Redcafe Sheep Draft QF4 - antohan vs Gio

[antohan]

I like Popescu on the ball and that Romania team him and Hagi led in 1994 was brilliant, but let's not paint him as some sort of defensive collosus who's going to nullify Rivaldo.

I never did. I said I had three midfielders who only really have Rivaldo as a significant central threat to deal with (neither Davids nor Simeone are Scholes, Redondo, Matthaus or anything of the sort). When I have the ball Popescu is the one staying behind supporting the defence and keeping tabs on Rivaldo. Not a defensive collossus job, the sort of job where you want someone who is a leader, with the right mentality, defensive awareness and ability to react to danger and defuse it.

As far as I can remember Popescu was never part or contributed to any form of robust or defensively robust set-up. In fact his Romania side in 1994, for all their attacking verve, let in 9 goals in 5 games. At Spurs he was part of an embarrassingly poor defensive set-up that conceded 58 league goals. At Barcelona he was good on the ball but weak off it - again as part of an average defensive effort that let in 39 and 48 league goals during his two seasons there. And he's the lynchpin to stop the best player on the park?!

Well chosen "peak" that.

His NT/WC peak wasn't 1994 (where he played in a more advanced role) but 1998 where they went out 1-0 to surprise package Croatia after topping their group with Colombia and England in it.

Off the back of that he was hired by Spurs to sort out this embarrassingly poor defence which featured your own Sol Campbell. Not that I would be stupid enough to assess Sol on that basis. They were a top heavy side, they changed managers soon after and he wasn't best pleased adapting to the Premier League so they parted ways. The defending at Barca was atrocious, I've called it a colander several times. He was one of the few who kept things somewhat sane.

In any case, his peak as a defender and leading a defensive setup you also managed to ignore: Galatasaray, with a team built around him and your man Hagi.

 

[Gio]

From Wiki

Well aye here's the picture from my profiles:

Michel
The foremost right-winger during the late-1980s and early-1990s as his Ballon D'Or nominations (4th in 1987, 13th in 1988 and 1989) testify. His fantastic crossing ability (Vieri's going to have a field day), eye for goal (good for 15-20 a season, 3rd top scorer at Italia '90 and European Cup top scorer in 1988) and creative interplay will be invaluable. Collected 16 titles at a Real Madrid team that was second only to the great Milan in the late 1980s.

 

[antohan]

Michel has effectively got the same sort of legendary crossing reputation in Spain that Beckham does over here. But we've had first Robben and now Muller claimed to be better or even comparable passers. Good one.

As I said, it's not crossing that I'm looking for from Robben, or Müller for that matter. It's dribbling and direct running at a stranded Carboni with one, and more one-touch play with the other.

 

[antohan]

From Wiki

 

[Gio]

Well chosen "peak" that.

His NT/WC peak wasn't 1994 (where he played in a more advanced role) but 1998 where they went out 1-0 to surprise package Croatia after topping their group with Colombia and England in it.
.

I know - how shocking choosing the ages of 27-30 to get a flavour of a defender's peak ability.

 

[antohan]

D'oh! (meant this for the double posting of a photo).

Re: ages. You rate a defender on his peak as a defender, not on a given age bracket. It's common sense.

If you are playing Scholes in a 4-4-2 you probably want the young one and as a DLP the 30+ one. Horses for courses.

 

[Thisistheone]

Good debate going back and forth between the two managers. Gio is up for this.

 

[Gio]

As I said, it's not crossing that I'm looking for from Robben, or Müller for that matter. It's dribbling and direct running at a stranded Carboni with one, and more one-touch play with the other.

Carboni will have plenty of support. He'll get more support from the wide attacker in front of him than either of your full-backs. And when Robben cuts inside, as he invariably does, he comes right into the space occupied by Davids or Kohler. And big Jurgen's perfect for any necessary covering there - after all this is what happened the last time he occupied an LCB role:

 

[antohan]

Ballon D'Or nominations (4th in 1987, 13th in 1988 and 1989) testify.

I'm the salesman here? He got three nominations in 1988 and five in 1989. Wow! World beating stuff.

3rd top scorer at Italia '90 and European Cup top scorer in 1988

Jointly with a handful of other people in both cases. Four goals: a peno and a hat-trick against South Korea.

Yeah, that's the sort of defender I have playing here, the Koreans from 1990.

 

[Theon]

Not sure on Bergkamp as a false 9

Did he ever play that role?

 

[Gio]

Fundamentally with Carboni though is he's had far better right-wingers than Arjen Robben in his pocket in the past. He used to deal well more often than not with Luis Figo for one. He's got the right sort of support around him to make it work: a dominating, energetic left-sided central midfielder; a world-class centre-half accustomed to the left centre-back role; and a long-time club colleague further up the flank.

