Is that right? Any one who robs or threatens someone, deserves to be shot at?
Riots in Ferguson, St Louis
- Thread starter PhilipB
- Start date
You've outlined nothing above which warrants the death penalty. Arguably barely worthy of incarceration. Which is the whole point here. Summary "justice" far in excess of what his actions deserved.
It's not about whether or not he broke the law and deserved some sort of punishment. It's about him being shot dead when there's a very real chance that a different kid, in a different neighbourhood, with different colour skin would have got away with similarly antisocial behaviour with just a slap on the wrist.
I doubt anyone would claim that being white gives you 100% protection from trigger happy cops. All the stats would indicate it definitely helps.
Incidents in isolation can't give you the big picture, the fact that there are also incidents of white teenagers being killed doesn't mean there's not a racial factor.
Black teenagers are 21x as likely to be shot and killed by police as white teenagers are (according to a study which looked at the 1200 reported fatal shootings by police which occurred between 2010 and 2012).
I don't know why you are all getting emotional. I just posted a link to a similar case that I found interesting. I have never said I don't believe that there aren't underlying problems in all of this. Quite the opposite actually. I just believe that these cases do indeed have to be treated individually. Here we have a very similar case with a video of what happened. And the police officer was cleared. If anything that guy has done even less than what Brown did if the descriptions are correct.
Yes but your mistake here was trying to make any connections between what happens to black people, and what happens to whites. I tried earlier...I got the same reaction.
"Show me where this happens to whites"
"here"
"Yeah but not as often! Doesn't count"
Oh...ok
A few things worth looking at:
Alleged Theft
Smearing
Alleged Theft
- Attorney For Ferguson Market: NO ONE From His Store Called 911 To Report Cigar Theft
- Ferguson chief: Officer didn’t know about robbery
- Ferguson Cops Busted? New Video Seems to Show Brown Paying for Cigarillos
- Ferguson Store Owner Says He Doesn’t Believe That’s Mike Brown On Surveillance Video
- Lawyer: Store didn’t call cops on Michael Brown
- Michael Brown, Ferguson Victim Paid For His Rellos
- Autopsy Shows Michael Brown Was Struck at Least 6 Times
- Autopsy suggests Mike Brown DID have arms in “surrender” pose when Darren Wilson killed him
- Brown family’s pathologist wants to testify
- County autopsy: Michael Brown shot 6 times from front, had marijuana in system
- Independent Autopsy Shows No Sign of Struggle in Michael Brown’s Shooting
- Darren Wilson’s first job was on a troubled police force disbanded by authorities
- Darren Wilson Violates 1st Amendment “I’ll Lock Your Ass Up”- Arrests Man for Filming
- Darren Wilson Was Racially Profiling Way Before The Michael Brown Incident
- Ferguson, Missouri: The case of the vanishing fractured orbital bone and journalistic integrity
- Jim Hoft’s Unsourced Claim That Officer Darren Wilson Had an “Orbital Blowout Fracture of the Eye Socket”
- Officer Darren Wilson’s story is unbelievable. Literally.
- Photos: Darren Wilson’s injuries following the Michael Brown shooting
- Police chief clarifies comments on Darren Wilson’s job status
- Case: State of Missouriv v. Darren Wilson (Alt)
- Evidence released by McCulloch
- Fair Trial? St. Louis Prosecuting Attorney Raising Funds for Darren Wilson!
- The Pentagon Gave the Ferguson Police Department Military-Grade Weapons
- Raw Video: Tear Gas Canisters
- St Louis County Riot Police Using Tear Gas In Ferguson
- Video: Police lied. Mike Brown was killed 148 feet away from Darren Wilson’s SUV
Smearing
- Ferguson Police Chief Lied About Michael Brown Surveillance Tape
- Ferguson Police Chief Lied About Why He Released Alleged Michael Brown Robbery Tape: Report
- Missouri’s Governor: Cops Released Mike Brown Robbery Video to “Besmirch” Him
- The Ugly Smearing of Michael Brown
- Why did Ferguson police release the convenience store video?
- Ferguson Is 60 Percent Black. Virtually All Its Cops Are White.
- Racial Profiling Data/2013 Agency: Ferguson Police Dept.
