The Americas Draft, QF2: Enigma/Joga vs EAP/Sjor

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Unless of course, you want to use the early version of Pedernera as the left winger, when he played at his peak for la Maquina, he played as the LAM with Loustau (nicknamed The Fan for his dynamism), being the outside left. He established a great duo with Labruna, but I certainly can't recall him dropping to the left flank in this incarnation. Granted, like Moreno, he can help out the left but asking him to cover the gaping void on the left flank, doesn't seem ideal to me.

The same Marca website where enigma pulled the pic he used above also quotes this to show how flexible the La Maquina were...

I don't have to use a "different incarnation" of Pedernera as it's his natural game to drift left flank/midfield. As I say he will interchange nicely with Neymar and cause so much trouble for Ancheta...and a clear route to goal for me.

Edit: The flexibility of that team is that you can't typically classify as Loustau as Left Winger and Pedernera as the L-AM. The actual game could as well be played with then inversing their roles and still being as effective.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Like a lot of modern players , there's a reluctance to give godin the nod ahead of his historical counterparts , He's an absolutely sensational defender and can hold his own in that second tier of centrebacks from South America , with maybe only figeroua and passarella in tier 1

 

[Gio]

I don't think Santamaria or Chumpitaz are a tier above myself.

Well yeah I admit questioning myself while listing them out there, with that top tier largely disappearing after Passarella and Nasazzi. Still writing his story as well, so room to edge upwards yet.

 

[Theon]

I like that EAP / Sjor attack personally - I think it looks great and very creative in terms of set up.

 

[antohan]

Well yeah I admit questioning myself while listing them out there, with that top tier largely disappearing after Passarella and Nasazzi. Still writing his story as well, so room to edge upwards yet.

Da Guia. Passarella, Nasazzi and Da Guia. It always amazed me how my grandad kept raving about the Da Guia-Nasazzi partnership 50 years later when they had only been together for a season. It must have been for him what that Milan backline has been for us.

 

[Gio]

As 3-2-2-3s go, it's very nice. Players fit their roles. The attack is cohesive with a healthy mix of intelligence and directness.

Obviously the separate issue is to what extent you buy the 3-2-2-3 as a legitimate formation against any kind of modern set-up.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I am not a big fan of the WM, it has too many inherent weaknesses. It really only enjoyed its brief historical prominence due to the 2-3-5 formations being used in England. Heck Chapman only "innovated" it as serendipity. Chapman wanted to play a 2-3-5 but didn't have the players so he tinkered. I simply can't see how Garrincha is contained here in any way that doesn't open up massive opportunities for Erico, who I think is being a bit ignored here.

Additionally while the front five look very mouthwatering on paper, I am not convinced with Pedro Rocha's role in the WM especially not with Moreno's arrow forward. I just see that attack and defense far too disjointed to flow properly for a WM. Formation is too much 5 pure defenders and 5 pure attackers. I can't see the WM formation containing Enigma/Joga's attack.

As an added bonus, Enigma and Joga are fielding Zizinho. Zizinho hates the WM formation (he blames the WM on Brazil's loss in 1950) and he would be extra motivated to expose the inherent weaknesses of the WM.

 

[antohan]

The same Marca website where enigma pulled the pic he used above also quotes this to show how flexible the La Maquina were...

I don't have to use a "different incarnation" of Pedernera as it's his natural game to drift left flank/midfield. As I say he will interchange nicely with Neymar and cause so much trouble for Ancheta...and a clear route to goal for me.

Edit: The flexibility of that team is that you can't typically classify as Loustau as Left Winger and Pedernera as the L-AM. The actual game could as well be played with then inversing their roles and still being as effective.

As the graphic states, that's Peucelle's River not Cesarini's. The dominant period for La Maquina is Cesarini's side while Peucelle just handled them for a season.

Note: don't want to detract from the point on him being able out wide, which is fine by me, just think we need to be careful with our interpretations as these things have a habit of then becoming gospel in future drafts.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I don't have to use a "different incarnation" of Pedernera as it's his natural game to drift left flank/midfield. As I say he will interchange nicely with Neymar and cause so much trouble for Ancheta...and a clear route to goal for me.

I'm not disputing that Pedernera had tendencies to drift onto the left channels/midfield or the flanks occasionally but it was clearly Loustau who, despite posing a goalscoring threat cutting in the final third, operated up and down the wing and was the prime wing presence. Not Pedernera, who started out as the outside left before becoming a more central player (somewhat like Charlton by the looks of it).