 

[Gio]

I'm the salesman here? He got three nominations in 1988 and five in 1989. Wow! World beating stuff.

So the Ballon D'Or had fewer nominations then, and you could win it with 10 first-place votes - what's your point?

 

[antohan]

Carboni will have plenty of support. He'll get more support from the wide attacker in front of him than either of your full-backs.

Claudio López is supporting Carboni? Now pull the other.

And when Robben cuts inside, as he invariably does, he comes right into the space occupied by Davids or Kohler. And big Jurgen's perfect for any necessary covering there - after all this is what happened the last time he occupied an LCB role

If he does, who's minding Bergkamp then? Kohler is not playing LCB, he is playing CB, there's no one in the centre to cover him when he invariably ends up dragged wide. Along with Davids, apparently.

 

[Gio]

Claudio López is supporting Carboni? Now pull the other.



If he does, who's minding Bergkamp then? Kohler is not playing LCB, he is playing CB, there's no one in the centre to cover him when he invariably ends up dragged wide. Along with Davids, apparently.

Whenever Robben cuts inside, it's into a clustered area of the park I will surely dominate with Kohler and Davids in close attention. Robben does that a couple of times and his head will drop as it usually does when he's not getting his way. He's manned up a lot over the last couple of seasons, and is starting to deliver on his talent, but still has a lifetime of flattering to deceive at the very biggest stage. Hence why Sir Alex Ferguson called him a coward and why he missed chance after chance in the Champions League Final and World Cup Final in 2010. Shut out his influence in this game and Antohan's effectively a man down.

 

[crappycraperson]

Tough one this.

 

[Gio]

Claudio López is supporting Carboni? Now pull the other.

In fairness he'll be quite busy filling his boots further up the park...

 

[antohan]

So the Ballon D'Or had fewer nominations then, and you could win it with 10 first-place votes - what's your point?

This is the point: you are coming up with completely meaningless records to bum your own players while making up shit on mine.

1988 (Koeman has 39 votes, more than Michel managed in his entire career, yet one is the star and the other is hopeless )

Rank Name Club Nationality Points
1 Marco van Basten Milan

Netherlands 129
2 Ruud Gullit Milan

Netherlands 88
3 Frank Rijkaard Milan

Netherlands 45
4 Oleksiy Mykhaylychenko Dynamo Kyiv

Soviet Union 41
5 Ronald Koeman PSV

Netherlands 39
6 Lothar Matthäus Internazionale

West Germany 10
7 Gianluca Vialli Sampdoria

Italy 7
8 Franco Baresi Milan

Italy 5
Jürgen Klinsmann Stuttgart

West Germany 5
Oleksandr Zavarov Juventus

Soviet Union 5
11 Tanju Çolak Galatasaray

Turkey 4
Oleh Kuznetsov Dynamo Kyiv

Soviet Union 4
13 Rinat Dasayev Sevilla

Soviet Union 3
Anatoliy Demyanenko Dynamo Kyiv

Soviet Union 3
Glenn Hysén Fiorentina

Sweden 3
Míchel Real Madrid

Spain 3

1989
Rank Name Club Nationality Points
1 Marco van Basten Milan Netherlands 119
2 Franco Baresi Milan Italy 80
3 Frank Rijkaard Milan Netherlands 43
4 Lothar Matthäus Internazionale West Germany 24
5 Peter Shilton Derby County England 22
6 Dragan Stojković Crvena Zvezda Yugoslavia 19
7 Ruud Gullit Milan Netherlands 16
8 Gheorghe Hagi Steaua București Romania 11
Jürgen Klinsmann Internazionale West Germany 11
10 Jean-Pierre Papin Marseille France 10
Michel Preud'homme Mechelen Belgium 10
12 Oleksiy Mykhaylychenko Dynamo Kyiv Soviet Union 6
13 Míchel Real Madrid

Spain 5

 

[Gio]

You claimed that Robben was a better passer than Michel. Which you later toned down, still well wide of the mark, to just Muller.

All I've said about Koeman is that Vieri will have the beating of him - in the air and on the deck. Which is pretty likely for anyone who has seen the two play.

 

[antohan]

Whenever Robben cuts inside, it's into a clustered area of the park I will surely dominate with Kohler and Davids in close attention. Robben does that a couple of times and his head will drop as it usually does when he's not getting his way. He's manned up a lot over the last couple of seasons, and is starting to deliver on his talent, but still has a lifetime of flattering to deceive at the very biggest stage. Hence why Sir Alex Ferguson called him a coward and why he missed chance after chance in the Champions League Final and World Cup Final in 2010. Shut out his influence in this game and Antohan's effectively a man down.

