The reason you choose the example of America shooting down a plane, rather than one of the examples of other countries shooting down civilian planes is because you think the west is the personification of evil, in my opinion.
Malaysian Plane crashes over the Ukraine | 17th July 2014
- Thread starter Melvyn
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Not at all. I disagree with many of their foreign policies though.
I chose that example because the US is the one leading the charge now in the direction of forcing punishments against Russia.
To me the difference is the build up to the event so you can't compare punishments (which IMHO should have been harsher in the past) to previous events.
300 people were killed as a result of providing high-tech weaponry to pissed up thugs, what do you expect? I can only imagine the reaction if it had been a Russian plane - one adoptee Russian kid dies in the US or Europe and the propaganda machine here goes into full overdrive (not worrying of course about the thousands of children who die of neglect in Russia). Also reflect for a minute on what has happened to Udaltsov this week - locked up following conviction in a kangaroo court, like many of the Bolotnaya protesters. America might be wrong on many things but trying to defend Putin's regime....
What?
Are we still talking about the plane here? If you hate Putin for other reasons then this is not the place. We're talking about the plane incident and what would be a reasonable punishment/action taken in that regard.
Bizarre postings Danny, it's clear you have an anti-US agenda and I don't think this is the appropriate thread for that
I'm still waiting for the US to present their evidence of Russia's involvement in the plane crash, but not surprised at the reaction of many Western politicians who chimed in with their guilty verdicts as early as a few hours after the tragedy had happened. Blaming Putin and Russia for everything that's wrong in the world seems to be quite popular nowadays.
that CNN reporter...
Bizarre, ok, it's your opinion, but "agenda that is inappropriate for this thread"? I'd love it if you can quote those parts in my posts.
It looks like any attempt to add any kind of perspective to the thread is interpreted as an "anti-US agenda", that is "inappropriate for this thread". I'm only expressing my opinion about the situation here, and I don't think I said anything wrong. However, it seems like some people are trying to make it personal now.
well of course he is...but he will never be honest enough to admit it.
The evidence is all circumstantial isn't it. The Russians are obviously supplying the rebels (many of which are now Russian citizens) with the appropriate anti aircraft weapons to shoot down Ukrainian planes, along with anything else they would like to shoot down. There really isn't much debate about that outside the world of delusional Russian propaganda. Whether the launch button was pressed by a Russian or a Russian separatist is irrelevant, as both directly or indirectly answer to Putin. This is his insurgency and ultimately he is personally responsible for the deaths of every passenger on that plane.
All legitimate questions that the RT guy, who is on Putin's payroll and obviously isn't at liberty to discuss the issue with any degree of transparency.that CNN reporter...
even if he has one why should he admit it ? are others accepting there pro-us agenda ?
Just a thought Raoul.. who supplies Russia with these weapons or weapon parts anyway?
They have their own bustling military industrial complex left over from the Soviet days, and gradually modernized during Putin's reign.
No. Russia relies heavily on the West supplying weapons, weapon parts or weapon science. Such as from the Netherlands, UK, France and Germany. And they are still supplying Russia this very day. Russia's a very valuable weapons market for the EU. This is also the reason why the EU is refusing to play ball with the US's wish far reaching economical sanctions. Now, that's the truth.
They may in some respects, but they are also quite self-sufficient in building and maintaining their weapons systems. The EU will likely implement tougher sanctions this week, so the old logic of the EU being scared because of over reliance on Russian gas, seems to be quickly fading away after the the Russian shootdown of the Malaysian flight.
Russia was the #1 arms exporter last year and has been in the top 2 basically since 1945, while it is not even in the top 15 arms importers in the world. Russia may rely on the EU for specific high tech parts, but the overwhelming majority of its arms industry is self-sufficient. It wouldn't be advisable for the Russian military to be dependent on the EU for parts in any substantial way. It would be risky for potential enemies to be suppliers or to know the specifications of their equipment because they built it. The things that the Russians import will likely be Rolls Royce engines from the UK, while other items will likely be smaller.
Also, the second ship the French are building for the Russians will be named the Sevastopol. Coincidentally, this was decided before Putin invaded Crimea.
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Taking a good look at the Russian arsenal. Seems to be a lot of Russian made and designed items.
Looking at a 2013 list by Stockholm International Russia isn't even in the top 15 of arms importers
It is a legacy issue. The old policy of trying to engage with Russia back in the days when people thought it would democratise and become a partner with the EU. Foolish in hindsight and now it will likely be rowed back on. Which is how Russia loses out in the long run?
Russia has no real history of democracy. Hate the way that the west sees that as a preqruisite for engagement. It's not the only way.
Any news on the black box data? It's gone all quiet in the recent two weeks on this.
Australia will start searching again as soon as Abbott needs another distraction. He still intends to make some mileage out of the crash in Ukraine as there were loads of Aussie dead for him to feast upon.
