Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

[dirkey]

You're right about the fact that he got the majority of his games this season up front: 18 out of 25 starts where as one of the front two. However, he also got 9 goals in those 18 starts, which isn't all too bad. Compared with Rooney (17 goals from 37 starts) and RvP (12 goals from 23 starts), Welbeck goal per game ratio is only slightly below theirs: Welbeck has a goal every two games, Rooney a goal every 1.94, and RvP a goal every 1.91 games. Factor in that both Rooney and RvP take penalties, I'd say the three of them have performed to quite a similar level this season. So, if Welbeck got 40 starts as a striker for United, it really isn't that unlikely that he'd get those 20 goals. But yeah, without one of Rooney or RvP leaving, it looks highly unlikely.

Yeah, I'd imagine if Danny took penalties he'd be far better.
http://balls.ie/football/gif-danny-welbeck-penalty-vs-sunderland/

I know you'll reply and say that the two boys have missed penalties too. And they have. But again, there's reasons those 2 are chosen ahead of Danny to take penalties. Composure. Ability. Clinical nature.

 

[Lynk]

I don't get posting these heat maps, goals to minute ratio comparions. Welbeck isn't as good as Rooney or Van Persie it's that simple. You're mad to suggest otherwise.

 

[dirkey]

I don't get posting these heat maps, goals to minute ratio comparions. Welbeck isn't as good as Rooney or Van Persie it's that simple. You're mad to suggest otherwise.

This. Utter madness to suggest replacing him in the blind hope that Danny will come to that level.

 

[Cerpin]

Yeah, I'd imagine if Danny took penalties he'd be far better.
http://balls.ie/football/gif-danny-welbeck-penalty-vs-sunderland/

I know you'll reply and say that the two boys have missed penalties too. And they have. But again, there's reasons those 2 are chosen ahead of Danny to take penalties. Composure. Ability. Clinical nature.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue that he'd be as good as taking pens. The above is the only penalty I've ever seen him take, and needless to say, it wasn't the best effort. Anyone know if he took pens at reserve/youth level? In any case, it doesn't really take much from my overall argument.

This. Utter madness to suggest replacing him in the blind hope that Danny will come to that level.

Betting on him instead of Rooney or RvP would be a great risk, aye. But I wouldn't call it blind hope. He's got huge potential, he just needs more faith in that striker position, in my opinion. I'm not gonna deny that there's not a bit of sentimentality attached to my reasoning -- preferring an academy player over a player who wanted away not long ago -- but it's not the deciding factor.

 

[dirkey]

Yeah, I'm not going to argue that he'd be as good as taking pens. The above is the only penalty I've ever seen him take, and needless to say, it wasn't the best effort. Anyone know if he took pens at reserve/youth level? In any case, it doesn't really take much from my overall argument.


Betting on him instead of Rooney or RvP would be a great risk, aye. But I wouldn't call it blind hope. He's got huge potential, he just needs more faith in that striker position, in my opinion. I'm not gonna deny that there's not a bit of sentimentality attached to my reasoning -- preferring an academy player over a player who wanted away not long ago -- but it's not the deciding factor.

Ok, I can understand sentimentality, I get that. I want the guy to succeed too.

But wouldn't you agree that he's not as good as either of those players? Thus, wouldn't you agree that we'd be weakening the team? Also, ok, maybe it's not blind hope, but it is still hope that he'll become as good as those 2. So, basically, on a hope, we'd be weakening the team due to sentimentality, without any guarantee he'll deliver to the level they do?

To me, that's madness! It's like a player sitting there on the river in poker with 3 outs in the deck firing all his money in, hoping to hit that miracle card.

 

[Cerpin]

Ok, I can understand sentimentality, I get that. I want the guy to succeed too.

But wouldn't you agree that he's not as good as either of those players? Thus, wouldn't you agree that we'd be weakening the team? Also, ok, maybe it's not blind hope, but it is still hope that he'll become as good as those 2. So, basically, on a hope, we'd be weakening the team due to sentimentality, without any guarantee he'll deliver to the level they do?

To me, that's madness! It's like a player sitting there on the river in poker with 3 outs in the deck firing all his money in, hoping to hit that miracle card.

I'm not so sure he can deliver what Rooney did at his best, but I think he can match Rooney's performances these two last seasons.

 

[dirkey]

I'm not so sure he can deliver what Rooney did at his best, but I think he can match Rooney's performances these two last seasons.

Interesting. Last season Rooney definitely underperformed, didn't look interested etc, was out of favour with regard to his favourite position and wanted out. Yet he still scored 12 league goals in 27 games (my source is wiki, I'm lazy with regard to proper stat sites etc so if anyone has better stats or can show mine are wrong, I'm all for it :-) )

This season, in a shocking team with no confidence and a pretty poor supply line, he scored 17 in 29.

Firstly - I don't think he can match Rooney's past season just gone. That's just my opinion though, and remains to be seen. With regard to the previous season, you feel that Welbeck's ceiling is matching one of Rooney's worst in a United shirt, a season he blatantly wanted out?

Right there is where I think the problem lies. Just because he's a player who came through the youths, so a United man, we should be willing to start him up front in the hope he can become as good as the players we currently have, in their worst season ever? No no no. We should be looking to the standard Rooney has set throughout his entire United career as a benchmark of where we should be aiming with regard to players.

It's like people saying Fellaini is good enough at tackling because he was one of our best tacklers this year, in an absolutely appalling midfield crop. We should be remembering the Nou Camp, Moscow. We should be remembering those sides and the quality of player they had.

Not settling on some pretty average forward (with regard to a top notch, first choice at a top club) because he's home grown!

 

[Cerpin]

Interesting. Last season Rooney definitely underperformed, didn't look interested etc, was out of favour with regard to his favourite position and wanted out. Yet he still scored 12 league goals in 27 games (my source is wiki, I'm lazy with regard to proper stat sites etc so if anyone has better stats or can show mine are wrong, I'm all for it :-) )

This season, in a shocking team with no confidence and a pretty poor supply line, he scored 17 in 29.

