The difference is they got their chances when options were limited in those positions and they proved themselves better then the rest. Welbeck like others have said, is turning 24 and isn't exactly young, and we have van Persie and Wayne Rooney, and Javier Hernandez too all here who as strikers are all better players (or just better goalscorer in Hernandez's case). Why does welbeck deserve to start all season up front, ahead of Rooney or van Persie? Nobody in their right mind would offload them two to make welbeck first choice anyway do it's never going to happen.
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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No, I think Welbeck should be playing regularly because I see he has the potential and the tools to be a prolific complete forward for Manchester United. I brought up Ronaldo and Rooney to further highlight the point that we've always given chances to "youth" with promise. You won't hear me asking for Cleverly to start.
@bosnian_red He may not have done enought to start ahead of Rooney or Van Persie, and I don't think it will happen. Which is why if he has any sense, he will leave. Pains me to say it, but staying here isn't helping anyone.
If you do even play him in the deep-forward/provider role the competition is arguably tougher. If you think about players who are potentially what you might call 'link-up' players we have Mata, Kagawa, Rooney to an extent then there's Januzaj someone who is young and needs game time.
[QUOTE="Plugsy, post: 15673256, member: 81046"]But Rooney rarely plays every game as an out and out striker. This idea that where you start is where you play doesn't hold true any more. Rooney starts up front but very often plays significant parts of the game holding on the wing or deeper. Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Kanchleskis all have a better record in their first three full seasons with us.
It's an okay return for an attacking midfielder but when you consider how much he does get a chance to play up front during games it isn't great. I certainly don't know where the insistence he'll suddenly more than double his average overnight comes from. I think that's crackers.
Mata's goal to games ratio for us is nearly twice as good and he rarely if ever gets any time as a 'striker' in games. In fact since Mata has been in England his goal scoring record is better. It's not to criticise Welbeck per se but he simply won't become someone who scores 20 goals a year, it's not within him to do that. His talents lie elsewhere and other than holding up the ball I don't know if his talents outshine what we have elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Yes that was my point, I was making reference to the fact when he did (play as an out and out striker), he scored a lot more goals.
On thing about comparing Rooney and Welbeck though is that Rooney is not stuck out wide as often and most of our play through the middle goes through Rooney (this season) so comparing the two is a bit much.
The bit about him scoring more or doubling his average overnight, is in direct relation to the fact that when Rooney and RVP were out he scored 6 goals in 7 games? Or was it 5 in 6? Not sure however that is where that comes from, there is evidence to support it.
It makes a difference when you are played as a Striker (if you are a Striker), lets take Daniel Sturridge for instance, again played as a wide forward at Chelsea however when at Bolton and Liverpool is deployed as an Striker and you see the difference. Also Welbeck is not Rooney that is a bit much to ask for him to be able to contribute as much when not played in his natural position, not all players can do what Rooney does in that respect.
Mata again is more or less deployed through the middle, and Mata at Chelsea again played in the no10 role didn't have any defensive responsibilities (just ask Mou). In contrast when Mata joined United and started on the right he didn't really achieve much did he?
It's an okay return for an attacking midfielder but when you consider how much he does get a chance to play up front during games it isn't great. I certainly don't know where the insistence he'll suddenly more than double his average overnight comes from. I think that's crackers.
Mata's goal to games ratio for us is nearly twice as good and he rarely if ever gets any time as a 'striker' in games. In fact since Mata has been in England his goal scoring record is better. It's not to criticise Welbeck per se but he simply won't become someone who scores 20 goals a year, it's not within him to do that. His talents lie elsewhere and other than holding up the ball I don't know if his talents outshine what we have elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Yes that was my point, I was making reference to the fact when he did (play as an out and out striker), he scored a lot more goals.
On thing about comparing Rooney and Welbeck though is that Rooney is not stuck out wide as often and most of our play through the middle goes through Rooney (this season) so comparing the two is a bit much.
The bit about him scoring more or doubling his average overnight, is in direct relation to the fact that when Rooney and RVP were out he scored 6 goals in 7 games? Or was it 5 in 6? Not sure however that is where that comes from, there is evidence to support it.
It makes a difference when you are played as a Striker (if you are a Striker), lets take Daniel Sturridge for instance, again played as a wide forward at Chelsea however when at Bolton and Liverpool is deployed as an Striker and you see the difference. Also Welbeck is not Rooney that is a bit much to ask for him to be able to contribute as much when not played in his natural position, not all players can do what Rooney does in that respect.
