The Three Leagues Draft - 2nd SF

[Skizzo]

In the last match, Aldo and The Stain brought up the elephant in the room, and it wasn't the first time someone had questioned it. Van Der Sar's time at Juventus was considered as, at best, a mixed bag. Supporters seem to think they didn't have a top keeper, and I think we can all agree that it wasn't the best version of Edwin.

That being said, Enigma and Snow have mentioned that his second season may have been a bit up and down, but he was consistent in his first season based on the amount of goals conceded. While it seems the basis for a good argument, we wanted to dig a little deeper to try and get a better idea of the whole picture.

That 1999/2000 season in Serie A, Juventus finished 2nd, losing on the last day of the season. While they did indeed have the least amount of goals conceded, there is much more to the story than it being because of Van Der Sar's brilliance.

Juventus that season also scored less than any other team in the top 8. That includes teams as varied as Lazio to Udinese. Basically put, their game involved playing a style which kept it tight at the back, through players like Ferrara, Montero, and midfield machines like Davids.

21 games that season Juventus scored a goal or less. That's with an attacking unit including Zidane, Del Piero, and Inzaghi.

The fact he conceded 20 goals isn't a reflection of how well he played, but a reflection of Juventus' style of play that season. Is it any surprise that in his second season, where he is widely recognized as being "unstable" and "inconsistent", Juventus scored almost 20 goals more! The fact their play became more open suddenly showed the lack of assurance they had at the back.

So with that in mind, let's look at some of his games...keeping in mind these are all from his first season, where he was allegedly quite good.


Here's Marcelo Salas ripping a shot outside the box for Lazio.

Spoiler

He also had a bit of a nightmare against Inter Milan in December of that first year. First of all he was lucky to stay on the field after this incident in which he takes out Zamorano

Spoiler

Although later on, he followed it up with this. Managed to make a mess of the tackle (which he somehow got away with) and was red carded for a handball outside the box (incorrectly)

Spoiler

And here is his game against Hellas Verona, a 2 goal defeat in which he was far from convincing in his performance. Starting off, he parries a shot from outside the box right to the onrushing attacker. Fortunately for VDS, the striker couldn't make it count.

Spoiler

The breakthrough did come not long after. Maybe not totally at fault, as it was a nice turn and finish, but no keeper wants to see themselves beaten at the near post.

Spoiler

Into the second half, and parrying a shot back to a striker. Takes a last ditch tackle to stop them conceding again.

Spoiler

And here's the second goal, again, looking a little suspect in how he was beaten.

Spoiler

And we already know how the second season went overall. Summed up again by a poster from a Juventus forum

I remember the Roma game where we drew 2-2, and $#@!ing Montella scored in the last minute which eventually secured them the title. And I think it was the Hellas Verona game in the previous season where Van der Sar screwed up again.

Here's the Roma game, parrying a shot from outside the box right to the attacker...again.

Spoiler

So all in all, I think we can wrap this up with a quite from this list.

TL/DR

TOP 10 MOGGI FLOPS

10. Edwin Van Der Sar
The first foreign goalkeeper in Juventus’ history, the Dutchman was netted from Ajax as the club attempted to replace the legendary Angelo Peruzzi. After a mediocre first season, it is Van Der Sar’s second – and last campaign – that will be remembered for the wrong reasons. A string of howlers, including a dodgy performance against Lazio, even saw his eyesight questioned. Blamed by many for the loss of the Scudetto, he left for Fulham and was replaced by Gigi Buffon in 2001.

 

[Enigma_87]

It is, and a good choice to cover for Marcelo. Just a shame to waste Davids that way. Your new formation look great btw

thanks mate. Yeah, especially looking at Alaba's qualities and his tactical sense he'd be great there as well, but it's better for the team. I knew that would be the starting point, which is why I've put those comments in the reinforcement round and there will be objections for it, but at the end it was mainly due to thinking that S/P will field Basler instead of Moller. This formation is better for the game/team without sacrificing Davids.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not gonna lie, your post confused me here since you merged the two teams together when talking about their faults?

