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Redcafe Sheep Draft QF4 - antohan vs Gio

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

antohan

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Not really. In that graphic you've completely over-committed - Sagnol's 70 yards away, Schweiny 25. None of those players will live with Piojo Lopez in a footrace. It's an easy out-ball for whoever recovers possession and is bound to be the vehicle for a goal or two.
Of course they are all at different distances, and let's not get all scientific on the exact yards because ultimately it's a bunch of players dropped in there in what would be a realistic snapshot based on instructions.

I'm not saying they will all run after him, what I'm saying is wherever that hoof goes there is someone close enough to go deal with it. It's not about living with López's pace, he needs to get the ball for starters.

As I said, the ball doesn't magically appear at his feet. If the pass is short (i.e. López needs to backtrack to pick it up) then Sagnol or Schweini may be best placed to try intercept. If it is long then it is one of Popescu or Thuram.

It takes time for the ball to travel to it's destination and in that time players move. Nothing to do with López's pace but whether someone can get to where the ball is going before him. Positioning is the key, not pace without the ball. In fact, the most relevant issue here isn't either of those but him being a midget. He needs my player to feck up the interception because he is certainly not successfully challenging for that ball.
 

antohan

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Anyway Gio, tired of non-sensical arguments where the answer is crystal clear. Eight hours battling deliberate confusion is as much as I'm willing to give this.

Good night.
 

NM

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Anyway, fed up of talking to Gio (who obviously won't agree) and a few token brickwalls.

As usual, there's absolutely no one out there willing to venture anything positive about my team.


Boring.

Over to you guys, enjoy the silence.
And then you wonder why people think you take these drafts too seriously. Your teams (in your eyes) are always unbeatable. Others disagree. You throw your toys out of the pram. Sometimes - play for the fun Anto. It will be better for all as you know your shit when it comes to older players.
 

antohan

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And then you wonder why people think you take these drafts too seriously. Your teams (in your eyes) are always unbeatable. Others disagree. You throw your toys out of the pram. Sometimes - play for the fun Anto. It will be better for all as you know your shit when it comes to older players.
I'm not throwing toys out of any pram. I mentioned it before and it's plain to see there again: everyone sits back and watches on as I have to defend my team all fecking game. Even against Stob, a relatively comfortable win, it was all going on and on about Koeman and Popescu despite some much worse and less suited defenders being on the pitch.

It gets boring, you can't have fun at all when it all invariably turns into having to defend absolutely everything. I've said it a couple of times already, can't be arsed with these drafts any more, not the competition element. I joined this because the sheep stuff sounded fun, that's all, and already said I won't be playing the next one. Really can't be arsed with it.

AGAIN. No one has fully explained yet how Davids and Simeone, with some tracking back from Michel are stopping a midfield diamond and a pair of wingbacks running rings around them all game long while the back four are pegged back and the other frontmen are doing feck all.

Pretty simple and glaring problem.

Nobody cares.
 

Gio

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It's pretty clear. Either I get my players back into a solid 4-2-3-1 defensive shape that is hard to break through. Or you commit so heavily forward that you leave a 2 or 3 v 4 situation at the back.
 

crappycraperson

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This thread has been mostly between you and Gio so far, with others reading up. Generally in all draft matches one person gets targetted and answers most of the questions. In last draft, when I faced Pol, same thing happened. He was not there so I was up against a torrent of questions.

FWIW, I do agree with you that Gio sorely lacks a ball player at the back. His best hope is Davids, if he wants to start any kind of counter attacks. I am also not convinced about the combo of Sol+Bergomi taking care of Cavani and Brehme.

Unfortunately, I don't rate Robben as highly as you. I am also not sure about DB playing a false 9 role. I like Schwini and Cocu in the middle though. As do I love your full backs.

Overall I am still on the fence.
 

crappycraperson

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It's pretty clear. Either I get my players back into a solid 4-2-3-1 defensive shape that is hard to break through. Or you commit so heavily forward that you leave a 2 or 3 v 4 situation at the back.
You lack a player to kick start a quick counter. It is not just about hoofing the ball in the space. Neither of Kohler or Campbell are going to be up for the job. Unless Davids gets on the ball quickly, I don't think it will happen. I also don't think your front 4 will have a telling defensive impact
 

antohan

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It's pretty clear. Either I get my players back into a solid 4-2-3-1 defensive shape that is hard to break through.
As said, it is indeed a hard to break through 4-2 (plus Michel apparently now tracking back).

Two wingbacks, three forwards and the midfielders providing options to recycle the ball and restart. Can keep going at it all game long and sooner or later I'll break through.

