Malaysian Plane crashes over the Ukraine | 17th July 2014

[barros]

One expert who examined victims of the TWA disaster said none had water in their lungs which meant they were dead when the went into the water and he then said he though the impact, rapid deceleration and decompression would have rendered everyone dead or unconscious in seconds. Another expert said anyone who wasn't dead or unconscious instantly would have been knocked out after 30 seconds due to oxygen deprivation. I did wonder if they were both overstating the case for nobody being conscious all the way down for the benefit of the families.

The decompression will knock out most of the people but I did high altitude jumps close to 10k and the C130 opened the side door hold your breath and jump, the problem wasn't the lack of oxygen but the cold and 30 seconds will not knock out any normal person and we fall really fast, but I would like to think they were all dead or unconscious when they hit the ground.

 

[Krits]

The decompression will knock out most of the people but I did high altitude jumps close to 10k and the C130 opened the side door hold your breath and jump, the problem wasn't the lack of oxygen but the cold and 30 seconds will not knock out any normal person and we fall really fast, but I would like to think they were all dead or unconscious when they hit the ground.

Humans can stay conscious for up to 30 minutes at 10000 feet. In fact as per regulations you aren't even required to carry oxygen for passengers up till 14000 feet. Like I said earlier. Time of useful consciousness is around 6 seconds at 36000 feet. That is for a normal healthy person. Doesn't mean you can hold your breath and you will be able to survive for longer.

 

[Member 60376]

Modi is not retarded. Russia is India's ally and will continue to be so.

Spoiler

Committed to deepen Indo-Russian ties: Modi tells Putin

Hailing Russia as “our country’s greatest friend,” Prime Minister Narendra Modi told Russian President Vladimir Putin that India was committed to deepening ties between the two countries and to exploring new areas of cooperation.

Mr. Modi met the Russian President on the sidelines of the 6 th BRICS summit in Fortaleza, Brazil, on late Tuesday night and invited him to visit the Kudankulam nuclear power plant in Tamil Nadu.

“If you ask anyone among the more than one billion people living in India who is our country’s greatest friend, every person, every child knows that it is Russia,” Mr. Modi said.

The two heads of nations discussed all major bilateral issues concerning strategic affairs, global political matters, defence cooperation and economic ties during the 40-minute meeting, during which Mr. Modi was reportedly briefed about Russia’s position on the crisis in Ukraine.

According to website Russia and India Report, discussions explored possibilities of supplying Russian gas to India through pipelines via China or Pakistan. RIR also cited sources saying Mr. Putin had “offered comprehensive measures” to raise bilateral trade to $20 billion.

Mr. Modi said he looked forward to Mr. Putin’s visit to India in December, for the13th annual Indo-Russian summit in New Delhi, and urged the Russian President to visit the Kudankulam nuclear power plant.

“You could visit the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant, our joint project… your visit there would be an excellent symbol of our cooperation,” he said.

The two leaders were earlier expected to meet on Monday following the interaction between Mr. Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping.

However, the meeting was rescheduled for Tuesday owing to Mr. Putin’s meeting with Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff in Brasilia.

Congratulating Mr. Modi on being elected the Prime Minister of India, the Russian President said he was pleased that India and Russia were “in full consensus” on working together on the international stage and on matters of economic and defence cooperation.

“We know that you are a great friend of our country… I hope… we will be able to work together with your government to continue building our relations,” he said.

Mr. Modi cited INS Vikramaditya as an “excellent example of the cooperation between our nations” saying it added to Indian naval strength.

He also praised the Russian President for his clear views at the BRICS summit.

“Whether on Brazil, India or Africa, you have very good, precise and substantial views (and) a very clear and frank position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council,” he said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...sian-ties-modi-tells-putin/article6217890.ece

Only this was before the plane was shot down, since then India has only offered condolences and no backing to either the west or to Russia

 

[barros]

Humans can stay conscious for up to 30 minutes at 10000 feet. In fact as per regulations you aren't even required to carry oxygen for passengers up till 14000 feet. Like I said earlier. Time of useful consciousness is around 6 seconds at 36000 feet. That is for a normal healthy person. Doesn't mean you can hold your breath and you will be able to survive for longer.

