Finally...The RedCafe Top 50 Video Games Of All Time - Brought to you by Duffy, not Duffer

Which countdown should we do next?


  • Total voters
    77
  • Poll closed .

Revan

Assumptionman
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If ME2 comes out ahead of ME1 we're never having a top 50 list ever again until all candidates have been clinicallyy screened and passed appropriate fit for purpose tests.
This. Ban now Cina for advocating this terrible ideas that ME2 is better than ME
 

Revan

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Duffy

Who needs races when you're racist?
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Duffy

Who needs races when you're racist?
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I voted Deus Ex too (13 points) Lambo gave it 15 points. Kaos had it very high too.

RECOUNT
It's right, sorry I listed the wrong line of voters from my spreadsheet, will amend it now.
 

Ralaks

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I think since the release of WoW I've spent an actual year playing it, so many good raiding memories..
 

Duffy

Who needs races when you're racist?
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Duffy

Who needs races when you're racist?
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Duffy

Who needs races when you're racist?
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And the top 10 to come later...let the arguments recommence!
 

Duffy

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All, just to make you aware I've just had a call to say my wifes grandfather has passed away so I may have a busy day on my hands - may or may not get back on for the top 10 later but if not I will do it ASAP, sorry to keep you all in suspense!
 

Count Orduck

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Mass Effect 2 was the superior game in every way.

None of them are as good as Dragon Age: Origins.
Shut up Revan, you're even more annoying in here than you were about Moyes. ME2 > ME1, facht.
NiMic :( Cina :( I really expected better from the two of you. Your taste is normally excellent. You disappoint me.

Mass Effect 2 was a fine game. It was perfectly enjoyable. It entertained me.

It was also nowhere near as good as the first.

I'm not going to argue that the original Mass Effect (ME1) had better gameplay. It didn't. The shooting was a bit lacklustre. The Mako missions were kind of fun for a while, but the identical nature of all the minibases you discovered really started to take its toll on the enjoyment there. The improvements in ME2 to differentiate the various classes by giving them special powers was -- in my opinion -- a huge upgrade. It really made playthroughs different, and I loved that.

But everything else about it was inferior.

Firstly, the characters. In the original, they were all fantastic. Even those who were a little "boring" -- like Ashley -- still served an interesting purpose in the story. Garrus, Tali, Kaidan, Wrex and Liara all had such depth that even just talking to them on the Normandy was entertaining. Hell, I didn't even mind the long, drawn out elevator loading screens because of the conversations the two companions would have as you waited, which were always amusing (I also liked the similar "party banter" thing in DA:O).

In Mass Effect 2 (ME2), it was far more hit and miss. Granted, there was some excellent ones; Mordin, Grunt and Legion were all great, and so was Zaeed. Those four were totally worthy additions to the franchise. But the others... not so much. Miranda and Jacob made Ashley from the first game seem like a whirlwhind of charisma and personality, and Samara, Thane, Jack and Kasumi were tedious, too.

What really annoys me is that the only reason they culled all but two of the first game's characters from the story -- and replaced them with new characters -- was to make it easier for them to develop them game; there were a lot of permutations as to who could have lived and died in an imported save. Was it Kaidan or Ashley who stayed with the bomb, for example? Did Wrex freak out and get his head blown off? In order to avoid all of those complications, they just wiped the slate clean of characters and went again. Who cares what decisions you made when we're starting from the beginning?

But there's more to it than that. One of my main gripes with Mass Effect 2 is the way that it functioned on a mechanical level regarding the missions themselves. In the first, there were about five different "areas" that the game was based in: Noveria, Feros, Artemis Tau, the Citadel and Ilos. You spent a significant amount of time in each, not just uncovering the main quest that furthered the initial story, but also playing through the story of that individual hub. You weren't just figuring out what Saren and the Geth were doing; you were also finding the Rachni Queen on Noveria, or the ancient plant deity thing on Feros.

There was a continuity to the story that meant that each area felt like its own complete episode, and yet helped uncover the grand mystery that drove the game. When you disovered the Rachi Queen and made your decision it really felt important, but at the same time made you want to carry on to the other hubs to find out more - I mean, what the hell was Saren doing?

Mass Effect 2 was far more compartmentalised. You just went around collecting companions like you were a Pokémon trainer. Mission A, then Mission B, then Mission C. When you'd completed the set, you did all their loyality missions in the same broken, haphazard fashion. Alright, I'll nip to this abandoned prison planet for Jack's loyalty mission, now I'm on the Citadel helping Thane... welp looks like I'm off to the Terminus systems for Zaeed's. There was no coherency, nor was there any urgency. The game felt entirely piecemeal, with no real plot thread running through it other than "make a team". Quite why I couldn't just use my team from the original, I don't know.

