Green_Smiley VS Joga Bonito- All time 3 year peak - Auction Draft

[antohan]

Btw, I'm playing against you not antohan

Edited

What was that all about?

 

[green_smiley]

What was that all about?

I mistakenly wrote I was against your team rather than Joga's

Poster you always confuse with one another: antohan and Joga Bonito

 

[Joga Bonito]

I've always said writeups should fit in one PM (of old, I understand the convos these days have no limit?). In any case, 4-5 paragraphs, anything over that and I refuse to read it.

Had to elaborate more on the dynamics on the midfield and the forward line as it did require a lot of explanation, so yeah it did go longer than I expected. It did fit one PM and I knew it would be long but not this long, as it came out on the thread .

Problem is, that Dutch side was terribly confusing as well more often than not, which makes it very difficult to gage how close the players are to being able to pull off such an exacting system.

Yeah, agreed with that which is why I'm not following their blue print stringently but rather just taking inspiration to a certain extent.

Keane is no Haan, that much I'm positive about.

That is fair enough as Keane was slightly more inclined attacking wise than Haan but then the disparity isn't that significant imo. Keane was a defensive/supporting B2B and wasn't someone who kept bursting forward relentlessly to get on the end of things but rather picked his moments and only did so in a supporting fashion more often than not. Similar to Jansen and Haan for Holland and Ajax in their roles imo or at least as close to it as can be for a B2B player.

Matthäus is more like Neeskens, not van Hanegem.

Aye, they were both quite similar tbh but their complete game meant that they could be fitted together in the same side. In the sense that both were tactically complete and brilliant in both basic phases but I'd say Matthäus was slightly stronger defensively and in conventional central midfield play and Neeskens the stronger offensive and the more dynamic one in the final third. Slight margins but it is great that Matthäus has Rivaldo in front of him, meaning he will have to focus slightly more on the defensive side of things but will have the freedom to bomb forward as he has two tactically malleable and non-egoistical companions in Keane and Neeskens who can form a formidable midfield duo when he ventures forward.

Whereas it will be more of Neeskens who will be the slightly more adventurous one, re-forming the two Johanns link as he has the dynamic Law who he can work in tandem with, esp in sharing defensive duties* and the more supporting Bossis on the right flank, as opposed to Nilton on the left. Meaning he has the freedom to bomb forward to link up with Cruyff or drop onto his favoured right flank.

*https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-all-time-auction-draft.404567/page-61#post-17667744

(Some of Law's performances and you can see the ubiquitous nature of his play and how he loved getting in the thick of things. Not necessarily playing as the poacher waiting for service. Just kind of like Rep in most aspects but much more talented and without any attitude too. I expect Neeskens-Law to be a terrific together in all honesty.)

Also as I said in the OP, the main key to this midfield is Keano imo, as the flexible all-round supporting B2B who helps facilitate the inclusion of both Neeskens and Matthäus in the same team. In fact, I had to leave a better holding midfielder in Varela on the bench, to make the midfield more feasible and the last thing I wanted was a static holding midfielder occupying the same huge chunk of space, which would essentially restrict the other two just being 'attacking B2Bs' or 'wide B2Bs' (as I've stated in the OP). A more flexible and fluid midfielder capable of covering, occasionally making forays forward in a supporting fashion and not just being a static presence was the key in making the midfield work and allowing Neeskens and Matthäus more compartmentalised roles instead of clashing as two attacking B2Bs in essentially the same exact roles.

Not sold on Rivaldo as Keizer or how he would work alongside Cruyff.

Tbh, I see an awful lot of similarity between both Rivaldo and Keizer. Both were free roaming and magnificently talented inside lefts with a similar set of skills but with some slight differences. Both were multi-faceted forwards, and nutters to boot, who had a marvellous left peg which was equally deadly when it came to creating or scoring. Both tried outrageous things and weren't averse to taking risks, esp with their shooting and passing. I'd say that Rivaldo was capable of providing more wingsmanship as he did seem more on ease at the left flank whenever he gravitated towards there. Keizer on the other hand was a bit more of a playmaker and looked to play more one-twos and hog the ball more etc but Rivaldo was the slightly more inconsistent one.