This is more representative of the side and more reliable given that it's from River's museum. I certainly don't think Pedernera and Moreno were wider than their outside left & right counterparts in Loustau & Munoz as the Marca diagram depicts.

It does mean that there is a gaping chasm on your left flank without a clearly defined left wing-half or an outside left, with Garrincha of people being our right winger. It does leave Cordoba isolated against the Brazilian and there's only one way that's going to end.

Once again, would like an answer to this, cheers.

Btw, for all the talk of your front line, I'd like to hear more about your plan on dealing with our attack of Garrincha, Erico and the flank of Sosa-Branco?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

When he joined Sao Paulo he was hailed as one of the 5 best players in history arriving in the league by the Brazilian media.

I'm going to have to ask for an objective source for this claim otherwise I don't think it can be accepted at face value.

 

[Joga Bonito]

As 3-2-2-3s go, it's very nice. Players fit their roles. The attack is cohesive with a healthy mix of intelligence and directness.

Obviously the separate issue is to what extent you buy the 3-2-2-3 as a legitimate formation against any kind of modern set-up.

I am not a big fan of the WM, it has too many inherent weaknesses. It really only enjoyed its brief historical prominence due to the 2-3-5 formations being used in England. Heck Chapman only "innovated" it as serendipity. Chapman wanted to play a 2-3-5 but didn't have the players so he tinkered. I simply can't see how Garrincha is contained here in any way that doesn't open up massive opportunities for Erico, who I think is being a bit ignored here.

Additionally while the front five look very mouthwatering on paper, I am not convinced with Pedro Rocha's role in the WM especially not with Moreno's arrow forward. I just see that attack and defense far too disjointed to flow properly for a WM. Formation is too much 5 pure defenders and 5 pure attackers. I can't see the WM formation containing Enigma/Joga's attack.

Yeah good points gents, still waiting for a response from EAP on how he plans on dealing with our attack .

As an added bonus, Enigma and Joga are fielding Zizinho. Zizinho hates the WM formation (he blames the WM on Brazil's loss in 1950) and he would be extra motivated to expose the inherent weaknesses of the WM.

He was well aware of the importance of such things because he played in a time when Brazilian football made massive strides in tactical terms. The groundwork for Brazil’s domination – the world titles of 1958, 62 and 70 – was laid in the 1940s and 50s, the span of his playing career. A key part of the explanation for the defeat of his 1950 side was its defensive frailty. In the old WM system of the time, football was a succession of one against one duels. If Uruguay’s winger Ghiggia beats Bigode, Brazil’s full back, the consequences can be fatal – as they were in the decisive game of that year’s World Cup, when Ghiggia set up the first goal for Schiaffino and scored the second himself.

Eight years later, when Brazil won their first world title, they did not concede a goal until the semi final. By then the national team were comfortable playing with a back four, with its key concept of defensive cover. This did not come from nowhere. In domestic football clubs were experimenting with this new formation and its variations – 4-2-4 and 4-3-3 – in the preceding decade.

Yeah Zizinho does believe that it played a part (other more important factors were at play too) but as you yourself stated, there is some credence that it could be ill-equipped in dealing with our set-up and could be exposed against someone like Garrincha for example. There was a reason why we had to use a different voting dynamics in the remake draft as it wouldn't have been fair on some of the older systems, against the modern ones in a direct match-up but that's a discussion for another day.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Like a lot of modern players , there's a reluctance to give godin the nod ahead of his historical counterparts , He's an absolutely sensational defender and can hold his own in that second tier of centrebacks from South America , with maybe only figeroua and passarella in tier 1

Quite possible – yes.

If he wasn't a contemporary figure I can easily imagine him being sold as an unquestionable, standout player: In an era not known for great defenders he was a giant among men, frequently shutting up historically great attackers, the only reason his pure credentials ain't better is that he nobly remained with the underdogs, etc.

He would've been a dream to sell.

 

[antohan]

I'm going to have to ask for an objective source for this claim otherwise I don't think it can be accepted at face value.

There's a Brazilian documentary, their version of Football's Greatest but for the greatest at each club side in Brazil. First chapter is the Sao Paulo Big Three (Rocha at SPFC, Ademir at Palmeiras and Rivelino at Corinthians).