Wrong crashed Malaysia Airlines Flight, @Wibble.
is this a given? I mean has it been proven, or are you just going by what the press reported before any sort of investigation was carried out.
Things have gone very quiet, i agree. The black boxes were handed over quite a while ago. But what do you need evidence for when the required sanctions have already been put in place anyway.
The people who shot it boasted on twitter about it a few minutes after the event. Pretty good proof IMO.
Did you just say a Tweet is pretty good evidence?
Yes. Why else would he claim to have shot a plane minutes after it happened?
The rebels handed it over to Malaysia, who gave it to the Dutch authorities. British authorities have also taken a look at the data.
Its been proven circumstantially from phone intercepts where the separatists, who were led by Russians and Russian weapons, shot it down. There will never be a "proper" investigation because of those investigating were never allowed the access they needed to the crash site.
I can see where you're coming from and can understand that it is quite difficult to imagine an alternative explanation. I however, am more cynical and suspicious of the media and what is reported. This is partly to do with the fact that I have worked in the industry and seen how orchestrated it is.
Just a couple of points I'd like to touch on.
I believe there was an (as in 1) intercept doing the rounds in the media and on Youtube. A separatist reporting to have shot down an enemy plane.
When you say Russians, I assume you are talking about the 'separatists'? Russian involvement hasn't been proven, though given the purpose of this conflict I wouldn't be surprised if there is support from the Russians. Though that doesn't automatically implicate Russia in this crime.
The Ukrainian army uses these same weapons. The fact that they are Russian-made is irrelevant.
Why was the plane flying over an area where planes were shot down days prior?
Who was it that didn't allow the inspectors to go to the crash site. I read that it was the Ukrainian's that wouldn't allow them to go because they could not guarantee their safety.
These points have been banded about by the media, yet there is no basis to link Russia, and specifically Putin, to this crime, yet the day after the crash all the media came out labeling Putin a murderer. Surely, anyone who can take a step back and detach themselves from their sentiments can see this is politically motivated to alienate Russia. Why? Because of it's gas. This will serve to increase the demand from other sources making the new infrastructure investments feasible (look up info on the planned gas pipelines into the EU).
Anyway, these are the conflicting opinions you and I have reached based on the information we have received on the matter. I doubt either of us will change stance by having a tit for tat debate on a forum. It is what it is.
By Russia we're not talking about the missile being fired directly from the Kremlin. All evidence we've seen so far suggests the separatists were given weapons they really shouldn't have by the Russian military and they completely fecked up. Of course Putin isn't going to be directly linked to this, that kind of investigation is unrealistic and in any case, as much of a cnut as he is it's unlikely that he meant for a civilian plane to get shot down.
That the Ukrainian army uses similar weapons is irrelevant because there is nothing to suggest they did it, whereas there's lots to suggests the Russians did.
No civilian planes had been shot down and there were multiple civilian flights going over Ukraine without incident on a regular basis. It's obviously a bad idea to fly over a war zone, but it happens.
The debris at the crash site was quickly collected and sent to Russia. There wasn't much anyone could do about that.
The leaders of the "pro-Russian forces" such as Strelkov (his infantile nom de guerre meaning "arrow") and Borodai are actually Russians, from Russia. Not sure why you are still querying the presence of Russians.
And why would the EU alienate its huge trading partner for no reason? Basically Putin misjudged the consequences of his little land grab in Crimea and now someone needs to come up with a face-saving compromise - something like Russian language protection, federalism and no NATO. Although I am not sure how easy that is now - Putin has somehow managed to achieve something previously thought impossible outside a few pockets around Lviv and create a genuine sense of Ukrainian nationhood.
The separatists are a Russian created, funded, equipped, and managed scheme - their command and control is run by actual Russians (like Strelkov for example), many of which routinely cross the border for consultations with Moscow and with other Russian military units.
Also, the equipment necessary to shoot down planes is easily wheeled back and forth across the border within separatist held territory, and there have been various pics of suspected BUK launchers in separatist held areas being bandied about on Twitter, as well as numerous incidents where Ukrainian jets and cargo planes have been shot down during the same period. This was obviously a cock up where some ill-informed Russian separatist on the ground thought he was firing at a Ukrainian jet and inadvertently murdered nearly 300 people.
Since the entire insurgency is sponsored by Putin, the responsibility of every death can be directly attributed to him.
I did say "anyone who can take a step back and detach themselves from their sentiments".
From the way you formulated your response, it is obvious you harbor strong anti-Putin/Russian sentiment. This may be inhibitive when trying to form an objective and informed opinion.
Yes, I have also read/seen/heard that version of events multiple times in the media
There are Russians operating in the Donbass. The Russians I know don't even deny that basic fact, although they don't see it as an issue since most of them refuse to recognize Ukrainians as possessing a separate nationality. Saying otherwise is not "objectivity" but rather performing the "useful idiot" role to use Lenin's words.
Woops. Wrong thread. So many photo opportunities for Tony Abbott the utter twat.