Firstly - I don't think he can match Rooney's past season just gone. That's just my opinion though, and remains to be seen. With regard to the previous season, you feel that Welbeck's ceiling is matching one of Rooney's worst in a United shirt, a season he blatantly wanted out?

Right there is where I think the problem lies. Just because he's a player who came through the youths, so a United man, we should be willing to start him up front in the hope he can become as good as the players we currently have, in their worst season ever? No no no. We should be looking to the standard Rooney has set throughout his entire United career as a benchmark of where we should be aiming with regard to players.

It's like people saying Fellaini is good enough at tackling because he was one of our best tacklers this year, in an absolutely appalling midfield crop. We should be remembering the Nou Camp, Moscow. We should be remembering those sides and the quality of player they had.

Not settling on some pretty average forward (with regard to a top notch, first choice at a top club) because he's home grown!

I don't see why he wouldn't be able to match Rooney's total this season. As I pointed out earlier, the amount of games they both needed for a goal was basically the same.

I didn't mean to say that this sort of performance would be his ceiling; just a decent return in his first season as first choice -- and enough to replace/displace Rooney next season.

 

[dirkey]

I don't see why he wouldn't be able to match Rooney's total this season. As I pointed out earlier, the amount of games they both needed for a goal was basically the same.

I didn't mean to say that this sort of performance would be his ceiling; just a decent return in his first season as first choice -- and enough to replace/displace Rooney next season.

So, you think it's worth displacing a player who we know for a fact can hit higher heights than he has in the last couple of years (one when he was fighting with the manager, 1 with an inept manager sending out a toothless side) in favour of a player who has never even remotely come close to doing it?

I understand that a lot of people are annoyed with Rooney, as he asked for a move just a couple of years back due to being played out of position. Yet, Welbeck escapes the same flack, just because he's a local lad? At least Rooney had proved continually throughout his career that he had what it takes to lead the line! Welbeck had a decent stretch for 10 games or so this season, but that's it! 10 games, and you want to replace someone who has given us 10 years? And who is just entering his prime?

I just think it's nuts.

 

[mazhar13]

@dirkey

What will happen when van Persie and Rooney get old? Do we go all-out to buy two forwards at that time?

This is why I feel that Welbeck and Chicharito need to get more match time. Getting two great forwards in the future will become more difficult as inflation continues to affect the football economy. By securing Welbeck and Chicharito into the first team, we'll at least have those forward positions sealed for a long time, particularly when Wilson and possibly Henriquez come up, as well, depending on what happens.

Otherwise, we may have to spend tons of money to replace forwards and maybe even wingers as we aren't even getting good wingers coming up, just yet.

Plus, on a side note, do you always want to see the club buy new players to replace the old guard? Do you want that to happen, every time? I find it more exciting to bring up a great up-and-comer like Welbeck was back in the day and like Wilson is, now, rather than buy to replace the established players.

 

[dirkey]

@dirkey

What will happen when van Persie and Rooney get old? Do we go all-out to buy two forwards at that time?

This is why I feel that Welbeck and Chicharito need to get more match time. Getting two great forwards in the future will become more difficult as inflation continues to affect the football economy. By securing Welbeck and Chicharito into the first team, we'll at least have those forward positions sealed for a long time, particularly when Wilson and possibly Henriquez come up, as well, depending on what happens.

Otherwise, we may have to spend tons of money to replace forwards and maybe even wingers as we aren't even getting good wingers coming up, just yet.

Plus, on a side note, do you always want to see the club buy new players to replace the old guard? Do you want that to happen, every time? I find it more exciting to bring up a great up-and-comer like Welbeck was back in the day and like Wilson is, now, rather than buy to replace the established players.

My point is that I don't think Welbeck is a great up and comer. He has been around for a long time at this stage, and I don't see him blossoming into the next Rooney or RVP. And that is the standard of forward we should be striving to. Thus, when they get old, if someone like Wilson hasn't blossomed to replace them, you need to go spend big to do so.

Ideally I'd like players to bloom and gradually replace those lads. Welbeck has had plenty of time, and to be honest, gets a lot of games every year. More than enough to get the experience he requires. So do you think he needs to get more time than he gets? So you think we should play with a worse player now, because Rooney and RVP are going to get old? So basically, play with a worse player now more often than we have been, while they are in their prime, and then when they get too old, we will be stuck with a player who still isn't as good as they are?

To me, he's a 3rd choice striker. Until he regularly outperforms the guys when given the chance, then he should stay that way.

 

[mazhar13]

(1) My point is that I don't think Welbeck is a great up and comer. He has been around for a long time at this stage, and I don't see him blossoming into the next Rooney or RVP. And that is the standard of forward we should be striving to. Thus, when they get old, if someone like Wilson hasn't blossomed to replace them, (2) you need to go spend big to do so.

Ideally I'd like players to bloom and gradually replace those lads. Welbeck has had plenty of time, and to be honest, gets a lot of games every year. More than enough to get the experience he requires. (3) So do you think he needs to get more time than he gets? So you think we should play with a worse player now, because Rooney and RVP are going to get old? So basically, play with a worse player now more often than we have been, while they are in their prime, and then when they get too old, we will be stuck with a player who still isn't as good as they are?

(4) To me, he's a 3rd choice striker. Until he regularly outperforms the guys when given the chance, then he should stay that way.

(1) Did you always think that Welbeck isn't a great up-and-comer, or did you think so once we got van Persie?

(2) & (4) How will we give younger players chances to play regular football if you always want us to spend to replace? Wilson doesn't look as good as Rooney and van Persie are, right now. If Wilson reaches the same stage Welbeck did at the 2011/12 season 3 years down the line, would you still give Wilson that chance or discard him for another proven forward at his peak?

