A friend of mine is at the conference he was on his way too. Will be a tough conference.
Malaysian Plane crashes over the Ukraine | 17th July 2014
- Thread starter Melvyn
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Just seen a video on Facebook said to be this crash but is probably a different crash anyway.
The video shows a plane fully intact and struggling to fly then sort of twisting and hitting the ground. No signs of damage before hand. Like I said, probably a different crash. Can't be sure though.
The video shows a plane fully intact and struggling to fly then sort of twisting and hitting the ground. No signs of damage before hand. Like I said, probably a different crash. Can't be sure though.
Is it filmed from within a car? If so it is probably a US transport plane that went down in Afghanistan. It has been posted on various sites as this crash.
It really is a disgrace whats going on at the crash site. Drunk separatists refusing OSCE observers entry, altering the crash site and not saying what they have done with the black box. Can´t even imagine what it is like for the relatives. Not knowing what has happened to their loved ones or if they will ever be able to have a proper funeral.
Yeah that's the one. What the hell happened to it? Watching it felt really strange.
I'm a pilot, not an engineerWell as far as I know, if any damage is caused to the fuselage then at that speed and altitude it would very quickly expand and shatter the plane into pieces. Which is why when planes have failures of any kind at that altitude/speed it tends to be fatal. This is my understanding from watching a few documentaries about plane crashes anyway. It's common sense if you think about it. Why i'm explaining this to you is beyond me considering your job!
I suppose in short, we won't really know what happened because as far as I know, there isn't a clear video of the moment of impact, so we don't know exactly where the missile hit.
. I agree, that a plane would normally break up in to pieces. But it really depends on the way it falls, where it is hit and things like that. Yeah we don't and now that the Russians have taken the FDR I wonder if we ever will.
propaganda 
One article I read said that SAM missiles don't usually hit what they are aimed at but rather explode when close enough to the target for the shrapnel to take the plane out. In this case there were reports of the tail breaking off. Obviously I have no idea if any of this is true/accurate.I'm a pilot, not an engineer
Yeah we don't and now that the Russians have taken the FDR I wonder if we ever will.
I think the tail breaking off bit is true. Though I do not know how a SAM missile works. My only hope that the people were already out cold by the time this hit the ground or shortly after the missile hit. I'm guessing the aircraft fell at about 15-20k feet per minute (random number I've pulled because in my simulators we demonstrate recoveries from pitch down of greater than 10 Degrees, where the rate of descent is about 13000 Feet/min) then that means the fall down to earth must have been at least a 1:30 minutes long. Which is a long time.
One expert who examined victims of the TWA disaster said none had water in their lungs which meant they were dead when the went into the water and he then said he though the impact, rapid deceleration and decompression would have rendered everyone dead or unconscious in seconds. Another expert said anyone who wasn't dead or unconscious instantly would have been knocked out after 30 seconds due to oxygen deprivation. I did wonder if they were both overstating the case for nobody being conscious all the way down for the benefit of the families.
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It could be the case. I would say its safe to assume that a majority of the people we dead or unconscious but all of the 295? Guess we will never know these things.
I just realised I'm being a right prick about this. Apologies.
I just realised I'm being a right prick about this. Apologies.
There was an article in The Times yesterday which speculated that people may well have been alive for the whole of the descent. I was rather disappointed that they felt that was appropriate, really, it seemed ghoulish. I think it's much better for the families if experts say conclusively that passengers wouldn't have known anything after the initial impact of the missile. After all, no-one knows for sure and therefore it is all conjecture.
I agree. I realise my mistake here. It was just my mind working away at the events that followed. I should probably have kept those thoughts to myself.
That last sentence is basically saying that people reporting all would have been unconscious is also just conjecture.
I'd rather have that conjecture than the other, quite honestly.
I think the entire topic is a bit grotesque to be honest. Fair enough discuss it on the caf but it doesn't need to be put in a paper, it hardly adds anything to the "news" aspect. It's morbid curiosity more than anything which I'd hope the Times'd be above.
I agree it's not news, but I think it is important somehow.
For example, and it's not an example I ever hope to use again, the south Korean children on that boat were scratching at the walls to try to and pull themselves up to find somewhere to breathe and survive.
