Ah, alrighty, thank you.
I forgot Castro, but not Götze. Also I have a feeling that last season Tuchel and Castro didn't seem to be on the best terms? I just noticed that he had good games and all of a sudden was completely out of the team which seemed a bit odd.
Angry about that, we could use that money and make a statement in buying a world class international. Now we get mediocre players, because they like each other (Schürle and Götze to make Reus happy). We are a joke. Every fan I know with a season ticket for the Südtribüne is not pleased. Feck off Götze. Do not want him here again. But that´s business, sad what football has become...
I agree Rode always looked good for Bayern when he had the chance but if you have to compete with the likes of Vidal in your position/role you play in the team it's always going to be tough to get playing time.
With Schürrle I really don't know where they would put him. They would either have to bench their highest payed player with Reus to give him his favorite position or their best goal scorer with Aubameyang or play him out of position on the right? I really don't know how he would fit into this team.
Yeah, you are massively underrating Rode here. Good luck finding a good and established 25 years old midfielder for 8 Mil. € even in the less inflated German market.
As for Götze being a bad deal, I strongly disagree. The thing is Götze´s first two seasons at Bayern were objectively overall good, he just never fulfilled his full potential (which is what Bayern payed 37 Mil. € for)or was as influential (he scored around as much) as at Dortmund. That is where the disapointment came from. Even his last season start was pretty damn good before he got injured in the fall. Even if he just plays on the level he showed at Bayern for the majority of the time, he is easily worth 25 Mil. € in today´s market. If he gets back to his best under Tuchel he is worth double that at the end of the season.
Götze is additionally someone the team lacked a bit as we clearly needed another creative midfielder. His synergy with Reus is also a major upside.
All in all, the only way this transfer won´t pay off is if Götze completely flops at Dortmund. I don´t see that happening and a poor last half season for a 24 year old is also not enough to convince me otherwise.
Name one "world class" player who we could have attracted with the wages we pay. We don´t buy world class, we develop it.
As for the reactions on the South, I can understand it, but I also ask myself how long people can be furious with someone who got his head turned at the age of 20 with a huge pay raise (three times as much) and the promise to be wanted by the great Guardiola and was in the end not mature enough to handle the transfer well. From my experience, a lot of the ire he received back then had far more to do with what the transfer symbolised than the person himself.
But then again, I´m also old enough to still remember how Andreas Möller was received when he came back 1994 and how much he contributed to the club afterwards. I don´t think I will ever particulary like Götze as a person, but I see what he can bring to the club on the pitch. That after all is far more important than my personal feelings about a single player. The wellbeing of the club will always be bigger than a single player.
Good deal, and I think he maybe able to resurrect his career.
They simply move Reus to the right flank, where he played over 60 games in his career? Especially with Götze centrally I expect him to drift inside and interchange postions nearly constantly with him anyway like he did in 2012/2013.
Agree, the wages are our problem. But still, I think we could do better for that amount of money. I do not have a problem with Götze, the money for him is ok. Sport wise it´s a good transfer, can not deny that, good business. But I have a problem with Schürle, he will get a lot of money and will cost us 30 Mio, we could get a better player for that. For example Jese from Madrid.
Good move for him. I hope he kicks on where he left from there!!
He should have moved to England, Spain or Italy. This seems like retreating.
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1) What the feck has Pogba or Manchester United to do with Rode and Dortmund
2) Go to "Pogba thread" and you will see that i've already said that i would never sign Pogba for such a fee.
3) Let do the BVB board their work -> We are here in a forum = I give my opinion = If you don't like my opinion then go away
We'll see in 6 or 12 months if he has improved the team or he's again a bench player
You do see that these two things are not necessarily contradicting each other, right?1
We'll see in 6 or 12 months if he has improved the team or he's again a bench player
I don´t see Rode as first choice midfielder right now, which does not mean he won´t be of great value for us. He offers tactically with his skill set and playing style something we did not have in the team since Kehl retired and we are hopefully playing around 50 official games this season. You don´t get through such a packed season, especially while playing CL, without good players backing up the first XI. Unless he picks up injuries, Rode will play a great deal more for us than he did for Bayern last season. Tuchel loves to rotate depending on the opponent and to keep the key players fresh so I would be very surprised if he plays less than 2.000 minutes for us this season. Sadly the development of the markets simply caused good squad players to cost quite a lot. Someone who would improve the first choice midfield would cost probably double that.
Rode as bench/squad player is surely fine but not as starting XI player for a club like Dortmund....that is just my point
Attacking central midfielders: Reus, Götze, Kagawa, Dembele, Pulisic, Mor and tomorrow Schürrle
Defensive central midfielders: Weigl, Castro, Bender, Rode, Sahin and Merino
For the money to buy Schürrle....i would have bought a quality DCM for the starting XI next to Weigl.....to replace Gündogan will be tough in the first months and to replace the important roles of Hummels in the team will be even more tougher.
If Gotze ever recaptures his form, this'll be a coup for Dortmund. Basically loaned him and got back a more experienced and humble version of their player, plus cash.