Anyway, I think Rivaldo is ideal as the inside left to play alongside Cruyff and whenever I watched him play he never seemed like the type who would have been at odds with a playmaker, much less a free roaming one in Cruyff. Can't really think of a better replica for Keizer in fact - someone who merges creative wing play and goalscoring inside left play to a high level.

I can't for the life of me see how Nasazzi would fit a Dutch side, a poor fit IMO.

That was a concern but I'm not playing an extreme kamikaze like high line or the same suicidal, yet brilliant, tactics that the Ajax side employed. My team is more direct and adventurous, yes, but not gung-ho like the Ajax side. It is a slightly more expansive set-up and I'd have preferred a more modern centre-back there but since it isn't a radical Barca/Ajax system replica, I don't think it is a significant issue.

And Bossis is too good to play weak-link Wim, he will be nowhere near as insanely gung-ho as him and never found out of position

. Tbh, though I really think he has an overly exaggerated negative reputation in these drafts. Defensively I found him fine tbh, although the system did help focus more on the athletic side of defending as opposed to positioning and 'holding the fort' ala Chelsea style, where he might be found wanting maybe. His tackling and ability to track players seemed fine to me but it was his attacking game which was really underwhelming for me. He had a good engine and could provide a 'body' up front but he was pretty poor with the ball and it says a lot when your centre-backs, Blankenberg (zero caps but did have Der Kaiser in his way) and Hulshoff (going by looks alone - a hulking physical stopper), are much much better on the ball than your wing-back .

 

[Skizzo]

Had to elaborate more on the dynamics on the midfield and the forward line as it did require a lot of explanation, so yeah it did go longer than I expected. It did fit one PM and I knew it would be long but not this long, as it came out on the thread .

It did fit one PM tbf. One giant PM, but one PM all the same.

It was after opening yours and GS PM's in different tabs that I realized I clearly had made a bad choice to volunteer . I think you guys have more gifs included in your write ups than I have words.

 

[antohan]

That is fair enough as Keane was slightly more inclined attacking wise than Haan but then the disparity isn't that significant imo.

You wouldn't see Roy Keane dropping into a three in a month of Sundays. When Suurbier/Krol got caught upfield Haan would do that at ease, Keano would just give them a bollocking.

Aye, they were both quite similar tbh but their complete game meant that they could be fitted together in the same side. In the sense that both were tactically complete and brilliant in both basic phases but I'd say Matthäus was slightly stronger defensively and in conventional central midfield play and Neeskens the stronger offensive and the more dynamic one in the final third. Slight margins but it is great that Matthäus has Rivaldo in front of him, meaning he will have to focus slightly more on the defensive side of things but will have the freedom to bomb forward as he has two tactically malleable and non-egoistical companions in Keane and Neeskens who can form a formidable midfield duo when he ventures forward.

Whereas it will be more of Neeskens who will be the slightly more adventurous one, re-forming the two Johanns link as he has the dynamic Law who he can work in tandem with, esp in sharing defensive duties* and the more supporting Bossis on the right flank, as opposed to Nilton on the left. Meaning he has the freedom to bomb forward to link up with Cruyff or drop onto his favoured right flank.

*https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-all-time-auction-draft.404567/page-61#post-17667744

(Some of Law's performances and you can see the ubiquitous nature of his play and how he loved getting in the thick of things. Not necessarily playing as the poacher waiting for service. Just kind of like Rep in most aspects but much more talented and without any attitude too. I expect Neeskens-Law to be a terrific together in all honesty.)

Also as I said in the OP, the main key to this midfield is Keano imo, as the flexible all-round supporting B2B who helps facilitate the inclusion of both Neeskens and Matthäus in the same team. In fact, I had to leave a better holding midfielder in Varela on the bench to make the midfield more feasible and the last thing I wanted was a static holding midfielder, who would essentially restrict the other two just being 'attacking B2Bs' or 'wide B2Bs' (as I've stated in the OP). A more flexible and fluid midfielder capable of covering, occasionally making forays forward in a supporting fashion and not just being a static presence was the key in making the midfield work and allowing Neeskens and Matthäus more compartmentalised roles instead of clashing as two attacking B2Bs in the same role.

