Scholes 06-09 played with Keane?
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: Final - MJJ/Crappy vs Skizzo/Pat | Skizzo/Pat win!
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I was surprised that even after his France performances as CB, he was not played as a CB in the CL finals when Baresi and Costacurta were suspended.
Don't think there's much difference between his club and NT form. He was successful at both levels.
Did I ever claim both of them were a proven partnership?
I don't mean it as a criticism of Brown really who had a very good season, but I do rate Gallas as the better player.
Let's not forget that MJJ had a meltdown to rival Keegan and Benitez...which had such a detrimental effect on their respective teams. Sure to play a part here is the overwhelming confidence in his players. ..
Wow this is one sided. I thought Skizzo might be winning so wanted to even the scores a bit as this is too close to call, but 15-6 after my vote.
Well played both teams. Cracking teams.
Well played both teams. Cracking teams.
your AM did.
I wouldnt call it a melt down, call it mourinhistic mind games or giving my honest opinion.(Although that was when I assumed you guys were playing a 4-3-3).Let's not forget that MJJ had a meltdown to rival Keegan and Benitez...which had such a detrimental effect on their respective teams. Sure to play a part here is the overwhelming confidence in his players. ..
Argue the point with him then?
It was more like a mourinho mind game with the physio.
Oe! Have some respect, would never fire someone that looks like eva :drools:
Apologies...that was a low blow. I do imagine you have more sense than that
Silva at the tip of the diamond would have called for Henry or Suarez to be played as a left-sided attacker which isn't ideal. If MJJ/Crappy had Giggs/Beckham as wingers to round off the Keane/Scholes central midfield (not possible given the restrictions but you see my point) then we'd have been forced to play a three man midfield. As it is we know we can compete there as neither Ginola or Overmars will tuck infield to give the extra man, and Suarez will put in the more effective performance off the ball than Bergkamp for that matter.
The differences between what we've fielded versus the 4-3-3 aren't that great anyway. Silva will be coming infield alot when we're in possession, and Henry will of course be working the left side of our attack relentlessly. Out of possession, it'll be Suarez dropping back to defend centrally, while Silva drops back to the eft wing.
It has been a long established fact that I'm Mourinho. I grate my opponents and even poked Tito in the eye after mindgaming him into dropping Garrincha while cruising ahead in a semifinal.
So I win
Tito is such a nice manager, would be a travesty if he lost this now, like Bobby Robson losing to Mourinho (or some other unscrupulous so and so) !
Antohan: Antohan
TITO: TITO, DanNistelrooy, Jiggs'Hamstring
And there's Jaybezia to boot wanting to change his vote.
Why is dan's vote banned?
Edit: I see what you mean now. Yeah Jiggs'Hamstring is my assistant so his vote doesn't count!
Its a travesty, a dark day for the game!
Right then lads, follow my lead... Get into them!!!
RIP hopes of the footballing world, courtesy of Fefo Eyzaguirre
There's nothing wrong with the setup, it will work just like it did in the previous game. I see absolutely no point in Silva/Ronaldo starting from more withdrawn positions though. This will be a high scoring game and you should just impose yourself and make sure you outscore the opposition. You aren't doing that though.
A few points.
Vieria and Alonso are a great combo. The main reason for Vieria having a DM was positional, to allow him to break forward more not because he was poor defensively. The only reason it could be an issue is the lack of work rate from Skizzo's wingers- MJJ is right it's more of a 4222 so a more combative DM, rather than a DLP, would have been very handy as Skizz looks vulnerable to the counter with his fullbacks with little protection. Overmars burning the Bridge to cross to Shearer is a really route to goal- also Overmars' defensive contribution is being under rate too: Ginola is obviously lazy. That said Campbell and Desially are a great CB pair. Re-Desially I think it's fine in all-time drafts to take most of his Milan form playing him at CB. It's not like his skill set wasn't suited to CB then. To say you have to have the Chelsea Desially if you want to play him at CB ignores the fantasy aspect and restricts managers choices too much.
Skizz's attack looks rather narrow which plays into MJJ's hands to some extent although when it clicks it would be devastating- I was never a Southgate fan. That said I think it would be more functional with a proper right winger with decent work rate. Nani or Kanchelskis would have worked well as a replacement for Suarez or Henry.
Overall this will be high scoring and close but I think the overall cohesiveness and better fullbacks will allow MJJ/Crappy to defend and exploit the space on the counter.
