The Three Leagues Draft - 2nd SF
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I think Fiore was much more flexible in that role as he was also a winger and played in central midfield too. Moller is much closer to a classic #10.
Also in that sense you have Enrique who naturally will go forward but he's here on the left, while traditionally played on the right. He filled in but LCM is the least often position I'd see him at.
I think as a whole the whole front three and Enrique doesn't click for me, you have IMO a lot of zones that would overlap. I'm not sure how you see the whole frontline and midfield working.
Also will the Skizzo/Pat midfield pair do the job against Modric/Davids? I think a lot of creativity and service to the front three will be cut out by our midfield.
I would have made an animated picture with Neymar who dribbles 20 players 
An idea of the movement of the front three.
(obviously in an ideal world without defenders on the pitch)
But the question, for me, remains who tracks the movement and interchange between Moller and Totti. You can pose the argument about does it get them at their best, and we can discuss that...but with Totti's position, either Lucio steps out of defense, or Totti remains in space. If Lucio steps out, it opens that space in behind him for Moller to run into from deep, or Klinsmann to explode into.
With my question posed, this is where I see the opportunity.
The last sequence is the biggest question mark...as to whether Gustavo follows Moller to the right of the field, or tries to pick up the run of Totti across Lucio into the space vacated by Klinsmann's run.
gifs and now this....you have your missus, leave something for us peasants ffsCheers. @Šjor Bepo has raised the stakes again in that regard
@Skizzo
Who do you have on the bench?
Am I the only one who thinks Villa, Shevchenko and Kaka is less than optimal? It really needs a playmaking 10 in there which Kaka really isn't.
Who do you have on the bench?
Am I the only one who thinks Villa, Shevchenko and Kaka is less than optimal? It really needs a playmaking 10 in there which Kaka really isn't.
i gotta say, I admire the way you can question almost everything about another team, but remain baffled by the attention your keeper gets.
Look at the post on Totti from earlier. It shows him dropping deep in the rightish side of the field, turning, and running at the defence.
Look at any of our posts on Moller. We've shown his runs beyond the strikers, and drifting wide.
Talking of zones overlapping, you have Modric who is best as a creative player, but you will be channeling most of your offense through Kaka. Plus he's never played with an AM like Kaka has he?
Your arguments of my midfield not having time on the ball are odd, as that cuts both ways. You argue that my midfield can't attack or they risk being out of position. Surely your full backs are given the same consideration?
Now I know why @Aldo had those questions about your instructions, because you've somehow got the midfield dominated, defence locked down, and my players are all confused about what to do. Even though it was your team prepared for the wrong set up and made a sub 10 minutes into the match.
Pogba, Mannini, and Basler.
And no, you're not. That's why I've hinted at it in a few replies already
ok GazzaFiore never convinced out wide and was always a classic no8 for me.
On VdS I think I dedicated a lot of posts on him in every game from round 1, this one included.
Moller at his peak was used as #10 in Dortmund behind Chapuisat and Riedle. I don't think it's something to be underestimated. Totti as well played as the main man or trequartista at Roma.
I didn't expect you will field them both as to me both won't work in the same team because their roles will overlap, at least that is where they played in their peak which is the draft about. That's why I made the quick change as well. As I mentioned Davids would've made more sense in that position to counter Totti, who is your best player and expected to field Basler.
I've not get the VDS, Marcelo or Lucio discussions so far without commenting on each one so I don't think I've not addressed each one of them.
Let's see some of Milan's formations with Kaka in it:
Pirlo at the base, here we have Gustavo. Then you have Seedorf and Gattuso in the same way we have Modric and Davids only on the opposite sides. We have Davids as our engine in the same mold as Gattuso but obviously better, and Modric as deeper playmaker in the same mold as Seedorf. Cafu is playing his regular role, Sheva as well and Vila instead of Crespo.
I don't see that much difference in the roles we have here.
I'll let Enigma and Skizzo keep slugging it out after this, but I had to answer this one:
Its just demonstrably untrue to say Luis Enrique was better on the right. Firstly, Transfermarkt was only founded in 2000 and I doubt it was the juggernaut of a site then that it later developed into. Their positional info doesn't cover anywhere close to his full career and it isn't particularly reliable as a source of positional information for older players in general. Secondly, he hit a new level of performance after he joined Barcelona, where he initially played from the left (Figo was on the right wing) and then moved centrally. As our dear departed friend Pippa explained:
You really think so? Come on.