You've just described Obdulio Varela. Holding midfielder, tidy playmaker from the back and occasionally (usually, when needing a goal) overloading in attack and launching one of his long range screamers.

That was a concern but I'm not playing an extreme kamikaze like high line or the same suicidal, yet brilliant, tactics that the Ajax side employed. My team is more direct and adventurous, yes, but not gung-ho like the Ajax side. It is a slightly more expansive set-up and I'd have preferred a more modern centre-back there but since it isn't a radical Barca/Ajax system replica, so I don't think it is a significant issue.

It's par for the course really, which takes me back to the confusion as to how it will play out. Yes, the high line was risky but, conversely, the entire setup wouldn't work without one IMO.

 

[antohan]

It did fit one PM tbf. One giant PM, but one PM all the same.

I mean the old PMs (they are convos now). They took up to 2500 characters and all pictures (inc. teamsheet), videos and gifs took up characters. I often found myself getting rid of formatting as it added characters (e.g. bolding added [b.][/b.] = 7 characters! Getting your pics on tinypic made their URL paths shorter, and so on. It roughly amounts to what Joga managed to squeeze into the first post.

Those were the days, we stuck to a format, made the modding job easier, and didn't take the piss out of people expecting them to read an encyclopaedia before every game. I can't see a gaffer going on and on like that prior to a game, with multinational players to boot, and getting anything other than "¿Qué?"

 

[green_smiley]

I would have it the other way round, Neeskens is more than capable of handling Gerson off the ball but Gerson won't be able to keep up with Neeskens when he has the ball. He simply isn't dynamic or athletic enough to do such a job.



Not really, if Rijkaard is focussed on Cruyff, then who is going to deal with Neeskens and Matthäus's forays forward? Gerson won't be able to do that and your midfield will be overrun. Neither Moore nor Charles are the kind of defenders you'd want stepping into midfield tracking Cruyff, without the ball either, as they simply weren't suited for it. Cruyff is most certainly not going to be curbed here.

I imagine it will be something like this:

Moore is playing a very important role in defense. He will "sweep out" any attacking threat in case opposition goes past their marker (Brehme on Law, Gerson on Neeskens, Rijkaard on Cryuff). Zanetti will have Charles supporting when Rivaldo cuts inside

Gerson normally defends deep, so Neeskens will have to venture forward more to exploit Gerson's relatively weakness in defending. At that moment, Moore and Brehme will be around in proximity area to defend collectively

Di Stefano will keep an eye on Matthaus

Potential challenge is if Keane commits himself to attacking. He will not be tightly marked. Question is, how often is he allowed to attack to avoid danger of my counter?

 

[Rado_N]

24

Damobot is slacking, sleeping on his most/least helpful mod confusion laurels.

@Rado_N is the new robomod in RC Town.

24 hour poll added.

 

[Balu]

Seriously guys? I always had a guilty conscience when I submitted my total football write-ups in the world cup draft with a few "4 pic - comics-strips" to explain the tactics because it seemed almost over the top. But in comparison to what you guys do, my ops were tweets.

I lost interest in reading the write-ups just by scrolling down without having even started to read. It's totally crazy. We need to limit the ops in my opinion. And we need to ban gifs from the tactical write-ups. Leave most of the player description for the following discussion and use gifs to underline your points, then the op is fun to read and the discussion is interesting and offers something new. There's no need to cram everything you know into the op.

I for one won't read that, sorry. And the gifs were killing my mobile connection with the notebook earlier. It's way worse than youtube links because those aren't loaded until you click on them as far as I know. Maybe we should go back to banning all videos and gifs from the first page, so that it's quick to load for everyone?

