Keys & Gray in Sexism Row
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I didn't see your post
The question is completely irrelevant though. Workplace harassment and sexism in the workplace shouldn't be tolerated regardless of how frequently it actually occurs, and I know that his line of questioning was heading to suggesting that as I've not worked anywhere for a great length of time I just "wouldn't understand".
It's completely relevant, because I have 10 years of work experience in 2 continents and I've seen this type of bullying or sexism is a result of the culture of work prelevant there. It doesn't make it right though. My company employs over 100,000 people and I'm very closely involved in educating our associates on the etiquette. This is more relevant to us because we employ graduates from rural India and they have the opportunity to work in the US pretty soon. In my experience, wanton machoism and brashness doesn't happen over a day or by one person. It develops over a period of time and with willing participants. These two clowns got fired from Sky and rightly so too. In my view, that doesn't make them unfit for a broadcasting job ever.
I know you are the 'in-house' feminist at RedCafe, but believe me, at least I'm doing a fair bit when it comes to educating associates on equal rights. This issue is especially big in India, where we not only have to put up with male dominance, but we have to battle the outlook of the society itself, where some women turn to be the worst enemy.
But you have never seen it go both ways then. I am struggling to take you seriously now I must admit.
I didn't know that - fair enough, that certainly sounds well beyond the pale.
How is my personal working experience at all relevant? Your own experience is also irrelevant.
Employing Keys and Gray in a role that they proved themselves unable to work in professionally, something which they have been completely unrepentant about, would just be silly. We know they are both sexist and we know that neither of them have shown any sort of accountability for their actions. We know that they've made sexist comments and behaved in a way that equates to sexual harassment.
Sexist 'banter' happening with frequency elsewhere doesn't make it right, and I'm amazed that so many people think that reciprocation and a lack of vocal objection means that women don't care. We live in a society dominated by men. Positions of authority in the workplace are statistically much more likely to be held by men. Women are socialised into putting up with the behaviour of men, even when it belittles them and makes them feel uncomfortable, because the behaviour of men is seen as normal and acceptable. There's a reason there's a saying that goes 'boys will be boys', because society tells us that men are not accountable for their own actions, and that their behaviour can be attributed to them just being men. There is no equivalent for women, who often have to deal with the consequences of 'boys' behaving like 'boys'. Is it really any surprise that women keep quiet or even join in when in all likelihood any sort of objection is likely to be met with "it's just a bit of harmless fun" or some equivalent?
I've worked in with a painter and decorator, in multiple garages, multiple offices, a school and in various places around my university, and worked in many different roles across all of them. I've seen plenty of things happen in the workplace and be passed off as normal and perfectly acceptable behaviour. It doesn't make any of it right.
I also don't care if you take me seriously Randall, because your only contribution to anything of this nature boils down to nothing more than attempts at derailment and humourless trolling.
I'm not trolling at all
But seriously if Andy gray went on the rampage and murdered a load of babies, would you even bat an eyelid?
I am consistently surprised that you are so passionate about this subject.
But seriously if Andy gray went on the rampage and murdered a load of babies, would you even bat an eyelid?
I am consistently surprised that you are so passionate about this subject.
You don't troll but then ask one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever seen on this forum.
"A person cares about something a great deal. They must not care about anything else at all."
What sort of fecked up leap of logic do you make to go from "that person's a feminist" to "they must not care about people killing loads of babies"?
Are you literally incapable of caring about more than one thing at any given time?
Do you feel hungry decide that you'd really love something to eat and then suddenly become completely indifferent to your entire family? Do you hear some bad news from someone and then suddenly become entirely uncaring about the well-being of everyone around you?
I'm passionate about this subject because of the presence of people like you who seem to think that it's all one big joke and that it's all a bit of harmless fun. It's no wonder you're surprised that I'm passionate about it because you're clearly unable to function as a rational human being. Seriously, who goes from "you care a great deal about this thing" to "I bet you don't give a shit when babies die"?