These aren't just numbers, but people. People who were alive and were murdered horribly. I agree it's not apropriate for a paper to speculate and calculate as you have, but id rather know some sort of the truth
Like in the graphic images thread, there's always times when that sort of information does add to the story or the impact. Again though, I don't think this case is one of those. We know plane crashes are terrible for the people on the plane, a paper speculating just how terrible it might have been for them doesn't really help, at least in my opinion.
Agreed. This does not really add much to the story. What really matters next is the recovery of untampered information from the FDR and CVR
Yeah I agree, but at the same time I don't like being lied to by the media. At least one outlet is telling the truth about the possibilities even if it isn't nice.
Despicable.
What a fecking maggot.
It's shocking, but people showing up to loot plane crashes is probably the norm in any non-wealthy region where they happen. Some sort of mob mentality and greed, coupled with detachment from the victims. I know it happened in Azores in 1949. My stepmother, who was born in the village where it happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Air_France_Lockheed_Constellation_crash) told me it's well known that most able-bodied men were looting the place for days and people were flashing and selling jewels for weeks after the disaster. The general feeling was one of euphoria, not consternation. I'm almost sure I've heard of the same happening in a 1989 crash here as well.
Not only people do it, they don't seem the least embarrassed by it.
Not only people do it, they don't seem the least embarrassed by it.
That's so PC of you
I'm just going to call it for what it is... third world, poverty stricken regions. And while I do not agree with it at all I do understand their mentality and am not surprised by it. At least in that vine, he/she suddenly realizes this doesn't feel right and stops.Victim’s last words: look after my dog
TOM PHILLIPS
Malaysia Airlines stewardess Angeline Premila Rajandran with her dog Lexi. (File picture)
Kuala Lumpur, July 19: An air stewardess who died when Malaysia Airlines Flight MH-17 crashed in eastern Ukraine sent a final message to her family asking them to take care of her pet dog.
Angeline Premila Rajandran, a 30-year-old from the Malaysian city of Klang, was one of 298 people on the Boeing 777 when it went down on Thursday after apparently being hit by a surface-to-air missile.
Just minutes before the flight took off Rajandran sent a message to her mother via the WhatsApp messaging service that said: “Look after my dog Lexi.”
“My mum is devastated as Angeline and the rest of us celebrated our mum’s birthday only two weeks ago,” Murphy Govind, her brother, was quoted as saying byThe Star newspaper. “My mother has locked herself in her room and has refused to come out ever since we heard about the news.”
Govind described the agony of receiving a phone call from Malaysia Airlines at around 4am yesterday morning with the news that his sister’s plane had failed to land.
Friends described Rajandran, who had also worked as a model for the Malaysian airline, as someone who loved travel and animals.
In March, she posted a photograph of her dog, Lexi, on her Facebook page, alongside the caption: “My LiL Lexi”.
Annette Roman Vermani, a close friend of the air stewardess, said they had been making plans to get together. “Now it will not happen,” she said, adding that her friend was “good-natured, prim and proper”. “We are all going to miss you Angeline Rest In Peace,” Guhanandan Selvadurai, a friend, wrote on Facebook.
Today, Liow Tiong Lai, Malaysia’s transport minister, told reporters he would travel to Kiev to monitor investigations.
“We have sent our investigation team and we will make sure that they have a safe corridor to get to the debris field,” he said.
PM bereaved
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak today confirmed that his step-grandmother, Siti Amirah, 83, was on board Flight MH-17 that was downed over Ukraine en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
”I personally share the grief of the families on board #MH17,” Najib said in a Tweet. “My step-grandmother was one of the passengers.”
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
Stench swirls around Russia
OUR BUREAU
INSIDE MH-17 DEATH WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INSTANTANEOUS
July 19: Ukraine today claimed it had evidence to prove Russia supplied the missile system that downed a Malaysian airliner and accused pro-Moscow rebels and their protectors of destroying evidence to cover up their guilt.
As the militants kept international monitors away from the wreckage and scores of bodies festered for a third day, Russian President Vladimir Putin urged the rebels to cooperate and insisted that a UN-mandated investigation must not leap to conclusions.