 

[green_smiley]

@Balu sorry about that. Won't happen again next time

 

[Balu]

@Balu sorry about that. Won't happen next time

No need to apologise . It's just my opinion and if everyone else is happy with it, then by all means, continue to do it. I personally think it got way out of hand though. But I guess it's a discussion for the draft ideas thread, not for this game.

Excellent side by the way, love it. You got my vote almost instantly.

 

[Skizzo]

24

24 hour poll added.

Cheers!

Seriously guys? I always had a guilty conscience when I submitted my total football write-ups in the world cup draft with a few "4 pic - comics-strips" to explain the tactics because it seemed almost over the top. But in comparison to what you guys do, my ops were tweets.

I lost interest in reading the write-ups just by scrolling down without having even started to read. It's totally crazy. We need to limit the ops in my opinion. And we need to ban gifs from the tactical write-ups. Leave most of the player description for the following discussion and use gifs to underline your points, then the op is fun to read and the discussion is interesting and offers something new. There's no need to cram everything you know into the op.

I for one won't read that, sorry. And the gifs were killing my mobile connection with the notebook earlier. It's way worse than youtube links because those aren't loaded until you click on them as far as I know. Maybe we should go back to banning all videos and gifs from the first page, so that it's quick to load for everyone?

Agreed. I was guilty of adding a few too many gifs into our first round match, not realizing it would screw everyone up with loading. The formatting for this was a nightmare, not to mention when they get spoilered and some come through, some dont, and some gifs show up, some dont. Then you gotta figure out how much of the text fits in each post.

If it gets to the point where the opening tactics/formations take up 3 separate posts, it might be a bit too in depth

I agree it would be better to keep the OP simple, then expand upon those points in the match discussion to keep it going and interesting, rather than overwhelm everyone that comes in and tries to read all that at once.

I put it together, and can honestly say I didn't even try to read through 2/3rds of it

 

[Balu]

Agreed. I was guilty of adding a few too many gifs into our first round match, not realizing it would screw everyone up with loading. The formatting for this was a nightmare, not to mention when they get spoilered and some come through, some dont, and some gifs show up, some dont. Then you gotta figure out how much of the text fits in each post.

I made the frustrated post in the Euro draft about how much work it is to set up the games if people totally overdo the write-ups for a reason .

 

[Skizzo]

I made the frustrated post in the Euro draft about how much work it is to set up the games if people totally overdo the write-ups for a reason .

I thought you were just being dramatic

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Eermm ...I quite enjoyed the write ups, particularly Joga's section where he was describing how his central midfield would operate _ I'm not sure if I agree just yet, but its genuinely thought-provoking. I'm fecking glad @Skizzo was the one who copped for setting the match up though .

The gifs thing is becoming a problem quite quickly. Personally, I 'm almost always on here from my laptop and loading times haven't really been an issue. I've found them brilliant in terms of getting a better idea of players, and in terms of sussing out what managers have really studied their players and who is just winging it or going off reputation. Not that I don't often do so myself, and I have no doubt there's plenty on here who know more about the game and past players than me, but I certainly view the likes of Joga and Green Smiley as having additional credibility when they've clearly watched their players actually play.

In terms of the write ups as well as videos/gifs, there's a balance to be struck in terms of conciseness and detail, but I'd much rather have it as it is now than some of he much older drafts where the discussion was sometimes just an argument-fest with little depth or evidence.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Just make your gifs on http://gfycat.com/

 

[Annahnomoss]

Two very good teams here in terms of player personnel. I think the offense and defense of both teams are very good, well balanced and will be very equal to each other in quality. GS has natural width provided in a better way than Joga so I would give a slight edge to GS there.

In the midfield I would prefer Gerson-Rijkaard-Di Stefano 9/10 times, but here I think it looks a bit like a car crash with the tactics that are utilized and disregarding that I think that Gerson-Rijkaard-Di Stefano aren't too well suited to face Cruyff, Matthäus, Neeskens and Keane. Rijkaard keeping tabs on Cruyff seems almost impossible from his regular box to box role as when he loses the ball he has quite the tracking down to do to catch up to Cruyff to in any way bother him.