I'll address what I think was aimed at our team:

Totti was more of a playmaker than Baggio, but you don't become the second highest Serie A scorer without knowing how to find the net. Yes, he has the benefit of longevity on his side, but he's played as the main man leading the line, as well as playmaker and support striker. You put movement around him, and other threats up top with him, and he'll find them and play off them.

We also have goal scorers from midfield, so we don't just have to rely on our front three...but to say we have too many playmakers implies we don't have a real goal threat. With Klinsmann, Totti and Moller all having a good game to goal ratio, it wouldn't be an issue.

Sorry about the confusion, edited to make more sense. All I'm trying to say is that I have issues with both front threes.

I'm a big fan of Totti, my issue is the compatibility of him with Moller. He did play all the roles you cite above but I don't remember him playing with a 10. Also you definitely have goals, no question there.

 

[harms]

Great research @Skizzo

 

[Skizzo]

Sorry about the confusion, edited to make more sense. All I'm trying to say is that I have issues with both front threes.

I'm a big fan of Totti, my issue is the compatibility of him with Moller. He did play all the roles you cite above but I don't remember him playing with a 10. Also you definitely have goals, no question there.

No worries, just making sure I wasn't going crazy

Check the post I made on the previous page in regards to Totti/Moller. We'll have some more incoming too, but the goal he scored that I posted shows him dropping deep to receive the ball, then turning and running at the defense as the movement ahead of him opens things up. I feel we highlighted Moller's ability in the previous matches already as to his ability to run in beyond the strikers to get on the end of things.

The movement of Moller and Klinsmann opens things up for Totti in ways that would give him space to thrive. Especially as he basically here draws Lucio out of that back line to pick him up.

 

[Enigma_87]

Digging deeper at the Kicker ratings and something that it has been mentioned quite a lot given the draft terms - here's a good indication of our CB pair:

Lucio has been chosen as 3 times WC level during his BuLi time:

3x Manfred Kaltz
3x Karlheinz Förster
3x Rune Bratseth
3x Lúcio

^^ looking at the other names at the list.

Best Stopper / Defender / Marker / Central Defender

Most often

12x Karlheinz Förster
11x Jürgen Kohler
7x Lúcio
4x Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck
4x Rolf Rüssmann
4x Marcelo Bordon
4x Mats Hummels

Considering the names there being 3rd on that list should be well appreciated.

Now for Helmer:

Best Libero
1990-2 Thomas Helmer

Best Marker
1995-2 Thomas Helmer
1996-1 Thomas Helmer
1997-2 Thomas Helmer

One of the best markers at the time and appreciated both at Dortmund and Bayern.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In the last match, Aldo and The Stain brought up the elephant in the room, and it wasn't the first time someone had questioned it. Van Der Sar's time at Juventus was considered as, at best, a mixed bag. Supporters seem to think they didn't have a top keeper, and I think we can all agree that it wasn't the best version of Edwin.

Yes, it's been there from the very beginning of this draft, and here we are in the semi-final. I won't comment too much on this, as the relevant points have been made over and over again, but it seems quite obvious to me that you have a decent case here.

It would be close to a mockery of both the spirit of the draft - and the efforts we're supposed to make to enhance the importance of keepers in these things - if he simply went unquestioned here, as though there was nothing to see.

 

[Enigma_87]

In the last match, Aldo and The Stain brought up the elephant in the room, and it wasn't the first time someone had questioned it. Van Der Sar's time at Juventus was considered as, at best, a mixed bag. Supporters seem to think they didn't have a top keeper, and I think we can all agree that it wasn't the best version of Edwin.

That being said, Enigma and Snow have mentioned that his second season may have been a bit up and down, but he was consistent in his first season based on the amount of goals conceded. While it seems the basis for a good argument, we wanted to dig a little deeper to try and get a better idea of the whole picture.

That 1999/2000 season in Serie A, Juventus finished 2nd, losing on the last day of the season. While they did indeed have the least amount of goals conceded, there is much more to the story than it being because of Van Der Sar's brilliance.

