The Americas Draft, QF2: Enigma/Joga vs EAP/Sjor

[Chesterlestreet]

NOTE: Voters are encouraged to read the managers' write-ups and arguments before voting. Votes cannot be changed once submitted.

TEAM ENIGMA/JOGA

Tactics and formation:
4-2-3-1 - rather modern incarnation - 4 man backline - Zito DM, Veron deep playmaker, Zizinho attacking midfielder, Erico as our complete striker and Garrincha/Sosa as wide forwards.
- Normal defensive line
- Fast tempo, direct passing
- Zanetti/Branco in balanced roles - Branco slightly more attacking, Zanetti providing more defensive cover for Garrincha to do his thing.

Team Profiles:

GK: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz - one of the best keepers in the draft. Most would rank him somewhere in between Carizzo and Fillol for the top 3 spots in his position. At club level he won it all - Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, 3 times Uruguayan Championship and 1 time Brazilian Championship, he also is the best GK in Uruguay history winning the 1970 FIFA world cup award as a best keeper of the tournament and 1 Copa America to his name, whilst still holding the clean sheet record in the Uruguayan league. Great at organizing the defence, top reflexes and huge leap he was one of the most all rounded keepers of all time.

DL: Branco - Pretty much has the characteristics of every top Brazil full back over the years - fast, can carry the ball well, excellent technique and cross in the box and a great left peg that is always dangerous on set pieces. He's also solid defensively and vividly known for his job on one of the trickiest and fastest forwards - Overmars in the 94 WC quarter finals - where he marked him off the game, all whilst scoring a stunning FK winner on the other end of the pitch. He was first choice left back for brazil in the late 80's, early 90's gaining 72 caps and winning 1 Copa America and the 94 WC.

DR: Javier Zanetti - along with Djalma Santos, Cafu and Carlos Alberto - he's one of the best in the history of his position. Industrious, great technique and rock solid defensively especially in his later years. He's the perfect foil for Garrincha and gives him the ideal tactical platform and freedom in this game.

DC: Diego Godin - The standout defender of the last 5-6 years, he's the bedrock of Atletico's rearguard and had a significant part in breaking the Barca/Real duopoly in recent years, winning the La Liga after a great match against one of the most renowned sides in history. 2 CL finals on top of that coming against a wide range of class attackers such as Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez who rank pretty high in history themselves. On top of his accomplishments Godin is a top notch defensive leader, equally adept in the air and on the deck.

DC: Atilio Ancheta - The Uruguayan centre-back is famed for his feats in the 1970 WC, where he was the best defender of the miserly Uruguayan 1970 side which didn't concede a single goal, till the tightly fought semi-finals against one of the greatest sides ever in Brazil. Labelled as "one of the world's best defenders" by the FIFA WC technical study, he made the Team of the Tournament alongside Carlos Alberto, Facchetti and Beckenbauer; that WC had it's fair share of great defenders with the likes of Schnellinger, Moore, Chumpitaz, Shesternyov, Schulz, Vogts and Burgnich failing to make the cut. The athletic, dependable and agile defender who was also good in the air won 3 Uruguayan championships, 1 Copa Libertadores and a Bola de Ouro in a star studded Brazilian league. He has good understanding with Mazurkiewicz - playing in the national team in that very 1970 side.

DM: Zito - one of the most accomplished players in the game. Winner of 2 WC titles, close to 20 titles in Brazil with Santos, 2 Copa Libertadores and 2 International cups, he is part of those 2 Brazil teams in 1958 and 1962(with Garrincha the other member of out team). Zito was one man engine in that team, playing alongside Didi, setting the stage for him and mopping around having the lion's share of the defensive work in that midfield. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up. Man for the occasion as well - scored one of his three goals in the 1962 final against Czechoslovakia.

MC(Playmaker): Juan Sebastian Veron - Didn't work for him in England (although we saw his genius in the CL), but in Italy he was a beast. One of the best passers(long and short) in the game since the 90's. He wasn't afraid to get stuck and and had a great shot on him as well. His vision and playmaking skills would come in handy as he'll be our main orchestra in the middle of the park.

LWF: Ruben Sosa - Complete attacker that could play anywhere up front he was the star of the Copa America 1989 (Player of the Tournament) where he played on the left in a really exciting Uruguayan team with Francescoli and Paz. Best remembered for his solo goal in the game against Argentina(scored the opener before that as well). He was a force to be reckoned with in the Serie A, when it was at its heyday, and boasted a fantastic tally of 44 goals in 76 games for Inter at his peak.

Best described:

He was, in fact, one of the swiftest sprinters with sudden outbursts of speed that left his markers dumbfounded. How such a stiff and top-heavy person could transform into such an act of balanced grace still remains a mystery. He was forever ready to skim over a cushion of air. Sosa is best remembered for his image of speeding down the left wing, with his trunk slightly forward, his head erect, like a trotter racing down the homestretch.