Mata again is more or less deployed through the middle, and Mata at Chelsea again played in the no10 role didn't have any defensive responsibilities (just ask Mou). In contrast when Mata joined United and started on the right he didn't really achieve much did he?
Well at least mental illness hasn't set in
But I think you put the cart before the horse. You play your way into the side, you shouldn't get a run in it on the off-chance you might come good. I really do think it's perhaps time to retire words like youth and potential when it comes to Welbeck. Of course at 23/24 he doesn't have to be the complete player but he should be most of the way there by now. If in five years time we're speaking about Januzaj's 'potential if he gets the chance' he'd most likely have woefully under-delivered.
Agreed. We'd all love for him to turn into a great player here but he won't get the proper chances to develop as a striker here. The last hope for him is he makes his name as like a wide forward on the left when van gaal comes, because he won't become a striker ahead of van Persie especially with van gaal here. So it's either he accepts being a squad player which he won't, or move on to a different club sadly.
So you want him to develop as a top striker...but not with us. Brilliant logic.
I'm saying he can't do it with us, because he's not better then Rooney or van Persie so he won't get the chances. If he was 3 years younger or so it'd be perfect to take over, but he's not. He's turning 24 and wants to be a starter now as evidenced by wanting to leave this season despite playing plenty of games and a decent amount of big games. Can you or anyone justify getting rid of Rooney and van Persie to make welbeck our first choice striker, despite the fact he's never scored more then 12 goals in a season for us, and that was 2 seasons ago?
He scored fourteen in his breakthrough.
He won't develop as a top striker with us. Not this way.
But its a stupid thing to say. Because what are we gonna do, buy him back...
What if LvG wants to sell Chicarito and sees Welbeck as his 2nd best striker option behind RvP or sees him in a role Pedro plays at Barca? He might prefer Rooney, but he might as well prefer Welbeck and want to improve him because he is still very young and the talent is clearly there. We'll see but I have the feeling LvG will enjoy having him around.
That's why I said it could well be his last chance to become a starter with us as a wide forward under van gaal. Also even being second choice up top might not be enough, considering we won't have European football so won't have a need to rotate. It'll be the main players starting every week pretty much and it'll just be 1 game a week. That's something a lot of people seem to overlook when saying they don't want Europa league. We have a huge squad and loads of players who will hardly get any time on the pitch now because of the lack of a European competition.
No, he scored 12 goals in 11/12, 2 goals last season and 10 this season.
I don't think Danny has what it takes to be the number one striker at United. I know we'd all love it, as he's a local lad, but I'm my opinion, based on what I've seen of him, he's never going to be up there in ability with the likes of Rooney or rvp, which is the level we should aspire to.
This is true. Next season will be a big season for Welbeck to step up and prove himself to the new manager.
On the bolded part, I wouldn't automatically assume that. He's been injured for quite a bit of time every season except during 2011-2013. Every other time, he's had an injury-marred time. Plus, van Persie's performances worsen during the second half of the season until the last few matches of the season when he suddenly gets back to his best.
Rooney isn't always free of injuries, either. Rooney's often injured during the winter period and also has periods every season where he's off form.
Welbeck will definitely get his chances up front, and he has to prove himself, next season, in order to develop into a great player. Otherwise, playing as a wide forward a la Pedro wouldn't be too bad for him, too.
I think under a new manager that this coming season be Welbecks last season with United.
In fact, I think him and Hernandez will be lucky to still be at the club next season.
In fact, I think him and Hernandez will be lucky to still be at the club next season.
If we get another striker I can see Hernandez going. I'd retain Welbeck has a rotation option as he's reasonably versatile. You can use him as cover for a couple of positions.
He did play his way into the side though, he was performing better than any of our strikers at one stage but still got dropped.Well at least mental illness hasn't set in
But I think you put the cart before the horse. You play your way into the side, you shouldn't get a run in it on the off-chance you might come good. I really do think it's perhaps time to retire words like youth and potential when it comes to Welbeck. Of course at 23/24 he doesn't have to be the complete player but he should be most of the way there by now. If in five years time we're speaking about Januzaj's 'potential if he gets the chance' he'd most likely have woefully under-delivered.
I have a feeling he will do very well under LVG.