(3) How else will young forwards prove themselves when they have proven players ahead of them? Look at Thomas Muller for Bayern Munich. He was doing well as a youngster, too, for Bayern Munich II, being the fifth highest goalscorer of the 3. Liga during their 2008/09 season and was getting sub/pre-season appearances under Klinsmann, as well. During the 2009/10 season, van Gaal gave him chances ahead of proven forwards like Toni, Klose, Gomez, and Olic. Why can't we do the same with Welbeck against Rooney/van Persie? Why dismiss him just because he isn't as proven as them? van Gaal didn't think this way when dealing with Muller in relation to the proven forwards Bayern Munich had at that time, and look where Muller is now.

Welbeck's progression has been different to Muller's. Instead of being given his chance up front, he was shunted out wide in the 2009/10 season so that Berbatov and Rooney got more match time up front along with Owen. In 2010/11, he was loaned out in January as he didn't get much match time ahead of Berbatov and Chicharito. At Sunderland, he played out wide as much of the time as he did up front, unlike Muller, who was given a more central role for much of the 2009/10 season (his breakthrough season). Then came the 2011/12 season, and that's when Welbeck actually got his chance to play up front and performed as expected of him given his lack of experience as a forward for the first team at that time. Then he was shunted out wide again to make way for van Persie.

All in all, Welbeck's always had to make way for proven forwards. Muller, on the other hand, got his chance up front ahead of the proven forwards. Both showed lots of promise at their younger ages, but Muller was luckier in that van Gaal didn't shunt him out wide as much as Welbeck played more often out wide during the time when he needed to play, centrally. I hope now that van Gaal either converts him into a wide forward or plays him more often as a forward.

 

[Cerpin]

So, you think it's worth displacing a player who we know for a fact can hit higher heights than he has in the last couple of years (one when he was fighting with the manager, 1 with an inept manager sending out a toothless side) in favour of a player who has never even remotely come close to doing it?

I understand that a lot of people are annoyed with Rooney, as he asked for a move just a couple of years back due to being played out of position. Yet, Welbeck escapes the same flack, just because he's a local lad? At least Rooney had proved continually throughout his career that he had what it takes to lead the line! Welbeck had a decent stretch for 10 games or so this season, but that's it! 10 games, and you want to replace someone who has given us 10 years? And who is just entering his prime?

I just think it's nuts.

Yeah, I think it's a risk worth taking. I'm not really convinced that Rooney can reach those heights again. I wouldn't be surprised if Rooney's already peaked; 28 might be the prime for your average player, but let's not forget that Rooney's been playing at top level for far longer than most players his age. I'd also say that there are doubts over how motivated he is to play for United; he kicked up a fuss last season. This season he's seemed motivated enough, but what about next season with LvG? Considering that the Dutch manager prefers to play two shuttlers and no AM in midfield, and only one striker, Rooney might be forced to play either on the left, or as second fiddle to van Gaal's countryman.

As for the two players' transfer requests, I really don't see the similarity. IIRC Rooney's wasn't because of being played out of position, but because he claimed that the club lacked ambition. Welbeck has been played out of position consistently and has also had a lack of playing time; far more valid reasons for wanting away. Also, we haven't heard any more of it since Moyes' sacking, so chances are also that he was unhappy with him.

Rooney has proven himself, yes, no doubt -- but he's also been giving far more chances to prove himself in his favourite position than Welbeck has.

 

[dirkey]

(1) Did you always think that Welbeck isn't a great up-and-comer, or did you think so once we got van Persie?

(2) & (4) How will we give younger players chances to play regular football if you always want us to spend to replace? Wilson doesn't look as good as Rooney and van Persie are, right now. If Wilson reaches the same stage Welbeck did at the 2011/12 season 3 years down the line, would you still give Wilson that chance or discard him for another proven forward at his peak?

(3) How else will young forwards prove themselves when they have proven players ahead of them? Look at Thomas Muller for Bayern Munich. He was doing well as a youngster, too, for Bayern Munich II, being the fifth highest goalscorer of the 3. Liga during their 2008/09 season and was getting sub/pre-season appearances under Klinsmann, as well. During the 2009/10 season, van Gaal gave him chances ahead of proven forwards like Toni, Klose, Gomez, and Olic. Why can't we do the same with Welbeck against Rooney/van Persie? Why dismiss him just because he isn't as proven as them? van Gaal didn't think this way when dealing with Muller in relation to the proven forwards Bayern Munich had at that time, and look where Muller is now.

Welbeck's progression has been different to Muller's. Instead of being given his chance up front, he was shunted out wide in the 2009/10 season so that Berbatov and Rooney got more match time up front along with Owen. In 2010/11, he was loaned out in January as he didn't get much match time ahead of Berbatov and Chicharito. At Sunderland, he played out wide as much of the time as he did up front, unlike Muller, who was given a more central role for much of the 2009/10 season (his breakthrough season). Then came the 2011/12 season, and that's when Welbeck actually got his chance to play up front and performed as expected of him given his lack of experience as a forward for the first team at that time. Then he was shunted out wide again to make way for van Persie.

All in all, Welbeck's always had to make way for proven forwards. Muller, on the other hand, got his chance up front ahead of the proven forwards. Both showed lots of promise at their younger ages, but Muller was luckier in that van Gaal didn't shunt him out wide as much as Welbeck played more often out wide during the time when he needed to play, centrally. I hope now that van Gaal either converts him into a wide forward or plays him more often as a forward.

1: Considering Welbeck was 21 when Van Persie was signed, it's a bit of a moot point. Time doesn't stand still, Robin has been with us 2 years. If I'm perfectly honest, I've never been a great fan of Welbeck. I think he's clumsy, makes the wrong decision a lot of the time etc. Just a personal opinion of him. This particular debate came about regarding him being clinical however, and I've never once thought you could label the guy clinical. If he was clinical, he would have a better scoring record when given the chance to start up front.

2 & 4: Do you not think Danny has had regular football the last few years? Ok, he's not an automatic starter, but we all know the players interchange quite a bit, and he has played plenty up there. For me, he's playing more than enough to get that experience and at this stage to be showing me that he's got what it takes. Look at the age of the likes of Rooney, RvP, Henry when they were making breakthroughs. Drogba style blossoming is pretty rare. I have never said I want to discard Welbeck. I just don't think he is currently good enough, nor shows signs of being good enough to be our first choice striker. The likes of RVP and Rooney are how good we should expect our strikers to be. It's my own opinion that he won't get to that level. I pray to God I'm wrong.