At the same time Di Stefano will likely be involved in the offensive play, or ready to finish off a chance in or around the box more or less every time GS loses the ball and his job to cover for Matthäus when he makes runs forward seems impossible even at the best of times. Then we have Neeskens who is supported by Cruyff and with Dzajic in such a counter-attacking role Gerson suddenly has the world on his shoulders there defensively. Will he stop them? Just can't see it happening at all.

Di Stefano should clearly be trying to do a job on Keane, which he would fail at but he'd do one heck of a job and I am confident Keane would fail to cover Di Stefano offensively too and he'd be much more likely to pull a match winner.

Even then I think that Joga's midfield with Keane, Neeskens and Matthäus is just too tough for Gerson-Rijkaard who are supported by Di Stefano while Joga's midfield is supported by Cruyff.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Eermm ...I quite enjoyed the write ups, particularly Joga's section where he was describing how his central midfield would operate _ I'm not sure if I agree just yet, but its genuinely thought-provoking. I'm fecking glad @Skizzo was the one who copped for setting the match up though .

The gifs thing is becoming a problem quite quickly. Personally, I 'm almost always on here from my laptop and loading times haven't really been an issue. I've found them brilliant in terms of getting a better idea of players, and in terms of sussing out what managers have really studied their players and who is just winging it or going off reputation. Not that I don't often do so myself, and I have no doubt there's plenty on here who know more about the game and past players than me, but I certainly view the likes of Joga and Green Smiley as having additional credibility when they've clearly watched their players actually play.

In terms of the write ups as well as videos/gifs, there's a balance to be struck in terms of conciseness and detail, but I'd much rather have it as it is now than some of he much older drafts where the discussion was sometimes just an argument-fest with little depth or evidence.

Yup. It is certainly an area that has been improved massively and the quality of discussion these days is way higher in most games. Previously it was very much down to petty arguments, and there are countless of examples of voters/managers misunderstanding a compressed write-up point and then making it out to be the biggest deal of the game while it was a misunderstanding etc.

I think there is already an equilibrium between writing longer write-ups that are more in depth and shorter ones that are more entertaining. This thread if anything is proof to that.

 

[Gio]

It's an interesting premise is Joga's midfield. It's the same rationale behind how Luis Enrique has set up his Barcelona side, or how big Phil sorted Brazil out in 2002. A hard-working, hard-running defensively solid trio providing a platform for the front three to do their thing. I can see Gerson getting a bit of a chasing frankly. That said, the midfield does lend itself to a playmaker type, someone in the Pirlo/Alonso/Suarez/Bozsik mould to dictate the game, someone who is also inclined to anchor the midfield and pivot their passing from that position. I can see it becoming more of a 4-3-1-2 in practice and Cruyff himself may decide to drop into the centre of the park to get some possession going.

As for Green Smiley, there are a lot of complementary pairings and a well balanced unit. Hard to think of any particular faults, it's nicely designed.

 

[Mani]

Sorry joga, but that MF looked overkill.I would have played Varela behind Neeskens and Matthus.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

voted joga....both great teams but what can i say, i have a soft spot for Cruyff love the side and dont really see an issue with midfield. They are 3 highly intelligent players so there will be always someone who will stay in that holding role, i assume most of the time it would be Keano or Neeskens. They are all pretty good on the ball, specially Matthaus so they dont really need someone do dictate the tempo from DM position as they are playing in pretty direct setup, get the ball up to Cruyff and let him do his magic.


As for the gifs....they are great and all but we should limit gifs in OP to lets say 3, after that u can use the gifs if you need in debate. For example, in my first game i had around 10 gifs for Breitner and in the end i dont think i used any.

 

[Moby]

Post all the media (gifs, video links etc) in the main thread and a link in the match OP.

The similar system we had with linking profiles was pretty neat.