With midday temperatures touching 30°C, the stench of death began to pervade the crash site in eastern Ukraine. The Dutch government, whose citizens made up more than half the 298 aboard MH-17, said it was “furious” at the manhandling of corpses strewn for miles over open country.
US secretary of state John Kerry, in a phone call with Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, stressed that investigators must get full access to the crash site, the state department said. Kerry told Lavrov the US is “very concerned” over reports that the remains of victims and debris from the site have been removed or tampered with.
Germany called it Moscow’s last chance to cooperate. European powers seemed to swing behind Washington’s belief that Russia’s separatist allies were to blame.
Germany, reliant like other EU states on Russian energy and more engaged in Russian trade than the US, has been reluctant to escalate a confrontation with Moscow.
The following are answers that emerged in the past 24 hours to some of the questions swirling around the tragedy.
What proof did Ukraine furnish?
Ukraine, which is fighting Russia-backed rebels in the east, said it had “compelling evidence” the missile battery was not just brought in from Russia but manned by three Russian citizens who later took the truck-mounted system back over the border.
Vitaly Nayda, the Ukrainian head of counterintelligence, showed photographs of what he identified as three Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two devices — which looked like missile launchers mounted on an armoured vehicle — crossed the border into Russia around 2am Friday, less than 10 hours after MH-17 was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed around 4am.
Are the pieces of evidence good enough?
Ukraine has given specific details, some of which have matched what the West has been saying. But such proof will be treated as unverified information until independent observers examine them.
Remember, not individuals but governments with accompanying resources are at play here. Photographs and data intercepts are elementary devices in propaganda wars.
Which pieces of information furnished by the West and Ukraine are matching so far?
The site of the missile launch, the accent in the intercepts of militant conversations and a conclusion that the rebels on their own could not have handled the sophisticated missile system.
What about the site of the launch?
Nayda, the Ukrainian counterintelligence chief, said the missile had been fired from the town of Snezhnoye, located in rebel-controlled territory, echoing US President Barack Obama.
Both the Ukrainians and the Americans said they believed that the separatist rebels would have needed help from Russia in order to fire the anti-aircraft missiles. “It strains credulity to think that (the missile) could be used by separatists without at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance,” Pentagon spokesperson Rear Admiral John Kirby told reporters.
It takes professionals to shoot down an airliner and not a group of “drunken gorillas”, Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk said, adding that “it is possible that these people came from Russia”.
How did they zero in on the location?
All indications suggest that the Americans did the tracking. The detection satellites, known as Defense Support Program (or DSP) satellites, orbit the Earth around 36,000km over the equator, and are operated from a control station at Buckley Air Force base in Colorado in the US.
The satellite data included an image of a plume of smoke left in the missile’s trail that allowed analysts to calculate a launch area near the Russia-Ukraine border that is dominated by pro-Russian separatist fighters.
It also included data culled from infrared sensors, which detected the explosion of the jet. Although the possible launch area extends to both sides of the border, the most likely location is in rebel-held territory close to where the wreckage of the plane plummeted from the sky, US officials said.
So, is the case settled?
No, not yet. When US analysts tried to pin down who fired the missile, why and where it came from, they ran into difficult questions.
The American analysts have based some of their conclusions so far on technical data from advanced spy satellites whose principal use is to provide early warning of intercontinental ballistic missile launches. In an indication of the limitations of US intelligence capabilities, officials said they were unsure how the missile arrived in the launch area. There was no US intelligence showing a Buk (also known as SA-11) missile crossing the border into Ukraine, the Pentagon said.
Samantha Power, the US ambassador to the UN, said that separatists had been spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system “at a location close to the site where the plane came down”. She said a western reporter had indicated early on Thursday that an SA-11 system was reported near Snezhnoye — the place that was pinpointed as the launch site on the basis of the satellite data.
But till Saturday afternoon, US officials had stopped short of accusing Russian fighters of playing a direct role in launching the missile. No determination had yet been made as to “who pushed the button”, an official said.
What are the rebels saying?