3: I'll be honest and say I'm not massively familiar with Muller's progression with Bayern. I can only surmise that he took his chances when given to him, and that he also showed it repeatedly in training. I'm not privy to United's training, sadly, but I can again only surmise that Fergie and Moyes weren't seeing enough in him there to make him a first choice striker. When pressed into the role I would argue that he has done ok, not great, as some people here seem to feel.

Maybe Muller wasn't luckier than Welbeck in not being shunted wide? Maybe it was because he showed a better eye for goal?

 

[dirkey]

Yeah, I think it's a risk worth taking. I'm not really convinced that Rooney can reach those heights again. I wouldn't be surprised if Rooney's already peaked; 28 might be the prime for your average player, but let's not forget that Rooney's been playing at top level for far longer than most players his age. I'd also say that there are doubts over how motivated he is to play for United; he kicked up a fuss last season. This season he's seemed motivated enough, but what about next season with LvG? Considering that the Dutch manager prefers to play two shuttlers and no AM in midfield, and only one striker, Rooney might be forced to play either on the left, or as second fiddle to van Gaal's countryman.

As for the two players' transfer requests, I really don't see the similarity. IIRC Rooney's wasn't because of being played out of position, but because he claimed that the club lacked ambition. Welbeck has been played out of position consistently and has also had a lack of playing time; far more valid reasons for wanting away. Also, we haven't heard any more of it since Moyes' sacking, so chances are also that he was unhappy with him.

Rooney has proven himself, yes, no doubt -- but he's also been giving far more chances to prove himself in his favourite position than Welbeck has.

Ok, fair enough if you think it's a risk worth taking. That's totally your prerogative. You may again be correct about Rooney peaking - who knows? I hope you're wrong about that ... just as I hope I'm wrong about the ceiling to Danny's ability.

Again, Rooney has proven himself and has been given more chances in his favoured position - as I said in my last post though, I think there's a reason for that. Namely, he's a better player, in all facets of his game. He's without a doubt a better finisher, hence why he gets the nod up front more often. Opposition managers game plan to take Rooney out of the game. They don't do likewise for Welbeck.

You are right about the Moyes / Welbeck thing, I definitely think that may have contributed to it. Likewise though, Rooney seems pretty happy since Fergie left the dugout, their relationship had obviously broken down too.

 

[mazhar13]

If he was clinical, he would have a better scoring record when given the chance to start up front.
...
Maybe Muller wasn't luckier than Welbeck in not being shunted wide? Maybe it was because he showed a better eye for goal?

Looking at Muller's first full season at Bayern Munich, his scoring record was 19 goals in 52 appearances. In Welbeck's first season, Welbeck got 12 in 39 appearances. If anything, Welbeck showed himself to be more clinical than Muller was, and Welbeck even played out wide a few times for us in his first full season. Comparing both to Wayne Rooney's first full season at Man. Utd. (keep in mind he had full seasons at Everton, before this), Rooney scored 17 goals in 43 appearances. Young forwards playing their first full seasons rarely are clinical at the top level and don't really show signs of a predator/clinical goalscorer until they go through at least 2-3 full seasons as a forward, normally (from what I've seen).

If I'm perfectly honest, I've never been a great fan of Welbeck. I think he's clumsy, makes the wrong decision a lot of the time etc. Just a personal opinion of him.

If you continue to see him like this, then fair enough. I don't see him as clumsy as he used to be from the 2008/09 season to the 2011/12 season. He's really improved on his ball control and dribbling and rarely falls down/loses the ball clumsily like he used to. His decision-making has also improved, but that has some ways to go for him in terms of his positioning and movement.

2 & 4: Do you not think Danny has had regular football the last few years? Ok, he's not an automatic starter, but we all know the players interchange quite a bit, and he has played plenty up there. For me, he's playing more than enough to get that experience and at this stage to be showing me that he's got what it takes. Look at the age of the likes of Rooney, RvP, Henry when they were making breakthroughs. Drogba style blossoming is pretty rare.

When compared to other young forwards who were at a state similar to him, then no. Rooney got tons of appearances for Everton and Man. Utd. since his wonder goal against Arsenal in the 2001/02 season. van Persie was a regular for Arsenal since the age of 20 even when he's suffered several injuries in his time, there. Muller had 52 appearances in his first full season at the age of 20, and since then, has been a regular fixture at Bayern Munich. Henry was a regular for Monaco since the age of 19. Looking at world class forwards of today, many of them have played regularly as a forward since the age of 18/19 for smaller clubs at lower-level leagues. Compare them to Welbeck who didn't get his first full season until the age of 20. Before that, he was playing out wide more often than up front for Sunderland and Man. Utd's first team.

In the end, all of this has resulted in Welbeck being 3rd choice behind Rooney and van Persie. He's had two seasons, so far, where he's played up front more regularly than he has out wide. Given how other great forwards have done in their third season as a forward, I'd expect Danny Welbeck to show more improvement and start to become a more key figure if given the chance to play more of a goalscoring role next season (whether from out wide like Muller or up front). It all depends on what the new manager wants, though. Regardless, Welbeck hasn't been able to progress to what he could have been due to the circumstances I have previously described in this thread, and this will make it more important for him to prove himself to the new manager, next season.

I still think Welbeck can make it here as a first-team player if given the chances to do so. If he doesn't show improvement, next season, then I'll realise that he can't make it here. Until then, we've got to wait and see.

 

[Plugsy]

If the criteria is that Welbeck could score more goals if he played 40+ games a season up front and was unique to every other striker perhaps in the league told that he didn't have to get involved in play or create his own chances or do anything but stand there and wait to score - I'd agree. But you'd struggle to name many strikers who couldn't, it's hardly saying something of note.