 

[green_smiley]

Yeah, Cryuff as false 9 here is like kryptonite to my team. Would have been easier to deal with had Joga played Cryuff as no 10 behind Law. Joga is tactically spot on

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I dont see the idea behind the criticism Joga's midfield is getting. Yes, normally I'd prefer Pirlo there over Keane to make it work, but with Scirea and Nassazi behind I'd much rather have someone like Keane in terms of work rate and defensive shielding. Moreover, I love the idea behind 3 top box to box midfielders(tried it myself with a slightly lesser midfield trio which also had keane in the same role), and I don't see any reason for it not to work, Keane doesn't really get all the defensive responsibility because naturally Neeskens and Matthaus will both come and defend as well as attacking.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is Law on the right, wouldn't he nornally be better utilized as a CF?

 

[antohan]

I dont see the idea behind the criticism Joga's midfield is getting. Yes, normally I'd prefer Pirlo there over Keane to make it work, but with Scirea and Nassazi behind I'd much rather have someone like Keane in terms of work rate and defensive shielding. Moreover, I love the idea behind 3 top box to box midfielders(tried it myself with a slightly lesser midfield trio which also had keane in the same role), and I don't see any reason for it not to work, Keane doesn't really get all the defensive responsibility because naturally Neeskens and Matthaus will both come and defend as well as attacking.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is Law on the right, wouldn't he nornally be better utilized as a CF?

I knew you would love it!

It's simple, it wasn't the natural game of any of these three to hold. This whole thing about "one stays back" doesn't really fly, just get someone who stays back, holds and can help make play to boot. Not a Pirlo but, errr, a Varela? He is on the bench, for some reason.

The fundamental problem is that if that midfield is to work, it will be by keeping the team compact, with little space/distance between the lines... And Joga isn't playing like that because he knows full well it's nothing like what Nasazzi did and, dare I say, for all of Scirea's libero play he was part of a catenaccio defence and catenaccio defences don't play like that either.

The midfield and CB pair are incompatible, plain and simple.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I knew you would love it!

It's simple, it wasn't the natural game of any of these three to hold. This whole thing about "one stays back" doesn't really fly, just get someone who stays back, holds and can help make play to boot. Not a Pirlo but, errr, a Varela? He is on the bench, for some reason.

The fundamental problem is that if that midfield is to work, it will be by keeping the team compact, with little space/distance between the lines... And Joga isn't playing like that because he knows full well it's nothing like what Nasazzi did and, dare I say, for all of Scirea's libero play he was part of a catenaccio defence and catenaccio defences don't play like that either.

The midfield and CB pair are incompatible, plain and simple.

And I knew you wouldn't!

 

[green_smiley]

I am confident my wing-play will be able to stretch Joga's midfield, and Muller will benefit a lot from the crosses supplied to him in the box, with Di Stefano behind him. On the other hand, his attack from the centre of the field will give my defense some headache

 

[antohan]

And I knew you wouldn't!

So you don't see a fundamental problem with three box-to-box midfielders in front of a deep-siting defence?

Pockets of space galore.

 

[green_smiley]

So you don't see a fundamental problem with three box-to-box midfielders in front of a deep-siting defence?

Pockets of space galore.

I see Keane is deployed more as a DM than a B2B here

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

So you don't see a fundamental problem with three box-to-box midfielders in front of a deep-siting defence?

Pockets of space galore.

I see it, I just see Keane & Scirea as intelligent enough footballers to make sure these gaps are being closed by a little bit of limiting themselves to forward runs.

 

[Balu]

I see it, I just see Keane & Scirea as intelligent enough footballers to make sure these gaps are being closed by a little bit of limiting themselves to forward runs.

But why would you play a limited Keane instead of an unlimited Varela?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

But why would you play a limited Keane instead of an unlimited Varela?

That's another question. I was just speaking about the general idea of a 3 box to box midfielders.

 

[Annahnomoss]

But why would you play a limited Keane instead of an unlimited Varela?

I don't think you need a limited version of Keane though. I think a three man midfield with three box to box players is fully functional and has been used well too. It is a problem almost always though because at least one of the b2b midfielders can't perform his defensive role without the need of cover and help from others - which is when a defensive midfielder is a must. Like if you use Gerrard etc.

