[dirkey]

I've not mentioned Kagawa once.

Yep. Seems like someone just has some issues around Kagawa. Perhaps you once mentioned that Kagawa wasn't the greatest footballer on the planet. That would be enough to get you called part of the anti-Kagawa brigade on the caf these days.

 

[SirFergie]

I know, but it just seems surreal. It sounds like we didn't do anything ourselves, as if we've been battered for 90 minutes and they've not even been remotely lucky.

Quite a worry.

Well to be fair we made serious errors which they capitalised on so they at least played well enough to capitalise on our errors.

 

[Mato87]

It's funny I predicted Evans to feck up everything gloriously in this match, Iam a wizard

 

[FujiVice]

I was still gutted about this performance this morning. Then I watched this.

Seriously you forget all about it and smile. What's hilarious is, they are seconds away from half time and they are in possession. You find something funnier each time you watch it.

 

[Samrat Mazumdar]

Haahahaha, I think Fideo needs more time to train and may be on the subs for the Burnley game

 

[Samrat Mazumdar]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ted-s-problems-started-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html

Hits the nail on the head

 

[Aussie_Red_Devil]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ted-s-problems-started-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html

Hits the nail on the head

Their list of flops is very debatable.

 

[Arul]

1. Januzaj, Kagawa and Mata in the same XI would be a disaster. None of them really offer anything defensively, so a team that already looks vulnerable on the counter would be left even more open at the back.

2. They obviously do. Kagawa has barely been able to help with that in his time here. A good 10 minutes against MK Dons before getting injured is hardly an advert for his skills.

3. Kagawa can't play No. 8. LVG has said as much. He tried him in the midfield two and said he wasn't good enough.

4. Nani's not even at the club anymore. Again though, Kagawa has been awful on the wing, and in a system that's been using wing-backs instead of wingers, he'd probably manage to be even worse.

5. I don't think anyone wants Hernandez at the club anymore so this point is redundant. Clearly any strike partnership including Hernandez doesn't work, which is why I think we'll see him gone soon.

6. Kagawa has been given two seasons worth of chances in central midfield, on the wing, up front, and in his favoured No. 10, and he's been bang average everywhere apart from the odd game.

Thanks for the reply, but I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. My opinions are based on hindsight, after the last 2 PL games and focusing on LvG's team and philosophy. Imagine you had a time machine and could sit beside LvG in the dugout and advice him during the last 2 games...

1. Janujaz, Nani and Mata were in the same X1 against Swansea when looking for a goal...Kagawa would have been worse than Nani? You would have supported the decision to bring Nani in as a sub instead of Kagawa?

2 & 3. Are you implying here that Cleverly and Fletcher's performance against Swansea was better than anything Kagawa would have done in their positions? Sure, the no 8 is not Kagawa's natural position and he will not perform his best there, but worse than Cleverly in that match?

4. Nani was used in the game against Swansea. As awful as Kagawa's stats may be when playing on the wing, the impact on the rest of the team with their passing and keeping possession would surely improve because of his movement and showing for the ball...or do you disagree?

5. I actually do want Hernandez to stay, I think he is a great poacher and will easily provide 15 goals a season, while willing to sit on the bench for most of the season. My issue was starting him in the Swansea game with Rooney alongside him, when Rooney was also clearly given orders to stay higher up and spearhead the attack, which meant we had a narrow point of attack. Kagawa in Hernandez's place would have offered more movement and support for Mata with the ball.

6. It does not matter what your opinion of Kagawa's contribution over the past 2 years have been...we are talking about a new manager who is supposed to be giving every player a new chance to prove himself. He has players like Young and Cleverly in his starting XI, so I don't think you can use that particular excuse here.

All I am trying to say is that whatever your opinion on Kagawa is, he is a player who is built to play in a quick, short passing system with lots of off the ball movement. As such, my personal opinion is he would offer a lot more to the team if it is planning to move to a possession based, attacking style (compared to Nani, Hernandez or Cleverly at least)...regardless of his position in the lineup.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Mata has been about as productive in 17 games for United than Kagawa has been in 50. Kagawa's been consistently crap and two good games changes nothing.