MJJ to win 3-2
Vieria and Alonso are a great combo. The main reason for Vieria having a DM was positional, to allow him to break forward more not because he was poor defensively. The only reason it could be an issue is the lack of work rate from Skizzo's wingers- MJJ is right it's more of a 4222 so a more combative DM, rather than a DLP, would have been very handy as Skizz looks vulnerable to the counter with his fullbacks with little protection. Overmars burning the Bridge to cross to Shearer is a really route to goal- also Overmars' defensive contribution is being under rate too: Ginola is obviously lazy. That said Campbell and Desially are a great CB pair. Re-Desially I think it's fine in all-time drafts to take most of his Milan form playing him at CB. It's not like his skill set wasn't suited to CB then. To say you have to have the Chelsea Desially if you want to play him at CB ignores the fantasy aspect and restricts managers choices too much.
Skizz's attack looks rather narrow which plays into MJJ's hands to some extent although when it clicks it would be devastating- I was never a Southgate fan. That said I think it would be more functional with a proper right winger with decent work rate. Nani or Kanchelskis would have worked well as a replacement for Suarez or Henry.
Overall this will be high scoring and close but I think the overall cohesiveness and better fullbacks will allow MJJ/Crappy to defend and exploit the space on the counter.
MJJ to win 3-2
Maybe we should have pushed him forward a bit on the team sheet, but we're playing 2007-08 Ronaldo so he's attacking at will here with Gallas holding the fort behind him. Silva is starting from the more withdrawn position as we want him pulling the strings and knitting together the midfield and the attack.
Thank you! Was thinking I was crazy since everyone else was ignoring this.
It has been a long established fact that I'm Mourinho. I grate my opponents and even poked Tito in the eye after mindgaming him into dropping Garrincha while cruising ahead in a semifinal.
RIP hopes of the footballing world, courtesy of Fefo Eyzaguirre
I would love it if you played again and pulled antics like that.Good points on Vieira/Alonso. Positionally they'll work brilliantly together and they have a great range of qualities, but I'd accept that there's better players than Alonso at covering for the full backs.
The better full backs thing has cropped up repeatedly now. Gallas is getting underrated significantly IMO, and he's an ideal fit as the defensive right back behind Ronaldo, in the same vein as Wes Brown in 2007-08. Stuart Pearce hasn't attracted much comment either, but he was past his best by the time the PL started and for all his blood-and-thunder approach to the game he wasn't a brilliant defender at that stage of his career. From Brian Clough's autobiography:
'That last season' was 1992-93, the first PL season, when Forest got relegated, and his PL career resumed in 1994-95 when he was already 32 years old. I'm having a tough time imagining him getting any sort of joy against 2007-08 Cristiano Ronaldo whatsoever.
I am not sure what Skizzo/Pat are trying to sell here. Silva for me absolutely does not work in a 442. It is that subtle difference between that and 4222 that allows him to function on the wings, albeit not at his full capacity. Even for Spain when they played a gazillion midfielders in their team, he was one of the midfielders who more playing as a forward than a proper deeper CM. So all this talk about him tilting the midfield battle is odd.
The talk of Keane and Scholes not being proven is a much of muchness. They have an understanding with each other, that will not evaporate if a younger version plays with an older one. A proper B2B CM alongside a deep lying CM is pretty much the perfect combo for any variation of 4231.
I also don't understand how they have constructed this narrative of Overmars being a lazy player. He is not someone like Park or Beckham who will put in a proper shift but he is not a modern day wing forward. He will chip in and track his man out wide. Ginola is less likely to do so but it is less of an issue since Ronaldo also on the same side is most definitely is not going to track back.
Gallas at RB is getting a free ride here IMO. His best was most definitely as a center back while Ivanovic's peak has been as a RB only. I am not even sure if as a right back he ever neutralized as tricky a winger as Ginola.
Then there is the fact Alonso's peak has also come out side PL. Madrid's Alonso is easily superior to whatever version of Alonso we saw in PL. Vieira throughout his career excelled alongside a proper DM ala Silva/Makelele. PL's Alonso is most definitely not that kind of player.
I personally still don't get how peak Henry, peak Suarez and C-Ron 07/08 all fit in this together and will work in a set up. It seems to be a case of throw in big attractive names up front and it will work. MJJ's Madrid example is extremely pertinent one here, I think people wrongly attribute all their failings to lack of a Makelele type of player. It was definitely a case of cramming up too many superstars up front and not getting the best out of any or at least not all of them. Even in United's case, there have been several debates that someone like Rooney could not play his best role in 07/08 alongside Ronaldo and Tevez.
The talk of Keane and Scholes not being proven is a much of muchness. They have an understanding with each other, that will not evaporate if a younger version plays with an older one. A proper B2B CM alongside a deep lying CM is pretty much the perfect combo for any variation of 4231.