Or you commit so heavily forward that you leave a 2 or 3 v 4 situation at the back.
No, I don't need to.

Glad to see Michel is suddenly back up top now, again. He is like David Copperfield this chap teleporting himself across the pitch while poor Andreas Brehme has to actually run the length of it.
 

Theon

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There is nothing to question with Bergomi dealing with Cavani really, Gio is rock solid there and whilst Brehme is a danger breaking forward I don't see it as a game changer - Campbell steps across slightly and Bergomi will cope fine.
 

Gio

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You lack a player to kick start a quick counter. It is not just about hoofing the ball in the space. Neither of Kohler or Campbell are going to be up for the job. Unless Davids gets on the ball quickly, I don't think it will happen. I also don't think your front 4 will have a telling defensive impact
You've seen the images Anto put together. Full backs playing as wingers and wide attackers not tracking back means there's going to be a lot of space available following turnover of possession. Yes it would be nice to have a pure ball player in the back line, but I prefer to focus my defenders on defending first and foremost. Fundamentally I take your point but don't believe we need a Koeman style defender in there to exploit the opportunities that will frequently present themselves.
 

antohan

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Unfortunately, I don't rate Robben as highly as you.
Let's put it this way. If Robben isn't performing at peak he is off in the second half, and if I'm winning I'll also bring Müller on to help close out the game placing a greater focus on possession. Either way, Müller in on in the second half. If it works for you, great, otherwise, can't help really :(

I am also not sure about DB playing a false 9 role.
This whole false 9 thing is turning into a bit of a nonsense. I'm not expecting him to be Messi. All I'm expecting him to do is do the exact same linkup and one touch orchestrating role he always did in the hole, as well as arriving in the box the same way he did as a striker/second striker.

There's literally no difference between how he plays here and how he played with Arsenal, who had no out and out striker/centreforward, just a free-flowing frontline.

The best Dutch creative forward of his generation, straight out of the Ajax Academy, and people question whether he can play that role. feck me.
 

antohan

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You've seen the images Anto put together.
In fairness, I knew myself I was asking for it putting images together. It was always going to be the easiest job for you to interpret as you wish while I spend all day clarifying stuff to people who don't quite get it.

In the meantime a side with four defenders who contribute nothing going forward and four attackers who contribute nothing in defence (bar Michel, maybe) is being held together by two monster midfielders who are having a better game than Redondo against Balu and singlehandedly recovering the ball aways from six players advancing through that midfield.

Anyhow, my uncle just died so really not going to log back on. Nothing to do with toys and prams, in case NM wonders.
 

Balu

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The threat of counterattacks in behind attacking fullbacks is so ridiculously overrated in these draft games, I really don't get it. We had that discussion in so many games recently. A manager plays a standard 433 with a DM and 2 CMs to get the fullbacks involved in attack without exposing the defense and a perfectly reasonable, well balanced set-up is called gung-ho all the time, makes no sense to me.

Some shocking comments about Brehme in this game as well. Someone wrote that he's no Roberto Carlos and won't get back to defense in time if he's attacking so much :lol: and now this beauty:
There is nothing to question with Bergomi dealing with Cavani really, Gio is rock solid there and whilst Brehme is a danger breaking forward I don't see it as a game changer - Campbell steps across slightly and Bergomi will cope fine.
Seriously? If Bergomi tracks Cavani's run, Campbell slightly stepping across is nowhere near enough to limit Brehme's influence on the game. Bergomi will be too late all game long, if that's the plan.
 

Theon

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Seriously? If Bergomi tracks Cavani's run, Campbell slightly stepping across is nowhere near enough to limit Brehme's influence on the game. Bergomi will be too late all game long, if that's the plan.
What? Can you explain what you mean here, it's not very clear. The point is that Campbell steps across when Cavani cuts inside and takes over the marking job - it isn't like he has anyone else to mark - so I'm not sure why that is a strange comment?

Bergomi then moves over to right back again and keeps tabs on Brehme. I know as a German and Bayern player you rate him Balu but Bergomi has enough about him to handle the fullback here.

Anyway, I went into more detail here about how Bergomi deals with Cavani/Brehme, if you want to disagree.

Few ways for that to be okay really, for one what Gio said is of course spot on - Bergomi is quite comfortably intelligent enough to know when to track a Cavani run or when to stay on the right and watch Brehme.

You have to remember football is a fluid and changing game so there will be no one approach Bergomi uses for Cavani/Brehme - for example I would probably assume that his first thought will always be Cavani, and he'll initially track that inside run, but if the attack from antohan starts to stutter/slow tempo, then Cavani has already made his off the ball run and is now stood centrally - he'll quite simply get picked up by Campbell and Bergomi will move wider again.

