Van Gaal (United) vs Koeman (Southampton)

[Feed Me]

Southampton, off the top of my head, lost Shaw, Lovren, Lallana and Lambert, which amounts to around a quarter of their starting line-up. Rodriguez has also missed the season so far with a knee injury. Despite all the upheaval, they have the best defensive record in the league, conceding just five in eight, are comfortably in the top four, and in Pelle they've got one of Europe's form strikers.

How come it's all come so easily to Koeman, yet Van Gaal has failed at United so far?

 

[Andrew~]

Failed? Relax lad.

 

[Feed Me]

Failed? Relax lad.

Draws against Sunderland, Burnley and WBA, losses against Leicester and Swansea. Not to mention the MK Dons humiliation.

How would you summarise that set of results, if you don't like the word "failed"?

 

[MJJ]

Southampton, off the top of my head, lost Shaw, Lovren, Lallana and Lambert, which amounts to around a quarter of their starting line-up. Rodriguez has also missed the season so far with a knee injury. Despite all the upheaval, they have the best defensive record in the league, conceding just five in eight, are comfortably in the top four, and in Pelle they've got one of Europe's form strikers.

How come it's all come so easily to Koeman, yet Van Gaal has failed at United so far?

Black Magic?

 

[LR7]

Let's see where we are at the end of the season eh? Southampton were up there this time last season too iirc. It's a marathon not a sprint.

 

[MDFC Manager]

So this is the 'Moyes vs Martinez' comparison of this season.

 

[soapythecat]

Another knee jerk thread, just what this forum needs.

 

[PvsNP]

No one saw this coming. Given Koeman's managerial history, I would never have predicted their fantastic start. Let's see how long it'll last.

Anyhow, van Gaal's sides win titles and even lay the foundations of future title winning squads while the same can't be said about Koeman.

 

[Feed Me]

You can all get defensive, but it's interesting that one manager has performed well above expectation despite a level of upheaval that had virtually everyone in the game writing Southampton off as relegation fodder, whereas Van Gaal's tenure is being talked about in terms of transition.

Just intrigued as to why Koeman's got instant results but not Van Gaal. I mean, United's fixture list has hardly been an impediment.

 

[Rednotdead]

Forgetting any comparisons I don't think it's unfair to wonder, even at this early stage, why a manager with Van Gaal's experience and knowledge has so far completely failed to make any substantial impression. Particularly disconcerting is the shambolic nature of our defence.

Nobody should get a free ride, regardless of their name.

 

[Ekeke]

I wish it was this easy. But theres a little bit more to it.

Van Gaal has come in to a situation where few players were on form. Almost all of our players were playing worse than they had played previously, with the exception of players like Januzaj and Smalling who had their best season. So for most of the players its a case of rehabilitating them and getting them back into form.

Ander had a good season in Bilbao and Di Maria a fantastic season at Madrid. They both came in and have carried that on at United. They were on an upward trajectory and it has continued. Whereas Falcao was disrupted by a big injury and wasn't at his best in Monaco, and Rojo wasn't on the radar of big clubs before the world cup. He's a punt.

Southampton's situation was different. Yes they lost a lot of their best players, but the players they signed were on an upwards trajectory like Ander and Di Maria were. In the same way they settled quickly and have been some of the best players in the league. Pelle and Tadic were perhaps the 2 best attackers in the Netherlands last season and they've managed to carry it on in the premier league.

 

[Feed Me]

I wish it was this easy. But theres a little bit more to it.

Van Gaal has come in to a situation where few players were on form. Almost all of our players were playing worse than they had played previously, with the exception of players like Januzaj and Smalling who had their best season. So for most of the players its a case of rehabilitating them and getting them back into form.

Ander had a good season in Bilbao and Di Maria a fantastic season at Madrid. They both came in and have carried that on at United. They were on an upward trajectory and it has continued. Whereas Falcao was disrupted by a big injury and wasn't at his best in Monaco, and Rojo wasn't on the radar of big clubs before the world cup. He's a punt.

Southampton's situation was different. Yes they lost a lot of their best players, but the players they signed were on an upwards trajectory like Ander and Di Maria were. In the same way they settled quickly and have been some of the best players in the league. Pelle and Tadic were perhaps the 2 best attackers in the Netherlands last season and they've managed to carry it on in the premier league.