Again, resorting to players not at their peak...

If Robben's head dropped, which I don't think it will in this setup and with this support, then on comes Müller. It's very simple really. Then I move on to a more controlling game and dicking you all over the park.

 

[antohan]

For all the bravado and talk of filling your boots and stuff...

You still haven't explained how Davids and Simeone will be enough to recover the ball from a diamond with two attacking fullbacks charging down the flanks.

That's two midfielders trying to stop me transitioning to attack and controlling the game.

It won't work.

 

[Gio]

On Koeman, think this video sums him up well. Turns like a tanker, deadly from a dead ball. It's also worth a watch in any case for the shitty hand Taylor got dealt.

 

[antohan]

You claimed that Robben was a better passer than Michel. Which you later toned down, still well wide of the mark, to just Muller.

I said I struggled to think of any of yours being a better passer than my counterpart. The entire point was to confirm that after running through all eleven players all you could come up with was Michel.

You severely lack in the ability to transition so that Michel is at all relevant.

All I've said about Koeman is that Vieri will have the beating of him - in the air and on the deck. Which is pretty likely for anyone who has seen the two play.

I blame myself for this. The moment I picked him I was fair and square in stating he wasn't a defensive beast, that his main differentiating attribute was starting attacks from deep and that if faced with an explosive striker he couldn't be left as the sole CB.

From that to this there's an ocean though, you are basically treating him as if he were Djimi Traore when he was in fact one of the best defenders in the world for about half a decade (1987/88-92/93).

He quite regularly emerged from games with clean sheets despite being a single CB. He has Thuram next to him here, better fullbacks, and Popescu ahead (a far better defender than Guardiola).

 

[antohan]

On Koeman, think this video sums him up well. Turns like a tanker, deadly from a dead ball. It's also worth a watch in any case for the shitty hand Taylor got dealt.

He's almost on the centre circle and playing an insane high line, not what I'm doing at all.

In any case, nice to watch his goal, and Bergkamp's , and the legend that is Carlton Palmer on the bench.

 

[Gio]

I said I struggled to think of any of yours being a better passer than my counterpart.

I'll happily take Rivaldo over Bergkamp in that regard as well. Although Bergkamp matches him for the five-yard through-balls, his overall range and vision isn't as impressive.

 

[Gio]

For all the bravado and talk of filling your boots and stuff...

You still haven't explained how Davids and Simeone will be enough to recover the ball from a diamond with two attacking fullbacks charging down the flanks.

That's two midfielders trying to stop me transitioning to attack and controlling the game.

It won't work.

It's all about shape, recovery and counter. We get 9/10 players behind the ball as required, win the ball back (because most of my defensive players are better one-to-one than the man they're up against), and hit you on the counter.

Not that it's especially defensive. For example when Koeman passes to Brehme, who knocks it back to Popescu, then we've got our midfield shape together. Our back six are absolutely fantastic off the ball, while Michel and Lopez are disciplined enough to cover in as required.

 

[antohan]

I'll happily take Rivaldo over Bergkamp in that regard as well. Although Bergkamp matches him for the five-yard through-balls, his overall range and vision isn't as impressive.

Yeah, mentioned that one straight off the bat. It really depends what you want from them and how your team goes about things. I wouldn't want Rivaldo for my team, nor would I expect you to want Bergkamp.

 

[Cutch]

Loving this debate. Great effort guys

 

[antohan]

It's all about shape, recovery and counter. We get 9/10 players behind the ball as required, win the ball back (because most of my defensive players are better one-to-one than the man they're up against), and hit you on the counter.

9/10 players behind the ball? The only one of your front four I'd expect to do anything at all is Michel. Since you said he would stay wide to exploit my fullbacks going forward, he has been labelled witht he same brush as the others in the pic below (can't be arsed to redo it).

One way of thinking about my team is effectively a diamond with Cavani and Robben starting from deeper and wider areas. They still both poise a threat if I play the ball over the top so I wouldn't expect you to play a high defensive line. I would rape you.

Neither of your fullbacks where particularly progresssive so I wouldn't expect them to be hanging around on the half way line in some sort of wingback battle.

That's why I ask how the feck Cyclops and the Ape can recover against that diamond with the fullbacks bombing forward. Ignore where I placed them, feel free to position them elsewhere, I could make them run around all game long.

 

[Moby]

the names.

 

[NM]

Rivaldo swings this for me. He was a genius.