Juventus that season also scored less than any other team in the top 8. That includes teams as varied as Lazio to Udinese. Basically put, their game involved playing a style which kept it tight at the back, through players like Ferrara, Montero, and midfield machines like Davids.

21 games that season Juventus scored a goal or less. That's with an attacking unit including Zidane, Del Piero, and Inzaghi.

The fact he conceded 20 goals isn't a reflection of how well he played, but a reflection of Juventus' style of play that season. Is it any surprise that in his second season, where he is widely recognized as being "unstable" and "inconsistent", Juventus scored almost 20 goals more! The fact their play became more open suddenly showed the lack of assurance they had at the back.

So with that in mind, let's look at some of his games...keeping in mind these are all from his first season, where he was allegedly quite good.


Here's Marcelo Salas ripping a shot outside the box for Lazio.

Spoiler

He also had a bit of a nightmare against Inter Milan in December of that first year. First of all he was lucky to stay on the field after this incident in which he takes out Zamorano

Spoiler

Although later on, he followed it up with this. Managed to make a mess of the tackle (which he somehow got away with) and was red carded for a handball outside the box (incorrectly)

Spoiler

And here is his game against Hellas Verona, a 2 goal defeat in which he was far from convincing in his performance. Starting off, he parries a shot from outside the box right to the onrushing attacker. Fortunately for VDS, the striker couldn't make it count.

Spoiler

The breakthrough did come not long after. Maybe not totally at fault, as it was a nice turn and finish, but no keeper wants to see themselves beaten at the near post.

Spoiler

Into the second half, and parrying a shot back to a striker. Takes a last ditch tackle to stop them conceding again.

Spoiler

And here's the second goal, again, looking a little suspect in how he was beaten.

Spoiler

And we already know how the second season went overall. Summed up again by a poster from a Juventus forum


Here's the Roma game, parrying a shot from outside the box right to the attacker...again.

Spoiler

So all in all, I think we can wrap this up with a quite from this list.

TL/DR

I think it was a topic beaten to death but let's have another hack at it.

First off VDS conceded just 17 goals from open play in his first season, that's a goal every other game. Juventus in their previous season conceded 39. So I think the way they played is not an actual reflection of what you are saying.

The videos above you can see the quality of the pitch there. The two only clear mistakes were the Roma and Lazio goals which are also the main reason why he had such a bad fame during that time. I don't think you can seriously blame him for those 2 Verona goals, which were from point blank?

I'm sure couple of saveable shots is something all great keepers sometimes miss. Let's not forget how well Kahn played in the WC prior to the final and how due to his error Brazil scored in that game. I'd say it's equally bad to what is shown above.


^^ his performance against Roma.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yes, it's been there from the very beginning of this draft, and here we are in the semi-final. I won't comment too much on this, as the relevant points have been made over and over again, but it seems quite obvious to me that you have a decent case here.

It would be close to a mockery of both the spirit of the draft - and the efforts we're supposed to make to enhance the importance of keepers in these things - if he simply went unquestioned here, as though there was nothing to see.

I think it was really overblown in the media. He was never subbed and played the full two seasons, although having real pressure on him the whole time. Sure he made 2 errors against Roma and Lazio, but at the same time he pulled off some quality saves. At the end even if you go by the numbers he kept the lowest goals conceded in those two seasons compared to any other keeper in the league. Let's not make it like it was only the defence as that same defence conceded 39 the previous year, and that defence didn't come to those numbers in the next seasons when they got Buffon.

Sure, he didn't play much in the league, but can't see the difference compared to Chilavert in Gio's side, who spent 2 seasons(and 8 games) at Real Zaragosa, and also taking set pieces there and I see that not even mentioned once since the first round. I think both are comparable situations yet one has never been mentioned and IMO the second one bit overblown given the goal per game record VdS had at the time.

Sure he'll get much flak from the media as he came with big credentials and was the first foreign keeper playing at Juve. If he was that bad as people are making him out to be surely he won't feature in 66 games for those 2 seasons?

Keepers are always like that. Same as Kahn, after that mistake in the WC final, yet his work up to that time completely undone.

 

[Skizzo]

I think it was a topic beaten to death but let's have another hack at it.