The threat from inside forwards - as Cavani is playing here - is always the run. Track the run, the element of surprise, and it just becomes a normal forward marked by a centre back.
 

Balu

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What? Can you explain what you mean here, it's not very clear. The point is that Campbell steps across when Cavani cuts inside and takes over the marking job - it isn't like he has anyone else to mark - so I'm not sure why that is a strange comment?

Bergomi then moves over to right back again and keeps tabs on Brehme. I know as a German and Bayern player you rate him Balu but Bergomi has enough about him to handle the fullback here.

Anyway, I went into more detail here about how Bergomi deals with Cavani/Brehme, if you want to disagree.
But that's exactly the point? Bergomi tracks Cavani until Campbell takes over and then has to run back to Brehme? I really really rate Bergomi defensively, but it's just perfect to give Brehme time and space to do something dangerous, because it clearly says, no one is tracking Brehme until it's too late. Brehme can do so much damage from there with Bergkamp drifting between the lines and Robben making runs into the box.

I'd much rather have Cavani run towards Campbell without the ball while Bergomi can focus on Brehme creating nothing with the ball. If you believe that Brehme can't be a game changer when he doesn't get special attention by the opposing defense from the start, then you clearly haven't watched him enough during his peak. Anto's left wing is clearly a massive problem for Gio, Simeone needs to help out against Brehme or it all falls apart imo (unless Michel is all of a sudden tracking Brehme all the time, then I'd argue that Michel's influence in attack is pretty much gone though) and that makes the central area much more vulnerable.
 

crappycraperson

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The threat of counterattacks in behind attacking fullbacks is so ridiculously overrated in these draft games, I really don't get it. We had that discussion in so many games recently. A manager plays a standard 433 with a DM and 2 CMs to get the fullbacks involved in attack without exposing the defense and a perfectly reasonable, well balanced set-up is called gung-ho all the time, makes no sense to me.

Some shocking comments about Brehme in this game as well. Someone wrote that he's no Roberto Carlos and won't get back to defense in time if he's attacking so much :lol: and now this beauty:

Seriously? If Bergomi tracks Cavani's run, Campbell slightly stepping across is nowhere near enough to limit Brehme's influence on the game. Bergomi will be too late all game long, if that's the plan.
I agree completely with this. It is insane. Full backs in all the good teams run up and down the pitch all the time.

I also meant the same exact thing with Sol and Bergomi. The transition between Bergomi switching from Cavani to Brehme is not going to be as simple as it is being made to sound. Infact it seems like a perfect set up for anto.. Cavani takes Bergomi towards the center.. Brehme drives in and has enough time to deliver a cross/pass or even shoot from a good position.
 

crappycraperson

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This whole false 9 thing is turning into a bit of a nonsense. I'm not expecting him to be Messi. All I'm expecting him to do is do the exact same linkup and one touch orchestrating role he always did in the hole, as well as arriving in the box the same way he did as a striker/second striker.

There's literally no difference between how he plays here and how he played with Arsenal, who had no out and out striker/centreforward, just a free-flowing frontline.

The best Dutch creative forward of his generation, straight out of the Ajax Academy, and people question whether he can play that role. feck me.
There is a big difference between someone playing as a second striker with another striker in front or someone playing false 9. At Arsenal Henry drifted out wide but started from center only and normally had the effect of taking a central defender with him out wide since fullback out there already had Pires and Cole to deal with. I do think Gio has a problem here dealing with Cavani+Brehme on the left so perhaps it could work but I am not convinced that Cavani will have anywhere near the same impact as Henry. Also I agree with Balu above that Gio is better off not having Bergomi follow Cavani. Generally though DB will be operating in same area as Simone and Davids; plus will have Kohler and Sol up front to penetrate.
 

Isotope

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Are some people here really imagining on how the game would be played?
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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feck off :lol:

Back to the game,

I actually was leaning towards anto's team till he made the formations in subsequent pages, which actually confused me a lot. As Balu mentioned, the threat of full backs is just overhyped here. I really did not get the point in one of the pictures where Gio's defenders are on everyone except Bergkamp. The impact on a game by even Brehme would only be a fraction of what free Bergkamp can do, so I really don't see the logic in leaving him free there.

Personally I believe that a 4-3-2-1 does require a steady back 4 + a DM to counter properly, which is exactly what you have. What I don't see is how this gives your fullbacks a free roaming licence to romp forward. Not saying they would be tied back here, but their attacking instrincts would need be balanced and not a full attack mode (which is what I got from your comments, apologies if I misunderstood this)

What I also don't agree with Gio is his arguement on your team lacking a playmaker. Even with Arsenal, Bergkamp hadViera and Gilberto (I think) behind him. With the width of your full backs, I think your team should be OK.