In the regional capital Donetsk, the Prime Minister of the separatist authorities said Kiev was holding up the arrival of international experts whose mission was authorised on Friday by the UN Security Council. Contrary to earlier statements by the rebels, Alexander Borodai said they had not found the black box recorders.
Are black boxes crucial?
Usually, yes. But some analysts expressed the fear that flight data may offer little information on what downed the plane. An explosion by a missile that blew the aircraft apart could show only as a sudden, catastrophic collapse of all the onboard systems. There is a good chance that the pilots did not see the missile coming, leaving little informative trace on the cockpit voice recording.
Who should investigate such a case?
In a typical crash inquiry, it is up to Ukraine, on whose territory the plane fell, to secure the area and recover the flight data and liaise with the manufacturer to download the contents correctly.
But securing evidence in the middle of a war zone is a daunting task. The Ukrainian President has already spoken to world leaders about an international investigation.
What will give the investigators a breakthrough?
The investigators will be looking for debris not part of the plane. The wreckage might show traces of explosives. Somewhere in the debris strewn for miles across the steppe might be remnants of a missile. But finding them will be hard.
A former British airman said: “Unless there is a stark difference in the exact type of arms both sides hold, differentiating is not easy.” In fact, all sides use similar former Soviet hardware.
COMPILED FROM REUTERS AND NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE REPORTS
A ‘wake-up call’ to work for truce
NANDAN UNNIKRISHNAN
The shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, while a big challenge to finding a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, could also be a wake-up call that will lead to a ceasefire and negotiated settlement.
The downing of the aircraft has, naturally, sparked international outrage and condemnation. The West and Ukraine were quick to blame Russia, providing what appears to them as irrefutable proof that the separatists backed by Moscow were responsible for shooting down the plane with a missile.
The Russian were equally quick to deny the charges, adding that this was part of the “information warfare” against them and call for an impartial inquiry into the incident.
The differing versions of the events that led to the tragedy underscore the difficulties, which may eventually be insurmountable, in the path of finding a solution that will satisfy everyone.
The only facts on which all agree are that MH-17 crashed over a part of Ukraine which is a warzone between the Ukrainian government and the so-called “self defence forces”, allegedly supported by Russia, and that the plane was flying too high to be destroyed by the portable or light vehicle-mounted surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) so far openly used by the separatists.
However, from the clamour created by the charges, counter-charges and pure speculation about the incident some elements can be discerned.
The missile that brought down the aircraft was probably a “Buk”, what Nato calls “Gadfly”. A Buk system is vehicle-mounted and fires missiles that can reach much higher than the reported altitude — 33,000 feet — of MH-17. The Buk is a radar-guided missile, which could be fired without physical sighting of the target.
There are conflicting reports on whether the anti-government forces possess SAM batteries. Some separatists had recently claimed to have captured one from the Ukrainian Army, but other leaders have disputed this. What makes the allegation that the separatists fired the missile more credible is that a trained SAM battery military crew should have been able to distinguish the radar signature of a passenger plane from a military troop carrier.
The relatively inexperienced separatists, lacking extensive radar support, would lack the skills to make that distinction. Of course, the 2001 inexplicable downing of a Russian civilian plane by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea makes such judgements difficult to make.
An important piece of evidence supporting the Kiev’s version are the recordings of alleged conversations between military leaders of the “self defence forces” released by the Ukrainian authorities. There is little doubt that the speakers recorded on the tape are aware that a plane was shot down, but appear shocked to discover that it is a civilian aircraft.
There are, however, claims on the Internet that question the authenticity of these recordings, claiming that the time stamp of the uploaded YouTube file suggests that the recording was made a day before the disaster.
There is also confusion about why the MH-17 was on this flight path, given that Russia had notified, well before the flight took off from Amsterdam, the closure of its airspace in the region. But it is possible that the path may have been open at the altitude that the Malaysian aircraft was flying. It is also not clear why the airspace was not closed earlier over eastern Ukraine where several aircraft, albeit military, have been shot down recently.
These questions should be addressed by an authoritative, impartial investigation into the crash to which all sides should provide evidence they possess.