But these three box to box midfielders are all great defensively, and the offensive role would be interchangeable depending on who gets the best space/chance to bomb forward during the transition. Green Smiley will have a more composed attack as Di Stefano and Muller are his main goal threats and Di Stefano is supposed to cover for Matthäus which means he will be very far back when his team wins the ball. Di Stefano will want to be involved from the build up play all the way until he is inside the box to finish chances with Muller too, which will need a slower build up so he can make that way.

That is no negative to GS, I think that is the best way for him to get the best out of his team and Di Stefano and Muller are his main goalscorers.

It does mean that Joga will sit deeper and will create a lot of his chances through aggressive ball winning where his central midfielders all excel. Matthäus will have a good chance to use his ball carrying as Di Stefano is supposed to cover him, but he most often won't be close enough when a transition happens to do so. Neeskens on the other hand is up against Gerson who can get overrun, especially when Cruyff links up with Neeskens in that area.

Considering Keane has no man on him as Gerson covers the LCM, Di Stefano covers the RCM and Rijkaard covers Cruyff - there will be plenty of times in the match where Neeskens and Matthäus will take the defensive roles as Keane has a great chance to burst forward without anybody covering him.

When Cruyff moves wide with Rijkaard and Matthäus and Neeskens are covered by Gerson/Di Stefano then there is a huge hole in the center for Keane to exploit. In a usual box to box pairing you have to interchange the offensive and defensive role rather than having one doing one of them always and the other sticking strictly to the other role.

 

[green_smiley]

Unless Muller tracks way back to defend, else it is likely to be Keane vs. Moore/Charles near the box, assuming all Joga's midfielders and forwards are in attacking mode

 

[MDFC Manager]

The 3 similar central midfielders debate is interesting, but its also masking how Denis Law has been shoehorned here, IMO. I haven't had the time to read the writeups but surely that is a sore point, in the second round of an unrestricted all time draft?

 

[MDFC Manager]

However, I do like the idea behind that shoehorning, giving the false nine kinda role to Cryuff

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am confident my wing-play will be able to stretch Joga's midfield, and Muller will benefit a lot from the crosses supplied to him in the box, with Di Stefano behind him. On the other hand, his attack from the centre of the field will give my defense some headache

No doubt about your offense. Dzajic and Brehme is great and so Zanetti and Littbarski and with Muller and Di Stefano hopefully in the box it will lead to chances and you have the players to capitalize on it. It looks pretty close to perfect and if you could have allowed to let Rijkaard enter the box too it would be beyond spooky with even random crosses floating inside the box.

What is the reasoning behind the weird tactics in the defense though? Nobody is covering for Keane if he wants to make a run. Di Stefano is covering Matthäus which seems an impossible task if he wants to be a goalscorer too which he was.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Tactical change - Varela comes on for Keane. Varela wasn't too pleased to be on the bench tbh and now I have to face an angry Keano.

.

Anyway the gap between midfield and defense and lack of an anchor is removed now and Lothar and Neeskens would have more freedom here but with the same compartmentalised roles.

Will post the formation picture in a while, will be back soon.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is Law on the right, wouldn't he nornally be better utilized as a CF?

The 3 similar central midfielders debate is interesting, but its also masking how Denis Law has been shoehorned here, IMO. I haven't had the time to read the writeups but surely that is a sore point, in the second round of an unrestricted all time draft?

Denis Law mainly played as an inside right/left for United and it was his primary position with the centre-forward position being his secondary one. It was Herd or Sadler who were mainly our spear-heading centre-forwards and although Law can play that role to a high level, he stated that this was his preferred position.

In fact this is what I wrote in my write-up. I labelled it as shoehorning Law up top. Must be surprising and it was to me as well, when I started watching the 60s United exclusively. I was surprised to see Law barely playing as a centre forward in the 10 or so matches (a fair few being the MOTD condensed 45 mins vids) that I watched him in. I even PM-ed Moriarty, a United fan who grew up watching the 60s and he confirmed my suspicions.

