Emma Watson on Feminism

[Madthinker]

Women tend to prefer "nicely used men". In other words, a lot of the men who get divorced, re-marry. I belive roughly 80% of women get married/have children, opposed to 60% of men. And the number is going down for men, while staying the same for women.

Without going into numbers, it seems like improbably high difference to me.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

Well this thread well and truly conformed to the "Thread about femenism" template didn't it.

 

[fishfingers15]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/29/livin...r=fb092914emmawatsonboyletter1230pVODtopPhoto

I think some of those points by the 15 year old guy were discussed in the Caf

 

[Andrew~]

Okay, just heard some inserts from her speech. She's an idiot. Not even a proper feminist.

 

[Eboue]

We got a live one!

 

[Andrew~]

We got a live one!

Update me, I neglected to read the entire thread so I need to know which side I need to take.

 

[Eboue]

Do your own reading.

 

[rcoobc]

Update me, I neglected to read the entire thread so I need to know which side I need to take.

You literally only have to read the original post. Post # 1.

After that you can form an opinion. That has to be the prerequisite to any sort of discussion. Just read a 1000 word speech which is 1 mouse click away.

 

[Andrew~]

As if I'm about to sit here trolling through 12 pages.

You literally only have to read the original post. Post # 1.

After that you can form an opinion. That has to be the prerequisite to any sort of discussion. Just read a 1000 word speech which is 1 mouse click away.

I listened to the speech. Didn't enjoy it. What next?

 

[rcoobc]

I listened to the speech. Didn't enjoy it. What next?

Get rid of your defensive attitude and put across a thought provoking point using English GCSE level discussion techniques such as: "whilst so and so believe this and this I disagree with them for these reasons:"

 

[rcoobc]

For what it's worth @Andrew~ (how the feck do you do that squiggle) during the discussion in the first 8 pages or so on here, my personal views on feminism slowly shifted. The caf doesnt have to be a constant wind-up forum.

 

[Shamwow]

Okay, just heard some inserts from her speech. She's an idiot. Not even a proper feminist.

Which parts of her speech did you disagree with and why?

Which parts did you think made her sound like an idiot?

 

[Andrew~]

Get rid of your defensive attitude and put across a thought provoking point using English GCSE level discussion techniques such as: "whilst so and so believe this and this I disagree with them for these reasons:"

A speech which has statements like this:

"When at 15 my girlfriends started dropping out of their sports teams because they didn’t want to appear “muscly. ...I decided I was a feminist...”

does not merit any kind of serious response.

 

[Andrew~]

For what it's worth @Andrew~ (how the feck do you do that squiggle) during the discussion in the first 8 pages or so on here, my personal views on feminism slowly shifted. The caf doesnt have to be a constant wind-up forum.

Fair. The squiggle is on European keyboards I think.

 

[Shamwow]

A speech which has statements like this:

"When at 15 my girlfriends started dropping out of their sports teams because they didn’t want to appear “muscly. ...I decided I was a feminist...”

does not merit any kind of serious response.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Andrew~]

What's wrong with that?

Everything. It's like saying you became a feminist because too many women chose to be stay at home mums rather than chase careers.

It's their fecking choice.

 

[rcoobc]

A speech which has statements like this:

"When at 15 my girlfriends started dropping out of their sports teams because they didn’t want to appear “muscly. ...I decided I was a feminist...”

does not merit any kind of serious response.

I agree, its the weakest part of her speech. And although I quite liked the "you might be asking what this Harry Potter girl is doing in front of the UN" bit when written down, as part of her speech it lacked conviction and just made her seem more out of place.

Having said that, the rest of the speech was really good. And there are I think 3 fundemental ideas that are rarely spoken about as part of feminism here which I am grateful have been given a platform to be aired.

 

[Shamwow]

Everything. It's like saying you became a feminist because too many women chose to be stay at home mums rather than chase careers.

It's their fecking choice.