 

[finneh]

I've said it before. His problem is he plays in a position where there is no margin for error. We can't spend 2-3 years bedding him into being a 20 goal a season striker, because for those 2-3 years it'll prove costly. RVP last year was a prime example of why a team needs a solid World Class goalscorer, likewise Rooney 11/12 and Ronaldo 07/08.

A team with Welbeck up front every single game would not win the League the vast majority of the time, which is true of almost every young striker. This is why as a club we should have sent him out on loan for the last 2 seasons. Lukaku is 2.5 years younger than Welbeck and is a better centre forward. Not because he is more talented, but because he has played 80% of minutes over the last 2 seasons in his preferred position and so has vastly improved all attributes required in that position.

As a club we've decided that turning Welbeck into a good utility player who can play well in 2-3 positions is more preferable than sending him on loan for a few years and turning him into a great centre forward.

 

[Cerpin]

Ok, fair enough if you think it's a risk worth taking. That's totally your prerogative. You may again be correct about Rooney peaking - who knows? I hope you're wrong about that ... just as I hope I'm wrong about the ceiling to Danny's ability.

Again, Rooney has proven himself and has been given more chances in his favoured position - as I said in my last post though, I think there's a reason for that. Namely, he's a better player, in all facets of his game. He's without a doubt a better finisher, hence why he gets the nod up front more often. Opposition managers game plan to take Rooney out of the game. They don't do likewise for Welbeck.

You are right about the Moyes / Welbeck thing, I definitely think that may have contributed to it. Likewise though, Rooney seems pretty happy since Fergie left the dugout, their relationship had obviously broken down too.

Yeah, you're right. Rooney was clearly the more eye-catching talent at the same age, so it's fair enough that he was given more games.

I disagree about Rooney being better in all facets of the game. To me, Welbeck is faster, more likely to beat a man these days, more athletic, and better in the air (although Rooney is better at placing the ball with his head). They're both hard-working with an inconsistent touch, while Rooney is, as you say, a better finisher, a better passer (long and short -- although Danny's link-up play is excellent at times), more creative, better set pieces, and a better distance-shooter. But yeah, I'm a big Welbeck-fan, no doubt. I mentioned it a few times in the Newbs: his combination of pace, power, and work-rate is something quite unique in football.

If the criteria is that Welbeck could score more goals if he played 40+ games a season up front and was unique to every other striker perhaps in the league told that he didn't have to get involved in play or create his own chances or do anything but stand there and wait to score - I'd agree. But you'd struggle to name many strikers who couldn't, it's hardly saying something of note.

Has anyone put forth this claim? If so, that's bizarre. Of course he should involve himself in the build-up, his link-up play is quite good. And it wouldn't hinder his goal-scoring at all, if he was actually played up top.

I've said it before. His problem is he plays in a position where there is no margin for error. We can't spend 2-3 years bedding him into being a 20 goal a season striker, because for those 2-3 years it'll prove costly. RVP last year was a prime example of why a team needs a solid World Class goalscorer, likewise Rooney 11/12 and Ronaldo 07/08.

A team with Welbeck up front every single game would not win the League the vast majority of the time, which is true of almost every young striker. This is why as a club we should have sent him out on loan for the last 2 seasons. Lukaku is 2.5 years younger than Welbeck and is a better centre forward. Not because he is more talented, but because he has played 80% of minutes over the last 2 seasons in his preferred position and so has vastly improved all attributes required in that position.

As a club we've decided that turning Welbeck into a good utility player who can play well in 2-3 positions is more preferable than sending him on loan for a few years and turning him into a great centre forward.

That's a good point. He's been the victim of his own versatility, as so many other players.

I still think he could make an acceptable contribution if he became one of our two preferred strikers next season. I definitely don't see him bagging 30-40 goals next season like Rooney and RvP have proved the can. But he could definitely score 15-20 goals, much like Saha in that 06/7 season, while other players also chipped in. We've got Mata now who's good for at least +10 goals every season, and perhaps we'll bring in another goal-scoring winger (or get Nani firing again -- might be asking for too much there).

 

[finneh]

I still think he could make an acceptable contribution if he became one of our two preferred strikers next season. I definitely don't see him bagging 30-40 goals next season like Rooney and RvP have proved the can. But he could definitely score 15-20 goals, much like Saha in that 06/7 season, while other players also chipped in. We've got Mata now who's good for at least +10 goals every season, and perhaps we'll bring in another goal-scoring winger (or get Nani firing again -- might be asking for too much there).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with turning Welbeck into a versatile player who can be a great squad player in the future.

In all fairness there is a good chance Fergie thought he would never make it as the lead goalscorer in a top class team, so thought the best way for him to grow to be an asset to United was if he could perform well in 3-4 positions. He may have thought "what's better: him being a backup striker that only plays when our World Class striker is injured, or someone who plays well for 40 games a season in a variety of positions."

If this was Fergie's thought process then I agree 100%. Not everyone can be the World Class goalscorer that is required at a top team (see how not having one has affected Arsenal/Chelsea vs how a top one has shown for Liverpool/City).

 

[Cerpin]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with turning Welbeck into a versatile player who can be a great squad player in the future.

In all fairness there is a good chance Fergie thought he would never make it as the lead goalscorer in a top class team, so thought the best way for him to grow to be an asset to United was if he could perform well in 3-4 positions. He may have thought "what's better: him being a backup striker that only plays when our World Class striker is injured, or someone who plays well for 40 games a season in a variety of positions."

If this was Fergie's thought process then I agree 100%. Not everyone can be the World Class goalscorer that is required at a top team (see how not having one has affected Arsenal/Chelsea vs how a top one has shown for Liverpool/City).

Could be. But then again, he also compared him to Thierry Henry when he was younger. Although that might just have been to build up his confidence -- who knows.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with turning Welbeck into a versatile player who can be a great squad player in the future.

In all fairness there is a good chance Fergie thought he would never make it as the lead goalscorer in a top class team, so thought the best way for him to grow to be an asset to United was if he could perform well in 3-4 positions. He may have thought "what's better: him being a backup striker that only plays when our World Class striker is injured, or someone who plays well for 40 games a season in a variety of positions."