The next Muller.
if he doesn't improve next year we need to let him go. We can't keep underperforming players just because they are local lads and academy products. He has been playing top level football for too long. We are past the era were Fergie's brilliance can mask our squad's failings.
Aside from his one good spell of form during the winter, he really hasn't done anything special. He won't be a prolific striker like some claim. You can spot the prolific strikers in the late teens. Closing in on 24 and he isn't exactly lighting it up. I think with him because he is the local lad a lot of people want him to succeed so bad that it clouds their judgement and can't be impartial when assessing his talent. In the pecking order he switches between 3rd and 4th choice behind 2 really great strikers in Van Persie and Rooney who let's face he won't unseat, and Hernandez who has had almost a similar level of production this season in all comps in goals and assists with perhaps 1/3 less playing time than Welbeck. He is a good squad player due to his versatility but he will never be the man leading the line.
I don't think we necessarily need to let him go. I don't think he'll ever be world class or able to lead the line on his own long-term, but he's certainly got some ability to be a squad player and his versatility helps him out on that as well. Most top sides have some players who are good and useful, even if not world class, such as Fletcher who's been here for all of his career, and players like O'Shea who was useful for us for a number of years.
I think he'll be world class under LvG; out of his comfort zone (which seems like he was, under Fergie), and under guidance of good manager.
I actually think he isn't one of the "under performers" in the squad. He played quite well when given a run in his natural position. Was one of our best players over both Bayern legs too.
He was unjustly dropped too, he should still have been playing.
@bosnian_red When I had a bit of a go at you before, this is what I was referring to. This lazy and pointless drivel that seems to plague genuine discussion. So I do apologise if I caused any personal offence to you.
If the club wants to go with four strikers next season are you disappointed if Welbeck takes the fourth? Assuming RVP and WR stay and are the first two and then I would assume Chich if he stays is the second. I still think even 23/24 isn't the end of a United apprenticeship. He can still have a role and grow and the above have maybe 4/5 years at the elite level playing as many games as possible and you don't see Welbeck being a good backup piece to have along the way?
I think 23/24 is the new 'broke through at 18'. Personally, it may sound silly but I think a far to little patience is being shown in this situation.
I'd be delighted if he'd be content with being even only 3rd choice. The thing is though, that this season he wasn't content with the amount he played and probably being out of position on the wing often, and so was ready to leave the club. And he played a decent amount this season. I'm not saying it for us, I'm saying for Welbeck. He's already shown that he isn't ready to accept just a squad player role, and even though he's still pretty young, he wants to be starting as a striker clearly. He won't get that here at United. If he's fine with being behind Rooney and Van Persie in the pecking order and occasionally getting games around there then fine, better for us. Given that we won't have anything but the league to play for though, there won't be much rotation and so I just can't see him getting many games in his preferred position, and he definitely won't get as many games as he did this season overall, unless he cements himself as a starter. Not being in a european competition is screwing him and a few others over a bit, and as a result we might lose them.
OK how is saying the club should consider letting go a striker who still regularly misses sitters after 5 years "lazy, pointless drivel that plagues genuine discussion"? If you don't agree with something just say so and give an alternative argument. You have a very high opinion of yourself. This is an internet forum not a think tank.
I can understand people thinking he's unlikely to displace Rooney and RVP, but why anyone would want him to leave the club is beyond me. If anyone thinks we'll get a better 3rd/4th choice striker if he leaves, they are very much mistaken.
He's been good when he's been given opportunities up front this season, and has been pretty clinical. He'll really benefit from, hopefully, getting some decent service from the midfield next season. Not all 23 year old strikers are the finished article, the lack of patience for a player who has come through the academy and has regularly been played out of position is quite astounding.
Consider Drogba at 23 years of age, he was playing in the French league, scoring and playing less than Danny. Not saying Welbeck will go on to be as good, but the raw materials are definitely there. His finishing is something that can definitely be improved, we know he's capable, he just needs to start doing it consistently. He won't do that unless he gets a run in the team when his performances merit it though.
He's been good when he's been given opportunities up front this season, and has been pretty clinical. He'll really benefit from, hopefully, getting some decent service from the midfield next season. Not all 23 year old strikers are the finished article, the lack of patience for a player who has come through the academy and has regularly been played out of position is quite astounding.