Are you sure you listened to or read the speech? You appear to have missed the entire point.

Edit: Maybe not the entire point but at least a large portion of it!

 

[Rado_N]

Everything. It's like saying you became a feminist because too many women chose to be stay at home mums rather than chase careers.

It's their fecking choice.

The point is that they're being made to feel that they have to conform to a certain image of what a girl/woman should look like.

You say it's their choice, but really the choice isn't whether they want to be muscly, it's whether they want to conform, and pretty much all young people of both sexes do.

 

[rcoobc]

What I like about the speech:

The speech rebuilds Feminism from basic principles. It goes back to the original definition: "The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. It is the theory of the political, economic and social equality of the sexes." and moves forward from there.

It acknowledges the image problem feminism has, which I think is vital if feminism is going to have any long term success. Feminism cannot continue on the path of self-righteousness and ignorance of the criticism around it's implementation in the western world.

It builds a platform for male involvement in feminism, both as a benefactor and as an instigator. "HeForShe" is a terrible brand but at least its a start. It speaks directly about why problems that affect females, and that feminism fights, affect men too.

 

[rcoobc]

The point is that they're being made to feel that they have to conform to a certain image of what a girl/woman should look like.

You say it's their choice, but really the choice isn't whether they want to be muscly, it's whether they want to conform, and pretty much all young people of both sexes do.

It should speak about that though, rather than just saying "my girlfriends gave up sports to not be muscly". Talk about the pressure to conform, talk about the pressure to look a certain way and act a certain way and be a certain way.

In China, 200 years ago they would bind young girls feet until their toes fell off. There has to be anger that we haven't changed so much, we still put pressure on young girls to look a certain way, rather than being who they want to be.

The point could be easily missed.

 

[Rado_N]

It should speak about that though, rather than just saying "my girlfriends gave up sports to not be muscly". Talk about the pressure to conform, talk about the pressure to look a certain way and act a certain way and be a certain way.

In China, 200 years ago they would bind young girls feet until their toes fell off. There has to be anger that we haven't changed so much, we still put pressure on young girls to look a certain way, rather than being who they want to be.

The point could be easily missed.

Considering it came in the midst of a section about gender based assumptions, set up by saying: "I began questioning gender based assumptions when..." followed by a bunch of examples, you'd have to be pretty daft to miss the point she's making, to be honest.

It seems kinda like you're looking too hard for holes.

Edit: or squiggle was,if not you.

 

[rcoobc]

Considering it came in the midst of a section about gender based assumptions, set up by saying: "I began questioning gender based assumptions when..." followed by a bunch of examples, you'd have to be pretty daft to miss the point she's making, to be honest.

It seems kinda like you're looking too hard for holes.

Edit: or squiggle was,if not you.

Yeah I mean, I got the point. It seems like a lot of people come from the point of view that, if all that you have to complain about is a comment or two, you arent looking at real feminist problems. It's a bit of a "white middle-class feminist" problem though, the type of problem that could be picked on by that #solidarityisforwhitewomen thing.

It's just not a great point. Not without context. In general we shouldn't try to compare race issues with gender issues with... ginger issues? (the most bullied subset of school children in Britain if i recall) but it's possibly not something that comes particularly high up the pecking order of societies problems. Not without context. Why did her friends feel the need to drop out? Why was their pressure to look a certain way?

I'm picking on a few sentences of a absolutely golden speech, mostly to show Andrew (and everyone) that we can agree and disagree amiably,

 

[Rado_N]

It's all relative though, and points perceived to be minor are still relevant and worthy of mention.

Obviously she's luckier than most, but she's still able to share her experiences. I don't for one moment think that she believes that girls feeling they shouldn't be muscly is the key issue, it's just an example.

Your last paragraph though - fair enough.

 

[Archie Leach]

It wasn't a great speech. It was a nice speech that pandered too much to men who don't want to be part of equal rights.

 

[peterstorey]

It's a media-person's depoliticised take on things. She means well but can't make sense of it without a proper political sensibility.