Overall, I think you will score first but will also be succeptible to a rapid counter...though with back 3, I think you still shade it for me.....marginally.

Temp voted for anto now.
 

crappycraperson

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feck off :lol:

Back to the game,

I actually was leaning towards anto's team till he made the formations in subsequent pages, which actually confused me a lot. As Balu mentioned, the threat of full backs is just overhyped here.
Err. Balu meant that the point about counter attack being too big a risk if you push full back forward is overrated.
 

Gio

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The threat of counterattacks in behind attacking fullbacks is so ridiculously overrated in these draft games, I really don't get it. We had that discussion in so many games recently. A manager plays a standard 433 with a DM and 2 CMs to get the fullbacks involved in attack without exposing the defense and a perfectly reasonable, well balanced set-up is called gung-ho all the time, makes no sense to me.
It's not over-rated when the manager places unrealistic expectations on his full-backs-cum-wingers. First, having both of them pinned up the park is the sort of thing we used to take the piss out of Kevin Keegan and his swashbuckling Newcastle team for. That can work with a Barcelona type which dominates 70%+ of possession, but is tremendously risky without the hugely superior team Barcelona normally have. One of the main problems in these draft games - if you're going down that route - is folk believing that Barcelona's tactical blueprint is easily replicated in different teams and against better quality opposition.

I can't think of a player in the history of the game who'd do a better job than what Bergomi can in playing as a defensive right-back, covering a (decent in the context of this draft) centre-forward. Michel tracks Brehme as I've said various times and that's job done. If Brehme gets away, as he could do once or twice, Bergomi can shuffle across, Campbell can pick up Cavani, and it's a simple pass-on job that happens hundreds of time in a game and which my back four are more than equipped to do. I appreciate Brehme is a great wing-back, but Bergomi is as defensively solid a man as is possible anchoring that right flank, with the support of an excellent wide midfielder/winger (even man-for-man Bergomi+Michel is superior to Brehme+Cavani).
 

Moby

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I told you anto, don't fix something that isn't broken. :p

Anyway I didn't see the need to have all three of Bastian, Cocu and Popescu in midfield, that's quite a negative approach against Gio who himself is playing with a double pivot. It makes it a bit unbalanced and leaves the burden to create everything on Bergkamp. Yes at Arsenal he had Vieira and a DM behind him but during their best years Pires was a phenomenal player who provided immense penetration and creativity and gave Bergkamp immense support which is the issue here. I love Bergkamp, you can remember me picking him as a second pick in that small PL 20 year celebration draft that we had but I wouldn't have him as someone who can carry a team completely in terms of creating chances on his own while others simple work hard and provide him the platform. As I said at Arsenal it was him, Pires and Henry (who created plenty of chances for others as shown by his great assist tally) who combined together.

I still think you have a better chance of controlling the game with the strong midfield and I expect you to be on the front foot most times but given Gio's very strong defense and two DMs, I struggle to see any great chances being created here.

It's a bit of the same for Gio who's hoping for random hoofs reaching his players, and you have no slugs in defense either. For all the talk of Vieri against Koeman, he's got Lilian Thuram with him to deal with it. Lopez and Michel while very good can be handled by Sagnol and Brehme here. You definitely have enough protection at the back against counters.

But I don't see a clear cut route to goal for either team here.
 

Balu

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It's not over-rated when the manager places unrealistic expectations on his full-backs-cum-wingers. First, having both of them pinned up the park is the sort of thing we used to take the piss out of Kevin Keegan and his swashbuckling Newcastle team for. That can work with a Barcelona type which dominates 70%+ of possession, but is tremendously risky without the hugely superior team Barcelona normally have. One of the main problems in these draft games - if you're going down that route - is folk believing that Barcelona's tactical blueprint is easily replicated in different teams and against better quality opposition.
I agree with that, I said that countless times myself, it's ridiculous. I've no idea why antohan constantly banged on about how he could transform that team into a more possession based side, if he brought Müller on (who's probably the worst player in that Bayern side when it comes to ball retention, definitely worse than Robben). But he also stated several times that he's playing a more direct game, so I don't think that's the problem here. I also don't remember him saying that his fullbacks are pinned up the park? His 2nd formation picture, the only one with both fullbacks in your half, showed the end of one specific attack in which Sagnol overlapped when Robben had the ball and how the CMs could cover, that happens all the time in games and isn't an extreme approach at all. Anto explained it very clearly a few posts later:
It's a static picture to give some sort of idea of the issues at hand when I transition. Basically, I can pass my way past your midfield at ease. I don't really need both fullbacks to come forward early on, it will usually be the one on the side the ball is or is more likely to be played. They'll obviously keep an eye on not creating a situation where there's an insurmountable gap/liability.
I don't agree with his comments about your team, but I still don't see anything in his comments that suggests his fullbacks are acting like you're suggesting they do.