First off VDS conceded just 17 goals from open play in his first season, that's a goal every other game. Juventus in their previous season conceded 39. So I think the way they played is not an actual reflection of what you are saying.

The videos above you can see the quality of the pitch there. The two only clear mistakes were the Roma and Lazio goals which are also the main reason why he had such a bad fame during that time. I don't think you can seriously blame him for those 2 Verona goals, which were from point blank?

I'm sure couple of saveable shots is something all great keepers sometimes miss. Let's not forget how well Kahn played in the WC prior to the final and how due to his error Brazil scored in that game. I'd say it's equally bad to what is shown above.


^^ his performance against Roma.

It's been highlighted a lot for a reason. You're trying to oversell his ability, at least in my opinion. Maybe I'm the only one (although based on the attention it received throughout the draft, id think maybe not) but he's not deserving a free ride here.

He got replaced after 2 seasons. If he was doing as well as you say, they'd surely keep him.

The fact that the media jumped on it, the fans didn't rate him, he's listed as one of the top 10 flops, and he was inconsistent and made errors all show that he was far from the reliable keeper you've tried to portray him as so far.

 

[Skizzo]

Great research @Skizzo

Cheers. @Šjor Bepo has raised the stakes again in that regard

Yes, it's been there from the very beginning of this draft, and here we are in the semi-final. I won't comment too much on this, as the relevant points have been made over and over again, but it seems quite obvious to me that you have a decent case here.

It would be close to a mockery of both the spirit of the draft - and the efforts we're supposed to make to enhance the importance of keepers in these things - if he simply went unquestioned here, as though there was nothing to see.

I know it seems fairly nitpicky, especially as it was commented on and highlighted in previous games...but the farther into the draft we go, the more he should be coming under scrutiny. Especially as Zenga is down the other end. Anyway, I've said my piece.

 

[Enigma_87]

Now to the point whether Enrique, Moller and Totti will fit well in that role.

To me Enrique as a CM is a bit of a waste.

Matches as
Right Wing 42
Right Midfield 26
Attacking Midfield 19
Right-Back 6
Centre Forward 6
Left Midfield 6
Central Midfield 5
Left Wing 3
Centre Back

according to transfermarkd. Note it's only an excerpt but having in mind percentage wise Central midfield was the position he least played bar Left wing and center back.

Sure he was pretty versatile, but to me he's better up front either on the right or in #10, the CM one is a bit odd looking to be his best position.

 

[Skizzo]

Sure he was pretty versatile, but to me he's better up front either on the right or in #10, the CM one is a bit odd looking to be his best position.

I don't think we painted it as his best position, did we? We highlighted his ability to do a job there, and why we felt he would work well up against your midfield. We fully expect him to make attacking runs from deep, and also track Modric when he moves forward. He was full of energy and would have no issues moving up and down the field.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers. @Šjor Bepo has raised the stakes again in that regard



I know it seems fairly nitpicky, especially as it was commented on and highlighted in previous games...but the farther into the draft we go, the more he should be coming under scrutiny. Especially as Zenga is down the other end. Anyway, I've said my piece.

I find it odd considering some of the other keepers in the pool only him to be singled out to be fair.

VdS in his first season conceded only 4 times 2 goals in one game and 6 in his second season. Only once in 66 matches he conceded more than 2 goals in the game against Lazio. I don't think he's liability. Sure no one is saying that's his peak, but he's solid enough to feature, given his conceded rate in those 2 seasons.

Buffon was available due to Parma being in financial troubles and selling their best players.

 

[crappycraperson]

Alaba > Marcelo surely?

 

[Skizzo]

I find it odd considering some of the other keepers in the pool only him to be singled out to be fair.

VdS in his first season conceded only 4 times 2 goals in one game and 6 in his second season. Only once in 66 matches he conceded more than 2 goals in the game against Lazio. I don't think he's liability. Sure no one is saying that's his peak, but he's solid enough to feature, given his conceded rate in those 2 seasons.