Sosa will be taking defenders on his favorite left flank, and also be one of our goal scoring threats along with Kempes, Morena and Garrincha. An excellent finisher himself he will provide even more to our game in the attacking third.
Full profile worth a read

RWF: Garrincha - a true phenomenon and widely regarded as the best dribbler in history. He was the driving force behind Brazil's triumph at the 1962 WC title where he won the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot. If Maradona elevated his team to the 1986 triumph so too did Garrincha after he took on the mantle of Seleção's talisman with Pele injured early on. Speed, explosiveness, trickery, incisiveness - he was a freak of nature and one of the top tier players of all time.

AM: Zizinho - Pele's childhood hero takes Kempes place for this game. Regarded as one of the top attacking players in Brazil's history he was pretty much a complete player. Excellent dribbler of the ball combined with vision and passing ability, who was no stranger to putting in a defensive shift in as well. Winner of the 1949 Copa and 1952 Pan American games, and also awarded the best player of the 1950 WC tournament.

FC: Arsenio Erico - Considered the best Paraguayan player of all time is a complete striker - fast, great header of the ball and one of the best finishers in the game - holding the Argentinian league top scorer record. Erico was an inspiration to Argentine player Alfredo Di Stéfano , who considered him one of the greatest players ever. Other figures like Brazilian striker Leônidas da Silva and Paraguayan Delfín Benítez Cáceres also consider Erico as one of the best players in history. Argentine striker Francisco Varallo remembers Erico as a "phenomenon " that would excel in scoring headers due to his high jumps.

Why we will win:
Garrincha vs Cordoba - team EAP/Sjor will play in a 3 CB defensive line with 2 holding midfielders. On the left side Cordoba will most likely be up against Garrincha most of the time. While he was a solid defender for Inter, Garrincha will have a lot of joy against him and will get the better of him most of the time.

Erico vs De Leon - Erico is one of the best strikers in the draft and while De Leon was also solid CB for Uruguay in the 80's - we have the advantage here as well. Cordoba and Djalma Santos most likely be dragged outside of position and outside the box by our wide players - Garrincha and Sosa, leaving Erico on one on one with De Leon in the box, or having more space to operate in.

Advantage on the flanks - Team EAP/Sjor is more central in their approach and while we have very good core to counter that threat - with Zito/Veron/Godin/Ancheta and highly industrious Zizinho, we have advantage on the flanks - especially on the left with Neymar unlikely to cover for his man. On the right side, although much more solid - Djalma will have a lot to do centrally as well with Erico and Zizinho posing a great threat centrally.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM EAP/SJOR

Tactics:
Outscore my opponent!

Formation:
3-2-5

Defence: Ivan Cordoba - Hugo De Leon - Djalma Santos

Hugo De Leon is a three times Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup winning captain and a bonafide Gremio Legend. A ball playing centre back in modern terms, he combined the Uruguayan force football with Brazilian flair and won titles with Gremio, Nacional and River Plate. Unafraid to step out and tackle or physically impose on opposition centre back, he was a born fighter and natural leader in heart of the defence.

Ivan Cordoba was a fast, energetic and athletic defender comfortable at center or left of the defence. He had pace, stamina, timing, man-marking ability and leadership skills and will be a solid defence against any opponent.

Djalma Santos needs no introduction. One of Brazil's greatest ever defenders also comfortable center and wide out.

Defensive Midfield: Obdulio Varela - Marcos Senna

Varela and Senna make for a dynamic shield in front of the defence.

Varela is one of the best DMs in this draft very capable in box to box role too. Though Ghiggia scored the all important goal in Maracanazo, it was Varela's strict marshaling of the defence that enabled Uruguay to stay in the game and pull out the win. A classic DM who can drop into defence, he was the rallying point for the Uruguayan team and a bonafide legend. Not just in defence, he was capable in starting attacks too.

He's partnered by Marcos Senna, one of the best holding midfielders of his era. Varela's physicality and Senna's passing range and ability to dictate the pace of the game makes for a solid shield that is comfortable on the ball and can get the ball out to the front quickly.

Attack:

A fluid interchanging "La maquina" inspired front 5.

Central Creativity: Rocha

Rocha is the creative genius in the midfield. He will drop deep and bridge the midfield with offence.

Pedro Rocha is one of Uruguay's greatest footballers having represented them in 4 world cups. Exquisitely skillful he is as competent as a striker as he was a midfield link man. He moved with a casual and sinuous grace, at his best seeming to drift past opponents at will, displaying control, imagination and precision at the creative core of the team. There was dynamite as well as silk in the Rocha repertoire, and he was capable of erupting suddenly and explosively, delivering powerful shots with either foot.

Left Flank: Pedernera & Neymar

(Refer Spoiler above)

Pedernera / Neymar will be a dynamic combination that will prove to be a handful to any defence. Pedernera will reprise his La Maquina role and will be play as a False 9 of sorts frequently drifting into left midfield and creating from there with Neymar moving infield very similar to the role he performs currently. Both Pedernera and Neymar are excellent finishers and will be a dynamic goal threat all game.

Right Flank: Moreno & Jair da Costa

Jair is a very versatile player who operates as Outside Forward for NT and a one-man flank type winger for Grande Inter and successful in both roles. Here he'll start ahead and drop back linking to midfield with Moreno moving ahead and vice versa.