They start with Rocha. That a Brazilian documentary series of this sort started with Rocha tells you the whole story, but if you can finetune your Portuguese check how in the intro they say "Um dos cinco melhores jogadores de todos os tempos" and how years later Rocha spends the whole interview saying "um dos melhores do mundo".

The caveat there is that as far as Brazilians go football pretty much started in 1958 and bar WCs it was only played in South America, so the claim that he was one of the top 5 in that 15 year period isn't outlandish. They probably only factored in Eusebio and maybe Charlton from Europe (if at all). These are the same inbred people who thought Beckman (sic) was England's best player in 2002.

Rocha on the other hand held a broader historical perspective and didn't buy it (probably found it a tad embarrassing in fairness). Still, just look at his record in the 60s, few if any players get close to it. WC aside, the guy won every single tourno/league he ever participated in at least once and often several times. He would have even won a few more Libertadores had the away goals rule been in place instead of holding third games.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

There's a Brazilian documentary, their version of Football's Greatest but for the greatest at each club side in Brazil. First chapter is the Sao Paulo Big Three (Rocha at SPFC, Ademir at Palmeiras and Rivelino at Corinthians).

They start with Rocha. That a Brazilian documentary series of this sort started with Rocha tells you the whole story, but if you can finetune your Portuguese check how in the intro they say "Um dos cinco melhores jogadores de todos os tempos" and how years later Rocha spends the whole interview saying "um dos melhores do mundo".

The caveat there is that as far as Brazilians go football pretty much started in 1958 so the claim that he was one of the top 5 in that 15 year period isn't outlandish. They probably only factored in Eusebio and maybe Charltin from Europe (if at all).

Rocha on the other hand held a longer historical perspective and didn't buy it (probably found it a tad embarrassing in fairness). Still, just look at his record in the 60s, few if any players get close to it. WC aside, the guy won every single tourno/league he ever participated in at least once and often several times. He would have even won a few more Libertadores had the away goals rule been in place instead of holding third games.

Documentary looks awesome, cheers! Now I have more on my video list to watch during my match later.
The reason I wonder, besides what you mention about specific Brazil history, is the comment sounded like what a journo who supported the club would say to big up their club's new signing.

 

[antohan]

Documentary looks awesome, cheers! Now I have more on my video list to watch during my match later.
The reason I wonder, besides what you mention about specific Brazil history, is the comment sounded like what a journo who supported the club would say to big up their club's new signing.

As said, it's biased but not from a Uruguayan but Brazilian outlook/perspective.

I pointed out in the original post how that was still a big claim when Brazil were world champions and had a whole raft of GOATs hanging around. There's being biased and being stupid and those claiming that knew they weren't looking like fools. That's how good he was.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

While the players in the set up work well, I think the WM is flawed and the Garrincha - Erico combination will come up with too many goal scoring opportunities.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It does mean that there is a gaping chasm on your left flank without a clearly defined left wing-half or an outside left

We are not replicating La Maquina player by player. The references was just as an inspiration for the fluid game play and wherever specifically we can refer back to Pedernera/Moreno. As you say, if we don't have a man in a place it just means we have an extra somewhere else on the pitch.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think the WM is flawed

@oneniltothearsenal

Just to address on the points of formation...The drafts would become quite monotonous if every team just recycles 4-3-2-1 and 4-3-3 with different players with a occasional 3-5-2 thrown in.

But that's not the point.

Here's a graphic of Pep's Bayern vs Juventus (I think)..which could well be a classic 2-3-5 sifting into a WM too.

Here's one more article on Guardiola again reverting (or attempting) a classical inspiration.

http://www.eurosport.com/football/p...-man-city-s-new-system_sto5822341/story.shtml

I think a game of football is far more about players and match-ups rather than just saying "Oh, you're playing this formation...you lose"

For example, here's what I think will happen when we have the ball.

- Varela is an astute box-to-box player and Senna is an adequate passer...both of them capable of starring counters quickly.
- You have Rocha deeper to receive the pass and Pedernera/Moreno/Jair all lurking deeper to receive the ball. Against this quartet, all my opponent has is a single specialist DM in Zito. Veron is there, but I don't rate his defensive presence much. My attack will retty much be overwhelming in numbers and I do have multiple way to get the ball forward.
- As I said Varon/Ancheta is opponent's weak link...which also happens to be my strong point with Pedernera/Neymar hovering there. Moreno and Jair are also lurking nearby.

Not really that hard to score, imo. Yes, it is a top heavy formation...but with the caliber of players at my disposal, not exactly a weakness.