Buffon was available due to Parma being in financial troubles and selling their best players.

tbf, I don't just think we singled it out against you. We highlighted Lehmann also, and probably something in our first match. Don't think we're just picking on you or jumping on a bandwagon, its just an area where we have enjoyed an advantage through the draft, and in this case again, its a clear area of concern imo.

 

[Skizzo]

Alaba > Marcelo surely?

That's pretty much what I assumed would be the choice when they got Alaba, but i think league restrictions limited them there.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Keepers are always like that. Same as Kahn, after that mistake in the WC final, yet his work up to that time completely undone.

That comparison doesn't work, I'm afraid. Nobody on here is likely to focus on that one incident in an effort to downplay Kahn's overall ability (in any context), and if they did, they'd be pounced on by numerous people.

The media is what what it is, we're all aware of that. It's not the issue and it's not what people actually focus on here. You're selling VDS as basically the same guy who excelled in Holland before the move - only somewhat up-and-down in his second season, and somewhat unfairly targeted by the media. That isn't how most of the people who have commented on this - in this draft, I mean - read the situation. If there's a consensus to be looked at, it's that VDS' stint at Juve was mediocre at best. You may disagree with that assessment, but it would appear that you're in the minority on this, and the fact that you have an (obvious) vested interest in downplaying the majority view doesn't exactly give any credence to your stance.

 

[Enigma_87]

As for Totti. We had considered him but picked Kaka for the reason that we can have flexibility in the system and bed him in.

To me Totti can be excellent in the right formation, but in his best years he was in that famous 4-6-0 Roma formation which is highly demanding in terms of fitting him well in that formation.

Roma lined up like this:

And he was excellent in that role. However partnering Klinsmann and Moller behind him as a #10. I don't think it works to be fair. Especially when he drops behind and clashes with Moller.

 

[Skizzo]

Another noteworthy thing we'd like to point out, as we feel it may be a factor in the defensive set up. If one of the Germans can correct me on this, please do.

Thomas Helmer, for as good as he was defensively, was a left footed center back, that lined up for Bayern on the left side of the center back pairing. What we found from his league play, was setting up similar below. We also found him appearing at left back.

Spoiler

While not the end of the world, small factors like this can make a difference in the balance of the defensive unit. Especially if Gustavo is dropping in at times, and VDS is behind.

While we won't make the argument of Lucio being a buccaneering center back all game, he will be required here to step out of defense to pick up Totti as he roams. In turn, that leaves Helmer to track the runs of Klinsmann, who has an advantage with his pace and movement.

 

[Moby]

Alaba > Marcelo surely?

What I thought. More so when you consider the rest of the defence.

 

[Skizzo]

And he was excellent in that role. However partnering Klinsmann and Moller behind him as a #10. I don't think it works to be fair. Especially when he drops behind and clashes with Moller.

we've highlighted how his movement deep coincides with Moller's ability to run in behind defenders. Look at the video of Moller's movement with Baggio, who drops deep to receive the ball and start the play.

Klinsmann peels off left, Totti drops deep, Moller runs in behind.

Klinsmann runs vertically, Totti moves into the space behind, Moller receives the ball and plays it into feet or over the top.

Klinsmann holds the ball up, Totti runs in behind, Moller moves up to support, Luis Enrique runs into the channel to the left of Klinsmann.

All ridiculously talented players, with intelligence and work rate/movement.

 

[Enigma_87]

That comparison doesn't work, I'm afraid. Nobody on here is likely to focus on that one incident in an effort to downplay Kahn's overall ability (in any context), and if they did, they'd be pounced on by numerous people.

The media is what what it is, we're all aware of that. It's not the issue and it's not what people actually focus on here. You're selling VDS as basically the same guy who excelled in Holland before the move - only somewhat up-and-down in his second season, and somewhat unfairly targeted by the media. That isn't how most of the people who have commented on this - in this draft, I mean - read the situation. If there's a consensus to be looked at, it's that VDS' stint at Juve was mediocre at best. You may disagree with that assessment, but it would appear that you're in the minority on this, and the fact that you have an (obvious) vested interest in downplaying the majority view doesn't exactly give any credence to your stance.