Advantages:

With the top heavy formation we sport, we acknowledge that this will be a open game with both teams scoring....and we will outscore Joganigma.

+ Freedom for Rocha: Rocha will operate in front of Varela and Senna and will have complete freedom to dictate the game from the middle. It'll be a creative midfield that will tip the game in our favour. Zito will have hands full with Moreno/Pedernera and Rocha will run this game for us.

+ Better Midfield:
Defensively - Varela is a better DM than Zito and Senna is defensively more astute than Veron
Offensively - Rocha's freedom (as above) plus support from a flexible Moreno/Pedernera tilts this in my favour.

+ Left Attacking Midfield: Pedernera dropping back and interchanging with Neymar will create a significant advantage for us in front of Ancheta. Veron neither has the pace not defensive solidity to provide aid here. Unless Zanetti tucks in and provides support as DM (which would impact his going forward), I see this as a sure fire way to goal for us.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito @Edgar Allan Pillow @Šjor Bepo

Good luck, gentlemen.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Wanted Anderson , got senna. Massive disappointment

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck EAp & Sjor. A few points to start off.

Firstly, we believe we have the advantage on the flanks, naturally, as the opponent is playing a fairly central-ish set-up. Now that does mean he has more numbers in the middle which off-sets that to an extent but I will get back to that later*. Cordoba was a fine athletic full-back but he has his work cut out against Garrincha here, esp with minimal support on his flank with Neymar not offering much tracking back. Not only that, without a well defined outside left/left wing-half, it does leave EAP/Sjor's left flank a tad bit exposed, as opposed to the right wing for instance where Jair's ability to work the flanks, Moreno's ability to help out and of course Djalma playing a defensive role makes it quite a solid flank. Now that could prove to be pivotal in the match-up and potentially leave Cordoba isolated with Garrincha, the best forward and player on the pitch, with service from the likes of Veron and Zizinho.

Secondly, the flanks of Garrincha & Sosa-Branco, do mean that the side-backs will have to work over time to deal with our wide threats (EAP's right flank is pretty good in this regard honestly), but it does mean that de Leon will find himself having to deal with the centre-forward (Erico) relatively more 'single-handedly', as opposed to him playing with a supporting centre-back. Of course, he won't always find himself isolated or on 1v1s, but the potential for that is higher in this set-up imo, esp with the wide threats we have on our team stretching play and dragging his side-backs, and of course, service from the likes of Veron, Zizinho and Garrincha. That could prove to be a good avenue for goals with Erico being an absolute goal machine and one of the best centre-forwards in this draft.

Finally, as much as a I love the idea of Moreno-Pedernera-Rocha-Neymar working together, it does seem to me like one of their presences (Pedernera or Rocha) in rather superfluous given the set-up that EAP is sporting here. It might seem bizarre as Pedernera played as a false 9 for la maquina, a team with a fluid forward five but let me make my case first. With Varela, Senna, Morena and Rocha already occupying the central midfield areas, Pedernera dropping in there to playmake isn't great, it would have made more sense to have a more defined spearheading striker, esp since you don't need a false 9 with Rocha playmaking and Moreno as the supporting playmker.

Granted, Pedernera did work as the withdrawn forward for La Maquina as too did Hideguti for the Mighty Magyars, but both of them clearly had a defined set of two inside fowards (Puskas-Kocsis & Morena-Labruna) with one being more of a complete forward and the other a goalscoring forward furthest up the pitch; and a clearly defined outside wing duo (Czibor-Budai & Lousau-Munoz). So it's definitely tough to draw parallels to Pedernera playing the withdrawn role in a forward 5 and this scenario, as it's really different with Rocha and Neymar providing a whole new set of tactical dynamics altogether. There do seem to be some pretty significant overlap in Pedernera's and Rocha's roles here and one does have to question whether a proper spearheading striker instead of Pedernera or an outside left instead of Rocha could have been ideal and more suited to EAP's set-up.


*Whilst he does have an imposing core, we do believe our compact rearguard and industrious midfield can nullify it to an extent. Firstly, Zito goes to his RDM position precisely because of the potential overload of Neymar-Pedernera and he does offer significant resistance to one of EAP's strongest areas, as he himself has stated

+ Left Attacking Midfield:

Zanetti with his defensive brief is ideal to combat Neymar's trickiness whilst also adding a further layer of security against Pedernera dropping into these areas. With 2 tough no nonsense Uruguayan centre-backs guarding the box, Godin, the best central defender on the pitch in the LCB role and Zito shielding the defense, with Veron capable of putting a shift in and Zizinho's industry and tactical nous, it is a compact rearguard which is well augmented with auxiliary wide support and industry from midfielders. I do think we are better suited to deal with his strengths than he is against our fortes. I wouldn't say we'd keep a clean sheet here but I'd say we have a higher chance of outscoring EAP/Sjor on account of our favourable match-ups.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Wanted Anderson , got senna. Massive disappointment

same.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Will leave edgar respond in more detail but just to explain our vision in short:
Neymar - proven in support role, will not drift inside in the buildup(without the ball, with the ball we are perfectly happy with him going in the middle and combining with others in tight spaces) and his inside movement will be the finishing one - behind or between the lines.