The rest of the post was just babble.

1. Januzaj, Kagawa and Mata in the same XI would be a disaster. None of them really offer anything defensively, so a team that already looks vulnerable on the counter would be left even more open at the back.

2. They obviously do. Kagawa has barely been able to help with that in his time here. A good 10 minutes against MK Dons before getting injured is hardly an advert for his skills.

3. Kagawa can't play No. 8. LVG has said as much. He tried him in the midfield two and said he wasn't good enough.

4. Nani's not even at the club anymore. Again though, Kagawa has been awful on the wing, and in a system that's been using wing-backs instead of wingers, he'd probably manage to be even worse.

5. I don't think anyone wants Hernandez at the club anymore so this point is redundant. Clearly any strike partnership including Hernandez doesn't work, which is why I think we'll see him gone soon.

6. Kagawa has been given two seasons worth of chances in central midfield, on the wing, up front, and in his favoured No. 10, and he's been bang average everywhere apart from the odd game. I'm not real

The akward moment when you realized Mata had no assist nor goal when he played on the wing for us and was so shit. At least Kagawa made 3 assists while playing on the wing and not to mention numerous chances he created that was missed by Welbeck and Smalling against Swansea, Hernandez against Newcastle, Rvp and Rooney against R. Sociedad or the pass that resulted into a penalty against A. Villa e.t.c.
And you're right Kagawa aint a second striker like Mata is, he's a damn playmaker who make play happen and not someone padding up stats for the sake of it. And when you keep playing a playmaker on the wing who consistently drop into the midfield to orchestrate play last season, then the last thing you should expect is goals from him in that deep position.

I'm happy you said he has been shoehorned into various position. Maybe Mata should be given the same treatment to see what will come out of him.
Let me ask you how many times he has played in his best position? I bet it couldn't more than 5 times. And I know everytime Kagawa played in his position, he has repeatedly been the best player on the pitch. For example his debut season games against Everton, Norwich, Southampton, last season Swansea, Bayern and the 20 mins he had in that position against R. Sociedad. That can't be said for Mata though.
In short, out of the 44+ games he had played for us, only 5-6 of them were in his position. What a shame!

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Interesting you name me, given i mentioned him not once in this game. What I have said, repeatedly, about kagawa is that he has been average in a red shirt, and that Mata is better. If that's only seeing what I want to see, then sue me. People who love him are so sensitive to the slightest criticism.

Mata also has played in his position consistently for more than 12 times now compared to Kagawa who rarely had that opportunity.
The funny thing is he was better than Mata in the games they played together last season, despite Kagawa being deployed on the wing with Mata in the centre, such as the games against Westham, Newcastles, Aston Villa, Mancity, Everton e.t.c.
Isn't it funny that Mata became shit for Chelsea the moment Mourinho gave him Kagawa's treatment?

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

It's somewhat ironic coming from the Kagawa Fan Club. They're all singing his praises after an alright ten minutes against MK Dons, but seem to have missed the majority of the last two seasons where he's been average at best. I posted it in the Kagawa thread, but I'll repeat it here for their benefit. Mata, in just 17 appearances, has already assisted and scored 11 goals, split 7 goals and 4 assists. Kagawa, in 50 appearances, has assisted and scored 14, split 6 goals and 8 assists. When you keep in mind that half of his goals came in one game, he's been incredibly unproductive, and he certainly doesn't offer a lot to our overall play.

Mata played in his position, isn't it?
Mata has played in his favoured position and has been given so much trust by having no competition whatsoever, even when he's been repeatedly poor compared to Kagawa who had none of this opportunity, even when he's had the game of his life. For example, Kagawa was arguably the best player on the pitch against Swansea last season yet was benched for the next game. That's how Kagawa has been treated so far.
Should I remind you that out of the 4 assists Mata made, 2 were a 25 yard goal scored by Young and another wonder goal scored by Rvp. The only fantastic pass I remembered he made was the backheel for Januzaj's goal against Newcastle and a throughball for Rvp in another.
If by scoring just goals and being useless in the remaining minutes is your defination of a playmaker, then it's a shame!

