Riots in Ferguson, St Louis
- Thread starter PhilipB
- Start date
Yep, fair enough. Far too often things like this get lost in dogmaticism.
Having said that, it's important for the conversation to not turn away from how ridiculous the response to the initial protests was. That these guys were loose on the streets of a civilized nation, one of the greatest in the world, remains incredible to me:
Anyone with law enforcement/military backgrounds - and there are plenty in this thread - can see what these clowns for what they truly are: cosplayers. Dangerous ones.
I like that the dude on the far left bought a carton of milk with him.
Just in case things get spicy.
Yes, and in an isolated incident I would file this under "Darwin award nominations 2014" and keep it moving. Very irresponsible of the guardians of this kid to leave him with a replica of a lethal weapon. Personally I feel a different level of approach would have resulted in no deaths, but the officer was put in a very difficult situation.He was on a playground waving an airsoft pistol around...
For anyone that doesn't know here are some examples of airsoft pistols:
They are incredibly realistic replicas, not toys, if someone waved one in my face I wouldn't be taking the time to check whether it was the real thing or not.
Not saying either incident was justified or not, and there's certainly a racial element, particularly in Ferguson, but sometimes, people do stupid shit and it gets them killed, waving a pistol around on a play ground, physically attacking an armed cop in a town with a history of racial unrest, just not very bright things to do. Do you deserve to die for either of them? Probably not, but hey you don't always get what you deserve, and you can't always rely on the judgement of the other person, best not to do stupid shit I find.
I do have a lot of sympathy for police, the cop in this case, I'm pretty sure didn't go to work that day intent on killing someone, unfortunately he ended up in a situation where he was required to respond and it ended up with someone being killed. Not only does he have to carry the weight of that forever, his life is now basically ruined.
But it is nearly impossible to separate this isolated incident of a kid doing stupid shit, from the toxic relationship that exists between black people and cops in the US. I just listed 2 cases where two people, minding their business, got killed or nearly kid by cops. A third (Eric Garner) was killed by excessive force after caught committing a misdemeanor. It's been less than 20 years since 2 black men in New York (Sean Bell, Amadu Diallo) each got 40 bullets pumped into them for looking like they had weapons. So in those situations, what should they have done better? Looked less threatening? Not exist?
The galling part about this case for most people is that the grand jury declined to indite Wilson on any charge. They determined there was not enough probable cause. I find it baffling that a prosecutor could not find enough probable cause to indite the officer, given the lack of clarity on both sides. It is very likely that if this went to trial, the charge of murder or manslaugher wouldn't stick, by a "beyond reasonable doubt" standard, and that's ok, but it not going to trial is a kick in the nuts for the family, and another straw on the camel's back for that part of America that has to deal with this rubbish on the daily.
There's definitely a toxic relationship, I agree, 75% of the cops in Ferguson are white, 70% of the population is black - thats an issue.
That being the case I'd have said it would be even more important not to do stupid shit there if you are black (not saying thats right either, just sensible) . I think the parents ultimately hold the responsibility for the kid on the playground, the cop had other members of the public to consider.
As for the other cases, I'm not familiar with them, but I agree race probably played a role and that it's a wider issue in terms of US policing. I was responding directly to the claim that the kid 'got shot for holding a toy gun' - exaggerating, misinforming or simplifying cases does as much harm as anything.
Yeah fair enough, "airsoft" sounded toylike to me.
Forget the fact that Brown was shot many times in a manner that will definitely kill. Look at the entire story of black oppression in America. There is a fundamental problem in American society and a racist undertone that has not even nearly been resolved. Yes, sometimes police make mistakes. But the case is so in America that people are being brutally murdered by cops on a weekly basis and a vast majority of those are black teenagers. The gun culture and the police authority in America is totally fecked up.
I think something that doesn't rest well with many people is the frequency in which unarmed black civilians appear to get shot and killed by police officers, whilst white mass killers appear to get talked down and arrested.
Just looking at Wikipedia I count 45 'rampage' killers on US soil in the last 15 years, 32 of which were white. Not a single one was shot by police, and 13 were arrested and charged. The remaining committed suicide. The remaining 13 were of a variety of races, 3 were shot by police, and 4 were arrested and charged.
Now obviously there's a hell of a lot going on in these situations, but you can't seriously that a 12 year old waving what is 'probably a toy' warrants action as severe as a police officer shooting him twice, when there have been numerous cases of white people actually killing people and still being in possession of weapons and that apparently not warranting the same force used to deal with a rowdy black kid.
Just looking at Wikipedia I count 45 'rampage' killers on US soil in the last 15 years, 32 of which were white. Not a single one was shot by police, and 13 were arrested and charged. The remaining committed suicide. The remaining 13 were of a variety of races, 3 were shot by police, and 4 were arrested and charged.
Now obviously there's a hell of a lot going on in these situations, but you can't seriously that a 12 year old waving what is 'probably a toy' warrants action as severe as a police officer shooting him twice, when there have been numerous cases of white people actually killing people and still being in possession of weapons and that apparently not warranting the same force used to deal with a rowdy black kid.