 

[harms]

I like Edgar's attempt very much, but the further it goes, the more it looks like Garrincha will do a 1962 here and win a tournament on his own. Love Zizinho and Erico upgrades, they fit in the team flawlessly and highlight Garrincha's strengths here

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

the more it looks like Garrincha will do a 1962 here and win a tournament on his own

No doubt he'll have a grand game here, but the idea is that I'll outscore him. The holding midfielder in Senna will try to occupy Zizinho with Varela dropping back in support of Cordoba. Varela does have experience in shielding the defence against superior Brazilian attacks....so another (high scoring) Maracanazo shouldn't be ruled out yet

 

[harms]

so another (high scoring) Maracanazo shouldn't be ruled out yet

Yeah, it's certainly possible and you're right to refer us to Guardiola but I still think that Garrincha-Erico-Zizinho will win more often than not in a 10-game series

The fact that Zizinho and Erico are my personal favorites doesn't help your case too

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't know about that either. Obviously Messi is an exception, but are Moreno and Pedernera really a level inferior to Cristiano Ronaldo? The main difference between Di Stefano and those two seems to be that Di Stefano went and made so much of his reputation in Europe. Obviously we can't consider 'what if's' as it all gets a little subjective, and Di Stefano proved his class by dominating the European Cup.

Well to me C.Ronaldo is in the tier below Messi. Having witness his game and his transformation from a tricky winger, to goal scoring winger, to a complete forward and a poacher IMO there's more evidence of him being one of the very top forwards in the game, certainly in the last 20-30 years.

Now for Morena/Pedernera of course it's a bit subjective and and from what I've read they are excellent players as well, but even if we put them on the same level, they are a level below Messi. Godin has held his own pretty well against him, so objectively speaking, he'll have an "easier time" here

 

[Joga Bonito]

I think a game of football is far more about players and match-ups rather than just saying "Oh, you're playing this formation...you lose"

That's definitely not what Gio, oneniltothearsenal, Boris are saying though, there are some inherent flaws with the WM - one of which is precisely the question which you've been avoiding despite me asking you this 3 times now.

Btw, for all the talk of your front line, I'd like to hear more about your plan on dealing with our attack of Garrincha, Erico and the flank of Sosa-Branco?

Simply saying you are going to outscore us isn't going to cut it here without any semblance of a defensive strategy. Unless of course, you are trying to do a 'Arry Redknapp here.

- As I said Varon/Ancheta is opponent's weak link...which also happens to be my strong point with Pedernera/Neymar hovering there. Moreno and Jair are also lurking nearby.

Rather convenient of you to leave out Zanetti there isn't it.

Not really that hard to score, imo. Yes, it is a top heavy formation...

Definitely, as I myself have said before, we won't keep a clean sheet here and it won't be hard for you to score with your attack on show here. On the other hand, it will relatively be much easier for Garrincha and Erico to score here against the isolated Cordoba and De Leon - who would have found it too much to cope with proper cover in the first place.

I like Edgar's attempt very much, but the further it goes, the more it looks like Garrincha will do a 1962 here and win a tournament on his own. Love Zizinho and Erico upgrades, they fit in the team flawlessly and highlight Garrincha's strengths here

Cheers

but I still think that Garrincha-Erico-Zizinho will win more often than not in a 10-game series

Agreed, as the others have pointed out, EAP will struggle to get the Garrincha-Erico highway under control here. Esp since, the left flank is arguably the weakest area of his entire side (discounting Neymar as the inside left).


EDIT: Handing over the reins to Enigma, will be taking my leave.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

100 years from now , the great grandchildren of antohan and EAP are going to be on www.greenandyellowcafe ( we'll be back to Newton Heath colours by then surely ) and antohan jr jr jr is going to select godin in the first round of the draft because he was the defender who scored the goal that finally seperated the two sides who contained the ballon d'or winners for 8 years in a row.

 

[antohan]

@oneniltothearsenal

Just to address on the points of formation...The drafts would become quite monotonous if every team just recycles 4-3-2-1 and 4-3-3 with different players with a occasional 3-5-2 thrown in.

But that's not the point.

Here's a graphic of Pep's Bayern vs Juventus (I think)..which could well be a classic 2-3-5 sifting into a WM too.

You think that's Juve?

On point, that's a rather different setup and looks every bit a 4-3-3 when on the ball, in attack, with a high line.