Oh, wait, that's right, because they fecked with the plot. "We need to do something big for Mass Effect 2!" cried the Bioware storywriters. "We can't just carry on with this same epic, amazing plot from the first; a futile battle against an ancient, unknowable terror. People will get bored if we keep our standards this high."

So they killed Shepard off. How original! How exciting! Oh, but look, he can come back from the dead! Because he's Jesus! Even though no one has been able to do this before! And here's the really big twist: you remember those nasty human supremecists from the first game? Cerberus? He's working for them now! Yes! IT'S SO CLEVER AND INTERESTING ISN'T IT?

Seriously, the entire basis for the plot shift was absurd, and ridiculous. It was a ludicrous departure from the story of the first, and just made the transition between games feel jarring. Where did Cerberus suddenly get all this funding? Why are they now so powerful? Why does no one really care? It changed the entire feeling of the game, at least at the start. By the time the game ended it had become irrelevent whether you were working for Cerberus or not, which begs the question... why do it at all? It wasn't remotely needed to further the plot; all it did was feck with the story for ten hours or so and then ignore that it ever happened.

The main antagonists were dull as hell, too. So I've spent the entire first game fighting the Geth, only to be told at the end that they're really just insignificant pawns of a much bigger and more terrifying foe. An unfathomable, ancient evil that represents a threat to the entire galaxy; a dark monstrosity that hungers, that destroys, and one that has never been stopped. That's a great twist; sets up the remaining games quite nicely.

But do I actually get to fight the Reapers in the second game? Not a chance in hell. No, instead we'll make up a new race called the "Collectors" and you can fight against them. Whilst working for Cerberus. Alongside companions you've never met before. Oh, you wanted continuity from the first game? Lolzy. (Bonus points to Bioware for making the one interesting plot twist about the Collectors -- that they're the remnants of the Protheans -- so transparently obvious that it was telegraphed about three hours before the big reveal.)

Also, to anyone who found the Mako missions in ME1 boring, I'll counter that with the mineral scanning in ME2. However dull driving round on the surfaces of identical planets was, it pales in comparison to the exceptional tedium of waggling the mouse around and hoping it beeps. It wasn't even optional - if you didn't want all your companions to die before you even reached the final base, you had to buy the upgrades. If you skipped it, half your team were gone before you could do anything.

All that said, ME2 was still a good game. It was a lot better than most other games released and for someone less invested than me in the Mass Effect universe was probably exceptional. I was disappointed with it because I loved the first so much, and it's such a radical departure in terms of plot, characters and structure that it really jarred.

It did have some plus points, though, and some really memorable moments. As I mentioned, a few of the introduced characters really stick in my mind as excellent additions to the series. The final mission assaulting the Collector base is also gaming gold. I loved the decisions and the pressure of correctly organising my team. I loved how visceral it felt when characters died because I made the wrong choice, although the gratuitous developmental decision to insist that any character I hadn't earned full loyalty on would die no matter what did jar a bit.

For example, I lost Miranda's loyalty when I sided with Jack in their argument on the Normandy, but why that meant she had to be pre-determined to die is a little odd. So because she doesn't like me much anymore, she's less bothered about keeping herself alive? Not even that, she died because she got shot defending that doorway with the other companions whilst Shepard and his chosen two are off fighting the human Reaper (which I won't even get started on...); she didn't put up less of a fight, she just got unlucky. On a separate playthrough, however, when it was Jacob who didn't have my loyalty, he died getting shot through the crack in the doorway and Miranda survived. Apparently Collector bullets are attracted to those who don't like Shepard.

Also, the ME2 story DLCs were good. "Firewalker" and "Lair of the Shadow Broker" were excellent. "Overlord" culminated in a plot twist that made it one of my favourite missions of the entire series, and possibly in gaming ever. It was superb. Genuinely superb. "Arrival" was alright; it set up the third game nicely, at least, though it suffered from the same problem that "Bring Down the Sky" did in ME1 - it was clearly made so much later than the game itself that none of the companions were present (or at least didn't interact, as was the case with BDtS) because they didn't want to bring the voice actors back in.

So ME2 wasn't a bad game. It was very good, in fact. But anywhere near the level of its predecessor?

Not on your life.

I'm sure there's more I wanted to complain about, but it's slipped my mind at the moment. Maybe I'll come back to it. Not that anyone's going to read this post anyway, except for Revan.
 