It changes everything, it makes Michael Brown a suspect in a robbery, gives him motivation to resist arrest, and shows his confrontational/aggressive behavior moments before his death. This is not an innocent man... he chose to go down fighting instead of being arrested as a robbery suspect.
Oh, Canada
I don't think police fearing harm to them justifies using deadly force in the blanket way some people use it to wave away disproportionate responses. I'm not speaking specifically about caf members but throughout society. Surely police accept a certain level of risk as part of their job. The idea that we should value the safety of police so highly has undoubtedly played some part in the deaths of civilians who police exist to protect.
Yes oh, canada, we have a mere fraction of the gun killings and police brutality cases that you do. A fraction so small it barely needs reflecting on.Oh, Canada
For once, I agree with you.
I don't remember who you are so as far as I am concerned, we have a 100% track record of agreement.
I don't know exactly how it happened but what I would say is that waving a gun around (look above, there is virtually no difference between and airsoft gun and the real thing) on a playground stands a very high chance of getting you shot and most likely killed.
I'm not sure a hostage scenario provides any valid comparison really.
Ultimately, if you have a gun in your hand, and again an airsoft gun is a gun, it's not a toy, you should expect the most extreme response. Police have a duty to protect the public and other people on that playground.
In hindsight it's a terrible tragedy, but I'd be more inclined to ask why a 12 year old was walking around with a replica firearm than asking why the cop didn't assume it wasn't real when it looks, and even feels real in your hand.
charming
Do something crazy or create an alliterative nickname for yourself.
My cafe alias should have been that of a very poor footballer, I will admit.
You seem to be taking this badly. And here I thought we had 100% of things in common.
I was being serious, it would have been a better choice!
It must be quite a luxury having a strong neighbor to protect your self-righteous socialist culture
From what exactly? Mexico?It must be quite a luxury having a strong neighbor to protect your self-righteous socialist culture
We don't need protecting. The only people we treat poorly are the indigenous. Although, if our current prime minister (barf) has his way we will be a global enemy to most.It must be quite a luxury having a strong neighbor to protect your self-righteous socialist culture
Edit: We move further and further from 'socialism' every Stephen Harper term.
How about irrelevance, for a start.
Irrelevance? Bomb it!
He said, with typical American bravado. Get off your high horse
There wouldn't be stories in most circumstances where a person puts their hands on a police officer and gets shot. It's the combination of history in the community and the situation that fuels the headlines.
The photos of him assaulting the shopkeeper are crazy. He's built like that guy from The Blind Side!
Was watching Saturday Night Live the other night and one of the news guys on that reported that the National Guard had been called into Ferguson in advance of the verdict. "Guess we know what the verdict is going to be".
Was watching Saturday Night Live the other night and one of the news guys on that reported that the National Guard had been called into Ferguson in advance of the verdict. "Guess we know what the verdict is going to be".
He was 6'6 and 292lbs (21 stone). Wilson must've been intimidated by his size.
I agree on your point that the police reaction was over the top, and probably contributed to some of the unrest with protestors and people in the area. It did little to calm down the public response.
And as far as the airsoft pistols go. We got briefing items in regards to people placing orange tips on regular firearms to make it appear like its not dangerous, or is a toy...that's why it's taken very seriously, however its reported.
This coming from someone with that law enforcement background you speak of
People probably don't really realize how big of a "kid" Brown was. He was a monster.
It takes a man, he's a man sorry not a kid, about 5 seconds to render another grown man whom he can overpower unconscious. Brown was more than capable of beating Wilson unconscious in seconds and once you are out, anything can happen. When a dude that large, who is not morbidly obese comes charging at you, you are right to fear for your life. People die every day from getting knocked out and cracking their heads on the ground.
Second. The guys talking about "eliminating threats" and "shooting center mass" you're the most terrifying thing in this entire thread. You are literally assclowns who no doubt have CCW's. You pull a gun on someone and YOU are escalating the situation. Just to make the point clear, when a Law enforcement officer draws down on you, you comply and get the feck on the ground.
When a random dickhead pulls a gun out because he thinks you are a threat and is going to "aim center mass" and "eliminate the threat", you're probably up shit creek. These kinds of guys fall into 1 of 2 catergories.
1) They were too chickenshit to join the military and kill people legally (yes that is a thing)
2) They think they are hardasses using tactical lingo and defending their right to carry a concealed weapon and shoot people for disagreeing with them potentially in a physical manner.
There is a perfect example of this.
Gerard Strenbendt. A former marine scout sniper who got into a traffic incident with a 53 year old (possibly drunk) man. Strenbendt is not only a former marine scout sniper, he is a former professional MMA competitor whom fought in the UFC.