The problem will be when the airplane decompresses and most of the people if not all would lose conscious but I don't know how long since would take a few minutes before they crash.

 

[Sir Matt]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Phrasing.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

And they're supposed to be professionals!

 

[JustAFan]

And they're supposed to be professionals!

I blame Twitter. But mostly because I dislike Twitter.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I blame Twitter. But mostly because I dislike Twitter.

All it needed was a comma. They should have some knowledge of basic grammar.

 

[JustAFan]

All it needed was a comma. They should have some knowledge of basic grammar.

Twitter makes people lazy. In this case compounded by the writer's ignorance of commas, a problem that has caused me issues on this very forum.

 

[JustAFan]

But back on subject, Germany calling for 2018 World Cup to be pulled from Russia. Be a black mark for FIFA if they end up having to move both 2018 and 2022 World Cup.

 

[Sir Matt]

It's a black mark that both countries were given the World Cups in the first place.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Is there actually any evidence that the rebels shot the plane down? What's the latest on this?

Also, is it being considered that the Ukrainian army might have shot it down?

 

[JustAFan]

It's a black mark that both countries were given the World Cups in the first place.

Yeah that is the point.

 

[Silva]

Is there actually any evidence that the rebels shot the plane down? What's the latest on this?

Also, is it being considered that the Ukrainian army might have shot it down?

Yes. The rebels had already been shooting planes down, the intercepted phone calls, their leader tweeted about having shot a plane about about 5 minutes after it happened, journalists saw the weapons used in the area in the days before and the Russian army took the weapons away from them in the aftermath and are now shooting planes from within Russia. It's pretty much confirmed that it was a tragic accident caused by giving idiots who shouldn't have such weapons these weapons.

It's not.

 

[Sir Matt]

Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

(Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian rebels.

Khodakovsky blamed the Kiev authorities for provoking what may have been the missile strike that destroyed the doomed airliner, saying Kiev had deliberately launched air strikes in the area, knowing the missiles were in place.

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.

"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."

"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."



CIVILIAN FLIGHT

Washington believes that pro-Russian separatists most likely shot down the airliner "by mistake," not realising it was a civilian passenger flight, U.S. intelligence officials said.

The officials said the "most plausible explanation" for the destruction of the plane was that the separatists fired a Russian-made SA-11 - also known as a BUK - missile at it after mistaking it for another kind of aircraft.

U.S. President Barack Obama's administration has said it is convinced the airliner was brought down by an SA-11 ground-to-air missile fired from territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

Other separatist leaders have said they did not bring the Malaysian plane down. Russia has denied involvement.

Khodakovsky is a former head of the "Alpha" anti-terrorism unit of the security service in Donetsk, and one of the few major rebel commanders in Donetsk who actually hails from Ukraine rather than Russia.

There has been friction in the past between him and rebel leaders from outside the region, such as Igor Strelkov, the Muscovite who has declared himself commander of all rebel forces in Donetsk province.

Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed BUKs, but they may have been used by rebels from other units.

"The fact is, this is a theatre of military activity occupied by our, let’s say, partners in the rebel movement, with which our cooperation is somewhat conditional," he said.

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained BUKs from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.

While he said he could not be certain where the BUK system operating on rebel territory at the time of the air crash had come from, he said it may have come from Russia.

"I’m not going to say Russia gave these things or didn’t give them. Russia could have offered this BUK under some entirely local initiative. I want a BUK, and if someone offered me one, I wouldn’t turn it down. But I wouldn’t use it against something that did not threaten me. I would use it only under circumstances when there was an air attack on my positions, to protect people’s lives."

He added: "I am an interested party. I am a ‘terrorist’, a ‘separatist’, a volunteer ... In any event, I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise, say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...sis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

Edit: He's now denying all of this.

 

[Nucks]

Yes. The rebels had already been shooting planes down, the intercepted phone calls, their leader tweeted about having shot a plane about about 5 minutes after it happened, journalists saw the weapons used in the area in the days before and the Russian army took the weapons away from them in the aftermath and are now shooting planes from within Russia. It's pretty much confirmed that it was a tragic accident caused by giving idiots who shouldn't have such weapons these weapons.