I also don't understand how they have constructed this narrative of Overmars being a lazy player. He is not someone like Park or Beckham who will put in a proper shift but he is not a modern day wing forward. He will chip in and track his man out wide. Ginola is less likely to do so but it is less of an issue since Ronaldo also on the same side is most definitely is not going to track back.
Gallas at RB is getting a free ride here IMO. His best was most definitely as a center back while Ivanovic's peak has been as a RB only. I am not even sure if as a right back he ever neutralized as tricky a winger as Ginola.
Then there is the fact Alonso's peak has also come out side PL. Madrid's Alonso is easily superior to whatever version of Alonso we saw in PL. Vieira throughout his career excelled alongside a proper DM ala Silva/Makelele. PL's Alonso is most definitely not that kind of player.
I personally still don't get how peak Henry, peak Suarez and C-Ron 07/08 all fit in this together and will work in a set up. It seems to be a case of throw in big attractive names up front and it will work. MJJ's Madrid example is extremely pertinent one here, I think people wrongly attribute all their failings to lack of a Makelele type of player. It was definitely a case of cramming up too many superstars up front and not getting the best out of any or at least not all of them. Even in United's case, there have been several debates that someone like Rooney could not play his best role in 07/08 alongside Ronaldo and Tevez.
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard not that it matters now given the votes but you still havetn said what shape your side will take when defending.
Getting a bit out of hand to be honest. Gallas easily performed to a higher level as a right back for Mourinho and Alonso peaked at Liverpool defensively, while he grew as a playmaker at Madrid. Given the option of both there is no doubt you would want the Pool Alonso one here next to Vieira and he is one of the better deep lying playmakers defensively in a long time - better than Scholes as well in that regard. His tackling/interceptions at Liverpool was amazing.
Overmars is not a lazy winger either, defensively I'd say he's good for a winger and alright for a wide midfielder. Ivanovic and Gallas are both good picks even for a final considering how much they add to the aerial part of it and here we have Shearer on one side and then Ronaldo/Suarez/Henry on the other who are all excellent headers of the ball.
The Silva argument is just a anything-to-win-the-draft argument, City's shape looks way better with Navas on the other side and that is exactly how Skizzo/Pat are set up. Silva floating around in a free role and then Ronaldo on the other side. A winger who acts as a playmaker and loves to cut inside combined with a more natural winger is hardly some odd tactical decision - it is more or less the look of a bunch of the best winger "pairs" like Giggs/Becks, Ribery/Robben, Neymar/Messi, Ronaldo-Tevez/Rooney etc.
Even Ginola/Overmars won't be providing width all the time and they'll want to cut inside and be involved with the play as well.
Both midfield/forwards looks exceptional and tactically spot on.
"Anything to win the draft" @Annahnomoss, I posted a whole article by Cox in which he argued the exact same thing we have been saying about silva. Is he part of this draft as well?
Edit-Alonso also averaged 1.6 interceptions per game and 2.1 tackles per game in 2008/9 compared to scholes 2.9 tackles and 1.4 interceptions in 2009/10 (would guess these numbers are higher in 2006).
So please tell me how its getting out of hand again?
Edit-Alonso also averaged 1.6 interceptions per game and 2.1 tackles per game in 2008/9 compared to scholes 2.9 tackles and 1.4 interceptions in 2009/10 (would guess these numbers are higher in 2006).
So please tell me how its getting out of hand again?
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It's true that Gallas was at his best at CB but he's really playing RCB here so it isn't really an issue.
@Annahnomoss I think the Silva argument has some merit given that it isn't an obvious 433 or 4231. With a proper winger and a more central position (more of a third midfielder) he'd be fine
@Annahnomoss I think the Silva argument has some merit given that it isn't an obvious 433 or 4231. With a proper winger and a more central position (more of a third midfielder) he'd be fine
Skizzo/Pat arguably has got better wingers, but the biggest mismatch will be Overmars vs Bridge. Overmars will get the better quite often and Campebll will be hard pressed to cover. This also means Skizzo's relatively narrow attack will sorely lack width from Bridge and Silva will probably spend time deeper trying to get the ball in wide areas.
I like Skizzo's front 4 better, but overall I think MJJ is likely to sneak in a goal here.
Skizzo has burnt his Bridge here.
I like Skizzo's front 4 better, but overall I think MJJ is likely to sneak in a goal here.
Skizzo has burnt his Bridge here.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/may/14/premierleague3
This is from Opta Stats, comparing players across different criterias. I dont see alonso anywhere, do you?