Fair enough. So you reckon it's all about confidence, in a nutshell...?

 

[Rednotdead]

Fair enough. So you reckon it's all about confidence, in a nutshell...?

Would it were only that!

There is a chronic lack of organisation in defence, that's been there since day one this season and is no nearer being fixed. Van Gaal should be doing better in that respect, given his pedigree.

 

[MDFC Manager]

You can all get defensive, but it's interesting that one manager has performed well above expectation despite a level of upheaval that had virtually everyone in the game writing Southampton off as relegation fodder, whereas Van Gaal's tenure is being talked about in terms of transition.

Just intrigued as to why Koeman's got instant results but not Van Gaal. I mean, United's fixture list has hardly been an impediment.

One manager took over a well coached and trained team, whereas another took over a broken team managed by Moyes. Do you think a more settled and confident defense makes the mistakes of this season?

 

[Ekeke]

Fair enough. So you reckon it's all about confidence, in a nutshell...?

No, I expect not all of our players will be able to recover the form they've shown before. But plenty will improve and we'll have to replace those who can't get back to the proper levels.

The defence needs to stay fit and play together week after week and Jones and Rojo probably need to be kept apart so we only have one impulsive overaggressive CB being pulled into bad areas at a time, not both of them.

 

[Rednotdead]

One manager took over a well coached and trained team, whereas another took over a broken team managed by Moyes. Do you think a more settled and confident defense makes the mistakes of this season?

"Settled"? Chambers, Lovren and Shaw sold from last season's defence. That's 3 of the back 4.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Our defence would look a lot more settled with the same protection Southampton get from their central midfielders that's for damn sure.

 

[RedDF]

Not to mention that managing the biggest club on the planet brings whole new levels of pressure and difficulty compared to managing a club like Southampton

 

[sajeev]

if we could at least have had a settled 3 out of the back 4 for 5 matches at a stretch, we would be in a position to comment but no, Jones plays well gets injured, Rojo got his work-permit very late, McNair was brilliant and got injured, Evans is injured and nowhere near his top form, Blackett played decently, made a mistake, injured,etc, Smalling has failed to turn up this season.

So Van Gaal still has time and resources to recover from this start.

Great going from Koeman though

 

[MDFC Manager]

"Settled"? Chambers, Lovren and Shaw sold from last season's defence. That's 3 of the back 4.

Clearly I was taking about our unsettled and under confident defense. I'm not sure but I seriously doubt Southampton have played as many different defenders this season as we have.

Our defence would look a lot more settled with the same protection Southampton get from their central midfielders that's for damn sure.

That's a solid point. I'm not sure the defense gets any better protection this season, even with a dedicated sweeper. I hope this is what the manager keeps referring to as lacking balance.

 

[Walrus]

I said in the match day thread, but the last 18 months have made me appreciate SAFs focus on mentality, when signing players.

I think the sheer weight of expectation and pressure for playing at United has "got" to the current squad and that is causing them to play like they are scared. They don't want to risk making a mistake, so they daren't take the risk in the first place - Januzaj is an example of this. Even Di Maria last night seemed to be "playing it safe".

 

[MJJ]

I said in the match day thread, but the last 18 months have made me appreciate SAFs focus on mentality, when signing players.

I think the sheer weight of expectation and pressure for playing at United has "got" to the current squad and that is causing them to play like they are scared. They don't want to risk making a mistake, so they daren't take the risk in the first place - Januzaj is an example of this. Even Di Maria last night seemed to be "playing it safe".

The same di maria who has starred in a CL final and played a WC final? Yeah, am sure the expectation of beating west brom got to him.

Januzaj was also signed by SAF.

 

[villain]

I fully expect us to be in top 4 at the end of the season - and I don't expect Southampton to be there.
It's that simple.

 

[legball]

Knee-jerk.

 

[Walrus]

The same di maria who has starred in a CL final and played a WC final? Yeah, am sure the expectation of beating west brom got to him.

Januzaj was also signed by SAF.

Settle petal. Mental issues like what I described can easily course through the entire squad regardless of individuals. It's classic fear of failure. The way our club has gone from championship winners to a "fallen giant" is pretty much unprecedented and is bound to have an effect on the players mentally.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I fully expect us to be in top 4 at the end of the season - and I don't expect Southampton to be there.
It's that simple.