I can't think of a player in the history of the game who'd do a better job than what Bergomi can in playing as a defensive right-back, covering a (decent in the context of this draft) centre-forward. Michel tracks Brehme as I've said various times and that's job done. If Brehme gets away, as he could do once or twice, Bergomi can shuffle across, Campbell can pick up Cavani, and it's a simple pass-on job that happens hundreds of time in a game and which my back four are more than equipped to do. I appreciate Brehme is a great wing-back, but Bergomi is as defensively solid a man as is possible anchoring that right flank, with the support of an excellent wide midfielder/winger (even man-for-man Bergomi+Michel is superior to Brehme+Cavani).
We have to agree to disagree here. I don't think Michel is as lazy as Anto is saying, but there's no way he's working hard enough, let alone good enough defensively, to contain Brehme. And when Bergomi tracks an inside forward, the simple pass-on job you often see when the mark switches from winger to fullback, who try to connect with each other, isn't as simple anymore. Brehme and Cavani will be too far apart most of the time to do that, imo.
 

Balu

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I told you anto, don't fix something that isn't broken. :p

Anyway I didn't see the need to have all three of Bastian, Cocu and Popescu in midfield, that's quite a negative approach against Gio who himself is playing with a double pivot. It makes it a bit unbalanced and leaves the burden to create everything on Bergkamp. Yes at Arsenal he had Vieira and a DM behind him but during their best years Pires was a phenomenal player who provided immense penetration and creativity and gave Bergkamp immense support which is the issue here. I love Bergkamp, you can remember me picking him as a second pick in that small PL 20 year celebration draft that we had but I wouldn't have him as someone who can carry a team completely in terms of creating chances on his own while others simple work hard and provide him the platform. As I said at Arsenal it was him, Pires and Henry (who created plenty of chances for others as shown by his great assist tally) who combined together.

I still think you have a better chance of controlling the game with the strong midfield and I expect you to be on the front foot most times but given Gio's very strong defense and two DMs, I struggle to see any great chances being created here.

It's a bit of the same for Gio who's hoping for random hoofs reaching his players, and you have no slugs in defense either. For all the talk of Vieri against Koeman, he's got Lilian Thuram with him to deal with it. Lopez and Michel while very good can be handled by Sagnol and Brehme here. You definitely have enough protection at the back against counters.

But I don't see a clear cut route to goal for either team here.
Surprisingly, I agree with all that. Has that ever happened before, Aldo? :lol: I can see a few problems on both sides because of bad match-ups which maybe could lead to a goal, but there's no clear cut route to goal anywhere on the pitch.
 

Moby

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Surprisingly, I agree with all that. Has that ever happened before, Aldo? :lol: I can see a few problems on both sides because of bad match-ups which maybe could lead to a goal, but there's no clear cut route to goal anywhere on the pitch.
Don't think so. :lol:
 

Gio

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In any stalemate a player of Rivaldo's ilk can often be the difference. Even a legendary defensive midfielder of Rijkaard or Desailly's calibre would struggle to keep tabs on him and he could have some joy up against Popescu. And as outstanding as he is at finding the corner from 30 yards, his threat isn't confined to long shots and his vision and delivery could easily release Vieri or Lopez.

Rob Smyth said:
Rivaldo often looked apathetic and sullen – his smile was so rare that, when it came, it broke a thousand mirrors, and at times he seemed to dither like a posh boy pretending to have commitment issues – but when the mood took him and he fancied the challenge, he pursued it with the remorseless will and purpose of Javier Bardem in No Country For Old Men. "You know how this is gonna turn out, don't you?"

Three examples spring to mind. There was his coconut-shy at an inspired Paul Robinson in a Champions League group game against Leeds in 2000, when Rivaldo finally equalised in the last minute to (temporarily) postpone Barcelona's exit; an astonishing tour de force against Manchester United in 1998 when, in a game Barcelona had to win to avoid elimination, he equalised twice before creaming an unbelievable shot off the bar and ingeniously creating another gilt-edged chance for Giovanni; but best of all there was the greatest hat-trick of all time, against Valencia on June 17, 2001, a midsummer night's dream of a performance that deserves a book, a film and even a Tim Lovejoy tribute all of its own.