Consider Drogba at 23 years of age, he was playing in the French league, scoring and playing less than Danny. Not saying Welbeck will go on to be as good, but the raw materials are definitely there. His finishing is something that can definitely be improved, we know he's capable, he just needs to start doing it consistently. He won't do that unless he gets a run in the team when his performances merit it though.
Clinical is not a word for Danny I'm afraid. Give him an instinctive effort and he'll do something good more often than not. Give him time and he'll fudge it up more often than not, often in spectacular fashion. He is most definitely not clinical.
It's not about us wanting him to leave which nobody does. We aren't in any European competitions next season, meaning we'll have 1 game a week. No need to rotate. Welbeck, at best, is our third choice striker. This season despite playing pretty often on the wing he wanted a transfer as he's as not first choice. What are his chances next season to get more games now that we won't be in any European competition and his status in the dquad isn't very different? What games will he start up front? Basically only when rvp and Rooney are both injured.
He's the one that will look to leave if he can't make the left wing spot his own, and thus far what he's shown is that he's not that good on the wing.
He's pretty decent there for England, who play a 4-3-3 formation. If played correctly, in the right system, I reckon he could rack up 10-15 goals as an inverted left winger.
If he could then fair enough. Pretty decent for England is still far away from what united should be aiming for to be fair. Januzaj is getting more experienced and will probably become first choice next season, and also we still have mata and Rooney to fit in somewhere with Rvp being the striker. We'll see but he's just not as good as our other options.
He was getting more then enough games before but now we only have the premier league to worry about so we won't be rotating players and we won't need nearly as many squad players as we currently have. In fact if we don't get rid of a decent amount of them, there will be plenty of unhappy players next season because of a lack of games, and welbeck will likely be part of that.
how often does welbeck get a chance to play? how many games does he get on the trott? hes started 9 games in the league all season, thats disappointing for a player whos been probably our best player against world class opposition like madrid or bayern and a player who needs games under his belt to improve. if LVG does employ a 4-3-3, he might just prefer welbeck to rooney who doesnt like playing on the wing. if he gets enough games, theres no reason he cant improve as a player. in my opinon, hes perfect for a 4-3-3 system.
Did you forget the strikes against Swansea, Tottenham, West Ham, and West Brom? Those weren't instinctive, in my view. He has shown that he can finish when given time to think. He needs to get into more goalscoring positions, himself. I feel like his positioning isn't the best, at times, and I think playing on the left wing has hurt his striker's instinct quite a bit, IMO.
He is soon to be 24 years old, at this point he should be working on the smaller things in his game, not try to develop a huge amount. He struggles with positioning, body control, first touch, finishing and anticipation (movement in the box mainly, never starts a run before the pass is made and fail to attack dangerous space). Take a look at our players like RVP, Rooney and Mata, then think of Welbeck, he has so much less quality and it's so much it just can't be made up for at this point. Look at a player like Januzaj that is five years younger, he has far less to improve on and much better at most aspects of the game already.
This sounds very negative, but I actually would not mind if he stays. He is local and he would be ok as fourth or maybe even third choice as a forward. He will also find it harder to get games, because we will buy new players and they will be great players I suspect. We will also have to judge him against our aims as a club, would we achive our goals of winning the PL and CL with him as a trusted forward? Compared to the players that elevate the top clubs to the top of Europe often thend to be a lot better than him or has one or two extreme qualities that he just don't have at this point.
What is a big concern is that he has actually expressed, trough his agent, that he wants to leave to get more football. Then he will just have to move on for me because his focus is off and that is not the attitude he should have if he wants to improve and make it big at United.
To think he will become world class, when we argue if RVP, Rooney and Mata is at that level is more a dream than a serious objective judgment of the player. He is far from what I hoped for after his youth career and his few appearances as a 17/18 year old. He is sadly not top class at anything, but I still believe he can improve and be a decent squad player. But, then he have to put his head down and work, not feel that he deserve to play before players like RVP and Rooney at this point, that should not be his focus at this point.
Nope. I didn't forget those. That's why I said more often than not. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the numerous times he was clear on goal with time to think and made a balls of it. He's a decent squad player but that's all, and he thinks he should be first choice when he clearly shouldn't. And scoring a few goals doesn't make him clinical. His scoring record is patchy at best, and he gets enough chances that it should be better.
Try mentioning it, this season there wasn't many. Hernandez, Rooney and Van Persie all missed similar, if not more clear cut opportunities. But continue on with the narrative.
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