In 1996-97 he was regarded as the best left midfielder in La Liga and one of the best overall. Mundo Deportivo 1997
Hell, even before the 1996-97 season he was expected to play left midfield at Barcelona. MD, June 1996
In 1997-98 he was playing much more centrally. Media attributed his surge in goals because LVG was playing him in the middle more. "Louis van Gaal también está sacando el máximo rendimiento de él. El técnico holandés lo ha hecho alinearse como medio centro [central midfielder], como interior [interior midfielder], como mediapunta [attacking midfielder], como extremo [winger] y como delantero centro [centre forward]." MD, January 1998
And just to add on to the claim that he played more centrally in 1997-98 ... MD, August 1997 There's a certain quote from Enrique that adds on to it. "Ésta es una posición diferente a las que estaba acostumbrado porque no es en banda y porque es de enlace entre la defense y la delatera. Sólo me queda jugar de central." The headline is the charm.
He rarely, if ever played on the right during his best period at Barcelona. That was Figo's position and he didn't miss many matches. Figo played 88% of league matches from 1996-97 to 1999-00. Enrique played only 73% of league matches in that same time span. Sure, Enrique had one-offs like against Depor in 1998 but those are rarities.
Real Madrid's usual formation. You can see Modric on that RCM position in again what resembles much of a diamond with Benzema also dropping back, which he does to leave space for Ronaldo.
We have Marcelo as well in his usual role here.
All in all our formation and players are combination of Milan and Real sides (6 of the players in it) and IMO they are playing in their natural positions in that combination.
For Luis Enrique as I've mentioned that data is incomplete, it's more of an excerpt and also was directed at him playing in CM. I think you can agree that he was better as a wide player when he's deployed in midfield, not the role you have him here.
I've tried to implement Schneider in the same role in our game vs Aldo but that didn't go all too well
Sure, he'll work in that role, but having in mind he'll be preoccupied with defensive work I'm not sure if you are not wasting him there. And he's up against pretty formidable midfield here I think so he'll have a lot to cover.
@Enigma_87
Well as your formation shows Villa is playing in the Sheva role and Sheva in the Crespo role.
Also in both the formations above Kaka had two creative players behind him, Seedorf and Pirlo. In your case it's only Modric who is and he has more defensive responsibility than he's used to. Also playing RCM in a diamond is rather different than in a 433
Well as your formation shows Villa is playing in the Sheva role and Sheva in the Crespo role.
Also in both the formations above Kaka had two creative players behind him, Seedorf and Pirlo. In your case it's only Modric who is and he has more defensive responsibility than he's used to. Also playing RCM in a diamond is rather different than in a 433
Showing those two formations just highlights how you don't have the same set up for either player...
In the 433, Modric has the space ahead to move into since theres no one there. Here you have Kaka dominating that area of the field for your team.
In the Milan team, you lack the two players behind Kaka in style, and don't have the two similar strikers ahead.
edit: physio beat me to it.
In the 433, Modric has the space ahead to move into since theres no one there. Here you have Kaka dominating that area of the field for your team.
In the Milan team, you lack the two players behind Kaka in style, and don't have the two similar strikers ahead.
edit: physio beat me to it.
And as an example of how Modric will fit in.
which I found interesting from Cruyff thread and to much I see it as well.
When you have a diamond it's based on triangles. It's a nice point to which he explained about RvN and keeping him in the box because that's his bread and butter.
That system is based on pass and move. Now we have Modric here, Davids, Kaka as a triangle. Both excellent on the ball, highly agile and mobile, can the communicate and work well? I think so. Cafu, Marcelo are also excellent on the ball and can form another triangle when with the ball - Sheva/Kaka/Cafu - something we have already seen. Villa/Kaka/Marcelo - all good in the ball and excellent technically and passing wise as well as under pressure. I think that would work as well. Same goes for Modric/Cafu/Sheva(when Sheva is running into channel like the formation above) and Davids/Marcelo/Villa.
which I found interesting from Cruyff thread and to much I see it as well.