I have attempted 3-2-3-2 several times before and agree with the general point on not just dissing formations so long as they have the right players. The problem is you don't.

You need a high line and the wingers tracking back for your setup to work. Jair is fine, but you lack someone like him at the other end (which also happens to be Enigma's most dangerous flank). And you can't play a high line because De León would end up stranded in midfield most of the time.

This is an America's draft and I struggle to see how 3 or 5 (@Aldo) at the back can be a way forward, it's simply not in our nature and not what 99% of club and national teams have played. It's a bit like England struggling not to play 4-4-2. Terry, great defender. Rio, great defender. Campbell, great defender. Play them in a back three and it will be a fecking disaster.

If you wanted to play top heavy you should have at least made sure you had the right (and few) players in the key positions that will make or break the tactic. You haven't.

I buy that your formidable midfield can impose itself and control the game, but I don't buy that you will outscore the oppo. You will be great to watch, but Enigma will be more effective. Nevermind Garrincha: Zanetti => early cross => Erico => BOOM!

You'll control the middle of the pitch, so your rival will just counter down the flanks and bypass that midfield. Both Branco and Zanetti can boss those flanks and provide the crosses, add Garrincha and Sosita and they are just cheating. Who's leading the line? The human jack-in-the-box, the most agile and resourceful striker that you could hope for when focusing your game down the flanks.

Sorry mate, but I can't see it, even if Obdulio is a marked improvement on John Pantsil.

 

[Gio]

I don't think there's a great structural difference between the 2-3-2-3 of yore and the 4-1-2-3 of today. There's a lot more fluidity of course and greater shared defensive and attacking contribution, but that's not really about formation and more about how your play.

What's interesting though as @Edgar Allan Pillow has alluded is to what extent modern elite club football is becoming more attacking, changing a long-term trend towards more defensive set-ups. The ball-retaining quality of the very top teams often means that typical back fours are redundant, especially against weaker opposition. The more balanced shapes do remain important though when the top teams clash: when there isn't a clear possession advantage any off-the-ball softness is usually exposed.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That's definitely not what Gio, oneniltothearsenal, Boris are saying though, there are some inherent flaws with the WM - one of which is precisely the question which you've been avoiding despite me asking you this 3 times now.

Simply saying you are going to outscore us isn't going to cut it here without any semblance of a defensive strategy. Unless of course, you are trying to do a 'Arry Redknapp here.

Rather convenient of you to leave out Zanetti there isn't it.

Definitely, as I myself have said before, we won't keep a clean sheet here and it won't be hard for you to score with your attack on show here. On the other hand, it will relatively be much easier for Garrincha and Erico to score here against the isolated Cordoba and De Leon - who would have found it too much to cope with proper cover in the first place.

Agreed, as the others have pointed out, EAP will struggle to get the Garrincha-Erico highway under control here. Esp since, the left flank is arguably the weakest area of his entire side (discounting Neymar as the inside left).

EDIT: Handing over the reins to Enigma, will be taking my leave.

Not sure what more you need on the defensive strategy.

+ Senna holds the fort against Zizinho.
+ Varela drops back in support of Back 3, something he did exceptionally well for Uruguay. A born leader, marshall of defence. Cordoba has the speed and strength to hold off...but obviously Garrincha is a better player and will get his chances through the game. Varela's presence should shore up the defence and stop Garrincha from running riot.
+ Erico will be up against Hugo and a tucked in Djalma. Or between Hugo and Varela if you are attacking from other flank.

I don't aim to keep you out all game. You'll definitely score. I intend to score more, as I mentioned before.

 

[antohan]

100 years from now , the great grandchildren of antohan and EAP are going to be on www.greenandyellowcafe ( we'll be back to Newton Heath colours by then surely ) and antohan jr jr jr is going to select godin in the first round of the draft because he was the defender who scored the goal that finally seperated the two sides who contained the ballon d'or winners for 8 years in a row.

Nah, he will pick him because after starting the qualifiers with both Suarez (4) and Cavani (2) suspended, after those four games Uruguay was sitting pretty at the top of the qualifiers with him as top scorer on three.

He isn't just a great defender, he is an insane big game player.

 

[Enigma_87]

While the players in the set up work well, I think the WM is flawed and the Garrincha - Erico combination will come up with too many goal scoring opportunities.