In a straight shoot-out for the final Champions League place, which was worth tens of millions and even more in terms of pride, Barcelona needed a win and Valencia a draw. Twice Rivaldo screamed Barcelona ahead from long range, the second hit with such fury that it knocked him off his feet; twice Ruben Baraja equalised. Then, in the 89th minute, he scored with an overhead kick from outside the box so perfectly executed that it even swerved away from the dive of Santiago Canizares. Even now, it beggars belief.
 

Theon

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But that's exactly the point? Bergomi tracks Cavani until Campbell takes over and then has to run back to Brehme? I really really rate Bergomi defensively, but it's just perfect to give Brehme time and space to do something dangerous, because it clearly says, no one is tracking Brehme until it's too late. Brehme can do so much damage from there with Bergkamp drifting between the lines and Robben making runs into the box.

I'd much rather have Cavani run towards Campbell without the ball while Bergomi can focus on Brehme creating nothing with the ball. If you believe that Brehme can't be a game changer when he doesn't get special attention by the opposing defense from the start, then you clearly haven't watched him enough during his peak. Anto's left wing is clearly a massive problem for Gio, Simeone needs to help out against Brehme or it all falls apart imo (unless Michel is all of a sudden tracking Brehme all the time, then I'd argue that Michel's influence in attack is pretty much gone though) and that makes the central area much more vulnerable.
None of what I said is related to Brehme really, so if you think I underrate him then that is fine. What I said would be the same for any fullback, I rate Roberto Carlos higher than most on here and he was a better attacker than Brehme but it would be the same for him. The point really is how you defend against fullbacks and specifically the fact that a right back can do other tasks whilst also defending against those runs.

Firstly though I think it is quite funny that you came into the thread and said saying how ridiculous it was that posters see the threat of a counter when an attacking fullback gets forward, yet you do see a threat in Brehme exploiting Bergomi moving slightly out of position. So a winger can't exploit a fullback bombing forward, but a fullback can exploit another fullback moving 10 or so yards. Seems silly to me.

For what its worth I agree with you that fullbacks can get forward without it being a liability defensively, but what I don't agree with is the idea Bergomi can't move from that RB area without Brehme capatilising on it. It's just silly really and is nothing to do with how I rate Brehme (highly) but would be the same for any fullback.

Firstly fullbacks don't generally stand in a winger position and tend to be quite a comfortable distance away from the defensive line - the threat fullbacks pose is breaking forward and making that run. They don't start from an advanced position the way a winger does. Why is that relevant? Well simply because it takes them longer to actually run past the defensive line, to breach it and get beyond the defence. If Cavani makes a short, quick run from the left then that is hugely dangerous and as I said before the biggest threat from inside forwards is the element of surprise. If he's pushed right up against Bergomi then Cavani really only needs to take several strides, bend his run and he'll latch onto a through ball - an immediate danger.

In contrast fullbacks need to break forward.. 20 yards? 30 yards? The same immediate threat is not there and the defence can react to that before it creates a clear threatening situation. If Bergomi tracks the immediate run from Cavani (which any right back would do) but the pass gets made to Brehme then whilst he is a good player it is hardly the most dangerous of circumstances - he'll be a good distance in front of the defence, an area of the pitch marshalled by Michel and Simeone, whilst Bergomi makes a 10 yard jog back into position. I don't see a huge threat there.

The risk would be if Brehme could, 1) breach that defensive line the way someone like Carlos always used to, breaking down the flank and then getting a cross in etc 2) cutting in and unleashing a long range shot. The latter isn't relevant here, the whole point you're trying to make is based on Bergomi moving infield i.e. the space is out wide on the flanks and he isn't scoring from there. The first is of course the risk and this is where the point about football being flexible, no one appraoch etc becomes relevant. As I said here Bergomi would just use his common sense and knowledge as a defender to know when to stay and watch Brehme i.e. when the danger is significant and immediate enough to require him to stay out there.

What Gio said is of course spot on - Bergomi is quite comfortably intelligent enough to know when to track a Cavani run or when to stay on the right and watch Brehme.
Point being if Brehme was close enough to immediately exploit any movement infield by Brehme then he wouldn't move. Why would he? If a fullback is just 10 or so yards behind his winger then the right back is never going to move away from that space. I think that is a given really but I guess that is where the confusion has come from. The movement and tracking would come in the occasions where Brehme still has a lot of space to make up - he'll often be starting from a fullback position, especially if Antohan is attacking quickly or countering.

Right backs will do multiple jobs all the time, literally every right back does. They'll attack, they'll watch the winger and they'll watch the left back. You really seem to be arguing that he can't do anything else bar concern himself with Brehme and its just silly IMO. There will be times when the threat of a fullback is so real that he can't move, but in the majority of instances he'll deal with the winger.