Rocha - he will control the game from the deep, in the final third he will be more of a finisher then a creator. Not sure what Varela and Senna have to do with all that because both of them will be very defensive minded. Both of them have have quality on the ball and we want to exploit that but only to the point where they are able to find a way towards offensive minded players and leave them do the talking.

Pedernera - main creative force in the final third, will benefit hugely from his teammates because we targeted players with great off the ball movement

 

[Enigma_87]

Pedernera - main creative force in the final third, will benefit hugely from his teammates because we targeted players with great off the ball movement

IMO having Tostao in there instead of Pedernera is much much better. Pedernera was not the main creative force in that final third he was the playmaker of the team and in terms of positional sense he was next to Morena with Labruna playing in the final third.

With Rocha you already have that playmaker that drops deep - two players that have very similar game is too much of an overkill especially in a 5 men attacking formation.

For me if you had an out and out striker or at least someone as a complete forward with an excellent movement would be much better fit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

First i want to stress out that this what we have is not a replica of La Maquina.
Second, there is no footage of Pedernera so its difficult to know how he played, i read a few articles and in all of them there is no mention of him playing like Di Stefano, just assuming that because Alfredo idolized him would be foolish IMO.
From what we found we think him and Rocha can make it work, specially because Rocha wasnt a ball hog, watched him in few 10 min highlights and in the first half against River in Copa Libertadores and based on that(small sample i know) even if Pedernera was like you say he was i dont think it would be a such a big deal.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

IMO having Tostao in there instead of Pedernera is much much better. Pedernera was not the main creative force in that final third he was the playmaker of the team and in terms of positional sense he was next to Morena with Labruna playing in the final third.

Pedernera was a False 9 first and Left Winger next. I fail to see why we need a FW ahead of a False 9. He's not a typical #10 constricted to pure playmaking. A deadly finisher on his own, here he has a free role and Neymar to interchange and pull defence out of position.

Rocha is the central playmaker and will be the one to drop deep, pick up balls from the midfield and drive forward. I believe he has as much freedom as he needs to cause damage. And your team doesn't have anyone tracking Rocha, which would give me dominance in the middle

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Here are some classic gifs of Rocha. Thanks to @Šjor Bepo . As mentioned above he was comfortable dropping deep adding to numbers in central midfield, yet lethal enough to drive the ball forward with Moreno and Pedernera peeling off to wings and creating holes in the middle.

Rocha vs River Plate - Copa Libertadores Final(first half only)

Defensive contribution:

Spoiler: perfect view of his defensive side

Spoiler: getting back into team shape

Spoiler: great tackle followed by a nice pass and move

Spoiler: interception

Spoiler: high press and nice cross, teammate missed

Spoiler: pressuring defenders

Other:

Spoiler: spreading the play from deep

Spoiler: Pedernera wont miss that pass :P

Spoiler: spreading the play

Spoiler: nice play

Spoiler: calm head under pressure

 

[Enigma_87]

Pedernera was a False 9 first and Left Winger next. I fail to see why we need a FW ahead of a False 9. He's not a typical #10 constricted to pure playmaking. A deadly finisher on his own, here he has a free role and Neymar to interchange and pull defence out of position.

Rocha is the central playmaker and will be the one to drop deep, pick up balls from the midfield and drive forward. I believe he has as much freedom as he needs to cause damage. And your team doesn't have anyone tracking Rocha, which would give me dominance in the middle

From what I've seen of Rocha he was an AM that as you said could drop deep but he was the main playmaker in the team and at his best he was a #10, or a second striker. He could drop deep but he was not a central midfielder in the mood of Veron who primarily dictated the game from deep. He could drop deep but he occupied mainly the area Pedernera(from what I've read about) did.

You don't need another forward ahead of him but with Rocha in there you are better with someone like tostao instead of him. To me dropping him to field Pedernera was mistake.

Our central core is Zito - one of the best DM's in the pool and all time, Veron who also participates in the defensive phase, Zizinho who is also known for his work rate and putting a shift in, Godin and Ancheta - two touch no nonsense CB's and Zanetti who will sniff out Neymar's danger or whoever you have occupying the left and tucking in. That's also the most saturated area on the pitch. I'd say we're very well covered in the center to neutralize that threat.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good luck EAp & Sjor. A few points to start off.

Finally, as much as a I love the idea of Moreno-Pedernera-Rocha-Neymar working together, it does seem to me like one of their presences (Pedernera or Rocha) in rather superfluous given the set-up that EAP is sporting here. It might seem bizarre as Pedernera played as a false 9 for la maquina, a team with a fluid forward five but let me make my case first. With Varela, Senna, Morena and Rocha already occupying the central midfield areas, Pedernera dropping in there to playmake isn't great, it would have made more sense to have a more defined spearheading striker, esp since you don't need a false 9 with Rocha playmaking and Moreno as the supporting playmker.