When you have a diamond it's based on triangles. It's a nice point to which he explained about RvN and keeping him in the box because that's his bread and butter.
That system is based on pass and move. Now we have Modric here, Davids, Kaka as a triangle. Both excellent on the ball, highly agile and mobile, can the communicate and work well? I think so. Cafu, Marcelo are also excellent on the ball and can form another triangle when with the ball - Sheva/Kaka/Cafu - something we have already seen. Villa/Kaka/Marcelo - all good in the ball and excellent technically and passing wise as well as under pressure. I think that would work as well. Same goes for Modric/Cafu/Sheva(when Sheva is running into channel like the formation above) and Davids/Marcelo/Villa.
This isn't exactly clear speech for my money. Firstly, you have Gustavo at the base – as you say – whereas the formation you cite has Pirlo. The only thing similar about that, given what we're talking about, is that both formations have a player at the base.
Secondly, you compare Modric – as a deep lying playmaker of sorts – to Seedorf, who is nowhere near that description. Pirlo is the playmaker in that formation – and it's that role of his you don't have a replicate for. At best you can claim that Modric is capable of doing some deep string pulling, but you seemingly don't intend for him to function as a designated playmaker (but rather as something like a Seedorf – which is confusing at best).
The criticism pertaining to Kaka (see above) is that you lack a proper playmaker – unlike that Milan side you refer to, who did have that, in the shape of Pirlo.
In the first one we have Ambrosini - I think his role is quite the same as Gustavo one. Modric and Davids are both creative players in the same mold as Seedorf/Pirlo are. Davids offers the engine like Seedorf while Modric the playmaker role Pirlo has. Obviously different players, but if we look at their playing style are they any different to what we see here?
In Real 4-3-3 you have Benzema often dropping back to free space for Ronaldo and Bale. I don't think Modric goes that further on the pitch to clash with Kaka. Modric has the same space as he has in Real. Carvajal and Marcelo(who is in the same role) are attacking full backs that provide width. We have Marcelo playing as himself and Cafu on the other side in Carvajal role. Apart from being a huge upgrade how are they so different?
No, mate I think you mixed them up.
We have Seedorf/Davids and Pirlo/Modric with Ambrosini/Gustavo holding. Kaka in #10 and 2 forwards up front. I'd say that's pretty much a carbon copy of that formation.
You have Modric to take Pirlo's role and Davids is the engine on the left side who is also excellent technically in Seedorf mold.
The second one you have Pirlo at the base, but that's more due to having more space there given how Liverpool are set up, the players are the same but this time you have Gattuso(or in our case Luiz Gustavo) in CM providing the running(similarly to what I've wanted to use Alaba for) and Seedorf on the right.
We can achieve the same here having Modric as DLP with Gustavo/Davids in front of him, but having in mind S/P set up I think having Gustavo holding is the much better choice in this particular game.
I don't think we need another playmaker here in the place of Gustavo, we'll have 3 then. A pivot is much more needed in this formation and generally shielding the defence.
a better depiction. Obviously you can have Cafu/Maldini in that Milan formations.
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Seedorf and Davids are greatly different players. The former is a creative 8 with a good engine whereas the latter is a brilliant, technically accomplished box-to-box dynamo. There skill sets and style of play are significantly different.
Sure, but let's see their respective roles here. I think given their playing styles Modric can fill in Pirlo's playmaking shoes. It's what he does for Real anyway. Sure he's different player but if we look at his qualities, can he fill in that role?
Same goes for Davids. Great engine and physical prowess. Technically he's excellent, he can combine pretty well with Modric and Kaka, I can't see a reason why he can't fill in the role. Sure he's different in sense to Seedorf, but compensates in other departments and is all rounder with excellent tactical sense. Same goes for Modric.
I'm sure both are good enough tactically and possess the skilset to fill in that role.
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Well, it was the part from your post where you said he was better on the right side that was most clearly incorrect. Also the second post from Pippa, which seems particularly well-researched, points out that he played a variety of roles in his prolific second season both centrally and wide. Some clips from his 1997-98 season.For Luis Enrique as I've mentioned that data is incomplete, it's more of an excerpt and also was directed at him playing in CM. I think you can agree that he was better as a wide player when he's deployed in midfield, not the role you have him here.