I agree with this, especially with Veron and Zizinho in the middle. Veron can easily find one of our wingers - Sosa or Garrincha from deep who will have more space than the congested middle of the park. While the right side is more solid with Jair and Djalma Santos, Djalma would still need to do a lot of work centrally which either leaves space for Sosa or leaves Erico 1 on 1 with De Leon.

Edgar/Sjor have done a good job meshing most of the players together(I still think Pedernera/Rocha could be possibly an issue gelling together), but in defence we have too much quality and I can't see how they can stop us from scoring more. Especially the right flank and Erico poaching in the middle.

In that 1962 WC Garrincha was often doubled, tripled and all teams Brazil faced didn't find a way to neutralize him.

Here Cordoba is expected to deal with him(as a LCB) with the help of Varela, who also has do loads of work in the center. There's just too much space for Garrincha not to have a great game here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You need a high line and the wingers tracking back for your setup to work. Jair is fine, but you lack someone like him at the other end (which also happens to be Enigma's most dangerous flank). And you can't play a high line because De León would end up stranded in midfield most of the time.

Did the classic teams playing 3-2-5 play a high line? If you the see the Gifs of Rocha the defenders are just outside of the box and not really high up at all. This is where this differs from what Pep is attempting now.

Tracking back in a 3-2-5 is to extent of helping the middle. From what I read, Loustau and Munoz totally different from Nedved/Di Maria/Beckham (purely in respect to helping out the fullback). Loustau was known as "Fan" but for bridging midfield to attack, not in support of fullback iirc.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Nah, he will pick him because after starting the qualifiers with both Suarez (4) and Cavani (2) suspended, after those four games Uruguay was sitting pretty at the top of the qualifiers with him as top scorer on three.

He isn't just a great defender, he is an insane big game player.

It was just one of the many narratives.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not sure what more you need on the defensive strategy.

+ Senna holds the fort against Zizinho.
+ Varela drops back in support of Back 3, something he did exceptionally well for Uruguay. A born leader, marshall of defence. Cordoba has the speed and strength to hold off...but obviously Garrincha is a better player and will get his chances through the game. Varela's presence should shore up the defence and stop Garrincha from running riot.
+ Erico will be up against Hugo and a tucked in Djalma. Or between Hugo and Varela if you are attacking from other flank.

I don't aim to keep you out all game. You'll definitely score. I intend to score more, as I mentioned before.

+ Senna holds the fort against Zizinho.

-Senna is an excellent player, but he can't hold Zizinho if he's left in space. Zizinho is simply a much better player and will beat him more often than not.

+ Varela drops back in support of Back 3, something he did exceptionally well for Uruguay. A born leader, marshall of defence. Cordoba has the speed and strength to hold off...but obviously Garrincha is a better player and will get his chances through the game. Varela's presence should shore up the defence and stop Garrincha from running riot.

- On a counter Varela can't drop that fast back without leaving space in the middle, which would be exploited by Zizinho. This is problem number 1. Problem #2 is if Varela doesn't help the flank Garrincha will have a lot of joy against lonely Cordoba there. Neymar won't track back nor help that wing, neither will Rocha. You need Varela more often than not on the left, but then again that would leave space for Zizinho in the middle and Erico potentially 1 on 1 against De Leon. Djalma will be tucked in but then we have Branco and Sosa on the other flank and Veron who can switch it easily in couple of seconds.
The narrow 3-2-5 is getting a lot of exposure here, especially if the formation is correct and you are playing a high line. Playing in a high line and with Veron in the middle capable of bypassing the midfield from deep and finding Garrincha and Sosa on the flanks would stretch your defence and is much likelier route to goal than a central approach that would be soaked by our midfield and defence.

+ Erico will be up against Hugo and a tucked in Djalma. Or between Hugo and Varela if you are attacking from other flank.

-Who is tracking Sosa then? Sosa is another very capable goalscorer who can find the net from pretty much anywhere, he doesn't have a boring goal

 

[antohan]

Did the classic teams playing 3-2-5 play a high line?

The Magyars certainly did. I can see @Gio's point on the 2-3-2-3 not being far from a 4-3-3 with a pivot, but this is 3-2-5. Different cup of tea.

If you the see the Gifs of Rocha the defenders are just outside of the box and not really high up at all.

I doubt that Sao Paulo side played three at the back. In fact, they didn't.

This is where this differs from what Pep is attempting now.

And why the Pep attempt you posted is very plausible and yours isn't against this oppo. Your rivals have the freedom of the flanks and the best possible target to aim for.

