didn't respond once so I think it's safe to say she wasn't enjoying the 'banter'.
How is my personal working experience at all relevant? Your own experience is also irrelevant.It's completely relevant, because I have 10 years of work experience in 2 continents and I've seen this type of bullying or sexism is a result of the culture of work prelevant there. It doesn't make it right though. My company employs over 100,000 people and I'm very closely involved in educating our associates on the etiquette. This is more relevant to us because we employ graduates from rural India and they have the opportunity to work in the US pretty soon. In my experience, wanton machoism and brashness doesn't happen over a day or by one person. It develops over a period of time and with willing participants. These two clowns got fired from Sky and rightly so too. In my view, that doesn't make them unfit for a broadcasting job ever.
I know you are the 'in-house' feminist at RedCafe, but believe me, at least I'm doing a fair bit when it comes to educating associates on equal rights. This issue is especially big in India, where we not only have to put up with male dominance, but we have to battle the outlook of the society itself, where some women turn to be the worst enemy.
I've worked in with a painter and decorator, in multiple garages, multiple offices, a school and in various places around my university, and worked in many different roles across all of them. I've seen plenty of things happen in the workplace and be passed off as normal and perfectly acceptable behaviour. It doesn't make any of it right.But you have never seen it go both ways then. I am struggling to take you seriously now I must admit.
You don't troll but then ask one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever seen on this forum.I'm not trolling at all
But seriously if Andy gray went on the rampage and murdered a load of babies, would you even bat an eyelid?
I am consistently surprised that you are so passionate about this subject.
Alex, I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. In fact, I think you are right on the money for the most part. Sexism at work place is very offensive and totally avoidable. I also agree with you that men occupy the top positions and it is very hard for the women to break in to the upper echelons of administrative bureaucracy, although thankfully that is changing now. Women are told to shut up and put up, only because complaints have very little effect and in the end, it's the women themselves who feel victimized. I don't think anybody here is saying 'boys will be boys', or Richard Keys, Andy Gray only did it because everybody did it. Nobody is disputing any of this, before you write up another long essay and we all want the system to change and I hope many posters here take things very seriously.How is my personal working experience at all relevant? Your own experience is also irrelevant.
Employing Keys and Gray in a role that they proved themselves unable to work in professionally, something which they have been completely unrepentant about, would just be silly. We know they are both sexist and we know that neither of them have shown any sort of accountability for their actions. We know that they've made sexist comments and behaved in a way that equates to sexual harassment.
Sexist 'banter' happening with frequency elsewhere doesn't make it right, and I'm amazed that so many people think that reciprocation and a lack of vocal objection means that women don't care. We live in a society dominated by men. Positions of authority in the workplace are statistically much more likely to be held by men. Women are socialised into putting up with the behaviour of men, even when it belittles them and makes them feel uncomfortable, because the behaviour of men is seen as normal and acceptable. There's a reason there's a saying that goes 'boys will be boys', because society tells us that men are not accountable for their own actions, and that their behaviour can be attributed to them just being men. There is no equivalent for women, who often have to deal with the consequences of 'boys' behaving like 'boys'. Is it really any surprise that women keep quiet or even join in when in all likelihood any sort of objection is likely to be met with "it's just a bit of harmless fun" or some equivalent?
The point in bold was brought up by Livvie of all people.Alex, I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. In fact, I think you are right on the money for the most part. Sexism at work place is very offensive and totally avoidable. I also agree with you that men occupy the top positions and it is very hard for the women to break in to the upper echelons of administrative bureaucracy, although thankfully that is changing now. Women are told to shut up and put up, only because complaints have very little effect and in the end, it's the women themselves who feel victimized. I don't think anybody here is saying 'boys will be boys', or Richard Keys, Andy Gray only did it because everybody did it. Nobody is disputing any of this, before you write up another long essay and we all want the system to change and I hope many posters here take things very seriously.
But you have to acknowledge that you and I do not know the work culture at Sky. For all we know, the situation today is no better. But what we can easily judge is that, Richard Keys and Andy Gray were total idiots in doing what they were doing at Sky and that sort of behavior had to be punished and they were both fired from their job. It doesn't matter what was going on before they were there or how many were doing it, they did it, they got caught and they were fired. But the problem here is, there's another broadcaster who gave a chance to Andy Gray after a full three years and suddenly there's a new video released of a past incident and we are quickly passing judgement on him to be condemned. How do you know that Andy Gray hasn't repented and has cleaned up his act? If the punishment for a workplace harassment is permanent unemployment, then there's going to be a lot of firing that needs to happen in this place.