VdS stint was controversial, but Juve fans were looking for a scrapegoat. I'm not selling him to be the best version of him. He was single out due to the credentials and 2 errors he made in 2 games. He pulled some terrific saves yet due to Juve misfiring and finishing 2nd he was singled out. I think he's solid enough to do the job, never claimed he's the best in the draft or something like it. I think the numbers also back it up that he was solid throughout especially given Juve's previous season.

 

[crappycraperson]

What I thought. More so when you consider the rest of the defence.

League restriction did them in.. think I prefer their starting formation to this. ...

 

[Enigma_87]

What I thought. More so when you consider the rest of the defence.

Marcelo is needed to fill the La Liga quota.

 

[Enigma_87]

League restriction did them in.. think I prefer their starting formation to this. ...

Well Davids is in his best role there so he can do what was expected of Alaba as well. I think we won't lose that impact having him in the LCM.

 

[Enigma_87]

we've highlighted how his movement deep coincides with Moller's ability to run in behind defenders. Look at the video of Moller's movement with Baggio, who drops deep to receive the ball and start the play.

Klinsmann peels off left, Totti drops deep, Moller runs in behind.

Klinsmann runs vertically, Totti moves into the space behind, Moller receives the ball and plays it into feet or over the top.

Klinsmann holds the ball up, Totti runs in behind, Moller moves up to support, Luis Enrique runs into the channel to the left of Klinsmann.

All ridiculously talented players, with intelligence and work rate/movement.

In an ideal world and without any opposition that sounds perfect but with Gustavo, Modric, Davids into the equation you won't get that freedom to move into channels.

Also Helmer is one of the best man markers and appreciated by Kicker as well.

As for Klinsmann, have to say I think his later version was better than the German one. Until he moved to Inter he had only handful games in the national side and IMO developed a lot after Inter. Sure he was faster, but after that was the better player IMO.

Enrique in that role will have a lot to do defensively, otherwise you are relying too much on Baraja/Hierro. Especially Hierro who will have his hands full with Kaka. I don't think in that system you will have much use of Enrique to be fair..

 

[Skizzo]

In an ideal world and without any opposition that sounds perfect but with Gustavo, Modric, Davids into the equation you won't get that freedom to move into channels.

Also Helmer is one of the best man markers and appreciated by Kicker as well.

As for Klinsmann, have to say I think his later version was better than the German one. Until he moved to Inter he had only handful games in the national side and IMO developed a lot after Inter. Sure he was faster, but after that was the better player IMO.

Enrique in that role will have a lot to do defensively, otherwise you are relying too much on Baraja/Hierro. Especially Hierro who will have his hands full with Kaka. I don't think in that system you will have much use of Enrique to be fair..

Who is planning on picking up who? You have Davids and Modric picking up Luis Enrique and Baraja I assume? Since that's the midfield battle you referred to earlier. Gustavo picks up Moller, and then what?

Is Helmer man marking Klinsmann then? You keep referring to how good he is at man marking, which would be irrelevant if you aren't planning on putting that to use.

So does that leave Lucio stepping out to pick up Totti? On the same side as Marcelo who is known to leave a few gaps at the back? That can't end well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Who is planning on picking up who? You have Davids and Modric picking up Luis Enrique and Baraja I assume? Since that's the midfield battle you referred to earlier. Gustavo picks up Moller, and then what?

Is Helmer man marking Klinsmann then? You keep referring to how good he is at man marking, which would be irrelevant if you aren't planning on putting that to use.

So does that leave Lucio stepping out to pick up Totti? On the same side as Marcelo who is known to leave a few gaps at the back? That can't end well.

Off the ball you have Davids and Modric up against Luis Enrique and Baraja. Hierro will have to watch out for Kaka, otherwise you are vulnerable on the break. Gustavo indeed will be watching out for Moller and our CB pair will be covering your CB pair in the zone with our full backs in the mix. Who will Marcelo leave a gap on for?


I like Modric/Davids against your pair in midfield and Cafu/Marcelo to provide more in the attacking third compared to Lizarazu/Zanetti, I think that goes without saying.

