Cleverley must be laughing his arse off at the fans who petitioned to have him removed from the England team. Even Cleverley would admit he had a poor season, but to have a petition to have him removed from the England team was over the top. Glad that the rest of the England squad covered themselves in glory.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Good post. I agree completly.
Seriously cannot understand the logic of people who think selling Cleverley to Arsenal would be a good idea. It's a ridiculous idea. Anderson, Fellaini and Fletcher (unfortunately) should be candidates to leave before Cleverley. We definitely need a couple of midfield signings but Cleverley is definitely good enough to stay here as a squad player and I'd be willing to bet that he'd look far better under the tutelage of LvG. There is a good player in there and we have all seen it in fits and bursts before.
As for those Arsenal fans on twitter, I bet they're the same fans who were abusing Aaron Ramsey and begging Wenger to sell him the season before last. Their judgement is hardly anything to be respected.
As for those Arsenal fans on twitter, I bet they're the same fans who were abusing Aaron Ramsey and begging Wenger to sell him the season before last. Their judgement is hardly anything to be respected.
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Yeah, the scapegoating of Cleverley has been obnoxious to say the least.
He has the potential to impress under a coach like Van Gaal. Quick, tidy player at his best, definitely very useful.
He has the potential to impress under a coach like Van Gaal. Quick, tidy player at his best, definitely very useful.
Have to agree. Like Valencia will benefit from a new start.....
That's a very big possibility but I am not sure that it tells anything about the quality of those two players (as opposed to the lack of quality English midfielders).
As someone said in the Unpopular Opinions thread, I think Cleverley will benefit from the positive attacking philosophy from van Gaal. Along with Carrick, I think Cleverley was one of the worst sufferers from the David Moyes era. Not saying that takes the blame off of him, but it clearly didn't do him any service.
Under the new expanded tournament, England can hardly fail to qualify. But I agree with the sentiment. Henderson is a decent top half PL player but nothing more. I'm not even sure Cleverley is at that level based on the last 12 months. It is definitely now or never for Tom next season under LVG if he is not to be sent with a one way ticket to Sunderland.
My problem is the constant waiting for players like Cleverley to 'come good'. I don't think he's of any particularly high standard to prevent, theoretically, the next young thing from emerging from the academy. People have too much patience sometimes and we really, really shouldn't have to wait until a player is balls-deep into his mid 20s before accepting that maybe it hasn't worked out. We're quite bad at that, I think, not just at this club but English football as a whole. There should be a much faster turnaround of young player. Get someone in, give them a season or two at top level and then make an assessment. Keep if good, move on if not and bring next generation through. Instead we seem to have this attitude of 'he might come good' and I fear maybe that hampers the chances of others beneath them.
Maybe this is part of the reason why we don't develop that much any more in this country, because we're too afraid to make an assessment and instead go on far longer than we should hoping there'll be this sudden and dramatic burst of improvement from absolutely nowhere.
Maybe this is part of the reason why we don't develop that much any more in this country, because we're too afraid to make an assessment and instead go on far longer than we should hoping there'll be this sudden and dramatic burst of improvement from absolutely nowhere.
I doubt that many are asking for him to become one of the first names on the team sheet. The majority of posters here are suggesting that he is kept as a squad option and that he'll be better under van Gaal than he was under Moyes. Even under Sir Alex, he was not bad even in a role that he's not best at (until towards the end of the season when he dipped in form).
In terms of giving players too much time, I don't see that happen frequently. More often than not, young players are quickly let go of if they have no chance of making the first team. I remember when players like Cole, Tunnicliffe, and Brady were being touted as having the ability to make the first team, but all 3 left the club. Man. Utd. is ruthless with their young players which is why we've only had Cleverley, Welbeck, and Evans make it up out of many of the British-born players through our club.
In light of Valencia's contract extension, we might soon know the state of play with Cleverley, as he only has a year left on his current deal too.
I think this is a load of rubbish. If anything young players need to be given more of a chance in England. Suggesting they're given too many chances is wide off the mark. Not all young players develop at the same rate. One or two seasons may not be enough. Look at Ramsey, one season after arsenal fans were booing him and wanted him sold he's one of the PLs best players. You don't just get rid. Some players are worth persisting with and you reap the rewards sometimes.
I hope we keep Cleverley. He's a useful squad player and isn't as shit and useless as peoe on here make out.
The thing about Ramsey is that he showed the qualities he's showing now to some degree back in his first couple of years at Arsenal, back at Cardiff, and in his youth and early full international appearances. Had Arsenal gone and sold Ramsey my suspicion is that he'd have performed well enough (to his current standard or close) to make Arsenal regret it, and would have been bought again by a top four side.
