The First Redcafe Sheep Draft

[Annahnomoss]

My opinion is that a team with superior players and more suited players for a midfield/possession battle can rack up 60% possession without using an extremely high press and extremely high defensive line perfectly.

Which of the remaining teams except VJ and Polaroid have a team built to dominate possession?

Direct playing style/"counter-attack"
TITO(Roma 2007
Anto(Front quartet that are way too potent in a direct manner to bother with a possession battle.)
Gio(Rivaldo with two defensive monsters behind.)
Cutch(Stoichkov, Kaka, Enrique)
EAP(Slightly less counter-ish, but Rui Costa - Sheva - Baggio will benefit attacking quickly against an unorganized defense rather than having slow build-up)
Pippa(4-4-2 last time around which won't enter a possession battle.)


I think people read "dominate possession" then think that also means the person is saying they will win.

 

[antohan]

e.g. using Lambert to mark Zidane makes sense, because that's as much influence of him as you can hope for, using Sammer to do that instead of using his ability to control the space and let him make smart decisions where to help out, is a fecking disaster, you hurt yourself a lot then.

Would you say Pol should use Busquets to man-mark Laudrup in a game against Viva? Of course not, makes no sense at all.

I thought we had agreed Guido would be doing it, not Sammer.

 

[antohan]

Yeah it depends game to game and player to player, works at times.

I love German names as well. Franz, Lothar, Matthias, Bastian all great names. Stefan is a bit gay, though.

And Otto . Good to see I'm not the only one.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Whose pick?

 

[antohan]

The problem with Swansea is that they don't have anyone to turn possession into dangerous attacks. Put Zidane in that team and I wouldn't be surprised if thay have less possession, because they wouldn't pass it around for minutes in their own half, they would actually start attacking a lot. (I've no idea what poessession stats they actually have, but whenever I saw them, that was the problem, imo, so I doubt they are a relevant example here).

They are a relevant example. The example of how getting better possession stats means feck all if you can't hurt the oppo.

 

[antohan]

Whose pick?

Mine, I'm still running through the options.

 

[Annahnomoss]

They are a relevant example. The example of how getting better possession stats means feck all if you can't hurt the oppo.

This is exactly my point. Not every team that racks up possession is Barcelona or Bayern under Guardiola. You don't need perfect press or a flawless set of tiki-taka players.

Swansea are 14th in the league and has the highest possession stats(60%), Southampton are 9th and have the 3rd highest possession, which shows how little possession in itself matters. Why would the well created teams in this draft bother with a possession battle? They are already set up perfectly to counter it with solid defenses and direct football.

Swansea had 61% of the possession against United, lost 2-0. Swansea had 55% possession against Chelsea and lost with 1-0. They had 55% against City and lost with 3-0.

These teams like all teams but VJ/Pol simply weren't playing football to dominate possession. So an inferior Swansea with the playing style of possession football, racked up a lot of possession with completely and vastly inferior players.

Of course the lesson of it is possession doesn't matter without creating any chances and possession can enter quite high numbers even when an inferior possession based team players a vastly superior "direct" team.

 

[antohan]

Completely stuck here. Keep running through what I would do vs. other teams and have only managed to rule one out that way...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Completely stuck here. Keep running through what I would do vs. other teams and have only managed to rule one out that way...

Considering almost all other teams except mine and Pippa are setup the same way, which one of us was it?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

4-2-3-1 is killing the draft and football in general!

 

[antohan]

Considering almost all other teams except mine and Pippa are setup the same way, which one of us was it?

Actually, it was the number playing 4-2-3-1 that ruled it out, not you two.

Down to two now based on "if I were to have another shot at reinforcing, which one looks like a waste now?".

feck me if I know which of the other two. Going for brekkie and will make a call then.

 

[Cutch]

You're possibly overthinking this Anto

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

understatement of the draft!

 

[kps88]

You're possibly overthinking this Anto

 

[Moby]

 

[Balu]

They are a relevant example. The example of how getting better possession stats means feck all if you can't hurt the oppo.