If this was Fergie's thought process then I agree 100%. Not everyone can be the World Class goalscorer that is required at a top team (see how not having one has affected Arsenal/Chelsea vs how a top one has shown for Liverpool/City).

I agree. The likelihood of anyone reaching the level of Rooney/Van Persie is slim. And if it should transpire that Welbeck doesn't have it in him to become a world class striker that shouldn't be viewed as a failure. A versatile attacker/squad player will always come in handy. And the fact that he's a local lad is a good thing in that respect. Having a home grown player around for such purposes is an asset to any club - and a local lad is much likelier to be willing to play just that role.

 

[adexkola]

I've said it before. His problem is he plays in a position where there is no margin for error. We can't spend 2-3 years bedding him into being a 20 goal a season striker, because for those 2-3 years it'll prove costly. RVP last year was a prime example of why a team needs a solid World Class goalscorer, likewise Rooney 11/12 and Ronaldo 07/08.

A team with Welbeck up front every single game would not win the League the vast majority of the time, which is true of almost every young striker. This is why as a club we should have sent him out on loan for the last 2 seasons. Lukaku is 2.5 years younger than Welbeck and is a better centre forward. Not because he is more talented, but because he has played 80% of minutes over the last 2 seasons in his preferred position and so has vastly improved all attributes required in that position.

As a club we've decided that turning Welbeck into a good utility player who can play well in 2-3 positions is more preferable than sending him on loan for a few years and turning him into a great centre forward.

And who could blame him if he left under this scenario?

 

[dirkey]

Looking at Muller's first full season at Bayern Munich, his scoring record was 19 goals in 52 appearances. In Welbeck's first season, Welbeck got 12 in 39 appearances. If anything, Welbeck showed himself to be more clinical than Muller was, and Welbeck even played out wide a few times for us in his first full season. Comparing both to Wayne Rooney's first full season at Man. Utd. (keep in mind he had full seasons at Everton, before this), Rooney scored 17 goals in 43 appearances. Young forwards playing their first full seasons rarely are clinical at the top level and don't really show signs of a predator/clinical goalscorer until they go through at least 2-3 full seasons as a forward, normally (from what I've seen).



If you continue to see him like this, then fair enough. I don't see him as clumsy as he used to be from the 2008/09 season to the 2011/12 season. He's really improved on his ball control and dribbling and rarely falls down/loses the ball clumsily like he used to. His decision-making has also improved, but that has some ways to go for him in terms of his positioning and movement.



When compared to other young forwards who were at a state similar to him, then no. Rooney got tons of appearances for Everton and Man. Utd. since his wonder goal against Arsenal in the 2001/02 season. van Persie was a regular for Arsenal since the age of 20 even when he's suffered several injuries in his time, there. Muller had 52 appearances in his first full season at the age of 20, and since then, has been a regular fixture at Bayern Munich. Henry was a regular for Monaco since the age of 19. Looking at world class forwards of today, many of them have played regularly as a forward since the age of 18/19 for smaller clubs at lower-level leagues. Compare them to Welbeck who didn't get his first full season until the age of 20. Before that, he was playing out wide more often than up front for Sunderland and Man. Utd's first team.

In the end, all of this has resulted in Welbeck being 3rd choice behind Rooney and van Persie. He's had two seasons, so far, where he's played up front more regularly than he has out wide. Given how other great forwards have done in their third season as a forward, I'd expect Danny Welbeck to show more improvement and start to become a more key figure if given the chance to play more of a goalscoring role next season (whether from out wide like Muller or up front). It all depends on what the new manager wants, though. Regardless, Welbeck hasn't been able to progress to what he could have been due to the circumstances I have previously described in this thread, and this will make it more important for him to prove himself to the new manager, next season.

I still think Welbeck can make it here as a first-team player if given the chances to do so. If he doesn't show improvement, next season, then I'll realise that he can't make it here. Until then, we've got to wait and see.

On point 2&4 here, you say that Rooney, Muller, Henry etc got loads of games when they were young. Do you think Welbeck deserved them at that age? Do you think he was as good as those players at that age? Because judging by you also calling him clumsy, I'm thinking no.

So he hasn't deserved as many games as them as of yet. He's also currently not as good as the players we have up there, also not as good as they were at similar ages, so I don't feel he deserves to start now.

You mention world class strikers. That's exactly it, world class strikers generally show that they have the ability to lead the line from a young age. World class strikers is a bracket that Danny Welbeck simply does not belong to! That's the main point in my opinion - you expect that Welbeck will push on, just because he's played up front. I don't expect that in the slightest. I think managers judge what they have and decide whether the player is good enough / has the potential to start him up front. There's a reason our managers haven't been doing that with Welbeck.

As I said, I'm unfamiliar with Muller and I don't like just to go on stats. I see Welbecks 12 in 39, if I read that in isolation I might think he was a pretty good striker, which, having watched him for years now, I simply don't.

 

[dirkey]

Yeah, you're right. Rooney was clearly the more eye-catching talent at the same age, so it's fair enough that he was given more games.

I disagree about Rooney being better in all facets of the game. To me, Welbeck is faster, more likely to beat a man these days, more athletic, and better in the air (although Rooney is better at placing the ball with his head). They're both hard-working with an inconsistent touch, while Rooney is, as you say, a better finisher, a better passer (long and short -- although Danny's link-up play is excellent at times), more creative, better set pieces, and a better distance-shooter. But yeah, I'm a big Welbeck-fan, no doubt. I mentioned it a few times in the Newbs: his combination of pace, power, and work-rate is something quite unique in football.
.

I agree with you that it is, it really is unique. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Danny to leave, and I think he's an excellent 3rd choice striker to have. But as a club, I don't believe we should be putting him as our number 1, as i don't think he's a good enough finisher. And this is nothing to do with the amount of games he's player, I just don't think he's a natural born goal scorer. This is where all these debates that I chimed into came from - someone calling him a clinical finisher. Which I think most people would agree? Be it because he hasn't had enough games or not, the fact is, he's not a clinical finisher. Which is what we need.