It's not.

The US has come out and said that the missile originated from within separatist controlled Ukrainian territory.

I really don't understand what the US hopes to accomplish here. Moscow has clearly drawn a line in the sand and said "no further". We're not going to go to war with Russia over this. This is only going to end badly for the US because when it comes down to it, I am pretty sure Russia is willing to go to war over this and I am pretty sure we are not (we better not be in any case).

 

[Silva]

The US has come out and said that the missile originated from within separatist controlled Ukrainian territory.

I really don't understand what the US hopes to accomplish here. Moscow has clearly drawn a line in the sand and said "no further". We're not going to go to war with Russia over this. This is only going to end badly for the US because when it comes down to it, I am pretty sure Russia is willing to go to war over this and I am pretty sure we are not (we better not be in any case).

There won't be a big war over this. Crimea's part of Russia now and the rest of the Ukraine will slowly pull away from Russia's influence. There'll be a more tussling for a short while, but I don't think it'll lead to anything major. Why would Russia be willing to go to war over this? They've got as much land as they're realistically going to get out the situation.

 

[senorgregster]

Will there be any repercussions for this?

 

[Danny1982]

Will there be any repercussions for this?

Like the ones the US faced for this?

Everyone seems to have forgotten the time the U.S. shot down a passenger jet, killing 290, and then tried to cover it up

Fury and frustration still mount over the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and justly so. But before accusing Russian President Vladimir Putin of war crimes or dismissing the entire episode as a tragic fluke, it’s worth looking back at another doomed passenger plane—Iran Air Flight 655—shot down on July 3, 1988, not by some scruffy rebel on contested soil but by a U.S. Navy captain in command of an Aegis-class cruiser called the Vincennes.

A quarter-century later, the Vincennes is almost completely forgotten, but it still ranks as the world’s seventh deadliest air disaster (Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is the sixth) and one of the Pentagon’s most inexcusable disgraces.

In several ways, the two calamities are similar. The Malaysian Boeing 777 wandered into a messy civil war in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border; the Iranian Airbus A300 wandered into a naval skirmish—one of many clashes in the ongoing “Tanker War” (another forgotten conflict)—in the Strait of Hormuz. The likely pro-Russia rebel thought that he was shooting at a Ukrainian military-transport plane; the U.S. Navy captain, Will Rogers III, mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet. The Russian SA-11 surface-to-air missile that downed the Malaysian plane killed 298 passengers, including 80 children; the American SM-2 surface-to-air missile that downed the Iranian plane killed 290 passengers, including 66 children. After last week’s incident, Russian officials told various lies to cover up their culpability and blamed the Ukrainian government; after the 1988 incident, American officials told various lies and blamed the Iranian pilot. Not until eight years later did the U.S. government compensate the victims’ families, and even then expressed “deep regret,” not an apology.

...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...et-killing-290-and-then-tried-to-cover-it-up/

 

[Ryan's Beard]

So because the US got away with being terrible at war in '88, further transgressions made by other nations should also be given a free pass? There should be repercussions for this incident as their should have been for the Iranian plane.

 

[x42bn6]

The US has come out and said that the missile originated from within separatist controlled Ukrainian territory.

I really don't understand what the US hopes to accomplish here. Moscow has clearly drawn a line in the sand and said "no further". We're not going to go to war with Russia over this. This is only going to end badly for the US because when it comes down to it, I am pretty sure Russia is willing to go to war over this and I am pretty sure we are not (we better not be in any case).

Russia doesn't want to get into war. In military terms, the US dwarfs Russia alone, and with NATO, it's a no-contest.

 

[Danny1982]

So because the US got away with being terrible at war in '88, further transgressions made by other nations should also be given a free pass? There should be repercussions for this incident as their should have been for the Iranian plane.

I'm just showing you that the outrage about this incident is fake, and if it was the US who has done it we'd see excuses everywhere. It was clearly a mistake, and the everybody knows that, but the West is just trying to use this as an excuse to apply more pressure on Russia. It has nothing to do with the tragedy itself, or what a justified reaction to it should be.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

I'm just showing you that the outrage about this incident is fake, and if it was the US who has done it we'd see excuses everywhere. It was clearly a mistake, and the everybody knows that, but the West is just trying to use this as an excuse to apply more pressure on Russia. It has nothing to do with the tragedy itself, or what a justified reaction to it should be.