The tragic incident makes it more difficult to get all the parties involved in the conflict together to seek a settlement. Any settlement will have to take into account the interests of all parties involved — Ukraine, Russia, the EU and the US. Also, Russia should understand that promoting separatists in Ukraine could lead to catastrophic consequences.
On the other hand, if the West insists on isolating the Kremlin, it will only exacerbate the situation and probably push Russia closer to China. Not an outcome India will relish.
India has in the past — and continues to — acknowledged that Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine. However, at the same time, Delhi will have to make sure that this position is not seen as endorsement of Russian support for the separatists in eastern Ukraine.
Moreover, if efforts to defuse tensions between the West and Russia fail, Delhi will have to seek to develop its relationship with Moscow as leverage against what is perceived to be India’s primary strategic challenge — the rise of China.
India and Russia will have to creatively use forums like the Russia-India-China trilateral, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and others to circumscribe Chinese power within a framework of internationally acceptable rules.
Nandan Unnikrishnan is a senior fellow with the Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi. His area of expertise is Russia and the former Soviet Republic
Traditionally India would support Russia in such scenarios and I would have said that it would be the case this time around as well but you never know with Modi.
Modi is not retarded. Russia is India's ally and will continue to be so.
Committed to deepen Indo-Russian ties: Modi tells Putin
Hailing Russia as “our country’s greatest friend,” Prime Minister Narendra Modi told Russian President Vladimir Putin that India was committed to deepening ties between the two countries and to exploring new areas of cooperation.
Mr. Modi met the Russian President on the sidelines of the 6 th BRICS summit in Fortaleza, Brazil, on late Tuesday night and invited him to visit the Kudankulam nuclear power plant in Tamil Nadu.
“If you ask anyone among the more than one billion people living in India who is our country’s greatest friend, every person, every child knows that it is Russia,” Mr. Modi said.
The two heads of nations discussed all major bilateral issues concerning strategic affairs, global political matters, defence cooperation and economic ties during the 40-minute meeting, during which Mr. Modi was reportedly briefed about Russia’s position on the crisis in Ukraine.
According to website Russia and India Report, discussions explored possibilities of supplying Russian gas to India through pipelines via China or Pakistan. RIR also cited sources saying Mr. Putin had “offered comprehensive measures” to raise bilateral trade to $20 billion.
Mr. Modi said he looked forward to Mr. Putin’s visit to India in December, for the13th annual Indo-Russian summit in New Delhi, and urged the Russian President to visit the Kudankulam nuclear power plant.
“You could visit the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant, our joint project… your visit there would be an excellent symbol of our cooperation,” he said.
The two leaders were earlier expected to meet on Monday following the interaction between Mr. Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping.
However, the meeting was rescheduled for Tuesday owing to Mr. Putin’s meeting with Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff in Brasilia.
Congratulating Mr. Modi on being elected the Prime Minister of India, the Russian President said he was pleased that India and Russia were “in full consensus” on working together on the international stage and on matters of economic and defence cooperation.
“We know that you are a great friend of our country… I hope… we will be able to work together with your government to continue building our relations,” he said.
Mr. Modi cited INS Vikramaditya as an “excellent example of the cooperation between our nations” saying it added to Indian naval strength.
He also praised the Russian President for his clear views at the BRICS summit.
“Whether on Brazil, India or Africa, you have very good, precise and substantial views (and) a very clear and frank position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council,” he said.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...sian-ties-modi-tells-putin/article6217890.ece
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I think they're panicking. I read this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ussian-separatists-shot-down-malaysian-plane/
and it seems like they shot it down thinking it was a supply plane from the Ukraine. Bear in mind that the Colonel who rumouredly ordered the strike works with the russian intelligence organisation (GRU) (according to the EU), and has massive sanctions on him.
A pressurized fuselage flying at 0.8 M at 30,000 ft will rip apart once a stress concentration (rupture, hole) occurs on it. A damaged aileron or wing may be less damaging to a plane's chances of survival (the Sioux City incident in 1989 is an example). At cruise speed and altitude, a hole in the fuselage will result in rapid decompression, structural rupture of the fuselage, and g forces resulting from the unsteady flows induced by the structural deformation. I'm not an expert on what such phenomena have on the human body.I'm a pilot, not an engineer
Yeah we don't and now that the Russians have taken the FDR I wonder if we ever will.