But they are not forcing the opponent to play on the counter, they just have more of the ball? That was the whole point I was trying to make. Having 40-45% of the ball is still more than enough to play 'normal' attacking football. The idea that dominating possession influences what the opponent does with the ball in possession so weird. That's where pressing comes into play, because that forces the opponent to play a certain way.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

​

This is basically my team, haven't decided yet between Ince & Modric because I rate Modric really highly and I think people here underrate both his, but more than that -Effenberg's, defensive and tactical abilities.
Lahm performing part time at Guardiola's role for him as one of the key players in possession with his unique understanding of the game, plus he gives me that one more man to win the ball back, and on the other wing A.Cole(joining he's former partners Carvalho-Terry) will be providing extra width and joining Nedved for a mind blowing left side while Nedved can form 2vs1 on the opponent's RB or tuck in more to the middle to help the midfield and possession effort or to drift inside and use his excellent shooting with his right foot.

 

[Moby]

I know Lahm's been good in the midfield role but I'd still have him overlapping down the flank most times.

 

[Balu]

I agree with Aldo, he's been quality in midfield, but he's been an outstanding rightback in a treble winning team with an insane amount of assists. He adds a bit to the midfield battle anyway, but primarly you need him here as a rightback.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I wasn't sure wether to draw that arrow or not tbf, because, and @Balu correct me if I'm mistaken, the way I've seen Lahm's role in Bayern this year the fact that he adds to the midfield battle doesn't stop him from drifting out wide and keep providing the width that he usually provided doesn't it? For example the last game I saw vs Arsenal even when Rafinha was subbed in Lahm still went wide several times and flicked the ball in the box didn't he? That's why I was reluctant of drawing the arrow because maybe I should've drawn two arrows(or only one)..
Plus, the reason I didn't go for Becks(like Crappy suggested me) is because I don't need Becks(yet) to provide those crosses to Crespo and his magnificent aerial ability. I got Lahm and Cashley for that..

I guess I'll drop arrows all together and stick with plain simple formation, while letting Lahm a RB free role which basically means provide width but still do your thing in winning the ball back from midfield.. Makes sense?

Edited that formation

 

[crappycraperson]

I think the front 4 of

Crespo
Nedved-Laudrup-Becks

would have been prefect attacking unit. Given others in the draft, only upgrades I see there are -
Zidane for Laudrup- Not worth it IMO, latter is rated highly on here
Romario for Crespo- probably worth it given his link up with Laudrup would be too enticing for voters

Lahm, Beckham would have been a good combo as well. Becks could have fed him or used his run as a decoy to cut-in and provide those golden balls.

I would not bring up Lahm helping out in MF bit here, it would cause unnecessary controversy and just distract voters from other stuff in your team. Play him as a proper right back and leave it be.

 

[Balu]

I wasn't sure wether to draw that arrow or not tbf, because, and @Balu correct me if I'm mistaken, the way I've seen Lahm's role in Bayern this year the fact that he adds to the midfield battle doesn't stop him from drifting out wide and keep providing the width that he usually provided doesn't it? For example the last game I saw vs Arsenal even when Rafinha was subbed in Lahm still went wide several times and flicked the ball in the box didn't he? That's why I was reluctant of drawing the arrow because maybe I should've drawn two arrows(or only one)..
Plus, the reason I didn't go for Becks(like Crappy suggested me) is because I don't need Becks(yet) to provide those crosses to Crespo and his magnificent aerial ability. I got Lahm and Cashley for that..

I guess I'll drop arrows all together and stick with plain simple formation, while letting Lahm a RB free role which basically means provide width but still do your thing in winning the ball back from midfield.. Makes sense?

That was to specifically target the right wing against a 10 man Arsenal team with Özil not tracking back and therefore having 2 strikers in the box and 2 wide players overloading that side. Doesn't really matter anyway, because you play him as a fullback and have him either drifting inside into midfield or providing width by overlapping. He can't do both and defending at the back. Give him two jobs, he's good enough for that, three is one too many, even for the greats of the game.

 

[Annahnomoss]

But they are not forcing the opponent to play on the counter, they just have more of the ball? That was the whole point I was trying to make. Having 40-45% of the ball is still more than enough to play 'normal' attacking football. The idea that dominating possession influences what the opponent does with the ball in possession so weird. That's where pressing comes into play, because that forces the opponent to play a certain way.

The negative of a high-line and possession football is that you are suspect on the counter because you have involved too many players offensively. Of course you aren't forced to counter-attack in every single attack, but if you do attack direct and quick that is a huge bonus.

So by playing possession football and a high-line you "force" the opponent to play direct football against you. Not because you can't do anything else, but because you want to abuse the fact that Rui Costa/Sheva/Baggio are suddenly up against Ferdinand, Cannavaro and a DM on a counter instead of an entire organized defense.