Well I'm not sure the outrage is fake. I find it pretty genuinely outrageous that a passenger airline was shot down, and would find it pretty outrageous whoever it was doing the shooting. I'm sure most people do, in fact.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Apart from hunting and extreme horse riding Putin has found himself a new hobby, namely shooting down civilian airplanes. Because that's just what he does on Tuesday afternoons.

 

[senorgregster]

Fake outrage? What on earth? Sorry, but nothing fake here. Near 300 people died. Should have been outrage for the previous incident too though by sounds of it that incident was down to one or a few people making mistakes. The current incident has come about through some very cool calculated decisions including providing untrained trigger happy individuals with a very dangerous weapon. The silence in Europe is deafening right now. I don't understand it.

 

[Danny1982]

Well I'm not sure the outrage is fake. I find it pretty genuinely outrageous that a passenger airline was shot down, and would find it pretty outrageous whoever it was doing the shooting. I'm sure most people do, in fact.

Fake outrage? What on earth? Sorry, but nothing fake here. Near 300 people died. Should have been outrage for the previous incident too though by sounds of it that incident was down to one or a few people making mistakes. The current incident has come about through some very cool calculated decisions including providing untrained trigger happy individuals with a very dangerous weapon. The silence in Europe is deafening right now. I don't understand it.

It's a tragedy, nobody disagrees about that, and nobody is saying that the emotions people are showing towards the victims are fake. Clearly it's very saddening to see all those innocent people who had nothing to do with the conflict at all end up being the victims like that.

However, the outrage directed at Russia and trying to politicise the issue imo is fake, hypocritical, and no more than seeking excuses to take actions they wanted to take regardless.

And you see senorgregster how you're already trying to make excuses for the US incident. If you read the details of both incidents you'll see that the US incident is far worse, for many reasons, among which that it was done by fully trained personnel with the highest technology at their disposal, which made it really hard to believe that it was just a mistake.

Won't even go into the details (like how the plane sent signals to identify itself as a civilian plane and it was still ignored (the US personnel admitted it), and how the plane was shot down within the Iranian airspace...etc.), but I thought it's probably relevant to mention here that the people responsible for that "mistake" didn't only not face any punishment, but, they received multiple honours and medals a couple of years later for their services in that exact same period.

Probably you now understand why I think all this outrage against Russia is fake.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

Probably you now understand why I think all this outrage against Russia is fake.

The politicising of the event is pretty standard fare. It's almost entirely detached from how most normal people feel about the actual tragedy. Of course US/western media will use this as anti-Putin fuel, it's to be expected. It doesn't actually exempt Russia from any part they may have had to play in it though. I'm allowed to think that it's an outrage that this plane was shot down and I'm allowed to think any Russian involvement should be looked into (for all the good it'll do). There's nothing fake about that. What the US did or didn't do doesn't matter (for what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree that it's much harder to brush the US one off as a mere mistake, they really should know better), this incident should be dealt with correctly, however incorrectly previous incidents might have been dealt with. If we refuse to handle situations because "people got away with similar things in the past" we'd have to do away with pretty much every legal system, wouldn't we.

 

[senorgregster]

I'm not making a single excuse. I'm pointing out differences in the situations which were bizarly called near identical. For what it is worth, if the story is credible, Reegan/Bush are aholes (no surprise there ) and the people involved in giving the guy medals should have been fired.

 

[JustAFan]

So because the US got away with being terrible at war in '88, further transgressions made by other nations should also be given a free pass? There should be repercussions for this incident as their should have been for the Iranian plane.

It is the Modus Operandi of many posters on the internet. Something awful happens in which some government played a role in making it happen. Somewhere along the line the discussion will turn to what some other country did at some point in the past as if it in someway makes the current guilty party less guilty. Heaven forbid they just condem the current actions, in fact they usually spend most of their time ignoring the current wrong.

 

[Danny1982]

If we refuse to handle situations because "people got away with similar things in the past" we'd have to do away with pretty much every legal system, wouldn't we.