In comparison Cleverley has shown nothing to indicate that had he been a 16 year old in the Championship he'd have done anything spectacular or eye catching enough to get a big move. Cleverley could play to his best, and he still wouldn't do what Ramsey does on the pitch. The raw star quality is missing.
If anything Cleverley's more comparable to Henderson. But then even Henderson plays with more confidence in himself, isn't afraid to move with the ball, and has a few more goals and assists in him. I'd take Henderson over him any day. Even in the 2012/13 season I'd have done so.
Like you say he's a useful squad player, playing against the weaker sides when the rest of the team is strong. No need to sell him provided he isn't a reason for us not spending on someone else. Because even if Van Gaal was to trust Cleverley to do the job he requires as a starter, I personally wouldn't. And even if he played to the best of his own ability, I'd always think there was someone else who could do what he does better and more.
So worth keeping, but more as a squad player than as a player to have much hope for as a starter. If he works he way back into the first team after we sign some others, fair enough.
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Elsewhere they have a much higher turnover of young players. Here a young player is still a 'young player' long past the age they would be considered young elsewhere. Mata for example is 16 months older than Cleverley yet I guaranteed 16 months ago nobody considered him 'young'.
This seems typical of the problem; what we consider 'young' is years after others expect an end product.
This seems typical of the problem; what we consider 'young' is years after others expect an end product.
That isn't true. Go back in this thread and you'll see people lauding Cleverley. He has shown his ability particularly before he got injured in 2011/12 and in 2012/13 he was a good player for us before the Madrid at home game when he seemed to run out of steam.
Articles like this we're being written about Cleverley: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/sep/07/tom-cleverley-england-no10
People talk as if he's always played with such low confidence when that simply isn't true. He's a good player who needs a bit more confidence and I needs to take a few more risks. Hopefully LvG is the man to get the best out of him.
Henderson this season hasn't shown anything better than Cleverley in 2012/13. Cleverley had confidence back then too. We were commending him for keeping up the tempo and always wanting the ball. Henderson is just playing with a bit more confidence atm. If Liverpool struggle next season it'll be a similar story.
I agree with your last paragraph.
Cleverley never had the talent of Ramsey so I wouldn't expect a similar improvement. He doesn't have the raw ability of Ramsey who looked excellent before the Shawcross injury. Ramsey's rejuvenation this year was as much a return to his previous ability as anything else.
The biggest difference though is that Ramsey - and Henderson - actually have the mentality to make these improvements. Cleverley hides on the pitch and too often shirks any responsibility for making things happen, there appears to be very little self belief or determination and it's not as if he has exceptional talent to fall back on. He's going to be 25 at the start of the season as well so a sudden burst of ability would be rare in the most determined of footballers, let alone someone like Cleverley.
The biggest difference though is that Ramsey - and Henderson - actually have the mentality to make these improvements. Cleverley hides on the pitch and too often shirks any responsibility for making things happen, there appears to be very little self belief or determination and it's not as if he has exceptional talent to fall back on. He's going to be 25 at the start of the season as well so a sudden burst of ability would be rare in the most determined of footballers, let alone someone like Cleverley.
So if I think Cleverley has shown absolutely nothing in the last year or two, but rather that he is not progressing and should at best be 4th choice for us, then it's scapegoating?
He's among the two players I think are nowhere near the quality we need, the other being Young. Fellaini - too early to judge.
However, if Cleverley comes good, great. I just don't see it happening. He's average.
He's among the two players I think are nowhere near the quality we need, the other being Young. Fellaini - too early to judge.
However, if Cleverley comes good, great. I just don't see it happening. He's average.
Yes and the problem is how long do we wait. "He'll come goodism" seems to stretch well beyond the age where any reasonable standard of expectation would have them delivering on earlier promise.
I could be wrong but it seems that speaking about players in their mid 20s as being ready to 'come good' or having 'potential' (see: Nani) is quite unique to us. Which is why I think we have too much patience. I'd give a player under 22 a couple of years and make an assessment - add something to the squad you stay, if you're at 'might come good, one day, possibly, perhaps' then you've moved on to be replaced by the next graduate who is then subject to the same expectation.
I'd rather have an expectation level that's difficult to reach than what we have now which is no bloody expectation at all.
@Plugsy
Yes. When we had great teams we had squad players that were pretty terrible (or at best average), but then we started relying more and more on those players as our class dropped.
Disclaimer: this is only relevant to midfield really. Oh, and the wings. And sometimes the full back slots...
And I agree about patience. If it's at the cost of ambition, it's right name could be sentimentality. Or not having the option to go out and acquire the class needed, be that lack of money or pulling power or expertise required to identify targets.
Yes. When we had great teams we had squad players that were pretty terrible (or at best average), but then we started relying more and more on those players as our class dropped.