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

I've not mentioned Kagawa once.

Apology, wanted to write @Twigginater.

 

[Wumminator]

Apology, wanted to write @Twigginater.

Your name and posts are the worst things I've ever seen (this is based on the last few posts, one of which started "that awkward moment when..). If you must write dozens of posts on the value of Kagawa over Mata please don't tag me in them as I really do not care. Mata is the better player and should start every time.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Yep. Seems like someone just has some issues around Kagawa. Perhaps you once mentioned that Kagawa wasn't the greatest footballer on the planet. That would be enough to get you called part of the anti-Kagawa brigade on the caf these days.

The anti-Kagawa brigade came into existence because of people like you who continues to put him down, even he has just had a good game.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Your name and posts are the worst things I've ever seen (this is based on the last few posts, one of which started "that awkward moment when..). If you must write dozens of posts on the value of Kagawa over Mata please don't tag me in them as I really do not care. Mata is the better player and should start every time.

And what will you do if I keep tagging you?
It still doesn't change the fact that Mata is a damn second striker and not a playmaker!

 

[Wumminator]

And what will you do if I keep tagging you?
It still doesn't change the fact that Mata is a damn second striker and not a playmaker!

I don't even see the difference between the two and don't care about the difference.

 

[Steven Seagull]

T Banty has been banned before I think. For being like this

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

I don't even see the difference between the two and don't care about the difference.

What qualities makes you think Mata is better than Kagawa, apart from being a good set pieces taker?
As far as I know, whenever Kagawa played in his position, he doesn't just create, he makes the whole play happen. For example, his performance against Bayern and Swansea were performance that trump anything Mata ever did in the no 10 role for us. Compared to Mata, every play went through Kagawa in those games.
I'm not even advocating for Kagawa and I really want him to leave Manutd for his own good but the truth remains that everytime he has had the opportunity to play as a no 10, he has been the best on the pitch.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

T Banty has been banned before I think. For being like this

For voicing an opinion?

 

[Alex99]

This t.banty bloke is a right nutter.

 

[Arul]

Your name and posts are the worst things I've ever seen (this is based on the last few posts, one of which started "that awkward moment when..). If you must write dozens of posts on the value of Kagawa over Mata please don't tag me in them as I really do not care. Mata is the better player and should start every time.

If you are happy with his performances against Swansea and Sunderland, and thinks he deserves no competition for his place in the team, then I guess you are right.

Still doesn't mean Kagawa shouldn't be given a run in the team (in any position available) to help improve the team's performances, especially in terms of possession and movement. Unless you are happy with the team's performances the past 3 games too?

Then I have to say I have doubts if you really are a Utd fan...

 

[dirkey]

The anti-Kagawa brigade came into existence because of people like you who continues to put him down, even he has just had a good game.

Please read back my posts. I don't continually put him down. He's a fine squad player. He's not better than Mata and had been only ok in his time at United.

 

[Wumminator]

If you are happy with his performances against Swansea and Sunderland, and thinks he deserves no competition for his place in the team, then I guess you are right.

Still doesn't mean Kagawa shouldn't be given a run in the team (in any position available) to help improve the team's performances, especially in terms of possession and movement. Unless you are happy with the team's performances the past 3 games too?

Then I have to say I have doubts if you really are a Utd fan...

I don't think Kagawa could improve it. Neither did Moyes. Neither does LVG by the looks of it.

Let Kagawa go.

 

[Alex99]

The akward moment when you realized Mata had no assist nor goal when he played on the wing for us and was so shit. At least Kagawa made 3 assists while playing on the wing and not to mention numerous chances he created that was missed by Welbeck and Smalling against Swansea, Hernandez against Newcastle, Rvp and Rooney against R. Sociedad or the pass that resulted into a penalty against A. Villa e.t.c.
And you're right Kagawa aint a second striker like Mata is, he's a damn playmaker who make play happen and not someone padding up stats for the sake of it. And when you keep playing a playmaker on the wing who consistently drop into the midfield to orchestrate play last season, then the last thing you should expect is goals from him in that deep position.