Both our CB pair are zonal, my comment towards Helmer is that in positional game and cluttered center he has enough quality to look for Klinsmann and not let him slip as he is excellent in the air and positionaly.

At the same time if we reverse it you have Hierro on Kaka, and Villa/Sheva on Chiellini/Ruggeri. I think Chiellini is a bit of a weakness there and he'll be exposed.

 

[Fergus' son]

Forgot to vote in the other SF so getting my vote in early in this one - really like the look of Villa, Shev and Kaka!

 

[Skizzo]

Off the ball you have Davids and Modric up against Luis Enrique and Baraja. Hierro will have to watch out for Kaka, otherwise you are vulnerable on the break. Gustavo indeed will be watching out for Moller and our CB pair will be covering your CB pair in the zone with our full backs in the mix. Who will Marcelo leave a gap on for?


I like Modric/Davids against your pair in midfield and Cafu/Marcelo to provide more in the attacking third compared to Lizarazu/Zanetti, I think that goes without saying.

Both our CB pair are zonal, my comment towards Helmer is that in positional game and cluttered center he has enough quality to look for Klinsmann and not let him slip as he is excellent in the air and positionaly.

At the same time if we reverse it you have Hierro on Kaka, and Villa/Sheva on Chiellini/Ruggeri. I think Chiellini is a bit of a weakness there and he'll be exposed.

We also have two full backs who offer far more defensively than your pair.

Defensively we're better set to handle that, as opposed to having "less than defensively sound" Marcelo, gung ho Lucio ( ) and left footed Helmer on the right. All in front of VDS of Juve fame.

While some of that above is obviously said tongue in cheek...the underlying point is that there's too many possible areas for that chain to fall apart. As opposed to on the opposite said saying something like "I think Chiellini is a bit of a weakness"

 

[Moby]

gung ho Lucio ( )

Damn straight.

 

[Enigma_87]

We also have two full backs who offer far more defensively than your pair.

Defensively we're better set to handle that, as opposed to having "less than defensively sound" Marcelo, gung ho Lucio ( ) and left footed Helmer on the right. All in front of VDS of Juve fame.

While some of that above is obviously said tongue in cheek...the underlying point is that there's too many possible areas for that chain to fall apart. As opposed to on the opposite said saying something like "I think Chiellini is a bit of a weakness"

Well to be fair I don't really rate Chiellini all that high, regardless of our game.

I can understand some of the concerns, but that's why we drafted a side that is hard working and able to switch between defense and attack. Even Villa and Sheva can press your CB's and be the first line of our defense.

Ruggeri and Chiellini are also not the best ball playing defenders so IMO you will struggle a hit moving the ball from the back and having in mind our midfield I can see Totti and KLinsmann being isolated up front. We can suffocate your midfield to cut the service to them and I'm not sure how well will Baraja and Enrique be able to move forward given how Davids and Modric can exploit the space.

I really don't like Totti in that role as well. Having a 10 and 9 alongside him s Emma like a huge waste and not in a zone he's comfortable in.

 

[Enigma_87]

To further underline on Totti point. How is he able to excel here. He doesn't have the wide support there's another 10 in Moller so he'll be running into him when dropping back, and the same time not having that much time on the ball in congested space

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think he's solid enough to do the job, never claimed he's the best in the draft or something like it.

Fair enough. You've gotten away with it so far, one could say, and perhaps you'll keep getting away with it. The real question is whether he's a weak point or not - or, in other words, a legitimate flaw to target in your team as such. The further into the knockout stage we get, the more pressing the question becomes - that's the nature of the thing.

But enough about him, we're just going around in circles here, I think.

For what it's worth I don't think it's reasonable to focus on him as a crucial flaw, that goes against what has - yet again - been the standard when it comes to judging keepers and their importance in this draft. But I do think he's a legitimate weak point, if you will, when you're looking for chinks in the old armour - which is what you have to do at this stage.

 

[Skizzo]

To further underline on Totti point. How is he able to excel here. He doesn't have the wide support there's another 10 in Moller so he'll be running into him when dropping back, and the same time not having that much time on the ball in congested space

That hardly underlines any point.