Granted, Pedernera did work as the withdrawn forward for La Maquina as too did Hideguti for the Mighty Magyars, but both of them clearly had a defined set of two inside fowards (Puskas-Kocsis & Morena-Labruna) with one being more of a complete forward and the other a goalscoring forward furthest up the pitch; and a clearly defined outside wing duo (Czibor-Budai & Lousau-Munoz). So it's definitely tough to draw parallels to Pedernera playing the withdrawn role in a forward 5 and this scenario, as it's really different with Rocha and Neymar providing a whole new set of tactical dynamics altogether. There do seem to be some pretty significant overlap in Pedernera's and Rocha's roles here and one does have to question whether a proper spearheading striker instead of Pedernera or an outside left instead of Rocha could have been ideal and more suited to EAP's set-up.

As Sjor says, we are not trying to imitate La Maquina player for player. Our team has inspiration from the fluid interchanging style employed by them plus we do sport the best two forwards from that legendary side. As you rightly point out, Pedernera's game would be slightly different from what he did with the Machine. Here he has Rocha behind him, so he can concentrate more on being lethal in/around the box. His interchanges with Neymar would be very hard for your defenders to track.

*Whilst he does have an imposing core, we do believe our compact rearguard and industrious midfield can nullify it to an extent. Firstly, Zito goes to his RDM position precisely because of the potential overload of Neymar-Pedernera and he does offer significant resistance to one of EAP's strongest areas, as he himself has stated

I wouldn't count on Veron's defensive support there to be significant., so that leaves Zito is one man with way too many people to watch. He has Rocha driving forward from the midfield, Moreno and Pedernera peeling back and I doubt any single DM could provide any cover facing those odds. He will be overwhelmed and the game will pass by him, despite his stellar credentials.

Zanetti with his defensive brief is ideal to combat Neymar's trickiness whilst also adding a further layer of security against Pedernera dropping into these areas. With 2 tough no nonsense Uruguayan centre-backs guarding the box, Godin, the best central defender on the pitch in the LCB role and Zito shielding the defense, with Veron capable of putting a shift in and Zizinho's industry and tactical nous, it is a compact rearguard which is well augmented with auxiliary wide support and industry from midfielders. I do think we are better suited to deal with his strengths than he is against our fortes. I wouldn't say we'd keep a clean sheet here but I'd say we have a higher chance of outscoring EAP/Sjor on account of our favourable match-ups.

I doubt any of these would happen. You are overestimating what you get from your players. No offence to Godin, but he's facing attackers couple of levels ahead of him. With Pedernera peeling off to left flank and Neymar drifting in, Zanetti should and will defending an area and not a player. Neither Veron not Garrincha has the speed or workrate or defensive qualities to make a significant difference there. I do see Neymar or Pedernera coming one-vs-one with Ancheta all through the match and that will always work in my favour.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

As Sjor says, we are not trying to imitate La Maquina player for player. Our team has inspiration from the fluid interchanging style employed by them plus we do sport the best two forwards from that legendary side. As you rightly point out, Pedernera's game would be slightly different from what he did with the Machine. Here he has Rocha behind him, so he can concentrate more on being lethal in/around the box. His interchanges with Neymar would be very hard for your defenders to track.



I wouldn't count on Veron's defensive support there to be significant., so that leaves Zito is one man with way too many people to watch. He has Rocha driving forward from the midfield, Moreno and Pedernera peeling back and I doubt any single DM could provide any cover facing those odds. He will be overwhelmed and the game will pass by him, despite his stellar credentials.



I doubt any of these would happen. You are overestimating what you get from your players. No offence to Godin, but he's facing attackers couple of levels ahead of him. With Pedernera peeling off to left flank and Neymar drifting in, Zanetti should and will defending an area and not a player. Neither Veron not Garrincha has the speed or workrate or defensive qualities to make a significant difference there. I do see Neymar or Pedernera coming one-vs-one with Ancheta all through the match and that will always work in my favour.

Messi came up against Godin a few times last night and Godin got the better of him. A couple of levels ahead of him is a horrible claim

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From what I've seen of Rocha he was an AM that as you said could drop deep but he was the main playmaker in the team and at his best he was a #10, or a second striker. He could drop deep but he was not a central midfielder in the mood of Veron who primarily dictated the game from deep. He could drop deep but he occupied mainly the area Pedernera(from what I've read about) did.

You don't need another forward ahead of him but with Rocha in there you are better with someone like tostao instead of him. To me dropping him to field Pedernera was mistake.

Sorry, but I disagree with all that.

I never said Rocha will be a game tempo orchestrating CM. He would just be the one to pick up balls from the deep and drive it forward. See the Gifs above which demonstrates that he can do this consistently and excel in it all game long...considering he has no one from your team challenging him.