Archie Leach

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All, just to make you aware I've just had a call to say my wifes grandfather has passed away so I may have a busy day on my hands - may or may not get back on for the top 10 later but if not I will do it ASAP, sorry to keep you all in suspense!
Yeah alright, Stephen Ireland.

Seriously though, sorry for your loss
 

Randall Flagg

Worst of the best
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Its hilarious that some of you get wound up so much that people actually dont share the same opinion
 

Donut

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Seems Dark Souls is gonna be pretty high. Didn't expect that.
 

JP77

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Surprised to see most of the Mario's as low as they are, strange.

Awesome to see FFX make it in and based on the amount of hours I've put in I probably could of pushed World Of Warcraft even higher on my voting list, what a game.
 

Alock1

Wears XXXL shirts and can't type ellipses
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
16,081
Voters changed, it's because Alock1 and Circus Monkey were the first two for Deus Ex and WoW, I listed the WoW voters by mistake - apologies.
Eh? I didn't vote for WoW.

Shit news Duffy, sorry to hear man.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
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Messages
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NiMic :( Cina :( I really expected better from the two of you. Your taste is normally excellent. You disappoint me.

I'm not going to argue that the original Mass Effect (ME1) had better gameplay. It didn't. The shooting was a bit lacklustre. The Mako missions were kind of fun for a while, but the identical nature of all the minibases you discovered really started to take its toll on the enjoyment there. The improvements in ME2 to differentiate the various classes by giving them special powers was -- in my opinion -- a huge upgrade. It really made playthroughs different, and I loved that.

But everything else about it was inferior.

Firstly, the characters. In the original, they were all fantastic. Even those who were a little "boring" -- like Ashley -- still served an interesting purpose in the story. Garrus, Tali, Kaidan, Wrex and Liara all had such depth that even just talking to them on the Normandy was entertaining. Hell, I didn't even mind the long, drawn out elevator loading screens because of the conversations the two companions would have as you waited, which were always amusing (I also liked the similar "party banter" thing in DA:O).

In Mass Effect 2 (ME2), it was far more hit and miss. Granted, there was some excellent ones; Mordin, Grunt and Legion were all great, and so was Zaeed. Those four were totally worthy additions to the franchise. But the others... not so much. Miranda and Jacob made Ashley from the first game seem like a whirlwhind of charisma and personality, and Samara, Thane, Jack and Kasumi were tedious, too.

What really annoys me is that the only reason they culled all but two of the first game's characters from the story -- and replaced them with new characters -- was to make it easier for them to develop them game; there were a lot of permutations as to who could have lived and died in an imported save. Was it Kaidan or Ashley who stayed with the bomb, for example? Did Wrex freak out and get his head blown off? In order to avoid all of those complications, they just wiped the slate clean of characters and went again. Who cares what decisions you made when we're starting from the beginning?

But there's more to it than that. One of my main gripes with Mass Effect 2 is the way that it functioned on a mechanical level regarding the missions themselves. In the first, there were about five different "areas" that the game was based in: Noveria, Feros, Artemis Tau, the Citadel and Ilos. You spent a significant amount of time in each, not just uncovering the main quest that furthered the initial story, but also playing through the story of that individual hub. You weren't just figuring out what Saren and the Geth were doing; you were also finding the Rachni Queen on Noveria, or the ancient plant deity thing on Feros.

There was a continuity to the story that meant that each area felt like its own complete episode, and yet helped uncover the grand mystery that drove the game. When you disovered the Rachi Queen and made your decision it really felt important, but at the same time made you want to carry on to the other hubs to find out more - I mean, what the hell was Saren doing?

Mass Effect 2 was far more compartmentalised. You just went around collecting companions like you were a Pokémon trainer. Mission A, then Mission B, then Mission C. When you'd completed the set, you did all their loyality missions in the same broken, haphazard fashion. Alright, I'll nip to this abandoned prison planet for Jack's loyalty mission, now I'm on the Citadel helping Thane... welp looks like I'm off to the Terminus systems for Zaeed's. There was no coherency, nor was there any urgency. The game felt entirely piecemeal, with no real plot thread running through it other than "make a team". Quite why I couldn't just use my team from the original, I don't know.

Oh, wait, that's right, because they fecked with the plot. "We need to do something big for Mass Effect 2!" cried the Bioware storywriters. "We can't just carry on with this same epic, amazing plot from the first; a futile battle against an ancient, unknowable terror. People will get bored if we keep our standards this high."

So they killed Shepard off. How original! How exciting! Oh, but look, he can come back from the dead! Because he's Jesus! Even though no one has been able to do this before! And here's the really big twist: you remember those nasty human supremecists from the first game? Cerberus? He's working for them now! Yes! IT'S SO CLEVER AND INTERESTING ISN'T IT?