Disclaimer: this is only relevant to midfield really. Oh, and the wings. And sometimes the full back slots...
And I agree about patience. If it's at the cost of ambition, it's right name could be sentimentality. Or not having the option to go out and acquire the class needed, be that lack of money or pulling power or expertise required to identify targets.
The article's mainly based on his first competitive performance away to Moldova. England won 5-0, and would have won convincingly without him.
He shown his ability, but I don't his ability is anything special, so even if he reaches it I don't see what he has in his locker that makes him more than a squad player.
He was good in 'that start' in 2011/12, but we've seen nothing, absolutely nothing close to that since. And even then our balance was off and we didn't control games as well as we could have. If Van Gaal can get him playing like that then definitely he's nearer to the standard a first team midfielder here should be .
I don't think Cleverley was that good in 2012/13. He had some stand-out performances (still none of which matched the stand-outs of the best midfielders around) but we were been overrun by bottom half teams, and playing some disjointed, slow-paced stuff a lot of the time.
I don't think Henderson is all that good either, but he has a bit more of a directness and takes on more responsibility with the ball. He's almost a cross between Ramsey and Cleverley, leaning more towards Cleverley than Ramsey though.
This doesn't even make sense to me. Wouldn't have got a big move but is comparable to Henderson who did get a big move to Liverpool. He has played 2/3 the amount of time as Henderson and has more goals too.
The thing I've always thought with Cleverley is that he is a somewhat limited player. Decent all-rounder who ticks things over but will never be the star man.
Withdraw that in mind I have always felt that he isn't going to fit in a 2 man midfield, where he has more responsibility to produce something himself.
Put Cleverley in a 3-man midfield however and I think he would excel. I can easily see us using Carrick as the holding player in a three, and then two of Cleverley, Rooney, Mata or Kagawa making up the other two. I would like to see us try a system like this.
Withdraw that in mind I have always felt that he isn't going to fit in a 2 man midfield, where he has more responsibility to produce something himself.
Put Cleverley in a 3-man midfield however and I think he would excel. I can easily see us using Carrick as the holding player in a three, and then two of Cleverley, Rooney, Mata or Kagawa making up the other two. I would like to see us try a system like this.
I said he's 'more' comparable to Henderson than he is to Aaron Ramsey, because somebody mentioned Ramsey as a player who was booed one year and outstanding the next - a player who was worth persevering with. However he, like Henderson, doesn't have the skills that Ramsey did/has.
Basically Cleverley is closer to Henderson than Ramsey, but not as good as either, in my opinion.
I'd say Henderson also has more to his game than Cleverley. I'd have said this the season before last even.
And Cleverley's spent most of his time in the Championship, Henderson has scored 13 (10) goals in the last three seasons, Cleverley 5 (3).
And I'd be shocked if Henderson doesn't score more than Cleverley, and extend that gap quite a bit, over the next four or five years.
We shouldn't sell him, but even at his best I don't think he'd be good enough for the top level. But if a certain system can turn him into a reliable player with more to offer then that's great.
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If we sell Cleverley we're sending a very loud message to our other academy graduates that when you screw up you're gone. And last season cannot be counted for what David Moyes did. We got alot of midfielders now, but I can really see Tom flourish in a 4-3-3 attacking midfield more than in a 4-5-1 defensive midfield. I'd rather we sold Carrick, not that thats gunna happen, or we let Fletcher go - however much I love the scot, he's just been out too long.
I don't think it will send out the wrong messages at all, he has been given a chance which is all any academy player can ask for and so far he hasn't proved he is good enough, don't think anyone would blame LVG if he let him go. He is a squad player at best and although I can see him improving under LVG, he lacks mobility, has a limited passing range and lacks the talent to play at this level regularly. Another big problem he will have is there will be more competition next season and he will find it much harder to get a run in the team, the same will apply to fellaini.
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4-3-3 with Cleverley - Carrick - Herrera? Could this work? With Rooney - RVP - Mata ahead of them?
Give license for Cleverley to roam further upfield with Herrera occupying the box to box role and Carrick playing in the role he should have instead of Stevie Me if Woy had bollocks. Both Anders and Tom are quicker than Carrick and cover much more ground with Rooney and Mata both able to drop deeper and pick the ball up.
I'm not gonna lie, this could be similar to our 08/09 team, albeit with less pace. You'd have Cleverley (Park), Anders (Hargo) and Carrick (Scholes).
Give license for Cleverley to roam further upfield with Herrera occupying the box to box role and Carrick playing in the role he should have instead of Stevie Me if Woy had bollocks. Both Anders and Tom are quicker than Carrick and cover much more ground with Rooney and Mata both able to drop deeper and pick the ball up.