Law was much much more than a pure centre-forward and he would do a great job there of course, but why not use his full skill-set when it presents itself. The most astonishing thing was me was how deadly he was despite playing in such an all-round role, trying to involve himself in play as much as possible. Really does make his already phenomenal goalscoring record all the more remarkable.

Law is playing as the incisive goalscoring inside right in this set-up. Enough of shoehorning Law into set-ups with him being stranded up top as a limited poacher. Law was clearly much much more than that and it's about time he was allowed to exhibit his Ballon d'Or winning talents for once. Contrary to popular belief, Law mostly played as an inside left/right for United with Herd or Sadler being the traditional centre-forward in the 60s. Inside left/right was his primary position and he only filled in as a traditional spear-heading centre-forward at times due to injuries or suspensions. Paints his goalscoring record in a whole new light doesn't it?

Law loved dropping deep and getting in the thick of things. His main assets were his link-up ability and his effervescent play which meant that despite being involved in the build up play, he was always on the end of things when the play reached the box. His timing of runs and ability to be in the right place at the right time were simply phenomenal to say the least. He was ubiquitous on the pitch and loved getting stuck in and contributing to the defensive phase of the game. Rarely did he ever stay up the pitch, waiting for the ball to come to him but rather looked to actively involve himself in the proceedings. Law's athleticism, industry and dynamic game bodes well and provides a nice balance when not in possession, with Rivaldo being more phlegmatic in his game-play, off the ball.

I've already gone in depth about the Law-Neeskens tandem in post 43 and I think they would work brilliantly together.

Here is a in-depth write up on his game-play which includes a great vid

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-all-time-auction-draft.404567/page-48#post-17557389

and some gifs of his match performances (the FA Cup Final one is a must watch to understand what I'm talking about here whilst the Tottenham one is more similar to this match-up) .

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-all-time-auction-draft.404567/page-61#post-17667744

However, I do like the idea behind that shoehorning, giving the false nine kinda role to Cryuff

He did play as the false 9 with regularity for Ajax, Holland and Barcelona tbf and it was his usual role. Tbh, I don't know what to call his role as he went far and beyond the #9 role and didn't restrict himself to the foward line alone, he could be found dropping all the way back to defense, collecting the ball from the keeper even. In the penalty in the WC 74 final, he started the run as the deepest Dutch player on the pitch. He generally played as the false CF in a forward trio and I have gone more in depth about how the forward line will work in the OP. Will just post the relevant bits.

Certain forward trios tend to feature three central forwards, who end up fighting for the same central area on the pitch and would actually be better off playing with wingers or wide players. It couldn't be further from the truth here. Cruyff was an extremely rapid and mobile false 9 who loved dropping deep and hardly functioned as your traditional spear-heading centre forward. He was tactically astute, extremely two footed and had fantastic vision, qualities which he allied with searing pace and dribbling skills, meaning he was dangerous on just about anywhere on the pitch - be it when dropping deep and dictating play or onto either flank and delivering a telling ball/cross.

This naturally gave more freedom and room for his fellow inside forwards to thrive in and at least one of them loved running into the recently vacated space by Cruyff (mostly Law in this case). Cruyff has excelled in various front trios as the false 9 with 2 inside forwards for company. Keizer-Cruyff-Rep for Ajax, Resenbrink-Cruyff-Rep for Holland and Rexach-Cruyff-Sotil for Barca. Ideally a creative, direct and technical inside left and a goalscoring and incisive inside right. It is a fluid set-up in which I expect Cruyff to thrive in.

He is the main reason why I expect that forward trio to function, any other traditional centre-forward would make it completely dysfunctional.

Also apologies for the extended essays in the OP and the gifs overload. Will keep them limited in the future and yeah, I'm in favour of a maximum limit of gifs/vids in the OP from now on.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Skizzo

Thanks

 

[Fergus' son]

If I haven't read the ops fully, would you still want me to vote or not really? Upto you guys, don't think I will get a chanc to read through the whole thing before the poll closes and not sure I want to either (not doubting the quality of the write up as the participants posts that I have read in other threads are always great but it's just too long!).