I'm happy you said he has been shoehorned into various position. Maybe Mata should be given the same treatment to see what will come out of him.
Let me ask you how many times he has played in his best position? I bet it couldn't more than 5 times. And I know everytime Kagawa played in his position, he has repeatedly been the best player on the pitch. For example his debut season games against Everton, Norwich, Southampton, last season Swansea, Bayern and the 20 mins he had in that position against R. Sociedad. That can't be said for Mata though.
In short, out of the 44+ games he had played for us, only 5-6 of them were in his position. What a shame!

Did you watch United last season? Mata played pretty much every game on the wing, which is something Moyes got heavily criticised for. Mata's been shoved on either wing and in midfield as well, the difference is that he's actually looked like he gives a shit whereas Kagawa looks like he'd rather be somewhere else most of the time.

You need to get your head out of Kagawa's arse. He's been nothing but average wherever he's played. At the end of the day, Kagawa's played 50 games for United, scored half of his goals in one game, and made only a handful of assists despite being this amazing playmaker. If he's such a good playmaker, why is he incapable of producing anything when not played as a No. 10? I also think it's pretty shit that he can literally only play there.

Mata played in his position, isn't it?
Mata has played in his favoured position and has been given so much trust by having no competition whatsoever, even when he's been repeatedly poor compared to Kagawa who had none of this opportunity, even when he's had the game of his life. For example, Kagawa was arguably the best player on the pitch against Swansea last season yet was benched for the next game. That's how Kagawa has been treated so far.
Should I remind you that out of the 4 assists Mata made, 2 were a 25 yard goal scored by Young and another wonder goal scored by Rvp. The only fantastic pass I remembered he made was the backheel for Januzaj's goal against Newcastle and a throughball for Rvp in another.
If by scoring just goals and being useless in the remaining minutes is your defination of a playmaker, then it's a shame!

Seriously, Mata hasn't played No. 10 for the majority of his time here. There's a reason people have been excited to see him there under LVG, and that's because Moyes kept playing him on the wing. Mata's been almost as productive in 17 games as Kagawa has been in 50. There must be a reason that Moyes and now LVG don't fancy him, and let's be honest, SAF wasn't exactly his biggest fan.

You're a nutter.

 

[Alex99]

Thanks for the reply, but I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. My opinions are based on hindsight, after the last 2 PL games and focusing on LvG's team and philosophy. Imagine you had a time machine and could sit beside LvG in the dugout and advice him during the last 2 games...

1. Janujaz, Nani and Mata were in the same X1 against Swansea when looking for a goal...Kagawa would have been worse than Nani? You would have supported the decision to bring Nani in as a sub instead of Kagawa?

2 & 3. Are you implying here that Cleverly and Fletcher's performance against Swansea was better than anything Kagawa would have done in their positions? Sure, the no 8 is not Kagawa's natural position and he will not perform his best there, but worse than Cleverly in that match?

4. Nani was used in the game against Swansea. As awful as Kagawa's stats may be when playing on the wing, the impact on the rest of the team with their passing and keeping possession would surely improve because of his movement and showing for the ball...or do you disagree?

5. I actually do want Hernandez to stay, I think he is a great poacher and will easily provide 15 goals a season, while willing to sit on the bench for most of the season. My issue was starting him in the Swansea game with Rooney alongside him, when Rooney was also clearly given orders to stay higher up and spearhead the attack, which meant we had a narrow point of attack. Kagawa in Hernandez's place would have offered more movement and support for Mata with the ball.

6. It does not matter what your opinion of Kagawa's contribution over the past 2 years have been...we are talking about a new manager who is supposed to be giving every player a new chance to prove himself. He has players like Young and Cleverly in his starting XI, so I don't think you can use that particular excuse here.

All I am trying to say is that whatever your opinion on Kagawa is, he is a player who is built to play in a quick, short passing system with lots of off the ball movement. As such, my personal opinion is he would offer a lot more to the team if it is planning to move to a possession based, attacking style (compared to Nani, Hernandez or Cleverly at least)...regardless of his position in the lineup.