I'm not gonna lie, this could be similar to our 08/09 team, albeit with less pace. You'd have Cleverley (Park), Anders (Hargo) and Carrick (Scholes).
To be fair we are top club and Clev is already 25 this year. What can United do if a player is just not up to it. I am all for Clev staying, in fact i would prefer it. But if a club decides to sell that should not be a surprise. He did not only had a terrible last year. In 12-13 he was not convincing either, only had like 3-4 matches good matches and the rest was average ones and below. In 11-12 he only had a very brief good spell in the begging, then he was unfortunate with injury but that was almost two and a half years ago now. Surely that can't be an excuse.
His contract situation is tricky as well, his current one expires in 2015 and United need either to commit to him, giving him new and probably quite significant contract until 2018 or they risk being force to sell him for peanuts next summer as he would have only 1 year left.
Our academy graduates should look at Adnan for example. If you are good, you will get your chances and have a club's support. Clev is not a youngster anymore he needs to either really contribute or go. A lot of decent players moved on from United. These Leicester guys being the example.
U wot m8?
Cleverley isn't very mobile, he may be in comparison to some of our midfielders but not compared to other players in the league. Look at the penalty he conceded at Sunderland and him trying to stop Sandro shooting at white hart lane, he is slow and is easily by passed.
People need to stop moaning about Cleverley all the time. He can be a good squad player and every team needs those. His self confidence must be shot to pieces since everytime we lost a game last season someone or other would bring up how terrible Cleverley is as a player and the petition that went around to stop him from going to brazil didnt help either.
Its time we stop pointing the finger of blame and just let him play.
Its time we stop pointing the finger of blame and just let him play.
I wonder if Martinez will go in for him. I'd sell if a 12M bid came in.
What are you even on about. "This time he tried to do some defense and stuff! He's so not mobile!"..
They are examples of him showing his lack of mobility, do you not remember Sandro turning him inside out and then smashing the ball past de gea last season? Or the penalty against Sunderland in the first leg of the semi final? Watch the games and you might know what I'm talking about.What are you even on about. "This time he tried to do some defense and stuff! He's so not mobile!"..
I don't get why everyone thinks Cleverley is anything other than a very average player who has been given too many opportunities already. He isn't terrible and could do a job lower down the league but If Everton want him we shouldn't stand in the way.
It's a ridiculous point. It's fair enough to criticise his unwillingness to play the risky pass at times , but mobility is one of his biggest strengths. People have convinced themselves he's shit at everything because that's the narrative they're being fed atm. I really hope he shows what he's capable of this season.What are you even on about. "This time he tried to do some defense and stuff! He's so not mobile!"..
Cleverly should not play is as a deep lying midfielder or in a 2 man midfield. Last season it was a given that any player who dribbled in his direction would get past him. Also his 5 yard passing range is disastrous in a 2 man midfield because he'll always be under pressure. On the left or right of a 3 man midfield he's a decent squad player but not a starter. I doubt he is ever going raise his game like Ramsey did at Arsenal.
I don't think we should write anyone off under LvG - he has a knack of bringing the beys out of players and recognising where they are best deployed.
Don't forget that Ramsey, good as he is now, looked utterly hapless for a long period - despite all the historical airbrushing now taking place, he was a pariah amongst the Arsenal fan base.
Is this the Michael Carrick thread?...
He did it fine with Anderson and fine with Phil Jones this season. The key is that the second man of the two man midfield is dynamic and mobile.. In other words.. not Michael Carrick.
If he's to keep his spot over Ander Herrera by some miracle then he's going to have to be playing pretty bloody well. (Or more advanced in a three) So anything along those lines is positive. Hopefully we'll be surprised by Tom Cleverley this season. Not getting the recognition he deserves, of course that is the Caf narrative.. But surprised none the less.
Classic response dismissing it as shite with nothing to back it up other than Cleverley had some decent games a couple of years ago. The guy is average and has been given plenty of opportunities to show what he can do, he has had a few good games when he first came into the side but since then his performances have not been up to scratch and he is nowhere near talented enough to play for utd regularly. People have to understand that just because someone has a few good games it doesn't make them a good player, you need to play well consistently over a period of time and Cleverley has not done that. He can have a good career somewhere in the premier league but not here, more confidence will see him improve but he just isn't good enough.
It's not ridiculous he is not mobile compared to a genuine quality midfield player, the fact you think it is one of his biggest strengths shows how limited he is. I think you are the one who has convinced himself that Cleverley is a lot better than he actually is based on a handful of games, it's the same with anderson people see him play well once and start thinking he can be a good player. Cleverley has not played well enough and looked average or below average game after game and that is why a lot of fans want to see him moved on, I don't agree with the petitions or the abuse but he is not good enough to play at this level.
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