I have no problem with conjecture by the media either. The media should be asking such questions. People too sensitive to handle such conjecture shouldn't be reading the news.
P
. Many SAMS do indeed have proximity fuses so that they explode when close enough
That is why I said it depends on where it was hit. Secondly, it isn't always the case that it will break apart. There have been instances in history where aircrafts have survived major decompressions at high altitude (B747). This very aircraft seemed to be pretty close to intact other than the tail seperating. Aircrafts are a lot stronger than popular belief.
It may not break apart, true. That is because aerospace structures are designed with some level of redundancy. Aircraft engines for example are designed to retain most high energy particles such as fan blades, in case of structural failure. Structural failure is just referring to the failure of the structure to accept load, it may or may not lead to disintegration of the aircraft.
Exactly. It really depends on the point of impact in this case and the manner in which the aircraft fell.
I think all BUK systems use a radar proximity fuse.
http://www.gofundme.com/brx6wk
A fundraise for the two NUFC lads from Sunderland fans. Sorry if posted before.
A fundraise for the two NUFC lads from Sunderland fans. Sorry if posted before.
Pretty good piece from Paul Gregory, who has been all over Russian adventures in Ukraine since the beginning.
Here Are The Intercepted Transcripts Indicating Russian Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH17
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20140721
The Ukrainian intelligence service has released more intercepted phone calls that show militants and Russian military intelligence agentsdiscussing the presence, location, and disposition of BUK surface-to-air missiles in the Donetsk region. Ukrainian intelligence has provided the voice recordings and English transcripts, which I have had checked by an expert against the Russian voice recordings. I have used such intercepts in past columns on hostage releases and on ordered executions of opposition figures, and they have proven to be accurate.
Russian propaganda will, of course, sputter in indignation that these recordings are fabricated, but they are, in my considered opinion, authentic. I reproduce them in full. Readers can form their own opinion. They correspond to known facts I have already described–that surface-to-air missiles had been fired from this very area to bring down a Ukrainian transport plane days before, that a BUK missile had been sighted in the area by an Associated Press correspondent, and that the supreme rebel commander boasted on social media that his forces had brought down the plane which proved to be MH17.
But once this piece is posted, Putin’s trolls will go over every word of the often-garbled conversations to triumphantly declare they are falsifications or prove the innocence of the rebels and their Russian handlers.
Forget not that separatist field officers and their Russian superiors must communicate with one another in order to be briefed and issue orders. In the case of the BUK systems, there are instances where they use code words, like “beauty,” but in most cases they speak clearly about BUKs. Apparently, their communications are routinely intercepted by the Ukrainian side, just as I imagine similar Ukrainian field communications are by the pro-Russian side.
The transcripts of the intercepted calls show that rebels on the ground were receiving instructions from superiors in Russian military intelligence (GRU), that they discussed receipt, disposition (including hiding), and use of BUKs to bring down Ukrainian planes, that at least one BUK had come into Ukraine across the Russian border, that there was a crew that knew how to operate it, that there was likely more than one BUK, that the rebels considered the BUKs a game changer, and that they were expecting some sort of Russian hostile action launched from across the border.
Here are the English transcripts and the voice recordings of intercepted phone calls in Russian:
Talks between terrorists, July 14, 2014
“Oleh” – Oleh Bugrov Valeriovych, army chief of staff of self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic, deputy minister of defense of “LNR”
“Oreon” – a citizen of the Russian Federation, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate (to be identified).
Oleh: – Worked out a plane near Stanitsa. Missed.
Oreon: – Great. This way they are taking revenge on planes, but only several days remain. Now we have BUK, will shall bring them (planes) down.
Talks between terrorists, July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Sergei Nikolaevich Petrovskiy, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Igor Girkin on Intelligence; at the time of the interception he was in Donetsk.
“Buryat” – militant of rebel group “DNR,” or Donetsk People’s Republic (to be identified).
Buryat: – Where should we load this beauty, Nikolaievich?
Khmuryi: Which one? This one?