Tracking back in a 3-2-5 is to extent of helping the middle. From what I read, Loustau and Munoz totally different from Nedved/Di Maria/Beckham (purely in respect to helping out the fullback). Loustau was known as "Fan" but for bridging midfield to attack, not in support of fullback iirc.

Again, the Magyars had both wingers turning fullbacks as quickly as possible. They still leaked goals. I'm not saying La Maquina's wingers tracked back, they just outscored the opposition. I doubt they faced Zanetti, Garrincha, Branco and Sosa every week. They sure wouldn't be pleased to line up against Erico again, let alone with that service. I'm not even mentioning Zizinho here, he is toast against that midfield.

Basically, it boils down (as you admit) to whether you can outscore the opposition. I think it's a plausible proposition, one I have put forward before so I empathise with the difficulty of selling a back 3. You are just too weak where your oppo is strongest and he isn't weak anywhere to the same extent unfortunately.

 

[Moby]

With all due respect, Garrincha will absolutely massacre the opposition here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

On a counter Varela can't drop that fast back without leaving space in the middle, which would be exploited by Zizinho.

Come on.

They did face each other in Maracanazo, right? Varela was in a similar formation facing Zizinho and held his own all the while marshalling the team.

 

[Enigma_87]

Come on.

They did face each other in Maracanazo, right? Varela was in a similar formation facing Zizinho and held his own all the while marshalling the team.

No way that was a similar formation. Uruguay had 4 at the back with Varela in front Gonzalez and Tejera. Not a 3-2-5 where he's one of the holding mids and without full backs.

Uruguay's coach, Juan Lopez, had seen how Switzerland had unsettled Brazil in the first group stage with their verrou (bolt) system, dropping deep behind the ball when out of possession with a libero sweeping behind the back line. The war had cut Uruguay off from tactical developments in Europe, but Lopez liked what he saw, realized the formation's effectiveness and instructed the fullback Matias Gonzalez to stay deep, almost as a sweeper, which meant that Eusebio Tejera, the other fullback, became effectively a center back. The two wing-halves, Schubert Gambetta and Victor Andrade, were set to man-mark the Brazilian wingers, Chico and Albino Friaca, while Varela and the two inside-forwards played deeper than usual in what was essentially a forerunner of a modern 4-3-3.

Source Jonathan Wilson.

Completely different set up to what you have here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@oneniltothearsenal

Just to address on the points of formation...The drafts would become quite monotonous if every team just recycles 4-3-2-1 and 4-3-3 with different players with a occasional 3-5-2 thrown in.

I think a game of football is far more about players and match-ups rather than just saying "Oh, you're playing this formation...you lose"

I think this is a fair point. However I also think the reverse holds true as well. I don't think football matches can just be reduced to player names and some individual 1v1 matchups either. Otherwise we'd never see total surprises like Greece '04 or Portugal this summer. On papar, Argentina probably should have won the last two Copas as well.

I just don't think the positional/spatial battle can be ignored as that is how underdogs like Greece and Portugal have beaten teams with more attacking talent on paper - by controlling the space. While formation shouldn't be the final word, neither should simply comparing player's honors.

This is a great introduction and there are more excellent articles there as well:

http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/26/juego-de-posicion-a-short-explanation/

I know I might be overthinking and overimagining these matches but I can't just ignore the spacial and positional battle in favor of 1v1 or scoring statistics.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There's a bug here: The votes should be publicly visible, but they aren't - and the option itself is gone from the edit menu.

What it means, at worst, is that we won't know who voted - but given that it looks like a bug, it could get resolved simply by letting the poll close. We'll just have to see what happens, I guess.

The only truly problematic aspect would be managerial votes in the event of a very close result.

 

[Enigma_87]

There's a bug here: The votes should be publicly visible, but they aren't - and the option itself is gone from the edit menu.

What it means, at worst, is that we won't know who voted - but given that it looks like a bug, it could get resolved simply by letting the poll close. We'll just have to see what happens, I guess.

The only truly problematic aspect would be managerial votes in the event of a very close result.

Yeah that's the best option IMO. We can discount the managerial votes after all is done.

 

[antohan]

Yeah that's the best option IMO. We can discount the managerial votes after all is done.

So long as you trust each other to come forward with the real vote...

@Cutch and I couldn't trust each other to vote for ourselves to see the results, we once spent about 15 minutes of a final going "You first", "No, you!" via PM.