1. Kagawa has barely ever, if ever, done anything of use on the wing. Nani wasn't exactly the man to bring on, but I've not seen anything from Kagawa to suggest that he'd have turned the game for us.

2. Again, I've not seen anything from Kagawa that has shown that he's a game changing player. Whatever supposed attributes he has, I don't think dictating and increasing the pace of play is one of them.

3. Like I said, LVG has said he wanted to play Kagawa in a midfield two and he wasn't good enough. If he can't play there, he can't play there. You seem to live in a fantasy land where Kagawa posses a load of skills that in reality he lacks.

4. Nani played wing-back, a position that Kagawa would be awful in. Nani was shite too, but at least he's a natural winger. Playing a bloke who seems to only be play in about 20 square yards in the middle of the pitch at wing-back would be a disaster.

5. Hernandez can easily provide 15 goals a season? What planet do you live on. He's only managed 15 goals in a season once for us, and that was in his first season, 4 years ago, spread across all competitions. He's regressed a great deal since then, and only managed 4 last season. He also doesn't appear very content with sitting on the bench. Kagawa can't play up front so I'm not sure why you think he'd be able to do the job of a striker.

6. He has been given a chance though. LVG clearly doesn't think he's good enough to start as No. 10, nor does he think he's good enough to be a wing-back, and after trying him in midfield, he doesn't think he's good enough to play there either. Young had a good preseason so LVG's probably hoping he can replicate that in the league, and Cleverley plays in a position that we severely lack strength in, so his starting is more to do with a lack of options than anything else. They also both play in positions that Kagawa can't play in, so them starting makes no difference to how often Kagawa features.

As repeated time and time again by Kagawa's little fan club, he's basically a very limited player. He can play in one position in one system, and that's it. If you play him anywhere else or in a different system, he's average at best. He's not good enough to build a team around, and even if you were to play the system you think he's best in, I still don't think there's room for him and Mata, and I'd much rather play Mata.

You also need to stop mentioning these other players. Hernandez is finished, Nani's already gone, and Cleverley plays in a position that LVG himself has said Kagawa was shit in. One minute you're all saying that he has to play No. 10 to be any good, and the next you're saying he should be playing up front, on the wing, or in midfield. The guy's not good enough, and that's it.

Anyway, this has bugger all to do with MK Dons so I suggest that if you want to continue this we move it to the Kagawa thread.

 

[Samrat Mazumdar]

Kagawa is the Japanese Anderson

 

[Alex99]

Kagawa is the Japanese Anderson

At least Anderson was pretty good in his first couple of seasons.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Please read back my posts. I don't continually put him down. He's a fine squad player. He's not better than Mata and had been only ok in his time at United.

What qualities makes Mata a better player than Kagawa?
If we talk of their technical skills, Kagawa is the better player because he's better on the ball and a better dribbler than Mata against pressing teams.
His debut game against a physical Everton side and last season performance against a pressing Bayern side are testament to how good his technique is. Even in the game against City and Everton last season, Kagawa was the only player who look more assured on the ball while Mata was horrible in that game.
On their vision, I already made my opinion known on Mata's vision. Apart from his backheel for Januzaj against Newcastle and a throughball for Rvp in another, I haven't seen any fantastic pass made by him in Manutd's shirt. I would just say their vision level are more or less the same.
On their ability to control the tempo of a team, Kagawa is the better. In addition, Kagawa offers agility, movement, defensive awareness and better control than Mata, so what exactly does Mata offer? I would admit Mata has the best noses for goal, the best in the team by the way but that's not a suprise, considering he started his career as a striker but that's not what a playmaker's job entails.

 

[Samrat Mazumdar]

At least Anderson was pretty good in his first couple of seasons.

Ok, Kagawa is the new Anderson (2012 onwards)

 

[Moriarty]

Ok, Kagawa is the new Anderson (2012 onwards)

Bit on the slim side for that isn't he?

 

[Alex99]

Bit on the slim side for that isn't he?

Anderson (2012 onwards) Pocket Edition.