This is from Opta Stats, comparing players across different criterias. I dont see alonso anywhere, do you?
Disagree with a fair bit of that actually Annah.
Even in a 4-3-3 I don't particularly like Silva as a wide player as he's always been better centrally, and in a 4-4-2 it looks even less ideal.
Disagree on Alonso as well, he was a better player at Real in all respects IMO and I would say peaked around 2012 midway through his period in Madrid.
Something seems slightly off with the partnership as well for me, particularly when compared to the wonderful Keane/Scholes pairing. Maybe it's just because neither of them played in the Premiership with similar players, but it doesn't seem immediately obvious to me that they'll work great together the way Keane/Scholes will. I think both would be better paired with a more defensive player, such as Mascherano.
I personally think Keane/Scholes is getting way underrated here - it's barely gotten a mention when both players are comfortably better than their counterparts on the other team. Obviously that's partly MJJ's Crappys for not talking about it enough.
Even in a 4-3-3 I don't particularly like Silva as a wide player as he's always been better centrally, and in a 4-4-2 it looks even less ideal.
Disagree on Alonso as well, he was a better player at Real in all respects IMO and I would say peaked around 2012 midway through his period in Madrid.
Something seems slightly off with the partnership as well for me, particularly when compared to the wonderful Keane/Scholes pairing. Maybe it's just because neither of them played in the Premiership with similar players, but it doesn't seem immediately obvious to me that they'll work great together the way Keane/Scholes will. I think both would be better paired with a more defensive player, such as Mascherano.
I personally think Keane/Scholes is getting way underrated here - it's barely gotten a mention when both players are comfortably better than their counterparts on the other team. Obviously that's partly MJJ's Crappys for not talking about it enough.
"This means that Nasri, while a talented all-round attacking player, isn't the ideal player to start on the opposite flanks -- he's too similar to Silva." The difference is that Ronaldo is nothing like Nasri who is even more centrally oriented than Silva, creating their 4-2-2-2, which means they have two attacking midfielders playing at the same time.
Ronaldo was nothing like an attacking central midfielder and hence they aren't playing a 4-2-2-2 which you are critiquing, I don't think a lot of people like that formation in general and agree with your points about it though.
I am not saying you have to like Silva as a wide player in any formation, just saying that it makes no sense to call Skizzo/Pat's team a 4-2-2-2 when Ronaldo is on the other side. Claiming they are playing 4-2-2-2 then arguing for that formation and tactic being bad is missing the point a lot. It is like playing a 4-3-3 and banging on about how a 5-3-2 is bad.
With regards to work rate, defensive nous nasri and ronaldo are similar, the whole point of the article is that you need a enabler/grafter to balance a midfield like skizzpat. Someone like a mascherano, makelele, park, hargreaves,milner,etc. It wont function otherwise.
Can't compare Touré with Vieira, the latter is a world class box-to-box midfielder and one of the best midfielders defensively in EPL history. Partnered with Alonso who is defensively very good as well you have a midfield partnership almost exactly like your own stylistically. Like I said, one thing is to argue whether or not you like Silva or his midfield but saying it is a 4-2-2-2 is simply incorrect.
Alonso also had 2.7 tackles per game and 1.6 interceptions, very similar to Scholes who was a very good ball winner too. His defensive statistics also looks a lot better for Madrid though, I was likely wrong with that and he was probably a step further defensively there.(His mindblowing statistics are from that period too.)
"If there ever was a player moulded in the Liverpool way, it was Alonso as he was comfortable in possession with the vision to spot passes and the ability to execute them. He was also a tough customer and maybe Rafa didn’t expect that he would boast one of the best rates of successful tackles in the Premiership." Could be biased considering it is from a Liverpool website.
I said that a few posts up
Thats why am arguing that his wings will be exposed, not the midfield. Vieira and Alonso are good but they will have their hands full in midfield to help out on the wings. Call it a 4-2-2-2 with wingers then? Because its not a flat 4-4-2 which is what the opening graphic potrays. I expect them to line up like this in reality.
-----Henry--Suarez---
-Silva-------------Ronaldo--
------Vieira-Alonso
With vieira playing his box to box role, that leaves the defense, particularly the fullbacks very exposed. It will also help undermine his strong central pair as one of them will be drifting wide and a lot of the anus will be on alonso to connect the play from defense to midfield. Something he will find hard with scholes and keane there.
On Gallas, I still don't think his peak came at right back for Chelsea.
I have complete opposite opinion to yours when it comes to Alonso. Infact I would argue he was much better defensively for Madrid than for Liverpool. In his last CL winning season for Madrid, he was the most defensive midfielder in the MF 3, even before that whilst playing alongside Khedira he took on more defensive duties while the former played the B2B role.