Alex, I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. In fact, I think you are right on the money for the most part. Sexism at work place is very offensive and totally avoidable. I also agree with you that men occupy the top positions and it is very hard for the women to break in to the upper echelons of administrative bureaucracy, although thankfully that is changing now. Women are told to shut up and put up, only because complaints have very little effect and in the end, it's the women themselves who feel victimized. I don't think anybody here is saying 'boys will be boys', or Richard Keys, Andy Gray only did it because everybody did it. Nobody is disputing any of this, before you write up another long essay and we all want the system to change and I hope many posters here take things very seriously.
But you have to acknowledge that you and I do not know the work culture at Sky. For all we know, the situation today is no better. But what we can easily judge is that, Richard Keys and Andy Gray were total idiots in doing what they were doing at Sky and that sort of behavior had to be punished and they were both fired from their job. It doesn't matter what was going on before they were there or how many were doing it, they did it, they got caught and they were fired. But the problem here is, there's another broadcaster who gave a chance to Andy Gray after a full three years and suddenly there's a new video released of a past incident and we are quickly passing judgement on him to be condemned. How do you know that Andy Gray hasn't repented and has cleaned up his act? If the punishment for a workplace harassment is permanent unemployment, then there's going to be a lot of firing that needs to happen in this place.
Just for the sake of fairness, this goes both ways. I've known many friends and colleagues suffer discrimination under their female bosses. It doesn't have to be sexual for the discrimination to be hurtful, it can be anything. And there are many women who like and engage in casual, sexual flirting and banter. Most of this boorish behavior is often the result of a guy flirting with a lady and expecting all others to be the same way. That's our basic problem, educating that it doesn't make it ok if it was ok with someone. Your posts are the voice of sanity for all others, but fails to acknowledge this major talking point, which generally makes things more grey, than the usual black or white.
The point in bold was brought up by Livvie of all people.
I know they haven't been repentant because neither issued public apologies but both addressed the issue publicly. Keys went off on one about whoever leaked it, taking no responsibility of his own actions, and Gray said he can't be sexist because he has a mother and a wife.
It doesn't matter that someone's leaked a new video now BT have had Gray as a guest commentator. Had they been repentant you could dismiss it as being in the past, but as it is it just serves as a reminder of their attitudes towards women.
Whilst it may go both ways, I can say with relative certainty that the majority of victims of gender discrimination in the workplace are female.
Ok, you took that a bit more serious than I was expecting.
Jesus Al. You're taking this too far. You're losing all sense of logic, reality and practicality like some sort of religious nutter on a crusade. Gray and Keys did stupid things and rightfully got punished for them and that's that. They are, realistically, going to be considered for jobs in their field by a wide number of employers because they were pretty good at what they did. Past sexism isn't going to stop them getting future jobs. Employing them doesn't mean you think sexism is ok. Being realistic doesn't mean you think sexism is ok.
No one here thinks sexism is ok. We all think it was right to sack them. If Gray does something like this again at BT he should get the sack, too. You're flying off the deep end here and saying any employment given to Gray not only lets everyone know it's ok to be sexist but also threatens the sensibilities of every female employee and, in fact, is an absurd decision. Weird.
No one here thinks sexism is ok. We all think it was right to sack them. If Gray does something like this again at BT he should get the sack, too. You're flying off the deep end here and saying any employment given to Gray not only lets everyone know it's ok to be sexist but also threatens the sensibilities of every female employee and, in fact, is an absurd decision. Weird.
Plenty of people on here think sexism is okay, as evidenced by the number of posters who see it all as 'banter' and 'just a joke'.
I know they are going to be considered for jobs in their field. They managed to jump straight into jobs at Talksport and currently have very well paying jobs at beIN Sports.
None of this means that BT employing them is okay, for similar reasons to why employing Ron Atkinson to do punditry wouldn't be okay.
In what way(s) does employing a known sexist in a capacity that should require him not to be sexist, not send the message that sexism is okay?
If you are racist at work, get sacked for your racism, and remain unapologetic for your racism - even going as far as making excuses for your racism - and then a company that is a rival to your previous employer wants to hire you despite your racism, they would be making a ridiculous decision, and would send a message that racism is okay. The same applies to sexism.