The goal would be to attack quickly, the quicker you can get in to chances the less possession you have but the more threat you have. What looks devastating about Cutch's side if he is up against Polaroid is how fast he will lose possession after he gets it. Stoichkov, Kaka, Romario and Enrique winning the ball back against a high line just oozes a chance almost instantly.

 

[crappycraperson]

I see anto is being a tease again

 

[antohan]

You're possibly overthinking this Anto

I know I am. I also know that whoever I get drawn against it will be a case of "bollocks, should have picked that other one".

Still stuck.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I know I am. I also know that whoever I get drawn against it will be a case of "bollocks, should have picked that other one".

Still stuck.

Pick the one with longer hair.

 

[antohan]

I see anto is being a tease again

What's the tease? Everyone knows who they'll pick (at least I think I know who they will). The issue here is I'm looking at squad options which may be really important going forward. Or not.

 

[antohan]

Pick the one with longer hair.

I'll have to look that one up. You may have turned it into a three-way again if you are onto something.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I think the front 4 of

Crespo
Nedved-Laudrup-Becks

would have been prefect attacking unit. Given others in the draft, only upgrades I see there are -
Zidane for Laudrup- Not worth it IMO, latter is rated highly on here
Romario for Crespo- probably worth it given his link up with Laudrup would be too enticing for voters

Lahm, Beckham would have been a good combo as well. Becks could have fed him or used his run as a decoy to cut-in and provide those golden balls.

I would not bring up Lahm helping out in MF bit here, it would cause unnecessary controversy and just distract voters from other stuff in your team. Play him as a proper right back and leave it be.

Yeah but on the other hand I see midfields I might have to face and I felt like I needed a powerhouse like Effenberg there:
Busquets-Redondo, Schweinsteiger-Cocu, Simeone-Davids, Dunga-Silva, Viera-Sousa, EAP's diamond, Scholes-DDR-Mascherano
All midfields aren't easy walks here with the some still might improve. With how lightly people rate Modric I didn't want to lose on the course of midfield battle which people always tend to decide matches upon.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I'll have to look that one up. You may have turned it into a three-way again if you are onto something.

Damn it. That backfired.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@antohan do an anto and just screw somebody over and pick his next pick if you know who everybody plan to pick

 

[antohan]

@antohan do an anto and just screw somebody over and pick his next pick if you know who everybody plan to pick

Don't need any of them. One would be a hreat ace up the sleeve but I'd need other changes before using him.

 

[crappycraperson]

Yeah but on the other hand I see midfields I might have to face and I felt like I needed a powheerhouse like Effenberg there:
Busquets-Redondo, Schweinsteiger-Cocu, Simeone-Davids, Dunga-Silva, Viera-Sousa, EAP's diamond, Scholes-DDR-Mascherano
All midfields aren't easy walks here with the some still might improve. With how lightly people rate Modric I didn't want to lose on the course of midfield battle which people always tend to decide matches upon.

You would lose those MFs even with Effenberg in there. Anyway he is a good player so should not matter now.

 

[Pippa]

Who do you think I'm picking?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Beeeecks.

 

[Moby]

You would lose those MFs even with Effenberg in there. Anyway he is a good player so should not matter now.

Yeah midfield isn't something that should worry him when he has 3/4 of RedCafe underrated XI in his defense.

 

[antohan]

feck popular calls (and sentimental ones, sniff, sniff), the right one has been the same all along.

Raumdeuter.

 

[antohan]

Edgar Allan Pillow : 1. Matthias Sammer
Cutch: 1. Kaka
Thisistheone 1. Cafu
Pippa: 1. Vieira
antohan: 1. Thuram 2. Müller
Gio 1. Kohler 2. Hagi
Polaroid 1. Busquets 2. Cannavaro
VivaJanuzaj 1. A. Cole 2. Effenberg

@Pippa

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

You would lose those MFs even with Effenberg in there. Anyway he is a good player so should not matter now.

As Balu said time and time again, Effenberg seems to be massively underrated here, plus with Laudrup in the equation I don't think I'm losing to most of them. I'd take Effenberg-Modric/Ince over some or most of the midfields presented here.

Yeah midfield isn't something that should worry him when he has 3/4 of RedCafe underrated XI in his defense.

Anyone who underrates all three of them together(especially with Gallas being replaced by Lahm) is crazy or stupid. or both.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@antohan really interesting pick. Who was the other options? And where will you play him?