The two men got into a confrontation. At some point the out of shape, potentially drunk 53 year old said something to the effect of "I'm going to kill you". Pretty standard stuff from two men arguing in an extremely heated manner. Gerard then used the statement as carte blanche to "aim center mass" and "eliminate the threat" as he walked back to his vehicle while on the phone with a police operator, before he drew out an AR-15 (that is a civilian spec 5.56 semi-auto rifle. It's a civilian M16) and proceeded to shoot the 53 year old in the kill T once or twice, blowing his head off.
Gotta love "aiming center mass" and "eliminating the threat".
For the record, I am absolutely pro-gun. I'm just anti-idiot.
It takes a man, he's a man sorry not a kid, about 5 seconds to render another grown man whom he can overpower unconscious. Brown was more than capable of beating Wilson unconscious in seconds and once you are out, anything can happen. When a dude that large, who is not morbidly obese comes charging at you, you are right to fear for your life. People die every day from getting knocked out and cracking their heads on the ground.
Second. The guys talking about "eliminating threats" and "shooting center mass" you're the most terrifying thing in this entire thread. You are literally assclowns who no doubt have CCW's. You pull a gun on someone and YOU are escalating the situation. Just to make the point clear, when a Law enforcement officer draws down on you, you comply and get the feck on the ground.
When a random dickhead pulls a gun out because he thinks you are a threat and is going to "aim center mass" and "eliminate the threat", you're probably up shit creek. These kinds of guys fall into 1 of 2 catergories.
1) They were too chickenshit to join the military and kill people legally (yes that is a thing)
2) They think they are hardasses using tactical lingo and defending their right to carry a concealed weapon and shoot people for disagreeing with them potentially in a physical manner.
There is a perfect example of this.
Gerard Strenbendt. A former marine scout sniper who got into a traffic incident with a 53 year old (possibly drunk) man. Strenbendt is not only a former marine scout sniper, he is a former professional MMA competitor whom fought in the UFC.
The two men got into a confrontation. At some point the out of shape, potentially drunk 53 year old said something to the effect of "I'm going to kill you". Pretty standard stuff from two men arguing in an extremely heated manner. Gerard then used the statement as carte blanche to "aim center mass" and "eliminate the threat" as he walked back to his vehicle while on the phone with a police operator, before he drew out an AR-15 (that is a civilian spec 5.56 semi-auto rifle. It's a civilian M16) and proceeded to shoot the 53 year old in the kill T once or twice, blowing his head off.
Gotta love "aiming center mass" and "eliminating the threat".
For the record, I am absolutely pro-gun. I'm just anti-idiot.
I think you generalized a little too much there. Otherwise I was somewhat on the same page as you.
While this is true, would you say Wilson acted unlawfully in this instance? It's a difficult one for me, putting myself in his shoes.
Accepting all of the following premises as true, which may or may not be accurate:
1. Brown was walking down the centre of the road with an accomplice when stopped, in the vicinity of a recent burglary (which Brown had, in fact, perpetrated, although Wilson wasn't apparently aware of that)
2. When confronted, Brown struck Wilson through the window (it bears repeating Brown's 6'4, 132kg build here).
3. Brown then reached for Wilson's firearm, prompting Wilson to shoot him the first time.
4. Brown fled, then charged back at Wilson when Wilson attempted to pursue him, prompting the fatal shots.
Then I'd really hesitate to dismiss the possibility that Wilson was genuinely in fear of his life - and while what you say about the assumption of risk on the part of LEOs is true, I don't think it extends to the threat of GBH or death, nor should it.
"centre mass" is just a technical term. All it means is "aim for the centre." Not quite sure how you make the jump from using that term to carrying concealed weapons and harboring some sort of weird desire to kill someone.
Next time you have a 20 stone guy charging at you see how many times you need him to start over before you can hit him in the leg with a single shot from a pistol.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/u...NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article
The video on that page - not too sure how to embed it - is pretty good. It looks like pure criminality, to be honest.
The video on that page - not too sure how to embed it - is pretty good. It looks like pure criminality, to be honest.
He looks like the kind of gormless twat who shoots unarmed people.
Nonsense. The only job of the grand jury is to determine if there is sufficient cause to warrant a trial based on a charge they are given to consider. They do not have the option of considering alternate charges unless the prosecutor's office provides different charges for them to consider. The grand jury is given specific charges to consider and those charges cite statutes in question.
It may work differently elsewhere but I spent 2 months last year as foreman of a grand jury. I hated every second of it, gutted me to see how some folk treat each other. The kids, the elderly.......I told the county prosecutor on completion of my term that I was done with jury duty, period.
There is a bad relationship between blacks and police here, no doubt. I would not be surprised if they came back with a lesser charge or allowed civil proceedings to determine the outcome as has been done many times.
That said, what the feck does looting do for the black community of Ferguson besides make them look bad?
I don't know why people are trying to label others in the thread. They are taking those quotes out of context a bit. Someone was asking why the officer didn't just shoot him in the leg and then it was explained it was too risky. I don't see how that equates to someone being a redneck, gunslinging, robo killer but still...
What am I supposed to be seeing? I read his testimony to the grand jury and I imagined it would be actual injuries.