You're also right about Welbeck being better at those things...though I'd probably dispute in the air. Maybe he's better in that he has more height and can reach more balls, but I think Rooney is far more effective when he does get his head on the ball.

 

[finneh]

And who could blame him if he left under this scenario?

Absolutely no-one. It depends whether he wants to be the main man at a club like Everton or a squad player who wins medals at a club like United. Bearing in mind also that being a key man at Everton might earn him £50-60k a week, whereas a great squad player could earn £100k+ at United.

History would suggest if he is remunerated well and plays a sufficient number of games he will be quite happy with a squad role.

 

[mazhar13]

On point 2&4 here, you say that Rooney, Muller, Henry etc got loads of games when they were young. Do you think Welbeck deserved them at that age? Do you think he was as good as those players at that age? Because judging by you also calling him clumsy, I'm thinking no.

So he hasn't deserved as many games as them as of yet. He's also currently not as good as the players we have up there, also not as good as they were at similar ages, so I don't feel he deserves to start now.

You mention world class strikers. That's exactly it, world class strikers generally show that they have the ability to lead the line from a young age. World class strikers is a bracket that Danny Welbeck simply does not belong to! That's the main point in my opinion - you expect that Welbeck will push on, just because he's played up front. I don't expect that in the slightest. I think managers judge what they have and decide whether the player is good enough / has the potential to start him up front. There's a reason our managers haven't been doing that with Welbeck.

As I said, I'm unfamiliar with Muller and I don't like just to go on stats. I see Welbecks 12 in 39, if I read that in isolation I might think he was a pretty good striker, which, having watched him for years now, I simply don't.

The likes of Henry, Rooney, Diego Costa, Lewandowski, etc., didn't have to deal with world class players playing ahead of them. Most of them at their smaller clubs have had to deal with average talents ahead of them.

For example, when Rooney was getting starts at Everton, he was competing against Duncan Ferguson, Thomas Radzinski, and Kevin Campbell, none of whom are world class! Welbeck, on the other hand, had to deal with Rooney, Berbatov, Chicharito, and van Persie. That's 3 world class forwards he's had to deal with; 4 established internationals ahead of him. Even then, Welbeck got his chance once Chicharito was unavailable to play early during the 2011/12 season, and he delivered in those games, scoring goals regularly.

The only other world class forward of today who's had to deal with world class players ahead of him when he was coming up was Thomas Muller. He was given his chance by van Gaal ahead of the likes of Klose, Toni, Olic, and Gomez, all of whom were established internationals. He was given his chance, and van Gaal made sure that no one came in his way.

One thing that irks me is that you're ignoring Welbeck's constant improvement in all parts of his game. He hasn't stalled in any way. He was clumsy as a youngster as he had to deal with his quickly-growing legs. Now, he has overcome that obstacle and is showing how skilled he is, on the ball. He would make some bad decisions as a youngster. Now, he's matured and is making better decisions than he was, before. His movement and positioning have also improved, massively, but he still has to improve on that to become a key member of our squad.

In the end, I'm just telling you why I think Welbeck can become a key member of our squad (not necessarily a main starter but an important player). If you think otherwise, let's just agree to disagree. We've said all we could about this guy, and it's obvious that you don't rate him and I do. That's fair enough, and I'll end this here unless you have anything new to input to this discussion .

 

[dirkey]

One thing that irks me is that you're ignoring Welbeck's constant improvement in all parts of his game. He hasn't stalled in any way. He was clumsy as a youngster as he had to deal with his quickly-growing legs. Now, he has overcome that obstacle and is showing how skilled he is, on the ball. He would make some bad decisions as a youngster. Now, he's matured and is making better decisions than he was, before. His movement and positioning have also improved, massively, but he still has to improve on that to become a key member of our squad.

In the end, I'm just telling you why I think Welbeck can become a key member of our squad (not necessarily a main starter but an important player). If you think otherwise, let's just agree to disagree. We've said all we could about this guy, and it's obvious that you don't rate him and I do. That's fair enough, and I'll end this here unless you have anything new to input to this discussion .

Nothing new to input. You make good points - can I just say, I'm not ignoring the improvements he has made, not in the slightest. He has come on quite a lot since his early days. As I've said numerous times, this has all come about after someone called Welbeck clinical. That's the main point I completely disagree with, I don't think he's clinical. He is getting better, and I don't want him to leave. I just don't think he should be put in ahead of the other players - you even said it yourself, they're world class, he's not.

I personally don't think he will ever become world class. But what do I know! Maybe Louis will come in, see something in him, develop him into that world class talent. Please God let him do so!

 

[mazhar13]

As I've said numerous times, this has all come about after someone called Welbeck clinical. That's the main point I completely disagree with, I don't think he's clinical. He is getting better, and I don't want him to leave. I just don't think he should be put in ahead of the other players - you even said it yourself, they're world class, he's not.

Ah, yes, sorry for ignoring that part, myself.

In my view in terms of whether he's clinical or not, I don't know, myself, whether he is actually clinical or not. He's played out wide half of the time and then through the middle half of the time, this season. In his first season, he scored goals at a good rate at the start of the season before starting to miss chances, more. In his second season, he played out wide almost all of the time. Again, we'll have to see how he is under van Gaal before judging his finishing.

 

[dirkey]

Ah, yes, sorry for ignoring that part, myself.

In my view in terms of whether he's clinical or not, I don't know, myself, whether he is actually clinical or not. He's played out wide half of the time and then through the middle half of the time, this season. In his first season, he scored goals at a good rate at the start of the season before starting to miss chances, more. In his second season, he played out wide almost all of the time. Again, we'll have to see how he is under van Gaal before judging his finishing.

And if there's one man I'd trust to get it out of him it's Louis. Fingers crossed he does it with Danny or Tom or whoever!