Just for the sake of fairness, this goes both ways. I've known many friends and colleagues suffer discrimination under their female bosses. It doesn't have to be sexual for the discrimination to be hurtful, it can be anything. And there are many women who like and engage in casual, sexual flirting and banter. Most of this boorish behavior is often the result of a guy flirting with a lady and expecting all others to be the same way. That's our basic problem, educating that it doesn't make it ok if it was ok with someone. Your posts are the voice of sanity for all others, but fails to acknowledge this major talking point, which generally makes things more grey, than the usual black or white.
You don't troll but then ask one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever seen on this forum.
"A person cares about something a great deal. They must not care about anything else at all."
What sort of fecked up leap of logic do you make to go from "that person's a feminist" to "they must not care about people killing loads of babies"?
Are you literally incapable of caring about more than one thing at any given time?
Do you feel hungry decide that you'd really love something to eat and then suddenly become completely indifferent to your entire family? Do you hear some bad news from someone and then suddenly become entirely uncaring about the well-being of everyone around you?
I'm passionate about this subject because of the presence of people like you who seem to think that it's all one big joke and that it's all a bit of harmless fun. It's no wonder you're surprised that I'm passionate about it because you're clearly unable to function as a rational human being. Seriously, who goes from "you care a great deal about this thing" to "I bet you don't give a shit when babies die"?
Male. Hence 'him'. I know that a lot of men would say they'd welcome such attention from a woman, yet most would be very uncomfortable receiving it from a man. It's the only way to present a comparable situation.Would this person doing the harassing be male or female?
Serious question
Why do people keep saying this? In no way can it be filed under 'banter'.I think people are blurring the lines a bit. The Sian Massey incident could, at a push, be filed under the banter category. They're obviously not being serious. However the Charlotte Jackson and Claire Tomlinson incidents were the ones where sexual harassment comes into play, and obviously that's a different thing altogether.
Because that's what it was. They don't really believe a professional referees assistant would not know the offside rule. It's banter, but i didn't say it was right. It isn't right, any sexism, banter or not, isn't right. Doesn't stop both men and woman doing so every now and again, does it?Why do people keep saying this? In no way can it be filed under 'banter'.
Have you heard the recording? Nothing about it suggests they meant it in humour. Gray says someone better tell her the offside rule because women don't know it, Keys then agrees. Gray then says someone fecked up big time appointing her to officiate the match and Keys then 'guarantees' that she was going to make a big mistake. They then go on about Wendy Toms and how awful she apparently was before Keys brings up Karen Brady talking about sexism and dismissing it with 'do me a favour love'.Because that's what it was. They don't really believe a professional referees assistant would not know the offside rule. It's banter, but i didn't say it was right. It isn't right, any sexism banter or not isn't right. Doesn't stop both men and woman doing so every now and again, does it?
I have heard it, and i don't believe they really believe that just because she is a woman, she would not know the offside rule. I'd be very, very surprised if they genuinely thought she had worked her way up to premier league standard without knowing the most basic requirement for her job.Have you heard the recording? Nothing about it suggests they meant it in humour. Gray says someone better tell her the offside rule because women don't know it, Keys then agrees. Gray then says someone fecked up big time appointing her to officiate the match and Keys then 'guarantees' that she was going to make a big mistake. They then go on about Wendy Toms and how awful she apparently was before Keys brings up Karen Brady talking about sexism and dismissing it with 'do me a favour love'.
It wasn't simply "Oh, Sian Massey. Women don't know the offside rule, amirite? HAHAHAHAH", although that would still have been sexist.
My understanding of 'banter' is that it's something meant in jest, although nowadays it seems that it's essentially code for bullying, belittling, and generally acting like a massive dickhead. What they did certainly falls under the latter, but I don't think that's what you mean by it.
Come on Alex are you 8 years old? When was the last time you heard two blokes take the piss out of someone that obviously? Pretty much every instance of blokes taking the piss out of anyone (mates or otherwise) involves some or all of bullying, belittling and generally acting like a massive dickhead.It wasn't simply "Oh, Sian Massey. Women don't know the offside rule, amirite? HAHAHAHAH", although that would still have been sexist.
My understanding of 'banter' is that it's something meant in jest, although nowadays it seems that it's essentially code for bullying, belittling, and generally acting like a massive dickhead. What they did certainly falls under the latter, but I don't think that's what you mean by it.