You can't establish a "law" that will only be applied on certain people/countries. You have to be consistent in your application of the law to be able to say that we "have a law".

As things stand the excessive punishment will not send a message that downing a civilian plane is bad, it will send a message that if you want to get away with downing a civilian plane then you have to be on the West side. So you're not really applying any "laws" or doing any justice, you're just trying to force the other countries in the world to be on the West side, or else there will be a whole new set of rules ready to be applied only on them.

And by the way, I never said the people responsible should not be punished. If you ask me what a suitable punishment would be (considering earlier incidents), then it would holding the personnel responsible accountable, compensating the families (I understand it won't bring back the victims, but that's how the world is dealing with situations like these), compensating the airline company, in addition to a public apology. (which is by the way already far more than what the US did following that incident)

 

[Danny1982]

It is the Modus Operandi of many posters on the internet. Something awful happens in which some government played a role in making it happen. Somewhere along the line the discussion will turn to what some other country did at some point in the past as if it in someway makes the current guilty party less guilty. Heaven forbid they just condem the current actions, in fact they usually spend most of their time ignoring the current wrong.

It's clear why you don't like it when people bring up those issues, because it exposes the hypocrisy of the "moral high position" some want to take here.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It's still Russia 3 USA 1 in the shooting down civillian aircaft stakes.

 

[JustAFan]

It's clear why you don't like it when people bring up those issues, because it exposes the hypocrisy of the "moral high position" some want to take here.

yeah that is clearly what I meant.
Reaches over and pats little Danny on the head.

 

[Silva]

It's clear why you don't like it when people bring up those issues, because it exposes the hypocrisy of the "moral high position" some want to take here.

Unless someone here was actively involved in the US shooting down that plane, and it's fair to assume we weren't, there's literally zero hypocrisy in the condemnation from here.

 

[Snowjoe]

It's still Russia 3 USA 1 in the shooting down civillian aircaft stakes.

For what it's worth I can't see much happening, the passengers families will get a payout, and stern words will be exchanged until the rest of the public move on.

 

[JustAFan]

It's still Russia 3 USA 1 in the shooting down civillian aircaft stakes.

Though it does raise the question were their massive repurcussions against any of the countries/rebel groups (or their supporters) that have done this in the past?

This article lists a few such incidents, prior to the latest

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2014/07/17/glance-airliners-that-have-been-shot-down

 

[Ryan's Beard]

You can't establish a "law" that will only be applied on certain people/countries. You have to be consistent in your application of the law to be able to say that we "have a law".

As things stand the excessive punishment will not send a message that downing a civilian plane is bad, it will send a message that if you want to get away with downing a civilian plane then you have to be on the West side. So you're not really applying any "laws" or doing any justice, you're just trying to force the other countries in the world to be on the West side, or else there will be a whole new set of rules ready to be applied only on them.

And by the way, I never said the people responsible should not be punished. If you ask me what a suitable punishment would be (considering earlier incidents), then it would holding the personnel responsible accountable, compensating the families (I understand it won't bring back the victims, but that's how the world is dealing with situations like these), compensating the airline company, in addition to a public apology. (which is by the way already far more than what the US did following that incident)

I'm not calling for excessive punishment at all. I'm saying the fact that the USA got away with shooting down a passenger airliner bares no relevance to this incident of shooting down a passenger airliner. This incident should be handled correctly. The fact that any and all previous similar incidents may have been incorrectly handled does not change that. You're on some weird anti-west train here which unfortunately doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

 

[JustAFan]

Two wrong don't make a right. And that should about end the discussion.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

Yeh, what JAF said.

 

[Danny1982]

I'm not calling for excessive punishment at all. I'm saying the fact that the USA got away with shooting down a passenger airliner bares no relevance to this incident of shooting down a passenger airliner. This incident should be handled correctly. The fact that any and all previous similar incidents may have been incorrectly handled does not change that. You're on some weird anti-west train here which unfortunately doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

My posts aren't personal, so weren't directed at you personally. I discuss opinions, and since we seem to agree here, I don't see where the big problem is in what I said. My posts were directed at the people who think the world should take unprecedented measures/punishments in this case. If that puts me on an anti-West train then be it.