 

[Cerpin]

I agree with you that it is, it really is unique. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Danny to leave, and I think he's an excellent 3rd choice striker to have. But as a club, I don't believe we should be putting him as our number 1, as i don't think he's a good enough finisher. And this is nothing to do with the amount of games he's player, I just don't think he's a natural born goal scorer. This is where all these debates that I chimed into came from - someone calling him a clinical finisher. Which I think most people would agree? Be it because he hasn't had enough games or not, the fact is, he's not a clinical finisher. Which is what we need.

You're also right about Welbeck being better at those things...though I'd probably dispute in the air. Maybe he's better in that he has more height and can reach more balls, but I think Rooney is far more effective when he does get his head on the ball.

Aye, I'd agree that he's not the most clinical of strikers -- probably his biggest weakness. But I think that's something that will improve with more game-time as a striker -- although I'd say that there's a certain innateness to that particular quality.

I agree with your second part. Welbeck is superior insofar that he's taller and has a better leap, but Rooney has quite brilliant heading technique.

 

[JSMHE]

Welbeck is our most improved player in 2013/2014. People just don't realise something that he's still 23 years old and he has a long way to go to get even better as long as he gets enough chance. People are just expecting him too much by comparing him with RVP, Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale stats when they were at the same age. It doesn't matter if Welbeck only score 12 or 10 goals when he was 21 or 23 years old while RVP, Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale and etc score more goals. Welbeck development might a bit slower. This guy will always get better and better. You never know that next season he might score 13 goals, the following season will be 15 goals, the next one will be 18, the next one will be 20 and so on. Last season he only scored 2 goals but this season he scored 10 goals which mean he can still improved and gets better especially he's still 23 years old.

 

[dirkey]

Welbeck is our most improved player in 2013/2014. People just don't realise something that he's still 23 years old and he has a long way to go to get even better as long as he gets enough chance. People are just expecting him too much by comparing him with RVP, Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale stats when they were at the same age. It doesn't matter if Welbeck only score 12 or 10 goals when he was 21 or 23 years old while RVP, Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale and etc score more goals. Welbeck development might a bit slower. This guy will always get better and better. You never know that next season he might score 13 goals, the following season will be 15 goals, the next one will be 18, the next one will be 20 and so on. Last season he only scored 2 goals but this season he scored 10 goals which mean he can still improved and gets better especially he's still 23 years old.

We compare him to those players because that is the class and standard of player we should be after, not pinning our hopes on that might score 20 goals by the time he's 27 according to your hopeful projections. Nobody is saying he's not improving. But those players you list are who we should be after. Or at least that level of player.

 

[dirkey]

We compare him to those players because that is the class and standard of player we should be after, not pinning our hopes on that might score 20 goals by the time he's 27 according to your hopeful projections. Nobody is saying he's not improving. But those players you list are who we should be after. Or at least that level of player.

Excuse the fact there are words missing. Replying using my rather crappy phone and it's driving me a tad crazy. Hopefully ye get the gist.

 

[JSMHE]

We compare him to those players because that is the class and standard of player we should be after, not pinning our hopes on that might score 20 goals by the time he's 27 according to your hopeful projections. Nobody is saying he's not improving. But those players you list are who we should be after. Or at least that level of player.

Players in my list are considered as rare players. Players which really hard too be found or exist every year. And obviously not easy to sign them.
There is no 100 Messi. There is no 10 Scholes or Giggs or Ronaldo.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Welbeck is our most improved player in 2013/2014. People just don't realise something that he's still 23 years old and he has a long way to go to get even better as long as he gets enough chance. People are just expecting him too much by comparing him with RVP, Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale stats when they were at the same age. It doesn't matter if Welbeck only score 12 or 10 goals when he was 21 or 23 years old while RVP, Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney or Bale and etc score more goals. Welbeck development might a bit slower. This guy will always get better and better. You never know that next season he might score 13 goals, the following season will be 15 goals, the next one will be 18, the next one will be 20 and so on. Last season he only scored 2 goals but this season he scored 10 goals which mean he can still improved and gets better especially he's still 23 years old.

He had to improve, he had a worse set of performance stats for a striker than Gary Birtles during his time at United - still, I look forward to him exploding into action in the world cup and finally making his mark next season as a key game shaper and match winner - I get the feeling that if he doesn't mature & improve significantly next season he is destined for a Leicester or Hull type team

 

[JSMHE]

He had to improve, he had a worse set of performance stats for a striker than Gary Birtles during his time at United - still, I look forward to him exploding into action in the world cup and finally making his mark next season as a key game shaper and match winner - I get the feeling that if he doesn't mature & improve significantly next season he is destined for a Leicester or Hull type team

 

[El-Manos]

Great squad player to have but I personally do not see him establishing himself as a key player for us any time soon, he could prove me wrong though. Great on the ball but his lack of composure and quality in the box is severely worrying.

 

[mazhar13]

He had to improve, he had a worse set of performance stats for a striker than Gary Birtles during his time at United - still, I look forward to him exploding into action in the world cup and finally making his mark next season as a key game shaper and match winner - I get the feeling that if he doesn't mature & improve significantly next season he is destined for a Leicester or Hull type team

It seems as if you hate Welbeck so much that you have to exaggerate things to an extreme. You can't compare Welbeck to Birtles. Welbeck already has a much better scoring record than Birtles! Heck, Welbeck did better scoring goals as a winger than Birtles did as a centre forward!

Then, to go on and suggest he would suit Leicester or Hull City...he's much better than the likes of Fryatt, Jelavic, Long, etc.

I'd like to know what you hate about Welbeck so much that you'd make up lies to make him look bad.

 

[Plugsy]

It seems as if you hate Welbeck so much that you have to exaggerate things to an extreme. You can't compare Welbeck to Birtles. Welbeck already has a much better scoring record than Birtles! Heck, Welbeck did better scoring goals as a winger than Birtles did as a centre forward!

Then, to go on and suggest he would suit Leicester or Hull City...he's much better than the likes of Fryatt, Jelavic, Long, etc.

I'd like to know what you hate about Welbeck so much that you'd make up lies to make him look bad.

Before this season his goalscorering record for us was worse than Gary Birtles.