Regarding Silva, first of all there simply can not be an argument that he is better playing/staring in a central position than a wide one. In current city team, he starts behind Aguero with Sterling on left. Even earlier on, City often used to dominate more when they moved him from out wide to center. Comparison between Navas and Ronaldo 07/08 is also odd. That version of Ron is not likely to provide width ala Navas, he is more likely to join Suarez and Henry in the middle.
It is a bloody United forum. Posters on here should not need telling how great those 2 were.
Though I have been baffled recently how younger posters on here who never saw Keane's peak live have started to underrate him.
I said that a few posts up
Thats why am arguing that his wings will be exposed, not the midfield. Vieira and Alonso are good but they will have their hands full in midfield to help out on the wings. Call it a 4-2-2-2 with wingers then? Because its not a flat 4-4-2 which is what the opening graphic potrays. I expect them to line up like this in reality.
-----Henry--Suarez---
-Silva-------------Ronaldo--
------Vieira-Alonso
With vieira playing his box to box role, that leaves the defense, particularly the fullbacks very exposed. It will also help undermine his strong central pair as one of them will be drifting wide and a lot of the anus will be on alonso to connect the play from defense to midfield. Something he will find hard with scholes and keane there.
Why not just a 4-4-2 with wingers you don't believe will track back enough?I said that a few posts up
Thats why am arguing that his wings will be exposed, not the midfield. Vieira and Alonso are good but they will have their hands full in midfield to help out on the wings. Call it a 4-2-2-2 with wingers then? Because its not a flat 4-4-2 which is what the opening graphic potrays. I expect them to line up like this in reality.
-----Henry--Suarez---
-Silva-------------Ronaldo--
------Vieira-Alonso
With vieira playing his box to box role, that leaves the defense, particularly the fullbacks very exposed. It will also help undermine his strong central pair as one of them will be drifting wide and a lot of the anus will be on alonso to connect the play from defense to midfield. Something he will find hard with scholes and keane there.
But on topic, its going to be an open match. Of course Overmars will get some joy against Bridge, Ginola less so against the defensively excellent Gallas. On the other hand, you're every bit as vulnerable out wide. Pearce was past his best by the time the PL started, he was relegated for Forest in a personally poor season for him, then only reappeared in the PL aged 32. Ronldo is an awful match up for him, and Southgate offers some fairly weak support on that left side of your defence.
On the topic of Ginola, his career at Newcastle nosedived pretty quickly the season Shearer joined the club, and IIRC he wasn't a regular starter by the end of that season:
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11677/2190322/ginola-hits-out-at-shearer
Because its described as 4-2-2-2 with wingers on FM
Who else is going to pass the ball from your defense to your attack? No question, ronaldo is going to cause a lot of issues but he doesnt have the right support cast around him here like he did at man utd.
But on topic, its going to be an open match. Of course Overmars will get some joy against Bridge, Ginola less so against the defensively excellent Gallas. On the other hand, you're every bit as vulnerable out wide. Pearce was past his best by the time the PL started, he was relegated for Forest in a personally poor season for him, then only reappeared in the PL aged 32. Ronldo is an awful match up for him, and Southgate offers some fairly weak support on that left side of your defence.
On the topic of Ginola, his career at Newcastle nosedived pretty quickly the season Shearer joined the club, and IIRC he wasn't a regular starter by the end of that season:
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11677/2190322/ginola-hits-out-at-shearer
Yeah if you have to sign the praises of keane and scholes on a united forum you know something is wrong.
W.r.t keane, there was a comparision thread between keane and scholes earlier. Was weird how many felt scholes was a better midfielder.
The green smiley was for the typo that noone else seems to have picked up on.
The supporting cast is actually rather similar to Utd's 07-08 formation, or one of the formations we played at least. Defensive right back playing behind him - Gallas here instead of Brown. Wide midfielder playing on the left side of midfield and cutting in when we're in possession to create - David Silva for Giggs. Two mobile, creative forwards - Henry/Suarez for Rooney/Tevez, with Henry sharing Rooney's inclination to drift wide on the left and Suarez sharing Tevez's workrate. Alonso is similar in style to that version of Scholes, while Vieira has a different style but is significantly better than Carrick.
Ronaldo's got a fine supporting cast and he'll roast Pearce here.
That's my point - I'm shocked myself how underrated that pairing seems to be getting because numerous people have said that the midfield battle is even.
Disagree that you don't need to argue your case though - it's down to you to argue why Keane/Scholes will win the game.