B: Yes, the one I’ve brought. I’m already in Donetsk.
K: Is it the one I’m thinking about? “B…,”M” one?
B: Yes, yes, yes. “BUK”,”BUK”.
K: Is it on a tractor?
B: Yes, it’s on it. We need to unload it somewhere, in order to hide.
K: Is it with a crew?
B: Yes, with the crew.
K: Don’t hide it anywhere. She’ll go there now.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: – Tell me, have you brought me one or two?
Buryat: One, one. Because they had a misunderstanding there. They didn’t give us a tug. We loaded it and went at their own pace.
K: Did it go on her own or on a tug?
B: It crossed the line (border).
H: And now have you brought it on a tug? Don’t put in anywhere… I’ll tell now where it should go, it will go together with “Vostok” tanks.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi and “Sanych” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR”. Deputy of Khmuryi.
K: Sanych, the point is that my “BUK–M” will go with yours, it is on a tug. Where should I drive it to put in a column?
Sanych: There, behind “Motel”, not reaching Hornostaevka.
K: Just after the Motel, right?
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Listen to me carefully, behind the circle near “Motel” there will be you know what. Call to “Bibliotekar” (Librarian).
Bring inside only those, who just came back, only as much as you need for the convoy. Leave everyone else here. Not far away there is Pervomaiskoe, look at the map.
DNR militant: I got it.
Khmuryi: Settle somewhere in that area, bring there those who are left. Your task is reserve, plus protection of this piece, which you will drive now. “Giyrza” will come there too. If anything, I’m on line.
DNR militant: – Ok.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi and “Botsman” – officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation (to be identified).
K: Yes, Botsman, I’m listening.
B: Hello, big brother. How are you?
K: Not so well. We are in Mariinovka. That’s why not well. Carrying on.
B: What’s wrong?
K: What do you think? (The Ukrainian army is) attacking with “Grad” (multiple-rocket launchers) all the time, finally now we’re having a little break. We’ve just hit a plane, Su–type. Because we’ve got BUK–M. They (Ukrainian soldiers) are now in Zelenopillja, trying to break free, but their way out is only through me. Yesterday we hit 2 Su jets, today – another two. Thank God “BUK–M” arrived today in the morning. It became easier. But in general, of course, it’s tough.
B: What can I say, if you need anything, call me – and I’ll arrive immediately.
H: Thanks, brother. I’m going in two hours…Seems like it’s a lull. In two hours I’m heading to Donetsk. Because I was sent three more “Gvozdika” (self–propelled artillery). Will carry ‘Gvozdikas’ here because it’s really tough now.
B: Maybe we should cover them with (our own) Grad (multiple-rocket launchers)?
H: The thing is that we have Grad, but no spotter. And secondly, we are waiting for Russia to f*** them from their side.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20140721
The Ukrainian intelligence service has released more intercepted phone calls that show militants and Russian military intelligence agentsdiscussing the presence, location, and disposition of BUK surface-to-air missiles in the Donetsk region. Ukrainian intelligence has provided the voice recordings and English transcripts, which I have had checked by an expert against the Russian voice recordings. I have used such intercepts in past columns on hostage releases and on ordered executions of opposition figures, and they have proven to be accurate.
Russian propaganda will, of course, sputter in indignation that these recordings are fabricated, but they are, in my considered opinion, authentic. I reproduce them in full. Readers can form their own opinion. They correspond to known facts I have already described–that surface-to-air missiles had been fired from this very area to bring down a Ukrainian transport plane days before, that a BUK missile had been sighted in the area by an Associated Press correspondent, and that the supreme rebel commander boasted on social media that his forces had brought down the plane which proved to be MH17.
But once this piece is posted, Putin’s trolls will go over every word of the often-garbled conversations to triumphantly declare they are falsifications or prove the innocence of the rebels and their Russian handlers.
Forget not that separatist field officers and their Russian superiors must communicate with one another in order to be briefed and issue orders. In the case of the BUK systems, there are instances where they use code words, like “beauty,” but in most cases they speak clearly about BUKs. Apparently, their communications are routinely intercepted by the Ukrainian side, just as I imagine similar Ukrainian field communications are by the pro-Russian side.