I just don't see a huge danger unless Brehme is right up there already (in which case Bergomi wouldn't move). You have to remember also that Cavani's runs are going to be towards goal, so Bergomi is already moving in the safer direction and dropping that defensive line deeper so I just can't see a deep run from Brehme breaching it before Bergomi makes the 10 yard move back over.
 

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Anto's left wing is clearly a massive problem for Gio, Simeone needs to help out against Brehme or it all falls apart imo (unless Michel is all of a sudden tracking Brehme all the time, then I'd argue that Michel's influence in attack is pretty much gone though) and that makes the central area much more vulnerable.
Indeed. Is Simeone supporting though? We don't know and since we don't know he is symultaneously onto Cocu, Bergkamp, Brehme and Cavani. Obviously.

That was the point with Michel, if badly put across: to perform the role Gio has described he can't be knackering himself with this constant to and fro so, effectively, his entire defensive contribution is more likely keeping tabs on Cocu in midfield and trying to battle with him over any pass back to him.
 

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There is a big difference between someone playing as a second striker with another striker in front or someone playing false 9. At Arsenal Henry drifted out wide but started from center only and normally had the effect of taking a central defender with him out wide since fullback out there already had Pires and Cole to deal with.
Of course there's a difference, particularly relative to the last game. Dennis would obviously prefer a striker and two wingers around him. More immediate options for him to play through. That said, the fullbacks are busy with my wingbacks here, Cavani should be worrying Campbell and Robben should be worrying Kohler. One of Simeone or Davids should probably be stuck to Dennis, but of course we won't be told any such thing, they all keep shape and successfully stop anything happen. Just picture it that way and all will be fine.

Generally though DB will be operating in same area as Simone and Davids; plus will have Kohler and Sol up front to penetrate.
He doesn't need to penetrate them, he only needs to steal in when they get dragged, or take them out with a pass to Cavani/Robben behind their backs. As I said, it's regular Bergkamp playing here, he just has two options to play through in the box when usually he would have three. The wingbacks keep the defence busy and stretched so that it's not easy to defend against, but they are unlikely to be played through on goal, which is indeed a loss. You never know, with all that confusion over how Brehme is being dealt with, he is on for nicking one in my book.
 

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Anyway I didn't see the need to have all three of Bastian, Cocu and Popescu in midfield, that's quite a negative approach against Gio who himself is playing with a double pivot. It makes it a bit unbalanced and leaves the burden to create everything on Bergkamp.
:confused: Is Gio's creative burden better spread?

The point in Popescu wasn't being more negative but freeing up the fullbacks. There's quite a distinct difference in quality on the flanks, both my fullbacks are more complete all-rounders and the sacrificed striker should be made up by the constant 2v1 taking place on either flank. But no, them attacking means I must be conceding goals left, right and centre. Evra's form seems to be scarring people and their understanding of how attacking fullbacks work.

But I don't see a clear cut route to goal for either team here.
Simeone fouls Bergkamp. Koeman free kick. Clear cut as can be. It worked, week in, week out, a whopping 239 times.

Draft rule 101: Don't build your defence around Koeman, he will defend like Titus Bramble and make no bigger impact on the ball than the regular beasts. Christ, should have picked Stam instead of Müller and chucked Koeman in the bin.

Outrageous.
 

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In any stalemate a player of Rivaldo's ilk can often be the difference. Even a legendary defensive midfielder of Rijkaard or Desailly's calibre would struggle to keep tabs on him and he could have some joy up against Popescu. And as outstanding as he is at finding the corner from 30 yards, his threat isn't confined to long shots and his vision and delivery could easily release Vieri or Lopez.
And there you are dishing the dirt on Popescu again. feck your legendary DMs, I have Popescu, Cocu and Schweinsteiger all performing a disciplined joint defensive job where Rivaldo is the one that needs taking out.

I take out Rivaldo and you fall apart, so it makes sense you keep going about how it is just Popescu on him despite repeatedly being told it isn't just him.
 

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Awesome, popping in for a few minutes between wake and funeral and managed to extend Gio's lead by two votes through bumping the thread. :annoyed:

:lol:
 

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:confused: Is Gio's creative burden better spread?

The point in Popescu wasn't being more negative but freeing up the fullbacks. There's quite a distinct difference in quality on the flanks, both my fullbacks are more complete all-rounders and the sacrificed striker should be made up by the constant 2v1 taking place on either flank. But no, them attacking means I must be conceding goals left, right and centre. Evra's form seems to be scarring people and their understanding of how attacking fullbacks work.