When you compare the cost of the two squads it bloody should be!

They're 4 points ahead of use right now, though, after much tougher fixtures. The explanation for that certainly isn't simple.

 

[Rednotdead]

If this were a British manager he'd be getting a lot more scrutiny than Van Gaal is getting.

 

[villain]

When you compare the cost of the two squads it bloody should be!

They're 4 points ahead of use right now, though, after much tougher fixtures. The explanation for that certainly isn't simple.

We both spent a large amount of money this transfer window, relative to the size of the club + revenue earned.

We've spent a lot of money in one transfer window - but we were always going to - in fact we needed to
You spend more you get a better squad and should therefore be further up the table.
If we do finish in the top 4, we will be surrounded by teams who have a similar value to ours.

Koeman is doing a brilliant job, bought some great players, and he's been helped by us spending 30m on Shaw, and Liverpool spending ~50m on two players which has enabled them to spend ~50m in one transfer window which is uncommon for them, similarly uncommon to us spending 150m in one window

Pochettino did similarly well at this stage too and his losses were ignored later on in the season and they eventually ended up 8 points behind us. I fully expect them to hit a bad run of form, or perhaps suffer from injuries at some point.
Every team goes through it in the season - how they respond will dictate exactly how well Koeman is doing.

 

[sajeev]

If this were a British manager he'd be getting a lot more scrutiny than Van Gaal is getting.

thats not true. Moyes was pretty much given a free ride by the media and still is. The foreign manager is definitely under more scrutiny with less room for error.

Van Gaal does have the advantage of being a proven manager at this level, which gives him a little bit of a leeway in going about trying to achieve his goals.

 

[MJJ]

Settle petal. Mental issues like what I described can easily course through the entire squad regardless of individuals. It's classic fear of failure. The way our club has gone from championship winners to a "fallen giant" is pretty much unprecedented and is bound to have an effect on the players mentally.

Erm why would that have any impact on the players who werent here during SAF and moyes tenure? Your "point" was that our new recruits are mentally weak which is an extremely strange opinion.

 

[Kostur]

Let's see how things pan out come end of the season. You know, we may as well ( hopefully ) be slow starters while SOTON might be struck by injuries as we were and so on.

They won't finish top 4, that's for sure, I can't see them getting into Europa either at the moment.

 

[Cletus]

I find it as annoying that he has been getting crap results against the likes of Poyet, Irvine and Monk.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I Would say they've had zero pressure to do well, which has helped. Everybody tipped them to be relegation candidates, and they have rightly showed they are no mugs. Perhaps people took them lightly at the beginning?.

Either way Tadic has been sensational for me. He looks a top player.

 

[Walrus]

Erm why would that have any impact on the players who werent here during SAF and moyes tenure? Your "point" was that our new recruits are mentally weak which is an extremely strange opinion.

That wasn't my point - my point is that the issues that the squad are facing are primarily mental and that it makes me realise how well SAF did to ingrain that winning mentality that we all took for granted.

 

[justboy68]

I think Paul Jewell had Wigan in the top 4 after 10 or so games one season. So no, it isn't really very interesting, intriguing or shocking. We're just about 1/5 of the way through the league, lets see how things look at Chistmas.

 

[Speak]

I think Paul Jewell had Wigan in the top 4 after 10 or so games one season. So no, it isn't really very interesting, intriguing or shocking. We're just about 1/5 of the way through the league, lets see how things look at Chistmas.

Plus Hull under Brown. And West Brom under Clarke.
Managers have their moments.

Still interesting that half their team is also new and they can click though.

 

[JUPITER]

The same di maria who has starred in a CL final and played a WC final? Yeah, am sure the expectation of beating west brom got to him.

Di Maria didn't play in the World Cup final.

 

[CapeTownRed]

If this were a British manager he'd be getting a lot more scrutiny than Van Gaal is getting.

If there were a british manager with Van Gaal's record he might have the job.

 

[Rednotdead]

If there were a british manager with Van Gaal's record he might have the job.

And that point has precisely what to do with what I said?

 

[The Man Himself]

Fire LvG, Hire Koeman. Sack Woody, sell Fergie.