Pedernera can interchange with Neymar far more than Tostao could and his links with Moreno makes his pick quite obvious imo.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Messi came up against Godin a few times last night and Godin got the better of him. A couple of levels ahead of him is a horrible claim

Are you claiming Godin is as good as defender as Messi is a Forward? If you have both Godin and Messi at their peaks (which is the case with drafts) I know whom I'm betting on. Same with Moreno/Pedernera.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Are you claiming Godin is as good as defender as Messi is a Forward? If you have both Godin and Messi at their peaks (which is the case with drafts) I know whom I'm betting on. Same with Moreno/Pedernera.

I'm saying Godin is for me the best centre back in the world at the moment, and he's never looked out of sorts against any of Barcelona or Madrid's front line. Infact hes as responsible as anyone for Atleticos recent success. he is absolutely not a few levels lower than Moreno/ Pedernera particularly without the footage. We aren't romanticising Godin, its clear to anyone with a bit of footballing brain that he's almost the perfect centre back.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i will probably get sacked after this but i agree with david, Godin is fantastic and Edgar went little overboard. While he isnt a top tier defender(all-time criteria) he is probably in a tier below.
They are making the case for Pedernera and Rocha but we can make the same for Godin, would he be as good as he is now in a more offensive and fluid system?

 

[Enigma_87]

Sorry, but I disagree with all that.

I never said Rocha will be a game tempo orchestrating CM. He would just be the one to pick up balls from the deep and drive it forward. See the Gifs above which demonstrates that he can do this consistently and excel in it all game long...considering he has no one from your team challenging him.

Pedernera can interchange with Neymar far more than Tostao could and his links with Moreno makes his pick quite obvious imo.

I don't get from where you got that no one is challenging Rocha. We have 3 CMs on the pitch - Zizinho, Veron and Zito - every one of them will participate in the defensive part.

How can you be so sure that Pedernera can interchange with Neymar "far more" is also interesting one - considering there is little information about Pedernera doing so in an actual setup while Toatao interchanged pretty well with Pele and two wide forwards/midfielders cutting in - Jairzinho and Rivelino.

Your holding midfielders will help on the wings a lot given your narrow set up so I don't think you have the big advantage in the middle you think you have.

 

[Enigma_87]

Are you claiming Godin is as good as defender as Messi is a Forward? If you have both Godin and Messi at their peaks (which is the case with drafts) I know whom I'm betting on. Same with Moreno/Pedernera.

Godin is the best center back in the last 5-6 years hands down. He came against Messi, Suarez, Ronaldo - the best forwards of this generation and more often than not came on top.

The biggest mismatch on the pitch is Garrincha/Córdoba and Erico/De Leon

 

[Enigma_87]

Messi came up against Godin a few times last night and Godin got the better of him. A couple of levels ahead of him is a horrible claim

It's exactly the opposite IMO - the forwards that he faces here are not on the same level as Ronaldo and Messi who he regularly faced in the last years.

 

[antohan]

Good work from EAP/Sjor portraying Rocha's game.

When he joined Sao Paulo he was hailed as one of the 5 best players in history arriving in the league by the Brazilian media. Pedro used to correct them substituting in history with in the world but even that would be remarkable seeing as Brazil had just won the WC with multiple legendary #10s.

To this day people wonder what might have been if he didn't get injured in the run up to that WC.

 

[antohan]

Messi came up against Godin a few times last night and Godin got the better of him. A couple of levels ahead of him is a horrible claim

Ludicrous.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't get from where you got that no one is challenging Rocha. We have 3 CMs on the pitch - Zizinho, Veron and Zito - every one of them will participate in the defensive part.

Zizinho is a #10 in your setup and Veron lacks the pace/defensive quality to hold Rocha off. And if Veron steps up to Rocha he'd definitely leave loads of space behind for Pedernera/Neymar to exploit.

 

[Enigma_87]

Zizinho is a #10 in your setup and Veron lacks the pace/defensive quality to hold Rocha off. And if Veron steps up to Rocha he'd definitely leave loads of space behind for Pedernera/Neymar to exploit.

In his earlier years at Parma/Lazio at his peak he came up against some of the finest midfielders in the game. It was the height of Seria A. He was more dynamic and explosive back then.

His positional and tactical sense is pretty good. Not that I'm comparing them but Busquets is not a fast player either - he compensates however with other qualities. Zizinho is an AM in out setup who also covers a lot of ground. He's one of the most explosive players on the pitch and also quite fast.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Ludicrous.

What ? I'm not comparing him to messi here

 

[antohan]

What ? I'm not comparing him to messi here

I meant the other claim. I agree with you.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I meant the other claim. I agree with you.

Ah right. I do like EAP statements though , he's the right man to be in charge of his team.

 

[antohan]

Ah right. I do like EAP statements though , he's the right man to be in charge of his team.

Of course, I would be the last person to question his combative style. That was as ridiculous as Vieri on steroids or poor man's Vieri though.

 

[Joga Bonito]

i read a few articles and in all of them there is no mention of him playing like Di Stefano, just assuming that because Alfredo idolized him would be foolish IMO.

He was the playmaker and the heartbeat of the la maquina side. In fact some even attribute the downfall of la maquina by stating that no one could replace him and even di Stefano (the young more forward-ish version) couldn't do it, although he offered more of a goalscoring threat.