Simeone fouls Bergkamp. Koeman free kick. Clear cut as can be. It worked, week in, week out, a whopping 239 times.

Draft rule 101: Don't build your defence around Koeman, he will defend like Titus Bramble and make no bigger impact on the ball than the regular beasts. Christ, should have picked Stam instead of Müller and chucked Koeman in the bin.

Outrageous.
It isn't (I still don't know why is Hagi dropped for Lopez) and given the ball players at the back for you if we compare the two teams yours is surely better. But we are talking of penetrating a very strong defense shielded by two DMs which is where you could do with someone sharing that burden with Bergkamp. The point was there's in overkill in your midfield with the workhorses specially as he doesn't even have that much threat down the middle and you are lacking in creativity at the cost of it. Brehme's attacking is good, but who is the target for his crosses? He was great at putting early crosses but I don't see anyone taking advantage of that delivery. Would have been a lot better if you had Cavani leading the line.

I wouldn't call a FK a clear cut route, if that's one then surely Rivaldo smashing a screamer out of nowhere should be as well? These things don't happen as frequently to call it a clear cut route. Relying on a set piece to win a goal wouldn't be really convincing, imo.
 

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I really did not get the point in one of the pictures where Gio's defenders are on everyone except Bergkamp. The impact on a game by even Brehme would only be a fraction of what free Bergkamp can do, so I really don't see the logic in leaving him free there.
Forgot to answer this. I said those pics shouldn't be looked at scientifically. I don't know what each and every one of Gio's players is doing. I just followed his explanation that he was "keeping the shape", that's why Simeone is further up and paired with Cocu but with a line as I obviously assume one of him or Davids would be tracking Bergkamp.

Or maybe not, I don't know. What I do know is I explained what each and every one of my players does, and how, and as usual that has backfired because it gets in the way of people imagining whatever game they want to imagine. I create dissonance on how my team works, not on how Gio's does. Ergo, Gio gets the votes.

That's why I'm bored of this, it's no longer about football, tactics and how things would work or pan out and it's more like a game of Werewolf, i.e. a game of deception, full of smoke and mirrors and acting stupid to milk a "point" which you know is nonsense.
 

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I voted for anto because I think Gio really lacks the right guy to get the counter going, he's got the players up there to counter but the distribution for them won't be fast enough and will allow cocu to retain position, and Thuram to stop aerial balls because they won't be direct enough.
Replace Davids with a weaker but more fitting Xabi Alonso/Modric/Effenberg or someone like that who passes brilliantly from deep and that's a straight win imo, the way this is set, I can see Anto handling Gio's defense, and Gio can't face anto's
 

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The point was there's in overkill in your midfield with the workhorses specially as he doesn't even have that much threat down the middle and you are lacking in creativity at the cost of it.
I run through it several times and kept arriving at the same conclusion: I didn't need a left winger, but I needed to be able to send Brehme forward freely. The solution for that is a defensive pivot who can make up for the fullbacks bombing forward. The fact it helped deal with Rivaldo was secondary.

I did for a moment consider playing Cocu in the pivot and Müller next to Schweini in midfield. What would you make of that? It left me with far too much explaining to do though and I already had enough and knew it would require pictures and that it would lead to mass vote-losing :lol:

Brehme's attacking is good, but who is the target for his crosses? He was great at putting early crosses but I don't see anyone taking advantage of that delivery. Would have been a lot better if you had Cavani leading the line.
The cost of the above was the left winger, not the striker, Cavani starting from the left doesn't mean he has no presence in the box. It's clearly not high crosses I'm looking for from Brehme. Sagnol is more likely to fidn Cavani with a cross, but not Brehme, agreed. Once Müller comes in it's a bit different, but I would still rather Brehme placed low crosses or went for one of his classic screamers.

I wouldn't call a FK a clear cut route, if that's one then surely Rivaldo smashing a screamer out of nowhere should be as well? These things don't happen as frequently to call it a clear cut route. Relying on a set piece to win a goal wouldn't be really convincing, imo.
I'm more likely to control the game, have more players involved in all phases of the game, and will therefore get a lot more free kicks in and around the box. More free kicks = more opportunities, and Koeman scored from them more regularly than Rivaldo. Koeman's free kicks were more nailed-on goals than Beckham's or anyone else I have seen. Made it look SO simple.

I'm not fully relying on that though. It's one very credible route that always gets completely overlooked though. As would the fact Koeman holds the record for most consecutive successful penalty conversions. "Rivaldo would also score from a peno". Maybe, Koeman always did though, sure it should count for something?

Nah, I got Titus Bramble with a fancy name.