The transcripts of the intercepted calls show that rebels on the ground were receiving instructions from superiors in Russian military intelligence (GRU), that they discussed receipt, disposition (including hiding), and use of BUKs to bring down Ukrainian planes, that at least one BUK had come into Ukraine across the Russian border, that there was a crew that knew how to operate it, that there was likely more than one BUK, that the rebels considered the BUKs a game changer, and that they were expecting some sort of Russian hostile action launched from across the border.
Here are the English transcripts and the voice recordings of intercepted phone calls in Russian:
Talks between terrorists, July 14, 2014
“Oleh” – Oleh Bugrov Valeriovych, army chief of staff of self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic, deputy minister of defense of “LNR”
“Oreon” – a citizen of the Russian Federation, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate (to be identified).
Oleh: – Worked out a plane near Stanitsa. Missed.
Oreon: – Great. This way they are taking revenge on planes, but only several days remain. Now we have BUK, will shall bring them (planes) down.
Talks between terrorists, July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Sergei Nikolaevich Petrovskiy, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Igor Girkin on Intelligence; at the time of the interception he was in Donetsk.
“Buryat” – militant of rebel group “DNR,” or Donetsk People’s Republic (to be identified).
Buryat: – Where should we load this beauty, Nikolaievich?
Khmuryi: Which one? This one?
B: Yes, the one I’ve brought. I’m already in Donetsk.
K: Is it the one I’m thinking about? “B…,”M” one?
B: Yes, yes, yes. “BUK”,”BUK”.
K: Is it on a tractor?
B: Yes, it’s on it. We need to unload it somewhere, in order to hide.
K: Is it with a crew?
B: Yes, with the crew.
K: Don’t hide it anywhere. She’ll go there now.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: – Tell me, have you brought me one or two?
Buryat: One, one. Because they had a misunderstanding there. They didn’t give us a tug. We loaded it and went at their own pace.
K: Did it go on her own or on a tug?
B: It crossed the line (border).
H: And now have you brought it on a tug? Don’t put in anywhere… I’ll tell now where it should go, it will go together with “Vostok” tanks.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi and “Sanych” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR”. Deputy of Khmuryi.
K: Sanych, the point is that my “BUK–M” will go with yours, it is on a tug. Where should I drive it to put in a column?
Sanych: There, behind “Motel”, not reaching Hornostaevka.
K: Just after the Motel, right?
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Listen to me carefully, behind the circle near “Motel” there will be you know what. Call to “Bibliotekar” (Librarian).
Bring inside only those, who just came back, only as much as you need for the convoy. Leave everyone else here. Not far away there is Pervomaiskoe, look at the map.
DNR militant: I got it.
Khmuryi: Settle somewhere in that area, bring there those who are left. Your task is reserve, plus protection of this piece, which you will drive now. “Giyrza” will come there too. If anything, I’m on line.
DNR militant: – Ok.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi and “Botsman” – officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation (to be identified).
K: Yes, Botsman, I’m listening.
B: Hello, big brother. How are you?
K: Not so well. We are in Mariinovka. That’s why not well. Carrying on.
B: What’s wrong?
K: What do you think? (The Ukrainian army is) attacking with “Grad” (multiple-rocket launchers) all the time, finally now we’re having a little break. We’ve just hit a plane, Su–type. Because we’ve got BUK–M. They (Ukrainian soldiers) are now in Zelenopillja, trying to break free, but their way out is only through me. Yesterday we hit 2 Su jets, today – another two. Thank God “BUK–M” arrived today in the morning. It became easier. But in general, of course, it’s tough.
B: What can I say, if you need anything, call me – and I’ll arrive immediately.
H: Thanks, brother. I’m going in two hours…Seems like it’s a lull. In two hours I’m heading to Donetsk. Because I was sent three more “Gvozdika” (self–propelled artillery). Will carry ‘Gvozdikas’ here because it’s really tough now.
B: Maybe we should cover them with (our own) Grad (multiple-rocket launchers)?
H: The thing is that we have Grad, but no spotter. And secondly, we are waiting for Russia to f*** them from their side.