 

[dirkey]

What qualities makes Mata a better player than Kagawa?
If we talk of their technical skills, Kagawa is the better player because he's better on the ball and a better dribbler than Mata against pressing teams.
His debut game against a physical Everton side and last season performance against a pressing Bayern side are testament to how good his technique is. Even in the game against City and Everton last season, Kagawa was the only player who look more assured on the ball while Mata was horrible in that game.
On their vision, I already made my opinion known on Mata's vision. Apart from his backheel for Januzaj against Newcastle and a throughball for Rvp in another, I haven't seen any fantastic pass made by him in Manutd's shirt. I would just say their vision level are more or less the same.
On their ability to control the tempo of a team, Kagawa is the better. In addition, Kagawa offers agility, movement, defensive awareness and better control than Mata, so what exactly does Mata offer? I would admit Mata has the best noses for goal, the best in the team by the way but that's not a suprise, considering he started his career as a striker but that's not what a playmaker's job entails.

He's just more effective all over the pitch. He scores more, he assists more. He gets on the ball and is willing to look for forward passes all the time. He basically has balls. Kagawa has lots of technique, and ability, don't get me wrong, but my main concern and problem with him, is that he just doesn't have the balls to be the playmaker for United. He looks scared, mostly, when he's out there. At times he will play the odd beautiful ball, but then he'll turn around and mostly just keep the ball safe by simple, safe, backwards passes. Mata is just more dangerous, more effective. To me, Mata believes that a team should be built around him, and thrives when it is. If it isn't, he'll still go out there and be effective. I feel with Kagawa, when he's made the main playmaker, he doesn't thrive (in a red shirt anyway) and as others have said, he wilts when played out of position.

With regard to performances, I like how you cherry pick the odd game here or there where Kagawa has been better than Mata, or has performed well. Don't get me wrong, Mata hasn't been great in all his games in a United shirt, I'll never say that, about any player. But he has had many fine games, and he has been moved around a lot. He's shown more already in half a season with United than Kagawa has in 2, in my opinion.

Luckily, our opinion counts for nothing. But, it seems Louis agrees, because from day 1, Mata has been his number 1 for the role.

I'm not going to reply any more on this, because this is a thread I hadn't been active in at all until you managed to name check me, and this is completely and utterly off topic. You prefer Kagawa, I prefer Mata. I've read every reason you have for it, and don't agree. You're not going to agree with mine, and we're both allowed to have an opinion.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

Did you watch United last season? Mata played pretty much every game on the wing, which is something Moyes got heavily criticised for. Mata's been shoved on either wing and in midfield as well, the difference is that he's actually looked like he gives a shit whereas Kagawa looks like he'd rather be somewhere else most of the time.

You need to get your head out of Kagawa's arse. He's been nothing but average wherever he's played. At the end of the day, Kagawa's played 50 games for United, scored half of his goals in one game, and made only a handful of assists despite being this amazing playmaker. If he's such a good playmaker, why is he incapable of producing anything when not played as a No. 10? I also think it's pretty shit that he can literally only play there.



Seriously, Mata hasn't played No. 10 for the majority of his time here. There's a reason people have been excited to see him there under LVG, and that's because Moyes kept playing him on the wing. Mata's been almost as productive in 17 games as Kagawa has been in 50. There must be a reason that Moyes and now LVG don't fancy him, and let's be honest, SAF wasn't exactly his biggest fan.

You're a nutter.

Mata only played 2-3 games on the wing last season which he was shit by the way and had Moyes cupping majority of the blame for playing him on the wing. After those 3 games, Mata was consistently deployed in the no 10 role last season except for the 1st half match against City. So I don't know what you're talking about.
Even after Mata was deployed in the centre, he was still shit not until Moyes had Kagawa playing with him and it was Kagawa who constantly drop deep into the midfield to support him. That should tell you the difference between Kagawa and Mata, one is a playmaker while the other is a second striker.
Out of the 50 games you said Kagawa had played for us, isn't it pathetic Kagawa only had 5-6 games in his preferred position? Also, he's only started 28 games in the premier league for two season!
Lastly, I still don't get how Van gaal came into the conclusion that he doesn't fit his philosophy when he was one of our best players in the pre-season. He was also better than Mata despite playing with the B-team. If I go with my inner gut, I would say Van Gaal haven't gotten over the fact that Dortmund usurped his Bayern team which led to his dismissal and Kagawa was part of that Dortmund team!