I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I'll say it again anyway. We know that Keys and Gray are sexists. We know that they are unrepentant for this. We know that Keys and Gray have sexually harassed female colleagues.
Imagine you're working somewhere and your boss announces that the company is hiring someone that had been sacked from a rival company for repeatedly sexually harassing male colleagues, including asking them to get their dicks out and asking them to tuck his shirt into the front of his trousers for him. You know that this person has never been remotely apologetic for this, and in fact they've gone out and made excuses for their behaviour and tried to pass the blame onto the person that reported them. Would you be comfortable working with this person knowing that there is a definite possibility that they may sexually harass you in a similar way?
I know they are going to be considered for jobs in their field. They managed to jump straight into jobs at Talksport and currently have very well paying jobs at beIN Sports.
None of this means that BT employing them is okay, for similar reasons to why employing Ron Atkinson to do punditry wouldn't be okay.
In what way(s) does employing a known sexist in a capacity that should require him not to be sexist, not send the message that sexism is okay?
If you are racist at work, get sacked for your racism, and remain unapologetic for your racism - even going as far as making excuses for your racism - and then a company that is a rival to your previous employer wants to hire you despite your racism, they would be making a ridiculous decision, and would send a message that racism is okay. The same applies to sexism.
I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I'll say it again anyway. We know that Keys and Gray are sexists. We know that they are unrepentant for this. We know that Keys and Gray have sexually harassed female colleagues.
Imagine you're working somewhere and your boss announces that the company is hiring someone that had been sacked from a rival company for repeatedly sexually harassing male colleagues, including asking them to get their dicks out and asking them to tuck his shirt into the front of his trousers for him. You know that this person has never been remotely apologetic for this, and in fact they've gone out and made excuses for their behaviour and tried to pass the blame onto the person that reported them. Would you be comfortable working with this person knowing that there is a definite possibility that they may sexually harass you in a similar way?
Would this person doing the harassing be male or female?
Serious question
Serious question
Male. Hence 'him'. I know that a lot of men would say they'd welcome such attention from a woman, yet most would be very uncomfortable receiving it from a man. It's the only way to present a comparable situation.
I think people are blurring the lines a bit. The Sian Massey incident could, at a push, be filed under the banter category. They're obviously not being serious. However the Charlotte Jackson and Claire Tomlinson incidents were the ones where sexual harassment comes into play, and obviously that's a different thing altogether.
Why do people keep saying this? In no way can it be filed under 'banter'.
Because that's what it was. They don't really believe a professional referees assistant would not know the offside rule. It's banter, but i didn't say it was right. It isn't right, any sexism, banter or not, isn't right. Doesn't stop both men and woman doing so every now and again, does it?
Have you heard the recording? Nothing about it suggests they meant it in humour. Gray says someone better tell her the offside rule because women don't know it, Keys then agrees. Gray then says someone fecked up big time appointing her to officiate the match and Keys then 'guarantees' that she was going to make a big mistake. They then go on about Wendy Toms and how awful she apparently was before Keys brings up Karen Brady talking about sexism and dismissing it with 'do me a favour love'.
It wasn't simply "Oh, Sian Massey. Women don't know the offside rule, amirite? HAHAHAHAH", although that would still have been sexist.
My understanding of 'banter' is that it's something meant in jest, although nowadays it seems that it's essentially code for bullying, belittling, and generally acting like a massive dickhead. What they did certainly falls under the latter, but I don't think that's what you mean by it.
Like I said earlier I would never say the stuff they said to The 2 girls directly. But how do we know that they don't give as good as they get?
Why didn't or haven't either girl ever taken out a lawsuit against them. Both were fired from sky and would never return. So I would expect sky to fully back one of the girls if they decided to take out a case.
I am not oblivious to the fact real bad stuff really happens in the workplace. But I am not convinced Gray and
Keys are anything more than a couple of harmless old twats.
Why didn't or haven't either girl ever taken out a lawsuit against them. Both were fired from sky and would never return. So I would expect sky to fully back one of the girls if they decided to take out a case.