Seriously, the entire basis for the plot shift was absurd, and ridiculous. It was a ludicrous departure from the story of the first, and just made the transition between games feel jarring. Where did Cerberus suddenly get all this funding? Why are they now so powerful? Why does no one really care? It changed the entire feeling of the game, at least at the start. By the time the game ended it had become irrelevent whether you were working for Cerberus or not, which begs the question... why do it at all? It wasn't remotely needed to further the plot; all it did was feck with the story for ten hours or so and then ignore that it ever happened.

The main antagonists were dull as hell, too. So I've spent the entire first game fighting the Geth, only to be told at the end that they're really just insignificant pawns of a much bigger and more terrifying foe. An unfathomable, ancient evil that represents a threat to the entire galaxy; a dark monstrosity that hungers, that destroys, and one that has never been stopped. That's a great twist; sets up the remaining games quite nicely.

But do I actually get to fight the Reapers in the second game? Not a chance in hell. No, instead we'll make up a new race called the "Collectors" and you can fight against them. Whilst working for Cerberus. Alongside companions you've never met before. Oh, you wanted continuity from the first game? Lolzy. (Bonus points to Bioware for making the one interesting plot twist about the Collectors -- that they're the remnants of the Protheans -- so transparently obvious that it was telegraphed about three hours before the big reveal.)

Also, to anyone who found the Mako missions in ME1 boring, I'll counter that with the mineral scanning in ME2. However dull driving round on the surfaces of identical planets was, it pales in comparison to the exceptional tedium of waggling the mouse around and hoping it beeps. It wasn't even optional - if you didn't want all your companions to die before you even reached the final base, you had to buy the upgrades. If you skipped it, half your team were gone before you could do anything.

All that said, ME2 was still a good game. It was a lot better than most other games released and for someone less invested than me in the Mass Effect universe was probably exceptional. I was disappointed with it because I loved the first so much, and it's such a radical departure in terms of plot, characters and structure that it really jarred.

It did have some plus points, though, and some really memorable moments. As I mentioned, a few of the introduced characters really stick in my mind as excellent additions to the series. The final mission assaulting the Collector base is also gaming gold. I loved the decisions and the pressure of correctly organising my team. I loved how visceral it felt when characters died because I made the wrong choice, although the gratuitous developmental decision to insist that any character I hadn't earned full loyalty on would die no matter what did jar a bit.

For example, I lost Miranda's loyalty when I sided with Jack in their argument on the Normandy, but why that meant she had to be pre-determined to die is a little odd. So because she doesn't like me much anymore, she's less bothered about keeping herself alive? Not even that, she died because she got shot defending that doorway with the other companions whilst Shepard and his chosen two are off fighting the human Reaper (which I won't even get started on...); she didn't put up less of a fight, she just got unlucky. On a separate playthrough, however, when it was Jacob who didn't have my loyalty, he died getting shot through the crack in the doorway and Miranda survived. Apparently Collector bullets are attracted to those who don't like Shepard.

Also, the ME2 story DLCs were good. "Firewalker" and "Lair of the Shadow Broker" were excellent. "Overlord" culminated in a plot twist that made it one of my favourite missions of the entire series, and possibly in gaming ever. It was superb. Genuinely superb. "Arrival" was alright; it set up the third game nicely, at least, though it suffered from the same problem that "Bring Down the Sky" did in ME1 - it was clearly made so much later than the game itself that none of the companions were present (or at least didn't interact, as was the case with BDtS) because they didn't want to bring the voice actors back in.

So ME2 wasn't a bad game. It was very good, in fact. But anywhere near the level of its predecessor?

Not on your life.

I'm sure there's more I wanted to complain about, but it's slipped my mind at the moment. Maybe I'll come back to it. Not that anyone's going to read this post anyway, except for Revan.
@Cina, @niMic I wanred you to not mess up with ME2 > ME. And you thought that only I will take that personally.

Excellent review. The only things I don't agree that much is that I liked Miranda (probably because of Yvonne Strahovski) and I think that she did an excellent job. I also think that she was like a 'reincarnation' of Bastilla Shan from KOTOR.

About non-loyal people dying, it isn't exactly that. They die if they are non-loyal AND you either get them in your main party or you give them specialized things to do. You could have made Miranda survive simply by leaving her on the other party (not as a leader though).
 

Red_Aaron

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Dig up stupid!
the list has been ruined by FF games, theres too many incarnations taking up spots in the 50 imho we should have all just picked one (VII obviously) and voted for that as the representative of them all.