I've tried to implement Schneider in the same role in our game vs Aldo but that didn't go all too well
Sure, he'll work in that role, but having in mind he'll be preoccupied with defensive work I'm not sure if you are not wasting him there. And he's up against pretty formidable midfield here I think so he'll have a lot to cover.
Great diagonal run and finish from an LCM position:
Nice cross from the left channel for Sonny Anderson:
Great long range effort from LCM:
All from positions he could feasibly expect to occupy from the LCM role we've given him. His running from midfield will provide a great outlet for Totti and its something Modric will struggle to contain.
That heat map just undermines your argument. I have no problem accepting that Modric is an outstanding passer, but he's clearly occupying a completely different zone to the deep midfield positions Pirlo took up for Milan.Sure, but let's see their respective roles here. I think given their playing styles Modric can fill in Pirlo's playmaking shoes. It's what he does for Real anyway. Sure he's different player but if we look at his qualities, can he fill in that role?
@Pat_Mustard, he was quite versatile alright so as I said in the opening post regarding him he can fill in many positions. In all those examples I think he played in more advanced position from the start. As you mentioned even with Figo on the right and him on the left he was more of a winger than LCM in the way you are depicting him here.
I'm fairly sure the game that you are using as example is the 4-0 one and it was Cocu/Guardiola in the middle with Enrique as left winger?
The Modric heat map btw was also in respond to coming into Kaka's space which when played as RCM clearly he doesn't hence I don't think their roles will clash at all.
I'm fairly sure the game that you are using as example is the 4-0 one and it was Cocu/Guardiola in the middle with Enrique as left winger?
So how is that heat map different to his position in the above formation? As already mentioned Pirlo in DLP has the space to distribute the ball, but if we put a #10 in the same mold you have here it's natural to have Gustavo there. Also Pirlo played in that position at Milan as well, with Ambrosini holding.
The Modric heat map btw was also in respond to coming into Kaka's space which when played as RCM clearly he doesn't hence I don't think their roles will clash at all.
@Pat_Mustard you have few more over here - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-...s-sjor-bepo-anant.415872/page-2#post-18967104
- https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-...s-sjor-bepo-anant.415872/page-2#post-18967104@Pat_Mustard you have few more over here
Cheers mate, we may well have to shamelessly steal your hard work soon!you stole my two upgrades so you can steal this as well
you stole my two upgrades so you can steal this as well
You mean this one?
The other was illustration if we have Gustavo in LCM like the last match and the possibility to move Modric there, but I already mentioned that in this case due to playing against another diamond the best way is to do what we have did and use Modric/Pirlo in the above comparison with Ambrosini holding.
It was in relevance to some of the concerns issued of the players roles and if we have the players to fulfill those roles.
Of course Modric and Davids didn't play for Milan, but if we see what their abilities are, and especially tactical awareness and discipline I don't see an issue playing them in that role, which was the main case in point.
Going to bed as tomorrow is kinda big day. I'll leave you off and address all points that come up in the morning. Night all and good luck. As always no grudges held
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Alright, but in fairness your presentation above did very little to prevent that from happening.
You posted two different formation pics: What was the purpose of the one with Pirlo at the base?
I'll grant you that the one with Ambrosini at the base somewhat resembles your formation, but it's hardly a carbon copy. You still don't have a player who can offer what Pirlo does in terms of being the main playmaker - and as pointed out above, Davids isn't a perfect match for the Seedorf role either. A direct comparison between your team and the Milan formation (the relevant one) isn't favourable: The criticism (right or wrong) is that you lack some creativity and that Kaka ends up with too much playmaking responsibility: Well, compared to the Milan formation, it's like this in terms of creativity/playmaking ability:
Seedorf > Davids
Pirlo > Modric
In short, I don't see why you'd want to go down that road in the first place. If you actually aim to emulate that team in terms of - say - balance, you're bound to face plenty of criticism, as it really isn't a carbon copy by any stretch.
Ah, just to respond on this one.