 

[pierrethesnack]

What qualities makes you think Mata is better than Kagawa, apart from being a good set pieces taker?

The most important: efficiency.

Mata assists and scores even when he seems to have dropped out of the game. Kagawa doesn't.

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

He's just more effective all over the pitch. He scores more, he assists more. He gets on the ball and is willing to look for forward passes all the time. He basically has balls. Kagawa has lots of technique, and ability, don't get me wrong, but my main concern and problem with him, is that he just doesn't have the balls to be the playmaker for United. He looks scared, mostly, when he's out there. At times he will play the odd beautiful ball, but then he'll turn around and mostly just keep the ball safe by simple, safe, backwards passes. Mata is just more dangerous, more effective. To me, Mata believes that a team should be built around him, and thrives when it is. If it isn't, he'll still go out there and be effective. I feel with Kagawa, when he's made the main playmaker, he doesn't thrive (in a red shirt anyway) and as others have said, he wilts when played out of position.

With regard to performances, I like how you cherry pick the odd game here or there where Kagawa has been better than Mata, or has performed well. Don't get me wrong, Mata hasn't been great in all his games in a United shirt, I'll never say that, about any player. But he has had many fine games, and he has been moved around a lot. He's shown more already in half a season with United than Kagawa has in 2, in my opinion.

Luckily, our opinion counts for nothing. But, it seems Louis agrees, because from day 1, Mata has been his number 1 for the role.

I'm not going to reply any more on this, because this is a thread I hadn't been active in at all until you managed to name check me, and this is completely and utterly off topic. You prefer Kagawa, I prefer Mata. I've read every reason you have for it, and don't agree. You're not going to agree with mine, and we're both allowed to have an opinion.

How many times have Kagawa been deployed as a playmaker for you to come to that conclusion? You can't buy a car and then proceed to drives it through a jungle and when it fails to work, you come to the conclusion that it wouldn't have work on the road anyway. I can even count the games Kagawa was deployed as a playmaker, that's how bad it is!
You said I tends to cherrypick Kagawa's game but majority of the game I talked about were game both him and Mata were involved.

 

[FergieYouBeauty]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ted-s-problems-started-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html

Hits the nail on the head

Jesus, we truly were spoiled by fergy to the point that we weren't satisfied with what he did during his tenure because he still isn't winning trophies once he retired

seriously, wtf?

 

[Diadem @t.banty]

The most important: efficiency.

Mata assists and scores even when he seems to have dropped out of the game. Kagawa doesn't.

Mata also have the luxury of playing in his favoured position and had the trust of the manager compared to Kagawa who has none of these.
Kagawa created numerous chances in the preseason when he managed to play his preferred position, didn't he? That's why every club, especially Manutd should deploy player in their best position because they wouldn't have take a look at the player in the first place if the player's previous team were shoehorning him into different roles.
What you also failed to notice is Kagawa doesn't only create but also, he controls and dictate the game which can't be said of Mata.

 

[DanBorja]

1. Kagawa has barely ever, if ever, done anything of use on the wing. Nani wasn't exactly the man to bring on, but I've not seen anything from Kagawa to suggest that he'd have turned the game for us.

2. Again, I've not seen anything from Kagawa that has shown that he's a game changing player. Whatever supposed attributes he has, I don't think dictating and increasing the pace of play is one of them.

3. Like I said, LVG has said he wanted to play Kagawa in a midfield two and he wasn't good enough. If he can't play there, he can't play there. You seem to live in a fantasy land where Kagawa posses a load of skills that in reality he lacks.

4. Nani played wing-back, a position that Kagawa would be awful in. Nani was shite too, but at least he's a natural winger. Playing a bloke who seems to only be play in about 20 square yards in the middle of the pitch at wing-back would be a disaster.