 

[antohan]

the names.

I wanted to use Moai for Beppe, but "Old & Older" had that "Dumb & Dumber" ring to it

Non-Spanish/Latin speakers may not have picked how Simeone doesn't only look like an Ape but actually is named as one (Simio = Ape).

Lazy L/R/C isn't just positional, also goes well with Michel (Real), López (Lazio) and Rivaldo (Cunt).

 

[antohan]

Rivaldo swings this for me. He was a genius.

What's the fecking point?

Really, can anyone explain to me how Gio can live with:

• having four players doing nothing defensively,
  
• while none of his defenders contribute anything at all going forward
• nor have the passing proficiency to execute the quick transitions he keeps banging on about

Seriously, look at the picture above and tell me how the feck he can exert any sort of dominance in this game.

 

[Gio]

9/10 players behind the ball? The only one of your front four I'd expect to do anything at all is Michel. Since you said he would stay wide to exploit my fullbacks going forward, he has been labelled witht he same brush as the others in the pic below (can't be arsed to redo it).

One way of thinking about my team is effectively a diamond with Cavani and Robben starting from deeper and wider areas. They still both poise a threat if I play the ball over the top so I wouldn't expect you to play a high defensive line. I would rape you.

Neither of your fullbacks where particularly progresssive so I wouldn't expect them to be hanging around on the half way line in some sort of wingback battle.

That's why I ask how the feck Cyclops and the Ape can recover against that diamond with the fullbacks bombing forward. Ignore where I placed them, feel free to position them elsewhere, I could make them run around all game long.

I still think it mental for you to leave my front four with two defenders goal-side of them. Not a 5 v 4 with one-man cover, not even a 4 v 4 classic, but a 2 v 4!

 

[Theon]

Gio's spine is quite brilliant really, certainly see him dominating that area of the pitch.

Thought it would be Bergomi in the middle with Kohler but moving him to the right has turned into a fantastic decision by Gio - as Cavani is playing some sort of hybrid wideman/striker role there really isn't anyone better to track that movement than Bergomi.

He has Cavani shut out here.

 

[Cutch]

Race card (c)

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Race card is brilliant

 

[antohan]

I still think it mental for you to leave my front four with two defenders goal-side of them. Not a 5 v 4 with one-man cover, not even a 4 v 4 classic, but a 2 v 4!

It's a static picture to give some sort of idea of the issues at hand when I transition. Basically, I can pass my way past your midfield at ease. I don't really need both fullbacks to come forward early on, it will usually be the one on the side the ball is or is more likely to be played. They'll obviously keep an eye on not creating a situation where there's an insurmountable gap/liability.

In a later phase (when closing down on your final third) I effectively have the two CBs and Popescu + Cocu staying deep. That's four on four, nothing mental about it, particularly when you are completely unable to work the ball up the pitch the way a Koeman, or Popescu could. I should have no problems getting back/regrouping.

It's not manic that I leave four defenders on four attackers, what has a bigger impact on the game is how you have four defenders who are only any good for that: defending, and need to stay deep pinned back by two forwards. That gives me greater numbers elsewhere, all game long.

 

[Gio]

Gio's spine is quite brilliant really, certainly see him dominating that area of the pitch.

Thought it would be Bergomi in the middle with Kohler but moving him to the right has turned into a fantastic decision by Gio - as Cavani is playing some sort of hybrid wideman/striker role there really isn't anyone better to track that movement than Bergomi.

He has Cavani shut out here.

With Cavani effectively out of the game, it comes down to Robben and Bergkamp. We've already been over what Robben can do and whether we'll get effective-last-couple-of-seasons Robben or the big-game bottler he used to be. Then we're looking at Bergkamp making the difference. He's capable certainly, but it's another gamble fielding him in a false 9 role with no nearby strike partner to bounce off. Especially when he drops off the backline it's into a scrap with Davids and Simeone, or if he stays high he's marshalled by Kohler and Campbell as required. Bit of a questionable gig for him really.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Gio has a point really @antohan .. I'm not sure what are you trying to prove with that sketch. You will definitely have advantage when on the ball since he's got 3 or 4 players who don't defend, but that has to leave you more counter worry and that sketch doesn't look like you are:
Cocu or Popescu or both or one and a full back HAS to stay deeper to be aware of counters, or you won't be doing yourself any good by attacking 8vs6 every open play attack because he'll have 4vs2 or 4vs3 every counter and that's more dangerous.

 

[Gio]

Race card is brilliant

Diego did have to fend off a late challenge for the captaincy from big Sol, but I told the uppity Spud to cut out the crap and focus on shutting out his former team-mate.