I am not oblivious to the fact real bad stuff really happens in the workplace. But I am not convinced Gray and
Keys are anything more than a couple of harmless old twats.
I have heard it, and i don't believe they really believe that just because she is a woman, she would not know the offside rule. I'd be very, very surprised if they genuinely thought she had worked her way up to premier league standard without knowing the most basic requirement for her job.
Come on Alex are you 8 years old? When was the last time you heard two blokes take the piss out of someone that obviously? Pretty much every instance of blokes taking the piss out of anyone (mates or otherwise) involves some or all of bullying, belittling and generally acting like a massive dickhead.
Saying that she obviously doesn't know the offside rule because she's a woman and that someone needs to go down and tell her is clearly an effort at humour.
It may have not been a serious comment regarding her knowing the offside rule but they certainly sound serious in their belief that because she is a woman she is incapable of performing to the standard expected in top level officiating.
I don't think so. It was definitely wrong of them, especially in their position whether the mic was on or off. It was a joke, that down the pub would be acceptable. In a professional setting, while working for a top sports broadcaster with a reputation to uphold? Definitely not. But this argument has been had already in this thread.
Most definitely, because they probably do actually believe that. That doesn't mean they're not making a joke about her apparent lack of ability when they say she doesn't know the offside rule though.
I am actually one of Red Cafe's top minds when it comes to analysing and explaining jokes as my tag line will attest. If anyone wants it I can break down the situation for everyone?
During their three yeas of programming on Talksport the pair of them have had little difficulty in mustering up laughter at jokes even if it does sound painfully forced, however the only amusement to be expressed in the Massey dialogue was from Keys and that at the expense of Karen Brady.
What was abundantly clear is the low regard in which they viewed Massey, Toms, and the opinions of women involved in the sport generally.
What was abundantly clear is the low regard in which they viewed Massey, Toms, and the opinions of women involved in the sport generally.
Yes. They are sexists. They clearly don't think women have any business anywhere near football because they don't think they understand it. We know.
They're definitely sexist. My point was more that the offside incident was not nearly as bad as the other two, given that they were used as examples of sexual harrasment.
Do you think that women's football is great to watch or do you think that it's a joke? Comparing this to racism is a fecking joke. Women's football is shit! Now ask yourself why women's football is shit!
I'd forgot all about this one. 0:30 in he puts his feet up on the table, "you could go round there any night and find Redknapp hanging out the back of it".
It's more bitter than jocular, I'd say. Moaning about the state of the world, what with all these newfangled ideas, like female refs, electric cars and whatnot. Reactionary bollocks more than anything. I doubt they've reflected much on Massey's actual credentials. In my experience few bigots hold any deep convictions. It's usually a matter of simply dismissing anything which is alien to them - they don't actually believe that someone's gender, ethnicity or what have ya makes them inferior.
"unbelievable banter"
Poor sods need to get out more.
Poor sods need to get out more.
He's talking as if, as i said, down the pub. Talking to mates, whatever, in a relaxed environment. After so long at sky, maybe he'd been gotten too comfortable. Someone shafted him in the end though. Sorry, "smashed" him.
The funny* thing is, in the 3 years hence, i've yet to recall a single decision Massey has gotten wrong.
*May not be funny.
*May not be funny.
Yeah she has had some real stand out brilliant offside calls.
No idea why she isn't used more often.
Or maybe she is and I haven't really noticed. I can only recall one time she has been at OT
No idea why she isn't used more often.
Or maybe she is and I haven't really noticed. I can only recall one time she has been at OT
Are they not all in a rotation? I'd guess she's used as often as all the others? Or are there officiating teams in the PL? Never noticed actually.
I know Howard Webb and Darren Cann seem to knock about together a lot, not sure other than that.
Right, feck this sexism lark. We need to figure out how officials are assigned to games.
Was told by someone in the newbs that she does a lot of non-league games, as a referee. I wonder if it's that she sees her future as a referee rather than an assistant and so while the odd game running the line in the premier league is good for getting used to that level of pressure, building her reputation as a referee is taking precedence for her these days.