- A Eyewitness Explains How Ferguson, Missouri Teen Mike Brown Surrendered & Shot By Police Officer
- All 4 eyewitness accounts of the MURDER of Mike Brown in Ferguson, Missouri
- CNN Obtains Video of Witness Describing Brown Shooting Moments After It Happened
- The complete guide to every public eyewitness interview in the shooting death of Mike Brown
- Eyewitnesses agree Michael Brown was shot with his hands up
- Eyewitness speaks on the murder of Mike Brown
- Eyewitness to Michael Brown shooting recounts his friend’s death
- Media Punked By Fake ‘Josie’ Account Of Michael Brown Shooting
- Michael Brown Eyewitness Stories
- Michael Brown spent his last day with his friend Dorian Johnson. Here’s what Johnson saw.
- New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene
- Police Reportedly Refused Offer to Interview Man Who Was With Michael Brown During Shooting
- Witness: Brown did not reach for police weapon
- Workers who were witnesses provide new perspective on Michael Brown shooting
Where there is overwhelming public interest in a prosecution, the suspect should face trial in an open court. That's how a justice system should work or you end up with this kind of divisive nonsense.
Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side
Good dissection.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side
Good dissection.
The video's not very clear but it does sound like a case of "suicide by cop" when you read the whole article.
Feck me, though, American cops reach for their guns ridiculously quickly. It's no wonder that kids (black or white) are getting killed by police in such high numbers. Racial profiling aside, America really needs to sort its shit out when it comes to regulating guns. The arms war between police and civilians is killing an awful lot of children.
Exactly what i said earlier and in this regard stereotypes and biases play a subconcious and concious part too which lead to exaggerated situations compared to population for one community or also people who may look certain way.
Who is getting emotional? Bizarre claim.
I know you aren't stupid so why are you deliberately missing the point?Yes but your mistake here was trying to make any connections between what happens to black people, and what happens to whites. I tried earlier...I got the same reaction.
"Show me where this happens to whites"
"here"
"Yeah but not as often! Doesn't count"
Oh...ok
Is it really?
Boiled down to one paragraph, it's:
"Why did Michael Brown, an 18-year-old kid headed to college, refuse to move from the middle of the street to the sidewalk? Why would he curse out a police officer? Why would he attack a police officer? Why would he dare a police officer to shoot him? Why would he charge a police officer holding a gun? Why would he put his hand in his waistband while charging, even though he was unarmed?
NONE OF THIS FITS WITH WHAT WE KNOW OF MICHAEL BROWN
None of this fits with what we know of Michael Brown. Brown wasn't a hardened felon. He didn't have a death wish."
It's a bare denial of one side's account based purely on projections upon Brown. There's no independent investigative commentary there other than: "nah, I think Brown was probably a good guy because he was going to college." That's it.
"Asked why he did not use a Taser stun gun, the officer said he found them unwieldy and did not have one."
Wait, what?
Irregardless of the lawfulness of Michael Brown's killing, Ferguson PD needs to be torn down and completely rebuilt. Genuinely.
I think some people's emotions are getting in the way of having a balanced view on the case. Not that bizarre really.
Where? Because it seems to me you are using it to discuss points from people who disagree with you.
I posted a link to a similar case. What's there to disagree about?
Well there is lots to disagree about. I posted an article that directly addressed the differences in the way police treat blacks and whites. You then complained about people being emotional. So I'll ask again, who was being emotional?
Whilst obviously that particular bit of the article is speculative, when you put it in context its a fair point to make. As pointed out in that article (and throughout the resource list @Wonder Pigeon posted) Wilson's account is factually dubious based both of the physical evidence and eyewitness testimony, as well as common sense. There are also clear indications that he's crafted his story to make Brown out as dangerous and a criminal in order to justify why he 'feared for his life', using factors which he didn't have any knowledge of until after the shooting.
From that point, given that Wilson's testimony is clearly unreliable, it's not unreasonable to doubt claims made about Brown's behaviour which contradict what we know of Brown as a person.
I don't need to call people out. That's not what was intended and if it was I would have done so. I think it's been pretty clear and not too surprising that plenty of people's thoughts have been filled on emotion with this case. Not just in the thread but in general.
No there isn't really much to disagree about. I haven't spoken once on how police treat whites or blacks you are just trying to paint me on one side of the racial argument in which I have had very little opinion on in the thread. I posted a factual article of a similar recent case just to show that it can happen to anyone. It's not some strong opinion I have posted or anything is it?
I've said throughout there's a bigger issue in all of this. I just don't think anyone can act in the way Mike Brown allegedly did and not potentially suffer those fatal consequences. But anyhow I'm happy to change my mind on that if I see evidence that suggests otherwise. I have no agenda either way.
I'm not trying to paint you in any way. I'm taking issue with your characterization of people as getting emotional, a claim often used by people who think themselves to be supremely rational. Similar to "bleeding heart liberal".