It may have not been a serious comment regarding her knowing the offside rule but they certainly sound serious in their belief that because she is a woman she is incapable of performing to the standard expected in top level officiating.I have heard it, and i don't believe they really believe that just because she is a woman, she would not know the offside rule. I'd be very, very surprised if they genuinely thought she had worked her way up to premier league standard without knowing the most basic requirement for her job.
I don't think so. It was definitely wrong of them, especially in their position whether the mic was on or off. It was a joke, that down the pub would be acceptable. In a professional setting, while working for a top sports broadcaster with a reputation to uphold? Definitely not. But this argument has been had already in this thread.It may have not been a serious comment regarding her knowing the offside rule but they certainly sound serious in their belief that because she is a woman she is incapable of performing to the standard expected in top level officiating.
Most definitely, because they probably do actually believe that. That doesn't mean they're not making a joke about her apparent lack of ability when they say she doesn't know the offside rule though.It may have not been a serious comment regarding her knowing the offside rule but they certainly sound serious in their belief that because she is a woman she is incapable of performing to the standard expected in top level officiating.
They're definitely sexist. My point was more that the offside incident was not nearly as bad as the other two, given that they were used as examples of sexual harrasment.During their three yeas of programming on Talksport the pair of them have had little difficulty in mustering up laughter at jokes even if it does sound painfully forced, however the only amusement to be expressed in the Massey dialogue was from Keys and that at the expense of Karen Brady.
What was abundantly clear is the low regard in which they viewed Massey, Toms, and the opinions of women involved in the sport generally.
Do you think that women's football is great to watch or do you think that it's a joke? Comparing this to racism is a fecking joke. Women's football is shit! Now ask yourself why women's football is shit!Plenty of people on here think sexism is okay, as evidenced by the number of posters who see it all as 'banter' and 'just a joke'.
I know they are going to be considered for jobs in their field. They managed to jump straight into jobs at Talksport and currently have very well paying jobs at beIN Sports.
None of this means that BT employing them is okay, for similar reasons to why employing Ron Atkinson to do punditry wouldn't be okay.
In what way(s) does employing a known sexist in a capacity that should require him not to be sexist, not send the message that sexism is okay?
If you are racist at work, get sacked for your racism, and remain unapologetic for your racism - even going as far as making excuses for your racism - and then a company that is a rival to your previous employer wants to hire you despite your racism, they would be making a ridiculous decision, and would send a message that racism is okay. The same applies to sexism.
I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I'll say it again anyway. We know that Keys and Gray are sexists. We know that they are unrepentant for this. We know that Keys and Gray have sexually harassed female colleagues.
Imagine you're working somewhere and your boss announces that the company is hiring someone that had been sacked from a rival company for repeatedly sexually harassing male colleagues, including asking them to get their dicks out and asking them to tuck his shirt into the front of his trousers for him. You know that this person has never been remotely apologetic for this, and in fact they've gone out and made excuses for their behaviour and tried to pass the blame onto the person that reported them. Would you be comfortable working with this person knowing that there is a definite possibility that they may sexually harass you in a similar way?
It's more bitter than jocular, I'd say. Moaning about the state of the world, what with all these newfangled ideas, like female refs, electric cars and whatnot. Reactionary bollocks more than anything. I doubt they've reflected much on Massey's actual credentials. In my experience few bigots hold any deep convictions. It's usually a matter of simply dismissing anything which is alien to them - they don't actually believe that someone's gender, ethnicity or what have ya makes them inferior.During their three yeas of programming on Talksport the pair of them have had little difficulty in mustering up laughter at jokes even if it does sound painfully forced, however the only amusement to be expressed in the Massey dialogue was from Keys and that at the expense of Karen Brady.
What was abundantly clear is the low regard in which they viewed Massey, Toms, and the opinions of women involved in the sport generally.
I know Howard Webb and Darren Cann seem to knock about together a lot, not sure other than that.Are they not all in a rotation? I'd guess she's used as often as all the others? Or are there officiating teams in the PL? Never noticed actually.
Was told by someone in the newbs that she does a lot of non-league games, as a referee. I wonder if it's that she sees her future as a referee rather than an assistant and so while the odd game running the line in the premier league is good for getting used to that level of pressure, building her reputation as a referee is taking precedence for her these days.Yeah she has had some real stand out brilliant offside calls.
No idea why she isn't used more often.
Or maybe she is and I haven't really noticed. I can only recall one time she has been at OT