The one with Pirlo at the base and Gattuso in CM was in relevance to a formation that we can go with if we put Alaba/Gustavo there, but Milan rarely played against diamond formation so having Pirlo at the base made more sense in terms of having more time on the ball. It was just an example and reasoning why I've chosed to put Luis Gustavo at the base. The one with Ambrosini is the one we're replicating. Of course it's hard to find the exact copy of Pirlo and Seedorf(far from it very unique players), so it's more than the roles/zones they were in that formation. Sure I'd always face some concern when we're comparing players, but I'm purely going after the player qualities combined with their tactical sense if they can play in that role and be successful at it. Sure, we lose some creativity but gain better engine from both.
In terms of engine and covering:
Davids > Seedorf
Modric > Pirlo
in essence we lose some creativity, but gain in other areas, which IMO is more important. We could've gone for Seedorf in that role, but as already said Davids is best there with his attributes. And with S/P picking Totti have to mull over the formation, hence starting him there, with Moller as #10 tho Davids will be better utilized in that LCM position.
Probably carbon copy was bit of a stretch, yes, but in terms of creativity to be fair I don't think we will lose that much, both Modric and Davids are excellent technically and with their movement, so it made much more sense to have a box to box next to Modric rather than another(third) playmaker on the field.
No, this one:You mean this one?
The other was illustration if we have Gustavo in LCM like the last match and the possibility to move Modric there, but I already mentioned that in this case due to playing against another diamond the best way is to do what we have did and use Modric/Pirlo in the above comparison with Ambrosini holding.
It was in relevance to some of the concerns issued of the players roles and if we have the players to fulfill those roles.
Of course Modric and Davids didn't play for Milan, but if we see what their abilities are, and especially tactical awareness and discipline I don't see an issue playing them in that role, which was the main case in point.
Going to bed as tomorrow is kinda big day. I'll leave you off and address all points that come up in the morning. Night all and good luck. As always no grudges held
No grudges mate
Okay, another one for you, this time from the Super Cup vs Borussia Dortmund in January 1998.
He plays in a 3 man midfield with De La Pena and Celades, with Rivaldo, Soony Anderson and Figo as the attacking trio ahead of them.
and scores another cracking goal from the edge of the penalty area.
To the extent that he's got a challenging defensive duty in picking up Modric you've got a point, but the nitpicking about his position is baseless, especially when you've erroneously stated that he was better from the right wing than the left.
In regards to this midfield battle, I'm not sure why Enigma keeps talking as if they won't be involved in the offense at all. A few times he's commented that Luis Enrique can't push up or else he leaves Modric alone, and things to that effect. Having runners from midfield is exactly what a game like this would need to help determine the outcome.
If Enrique pushes forward, then it manes Modric has to track back also, not that he'd just be left alone. Same with Baraja and Davids. There will be space to attack on the counter, especially as Cafu and Marcelo have been instructed to attack. Pat has shown the ability of Enrique to make runs from deep and wide, and we've done the same with Baraja previously. Having midfielders who can also contribute to the scoring side, as opposed to just the playmaking side is crucial.
Both teams have a pair of midfielders who will run all day. Who are skilled on the ball. Who will hound the opposition and give it all for their team. What our midfield offers in addition is goals. As mentioned in the OP, Modric and Davids scoring a combined 15 goals in 269 games. Baraja has 41 for Valencia on his own. That's not factoring in Luis Enrique, as his goal tally includes playing in more advanced positions, but he obviously knows how to score as well.
Having that extra goal threat from midfield keeps our threat diverse enough to not be stifled entirely.
That still being on top of not having had an answer on how to handle Totti and Moller positioning and interchanging.
If Enrique pushes forward, then it manes Modric has to track back also, not that he'd just be left alone. Same with Baraja and Davids. There will be space to attack on the counter, especially as Cafu and Marcelo have been instructed to attack. Pat has shown the ability of Enrique to make runs from deep and wide, and we've done the same with Baraja previously. Having midfielders who can also contribute to the scoring side, as opposed to just the playmaking side is crucial.
Both teams have a pair of midfielders who will run all day. Who are skilled on the ball. Who will hound the opposition and give it all for their team. What our midfield offers in addition is goals. As mentioned in the OP, Modric and Davids scoring a combined 15 goals in 269 games. Baraja has 41 for Valencia on his own. That's not factoring in Luis Enrique, as his goal tally includes playing in more advanced positions, but he obviously knows how to score as well.
Having that extra goal threat from midfield keeps our threat diverse enough to not be stifled entirely.