Genuine question, though - what do you mean when you say "what we know of Brown as a person"? Because all we really do know for an unequivocal fact is that he robbed a convenience store for cigars minutes before he encountered Wilson. That's not the behaviour of someone about to go to college, either. What else do we know of Brown as a person? I'm far from fully clued up on the case.
I'll definitely grant you the "Wilson's crafted his story" element though - there's more than a little bit of ex post facto reasoning there.
Looking back at my post I could have worded things better for sure. I just felt the article was relevant.
To be really honest, I was hell for leather on the pro-Brown bandwagon until the video of Brown's father screaming "BURN THIS BITCH DOWN" into a mob, whipping them up into a frenzy, essentially starting the rioting and destruction of innocent property that night, came out. Then the question of "but why would Brown randomly attack a police officer?" got a little bit of an answer in my head.
Because he was emotional and angry after having his son recently shot dead by another policeman?
Actually, not sure I'm getting your analogy...
Was that his father? Either way he was inciting violence and should be charged.
"Some aspects".....if this had gone to trial MAYBE, where are you getting this information?
The African American males get in trouble with police far more often than any other ethnic group by and large because many of them grow up in an environment where respect for the law and order, family values and education are not among the priorities, to put it mildly.
Wilson's forefathers have feck all to do with Michael Brown robbing a store. It's all about taking responsibility for your actions. Political correctness gone mad will be America's downfall. Everyone is bending over backwards, trying really hard not to say anything controversial for fear of being labeled racist, that's what it came down to.
Even if by some miracle you could get rid of every cop on the force who ever had a racist thought or was trigger happy, the situation will not change much because it has little to do with it. The biggest part of the problem lies within black community itself.
Have to agree with this and after watching the CCTV video of Brown pushing the store owner around definitely makes him a questionable character and this does go on and gives credibility that Brown acted the way officer Wilson described. If we do go by officer Wilson's accounts imo he's justified to fire those shots after being provoked, attacked and also warned he will shoot. But on the other hand the officers story seems too convenient to be true. This whole situation is complex and has several issues attached to it such as poverty, opportunities, racism. Because of this the reaction and exposure has not been warranted. The problem is we will probably never find out what actually happened so there is no simple solution.
Step father, not father.
Well excuse me, I guess protestors walking on to an interstate highway causing people to run off the road, risking life and limb is just a stroll in the park. That happened where I live.
What kills me is the protestors disappear until it is newsworthy and then they're out there punching their fists in the air and shouting .
Sorry, typed that in a rush. I meant that I was completely in tune with the attitudes expressed in the Vox article prior to the release of the verdict - "why would an innocent, college-bound kid randomly attack a police officer? The cop must be lying!" And then I saw Brown's father shouting, screaming, inciting a frenzied mob to violence and the picture got a whole lot murkier for me.
I completely get that it's irrational, and has nothing to do with Michael Brown himself - I do feel a little bit dirty thinking this way, to be honest, but there's an old saying about apples not falling far from trees.
from 0:40, father is the guy in the green/white shirt with his pants swagged to his knees.
He was absolutely inciting violence. If I were a Ferguson shopkeeper I'd be fecking outraged. Grief is only a defence so far.
Just checked this - sorry, you're right. Still.
Family values? Easy there Sarah Palin. You are trying to make education an issue but Michael Brown was going to college. Poverty begets crime and systemic brutalization of the community by the police force is hardly likely to engender respect for said police.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize he was a college student, that makes all the difference. What was his major, robbing stores and attacking police officers?
Why can't minorities be treated equally in society?[/QUOTE]
My question would be why a suspected criminal expects to be treated equally. If a cop says get on the ground, fecking do it, If you are innocent you'll walk away. If you are not, pay the price for your stupidity and move on.
As for minorities not being treated equally, people do not treat each other equally and never have so get over it or do something about it. If you expect me to be impressed by liquor stores being looted forget it. How does that inspire one to go, well they got fecked so I could see looting to prove their point?
I am all for transparency in all cases but the legal system did its job, whether well or not is subject to interpretation. The grand jury reviewed days of testimony and evidence which none of us, including you, were privy to, yet you want to rush to judgement.The US Justice system is not perfect but what legal system is? be patient and let civil courts take an extended look at this, it will happen. Spare your bombast and rhetoric for the pulpit.
Bet your last dollar that there will be other legal action and the "truth", whatever that may be will come out.
I think most people get along just fine with each other; black, white, brown, yellow, purple we all just get by. I'm not going to leap to any assumptions, just going to let it unfold.
You might want to hold off on the sarcasm considering you were the one who brought up education.