 

[Dante]

Sometimes you have to pander to the people who have all the power. It's the same when talking about racism and needing to be patronising to overly-sensitive white people.

 

[Shamwow]

It wasn't a great speech. It was a nice speech that pandered too much to men who don't want to be part of equal rights.

I thought that was the intended target audience for this speech.

 

[Archie Leach]

I thought that was the intended target audience for this speech.

It was but they're not the people celebrating her.

 

[Dante]

I think they're celebrating the fact that the speech has got so much attention from so many quarters, whilst managing to sneak in a relatively standard feminist message.

 

[adexkola]

It wasn't a great speech. It was a nice speech that pandered too much to men who don't want to be part of equal rights.

Aye, she should have gone all ballistic on men. Or something.

If more feminists (and activists in general) delivered their message like Watson's I think people in general would be more accepting of the change in mindset.

 

[Archie Leach]

Aye, she should have gone all ballistic on men. Or something.

If more feminists (and activists in general) delivered their message like Watson's I think people in general would be more accepting of the change in mindset.

Nope. Those unwilling to give up power will not be moved by these kinds of passive speeches.

 

[adexkola]

Nope. Those unwilling to give up power will not be moved by these kinds of passive speeches.

What people in power? And, cutting to the chase, what will they be moved by?

 

[DOTA]

It's a media-person's depoliticised take on things. She means well but can't make sense of it without a proper political sensibility.

It's the UN, not parliament or congress. To have 'proper political sensibility' would be aimless.

These things are about selling dreams, not first steps. The hope is she enthuses a fair number of youngsters, not that she makes heads of state think twice.

 

[Archie Leach]

What people in power? And, cutting to the chase, what will they be moved by?

Not people in power, people with power eg men. And I dunno, I'd have the answer to inequality if I knew that.

 

[Lothar]

The point is that they're being made to feel that they have to conform to a certain image of what a girl/woman should look like.

You say it's their choice, but really the choice isn't whether they want to be muscly, it's whether they want to conform, and pretty much all young people of both sexes do.

Everybody has to conform to society. Been that way since forever.

The women's rights movement lost all credibility once they started calling themselves feminists. It used to be about equal rights, now it's "women first". They even go so far as to say equal rights isn't enough because there's a "man conspiracy" to "hold them down". Really just a profoundly racist position to take, but the feminists have managed to gain a free pass even on that. They talk a big game about "freedom of choice" but where is this freedom? God help the poor girl who just wants to be a housewife or take up weaving as a hobby these days.

Feminism hasn't changed anything, they just changed the criteria for conformity. You can see how deep the programming goes when a person is jokingly labeled a nut just for having the brass to simply not praise the thread topic. Like it's so commonly understood that "feminist topics" are not be disagreed on that straying from that norm becomes an automatic source for humor. And that's the sad state of our freedom of speech in 2014. Yeah you can, but you won't. I'd say that's a bigger issue than whether or not girls should feel comfortable wearing blue sweaters or something without feeling "stigmatized".

 

[Rado_N]

Have you even read the speech?

 

[Lothar]

I did, but I wasn't fooled. Just because they get some actress up on a big stage to say some pre written words doesn't change what the feminist movement is all about these days. If she wants to associate with that, be my guest. I'm not gonna get carried away with a few cleverly placed sentences placating to "anti feminist" men until I see it in practice. She is still using the typical talking points of modern aggressive feminism as the main focus of her argument.

 

[Rado_N]

Ah ok, so you're ignoring the actual content and instead choosing to take a stance against your own preconceived notion of what feminism stands for.

Glad we resolved that early on, I'll waste no more time.

 

[Nedved]

Everything. It's like saying you became a feminist because too many women chose to be stay at home mums rather than chase careers.

It's their fecking choice.

Right. Do you also believe that women who remain in relationships where domestic violence occurs simply choose to remain and therefore, should blame themselves? What about rape victims?