That still being on top of not having had an answer on how to handle Totti and Moller positioning and interchanging.
And looking, again, at Totti's positioning throughout a match not being reliant on his starting position. Just because theres Moller who will be another playmaker/goalscorer on the field, doesn't mean they'll step on each others toes.
Here's Totti playing deep and occupying space on the right at times.
Or dropping deep to pick up the ball and run at the defense
Or dropping behind the forward line, with two runners moving ahead (Klinsmann and Moller?)
Or Totti pushing up against the defense, and flicking it along to the runner (Moller) from deep
Totti dropping to receive the ball and flick it over to a player who had made a run wide (Klinsmann)
Or again, pushing up against the defense and finding the runner far post (Klinsmann)
Here's Totti playing deep and occupying space on the right at times.
Or dropping deep to pick up the ball and run at the defense
Or dropping behind the forward line, with two runners moving ahead (Klinsmann and Moller?)
Or Totti pushing up against the defense, and flicking it along to the runner (Moller) from deep
Totti dropping to receive the ball and flick it over to a player who had made a run wide (Klinsmann)
Or again, pushing up against the defense and finding the runner far post (Klinsmann)
wtfAn idea of the movement of the front three.
(obviously in an ideal world without defenders on the pitch
But the question, for me, remains who tracks the movement and interchange between Moller and Totti. You can pose the argument about does it get them at their best, and we can discuss that...but with Totti's position, either Lucio steps out of defense, or Totti remains in space. If Lucio steps out, it opens that space in behind him for Moller to run into from deep, or Klinsmann to explode into.
With my question posed, this is where I see the opportunity.
The last sequence is the biggest question mark...as to whether Gustavo follows Moller to the right of the field, or tries to pick up the run of Totti across Lucio into the space vacated by Klinsmann's run.
You are basically underlining my point with those gifs, you can see the zone and space Totti occupies in those gifs and he has the wide support something he doesn't have as Klinsmann is central in your set up and you only have full backs as wide option.And looking, again, at Totti's positioning throughout a match not being reliant on his starting position. Just because theres Moller who will be another playmaker/goalscorer on the field, doesn't mean they'll step on each others toes.
Here's Totti playing deep and occupying space on the right at times.
Or dropping deep to pick up the ball and run at the defense
Or dropping behind the forward line, with two runners moving ahead (Klinsmann and Moller?)
Or Totti pushing up against the defense, and flicking it along to the runner (Moller) from deep
Totti dropping to receive the ball and flick it over to a player who had made a run wide (Klinsmann)
Or again, pushing up against the defense and finding the runner far post (Klinsmann)
Well right footed, started predominantly on the right from what I remember, was shifted on the left due to Figo, at least those are my memories of him. If you put him in the LCM position you are sacrificing his attacking talent IMO a lot since he has much to do in midfield being up against Modric/Davids. Can't have it both ways. Also that's a good example of a game but, I don't think he started that regularly in that LCM position you are playing him here jut filled in.Okay, another one for you, this time from the Super Cup vs Borussia Dortmund in January 1998.
He plays in a 3 man midfield with De La Pena and Celades, with Rivaldo, Soony Anderson and Figo as the attacking trio ahead of them.
and scores another cracking goal from the edge of the penalty area.
To the extent that he's got a challenging defensive duty in picking up Modric you've got a point, but the nitpicking about his position is baseless, especially when you've erroneously stated that he was better from the right wing than the left.
That 'shift to the left due to Figo' also coincided with him scoring 17 goals in 35 league games in his first season at Barca having failed to score more than 4 league goals in a season from the right wing for Real Madrid. He played centrally more regularly during 1997-98. Here's another example, this time in one of Barca's biggest games of the season against Real Madrid. Again he plays in a 3 man midfield behind an attacking trio of Stoichkov, Rivaldo and Figo, and he scores a fantastic goal from an LCM position, from the 5:05 mark in this video:
I'm not disputing that he's got a serious defensive assignment in Modric, although that's made somewhat easier due to you tasking Modric with carrying out Pirlo-esque deep playmaking duties, reducing the ground Enrique has to cover. He's quite clearly still a serious goal threat from midfield though, and we've provided plenty of evidence of that.