In 1946, the output Pedernera made the design of the machine as everyone knew was over. Replace the playmaker, Di Stéfano took ownership, but the style of play of " Saeta Rubia " was completely different, more offensive and less cerebral than its predecessor.

Adolfo was the strategist, even more distinctly than Alfredo (Di Stéfano) ever was.

It was at the Monumental that Pedernera acquired legendary status and became the scheming mastermind of La Máquina, a revolutionary, star-studded team that featured five forwards capable of swapping positions


Pedernera was the Cruyff of that much-celebrated River team

With Pedernera in the role of maquinista (“engine driver”), River won three more league crowns and three more cups,

Pedernera's game would be slightly different from what he did with the Machine. Here he has Rocha behind him, so he can concentrate more on being lethal in/around the box.

Once again, Pedernera was a really complete player and could adjust his game, but one does have to question if it is the best use of him in a restricted 'creative final third' role. Don't think it's ideal myself, and a more well-defined centre forward would have been more ideal.

Fwiw, I think all three of Pedernera, Rocha & Moreno were complete and great players but I do think it's a bit of an overkill with all three of those players, given your current set-up, esp since you have Neymar and not an outside left which would have given them much more room to work with and impose themselves. With Neymar frequently cutting in, it only serves to exacerbate this issue and leads to a fairly congested middle imo, without even a single source of width on the left at all.

No offence to Godin, but he's facing attackers couple of levels ahead of him

I do see Neymar or Pedernera coming one-vs-one with Ancheta all through the match and that will always work in my favour.

If Godin is facing attackers a couple of levels ahead of him that what are Cordoba and De Leon facing here in relative to Garrincha and Erico. And that too with much less cover and higher chance of being isolated on 1v1s? I'd take that over anything you have.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

In his earlier years at Parma/Lazio at his peak he came up against some of the finest midfielders in the game. It was the height of Seria A. He was more dynamic and explosive back then.

His positional and tactical sense is pretty good. Not that I'm comparing them but Busquets is not a fast player either - he compensates however with other qualities. Zizinho is an AM in out setup who also covers a lot of ground. He's one of the most explosive players on the pitch and also quite fast.

Come on, for all Veron brings to the table, class player that he is, defensive sturdiness is not one of them.

Same with Zizinho. Like Rocha he can drop back and pick up balls and add to midfield battle occasionally, but he'd not be operating that deep to be consistently covering Rocha.

Zito will have hands full with Moreno/Pedernera and Rocha moving up will just overwhelm him with numbers.

 

[Gio]

Are you claiming Godin is as good as defender as Messi is a Forward? If you have both Godin and Messi at their peaks (which is the case with drafts) I know whom I'm betting on. Same with Moreno/Pedernera.

Timing's perhaps not the best given Godin robbing and subduing Messi a couple of times last night.

Godin's a top defender in this draft. Perhaps not in the Passarella, Nasazzi, Santamaria, Chumpitaz and Da Guia tier, but probably next in line after that. Had I got the better of Joga/Enigma, he'd have been my first choice.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He was the playmaker and the heartbeat of the la maquina side. In fact some even attribute the downfall of la maquina by stating that no one could replace him and even di Stefano (the young more forward-ish version) couldn't do it, although he offered more of a goalscoring threat.

Once again, Pedernera was a really complete player and could adjust his game, but one does have to question if it is the best use of him in a restricted 'creative final third' role. Don't think it's ideal myself.

Fwiw, I think all three of Pedernera, Rocha & Moreno were complete and great players but I do think it's a bit of an overkill with all three of those players, esp since you have Neymar and not an outside left which would have given them much more room to work with and impose themselves. With Neymar frequently cutting in, it only serves to exacerbate this issue and leads to a fairly congested middle imo, without even a single source of width on the left at all.

I doubt he's in any kind of restricted role here. Rocha will not be drifting left midfield which is where Pedernera liked to operate. You can see it clearly from the gifs of his ability in run the game from the centre line and carry the ball forward from there. There would be loads of space wide of him for Moreno and Pedernera to interchange.

As you say, Pedernera is also a goalscoring threat and Rocha behind will just aid him more in the box. I see them playing interchanging passes but not overlapping at all.

The formation could easily morph into

......Neymar....Moreno.......
Pedernera..............Jair......
............Rocha..................
.......Varela....Senna........

seamlessly. There's oodles of space in both flanks and versatile players to take advantage of the same.

 

[Gio]

It's exactly the opposite IMO - the forwards that he faces here are not on the same level as Ronaldo and Messi who he regularly faced in the last years.

I don't know about that either. Obviously Messi is an exception, but are Moreno and Pedernera really a level inferior to Cristiano Ronaldo? The main difference between Di Stefano and those two seems to be that Di Stefano went and made so much of his reputation in Europe. Obviously we can't consider 'what if's' as it all gets a little subjective, and Di Stefano proved his class by dominating the European Cup.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Same with Zizinho. Like Rocha he can drop back and pick up balls and add to midfield battle occasionally, but he'd not be operating that deep to be consistently covering Rocha.