Klinsmann often drifted wide, As would Moller. As would Enrique. Zanetti and Lizarazu are suddenly completely ignored in attack as well?
There's more than enough movement around Totti for him here. Especially as Lucio is stepping out to pick him up.

What line ups has Villa played in with a number 9 and an AM like Kaka by the way? Serious question, as I always remember him up top or out wide.

 

[Skizzo]

An idea of the movement of the front three.

(obviously in an ideal world without defenders on the pitch )

But the question, for me, remains who tracks the movement and interchange between Moller and Totti. You can pose the argument about does it get them at their best, and we can discuss that...but with Totti's position, either Lucio steps out of defense, or Totti remains in space. If Lucio steps out, it opens that space in behind him for Moller to run into from deep, or Klinsmann to explode into.

With my question posed, this is where I see the opportunity.

The last sequence is the biggest question mark...as to whether Gustavo follows Moller to the right of the field, or tries to pick up the run of Totti across Lucio into the space vacated by Klinsmann's run.

 

[Enigma_87]

That hardly underlines any point.

Klinsmann often drifted wide, As would Moller. As would Enrique. Zanetti and Lizarazu are suddenly completely ignored in attack as well?
There's more than enough movement around Totti for him here. Especially as Lucio is stepping out to pick him up.

What line ups has Villa played in with a number 9 and an AM like Kaka by the way? Serious question, as I always remember him up top or out wide.

If klinsmann drifts wide he'll be picked up by some of our fullbacks as well. You will need Enrique in the middle otherwise you're quite vulnerable on counter. Baraja is also not one of the fastest midfielders around to cover that ground.

To be fair I've never seen Totti in a formation like this and with a classic 10 and 9 next to him. He'd be the best in 4-3-3 and Klinsmann is best in the box. Moving him wide or running in channels is taking away his best asset.

Then again Moller and Totti I can see overlapping quite often. If you rely on Enrique from midfield to create width and given in mind Kaka's pace you are asking for trouble.

I'm happy to hear a neutral how they see Moller/Klinsmann and Totti working together and also Enrique in CM. I can't see the balance there and too many players are sacrified to fit them all in.

 

[Gio]

Re the Totti debate. It's perhaps not optimal, but in fairness Italy's 3-5-2 in Euro 2000 had Totti in front of Fiore, who himself was a reasonably attacking central midfielder. And Totti did well in that tournament.

 

[Enigma_87]

An idea of the movement of the front three.

(obviously in an ideal world without defenders on the pitch )

I'm not sure I understand it well in terms of graphics but you have depicted Totti dropping right. From what I've seen of him of Roma he's not the one to provide you with width. More naturally he'll drop in the middle where it's Moller. If Klinsmann drops to the right he'll be picked by Cafu.

But the question, for me, remains who tracks the movement and interchange between Moller and Totti. You can pose the argument about does it get them at their best, and we can discuss that...but with Totti's position, either Lucio steps out of defense, or Totti remains in space. If Lucio steps out, it opens that space in behind him for Moller to run into from deep, or Klinsmann to explode into.

With my question posed, this is where I see the opportunity.

The last sequence is the biggest question mark...as to whether Gustavo follows Moller to the right of the field, or tries to pick up the run of Totti across Lucio into the space vacated by Klinsmann's run.

that's really up to the zonal marking we have at the back. Naturally Gustavo will drop back to follow Moller.
Now from that second chart you can see the gap between your front three and Baraja/Enrique. You rely on Enrique and your fullbacks to bomb forward, but will you want them that far into our half? Marcelo and Cafu will most likely be able to regain their position much better and I think you can agree that Cafu is the best in that sense.

Enrique and Baraja won't have time on the ball, they are up against Davids and Modric, I don't think you'll get the service you expect to your front three.

Marcelo has been mentioned defensively but he isn't against a traditional winger in this game to create 2 on 1 advantage. Defensive wise he'd be up against Zanetti, I don't see Baraja providing width on the right and besides you'll need him in the center. I don't think he's vulnerable at all defensively in this game.

On the other hand going forward is any of the full backs on the pitch better than him?