5. Hernandez can easily provide 15 goals a season? What planet do you live on. He's only managed 15 goals in a season once for us, and that was in his first season, 4 years ago, spread across all competitions. He's regressed a great deal since then, and only managed 4 last season. He also doesn't appear very content with sitting on the bench. Kagawa can't play up front so I'm not sure why you think he'd be able to do the job of a striker.

6. He has been given a chance though. LVG clearly doesn't think he's good enough to start as No. 10, nor does he think he's good enough to be a wing-back, and after trying him in midfield, he doesn't think he's good enough to play there either. Young had a good preseason so LVG's probably hoping he can replicate that in the league, and Cleverley plays in a position that we severely lack strength in, so his starting is more to do with a lack of options than anything else. They also both play in positions that Kagawa can't play in, so them starting makes no difference to how often Kagawa features.

As repeated time and time again by Kagawa's little fan club, he's basically a very limited player. He can play in one position in one system, and that's it. If you play him anywhere else or in a different system, he's average at best. He's not good enough to build a team around, and even if you were to play the system you think he's best in, I still don't think there's room for him and Mata, and I'd much rather play Mata.

You also need to stop mentioning these other players. Hernandez is finished, Nani's already gone, and Cleverley plays in a position that LVG himself has said Kagawa was shit in. One minute you're all saying that he has to play No. 10 to be any good, and the next you're saying he should be playing up front, on the wing, or in midfield. The guy's not good enough, and that's it.

Anyway, this has bugger all to do with MK Dons so I suggest that if you want to continue this we move it to the Kagawa thread.

You got it wrong mate, I think Hernandez got 20 goals in his first season, 8 or 12 (not sure about that one) on his second season where he struggled with injuries, and got 18 goals in his 3rd season (his best season imo, covered RVP's injury to perfection), then Moyes got in and he barely even touched the field.

How do you expect him to score goals, when Moyes only gave him 15 mins per month while playing sh*t football? As we all now Hernandez needs a good team behind him, because he wont be there to contribute properly in the build up. Hernandez is a good asset when having a decent team behind him.

Sadly, he belongs now to a team that hasn't been able to play proper football in over a year, so his deficiencies in his game are much more hurtful to the team when he is playing. I really hope Hernandez leaves the club, for the sake of both parties.

EDIT: Just looked up his season goals...

1st season: 20 goals
2nd season: 12 goals
3rd season: 18 goals
Moyes season: 9 goals

So there you go, I'm guessing you are the one living on another planet. Cheers!

 

[pierrethesnack]

Mata also have the luxury of playing in his favoured position and had the trust of the manager compared to Kagawa who has none of these.
Kagawa created numerous chances in the preseason when he managed to play his preferred position, didn't he? That's why every club, especially Manutd should deploy player in their best position because they wouldn't have take a look at the player in the first place if the player's previous team were shoehorning him into different roles.
What you also failed to notice is Kagawa doesn't only create but also, he controls and dictate the game which can't be said of Mata.

Kagawa has played in his favoured position quite a few times, and hasn't been convincing. No, he hasn't been bad, but he simply hasn't been good enough, just as he has said himself.

Yes, he created some chances in preseason. Fletcher also plaid well in preseason, does that mean that he should start every game as well?

As for Kagawa controlling and dictating the play...I simply don't agree. He's got quite the engine, but he is not very influential. LvG also said that he tried playing him in the CM role in preseason, but that he just didn't do well enough.

Look, I have nothing against Kagawa. I think he could be better than Mata if he really could get things going, but he just doesn't seem to be able to do it. If he were 18, it would be different, but he's 25 and has been at United for a while now. The club doesn't have time to wait for him, and with Mata, Januzaj and Rooney for competition, I'm afraid time has run out.

 

[pierrethesnack]

How do you expect him to score goals, when Moyes only gave him 15 mins per month while playing sh*t football? As we all now Hernandez needs a good team behind him, because he wont be there to contribute properly in the build up. Hernandez is a good asset when having a decent team behind him.

Finally someone who gets it I'm surprised at how many people don't seem to understand this.

It's just as silly as blaming de Gea for conceding too many goals last season. A keeper needs a good defense just as a poacher needs suppliers.