He can do much more than that,

I idolised Zizinho more than any other player. His passing, shooting and positioning were frighteningly good. He did everything so well and he was the complete player. He could play in midfield or up front and he could defend well too. He was a brilliant header of the ball and there weren’t many who could dribble like him either. He was a born creator. And on top of all that, he wasn’t scared to play dirty. He could be tough when he needed to.

Much of his time, especially in the later years, was played in the 4-2-4 formation and as the more attacking member of that midfield duo, he was acutely aware of the strains the system placed on that sector of the team.

Zizinho belies the idiotic myth of Brazilian football being some kind of Carnaval in boots, a disorganised ballet with everyone only interested in expressing themselves. He was obsessed with tactics. I visited him in the late 90s, and spent a happy couple of hours chatting and debating the tactical diagrams that he loved to keep of teams from past and present.

He was well aware of the importance of such things because he played in a time when Brazilian football made massive strides in tactical terms. The groundwork for Brazil’s domination – the world titles of 1958, 62 and 70 – was laid in the 1940s and 50s, the span of his playing career.

a British journalist wrote of him: "we're not just talking about a great player, one of the many great players found in different parts of the world. This is a genius. A man who has all the qualities that should have a professional to get close to perfection.

Funnily enough the quote is also credited to Willy Meisl, brother of Hugo Meisl who was the manager of the Austrian Wunderteam btw

The great Willy Meisl wrote that Zizinho was “a genius, a man who possesses all the qualities imaginable for a player to get close to perfection.” The 'Gazzetta dello Sport correspondent commented that “his football is like Leonardo da Vinci painting a masterpiece.”

I was the youngest player in the league and admired veterans, especially Zizinho, who played in São Paulo. He was the most exciting player of the World Cup 1950, and I thrilled me to play against him now. I remember a game in November 1957, in the São Paulo got the better of us they won by 6-2 and Zizinho gave a real lesson was impressive piece your passes, kicks, positioning -... it was all a beauty (.. ..) Zizinho was the player I idolized most. "

He was a tactical strategist, who allied tactical intelligence with industry, and someone who was more than capable of affecting the midfield dynamics, both during the possession phase and off it too.



Btw, for all the talk of your front line, I'd like to hear more about your plan on dealing with our attack of Garrincha, Erico and the flank of Sosa-Branco?

 

[Gio]

Of course, I would be the last person to question his combative style. That was as ridiculous as Vieri on steroids or poor man's Vieri though.

Meh. I stand by that as a reflection of the physicality Nordahl brought to the table. Same height as Vieri, but packed another stone in muscle.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I doubt he's in any kind of restricted role here. Rocha will not be drifting left midfield which is where Pedernera liked to operate. You can see it clearly from the gifs of his ability in run the game from the centre line and carry the ball forward from there. There would be loads of space wide of him for Moreno and Pedernera to interchange.

Well if you played with a clearly designated outside left, then I'd be inclined to agree. As it stands, with Neymar cutting in, there is only so much space the likes of Moreno, Pedernera & Rocha can drop back/occupy in the central final third.

There's oodles of space in both flanks and versatile players to take advantage of the same.

Unless of course, you want to use the early version of Pedernera as the left winger, when he played at his peak for la Maquina, he played as the LAM with Loustau (nicknamed The Fan for his dynamism), being the outside left. He established a great duo with Labruna, but I certainly can't recall him dropping to the left flank in this incarnation. Granted, like Moreno, he can help out the left but asking him to cover the gaping void on the left flank, doesn't seem ideal to me.

 

[antohan]

Timing's perhaps not the best given Godin robbing and subduing Messi a couple of times last night.

Godin's a top defender in this draft. Perhaps not in the Passarella, Nasazzi, Santamaria, Chumpitaz and Da Guia tier, but probably next in line after that. Had I got the better of Joga/Enigma, he'd have been my first choice.

I don't think Santamaria or Chumpitaz are a tier above myself.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I doubt he's in any kind of restricted role here. Rocha will not be drifting left midfield which is where Pedernera liked to operate. You can see it clearly from the gifs of his ability in run the game from the centre line and carry the ball forward from there. There would be loads of space wide of him for Moreno and Pedernera to interchange.

Well if you played with a clearly designated outside left, then I'd be inclined to agree. As it stands, with Neymar cutting in, there is only so much space the likes of Moreno, Pedernera & Rocha can drop back/occupy in the central final third.

There's oodles of space in both flanks and versatile players to take advantage of the same.

Unless of course, you want to use the early version of Pedernera as the left winger, when he played at his peak for la Maquina, he played as the LAM with Loustau (nicknamed The Fan for his dynamism), being the outside left. He established a great duo with Labruna, but I certainly can't recall him dropping to the left flank in this incarnation. Granted, like Moreno, he can help out the left but asking him to cover the gaping void on the left flank, doesn't seem ideal to me.

 

[antohan]

Meh. I stand by that as a reflection of the physicality Nordahl brought to the table. Same height as Vieri, but packed another stone in muscle.

Oh, I never realised you were literally talking about steroids. There I was thinking it was the goal output you were referring to