Dortmund Gotze IMO was the best young player in the world, better than Neymar even.
Dortmund Gotze IMO was the best young player in the world, better than Neymar even.
So you would have bought someone for a role that does not really exist in any of the systems Tuchel used so far in official matches? There is normally no one next to Weigl as he is the anchor player of a three man midfield behind two CM. These two CM are very clearly offensively orientated, which resulted in Gündogan intepretating his role far more forward than under Klopp and Kagawa moving deeper. They became basically CM/AM hybrids.Rode as bench/squad player is surely fine but not as starting XI player for a club like Dortmund....that is just my point
Attacking central midfielders: Reus, Götze, Kagawa, Dembele, Pulisic, Mor and tomorrow Schürrle
Defensive central midfielders: Weigl, Castro, Bender, Rode, Sahin and Merino
For the money to buy Schürrle....i would have bought a quality DCM for the starting XI next to Weigl.....to replace Gündogan will be tough in the first months and to replace the important roles of Hummels in the team will be even more tougher.
You are talking about replacing Gündogan, which is what we just did. We needed a creative midfielder, who can run the game and influence the game flow and we bought him. I certainly don´t see Tuchel putting Götze in a wider position with the options we have there. You are generally throwing together a lot of different player types in your list. Schürrle and Reus are wide player with the latter cutting in centrally. Dembele and Mor are with their strengths in dribblings/beating a man in 1v1 also probably more suited for these roles. Castro belongs in the first category and Bender in neither as he is a central defender under Tuchel. Pulisic could move centrally eventually but this might take a while (it is far easier to develop wide than centrally) and no one knows in what role Tuchel sees Merino as he tested him in both defense and midfield so far. I also see Rode as box-to-box player rather in the CM than the DM.
As of now it will probably look like this:
DM: Weigl, Sahin (Merino)
CM/AM: Götze, Kagawa, Rode, Castro
LM: Dembele, Schürrle
RM: Reus, Pulisic
As for replacing Gündogan, you might want to take a look at how much he played in the second half of the season. Despite missing him for large portions of that time, the performances did not suffer, mostly because Castro played a pretty damn good season half after a rocky start of the season. Of all departures of players, the one of Gündogan worries me the least, also because he never reached the consistency he had before his long back injury.
I like it how Sphero let clueless posters disarmed and alone. Class.
I would argue the other way around: It shows some balls to go back to this. He was 21, 22 years old while in places like the "Süd" where ca. 30000 people shouted against you so loud that even the soundsystem of the stadium no one heard. The referee had to tell him he should warm up in the floor to the dressing room. Every game for him against Dortmund was difficult i think. And now he is taking the step to go back. It would have been so easy to take the more money in the Pl and play without all these circumstances of the past.
I think after achieving like he did with Dortmund first time round, then getting the big move to Bayern, but ultimately failing to be a success there, I wouldn't be going backwards. I'd be looking for a new challenge.
I am with @slig here. What's the point of challenging yourself in hard water with Tottenham and Liverpool who may be pushed to mid table with bigger teams look to up their games, while he can every chance to recover with his boyhood club who has become a reputable big team in Germany in recent years. He still had time on his side to turn into a very good player.
My mate (big dortmund fan) is livid they have taken him back
I would be too if I were a Dortmund fan, we'll see how they warm to him eventually
Judging by what I have read so far he isn't the only one. Large portions of their fan base haven't forgiven him yet that he signed for Bayern shortly after proclaiming he was happy at Dortmund and had no plans of moving anytime soon. In hindsight he probably should have stuck to his own words.
I think there's many reasons to challenge yourself, but I do understand everyone's motivations in life are different.
You cherry picked the phrase, not the meaning of the whole point of the sentence. Liverpool & Tottenham at the moment arguably further from challenging title than Dortmund. Why mess around in way difficult condition (culture, status,...) while what Gotze needs now is a stable environment to restart his development? If he did well and further his development he can still get a move to top team in his latter year. Another failure with Tottenham & Liverpool can spell the end of his promise.
Yeah I've picked out just part of a sentence but the overall meaning is the same - to challenge yourself. If he didn't want to challenge himself why did he leave the relative comfort of Dortmund for Bayern in the first place. It certainly looks like a retreat to me. I just don't think it's a good idea to go backwards in life. I'd be speaking to my agent to manoeuvre a move to England, Italy or Spain.
@Noc-Z
Going back to Dortmund is a challenge too, just a different one than going to Spurs or Liverpool. At Dortmund he will have a lot more competition for his spot and a rather ruthless coach who probably won't play him just for the sake of his name or fee. He will also be viewed under a microscope from day one and he'll have little to no credit with the fans.
That's not exactly strictly easier than being the marquee signing of Tottenham.
Going back to Dortmund is a challenge too, just a different one than going to Spurs or Liverpool. At Dortmund he will have a lot more competition for his spot and a rather ruthless coach who probably won't play him just for the sake of his name or fee. He will also be viewed under a microscope from day one and he'll have little to no credit with the fans.
That's not exactly strictly easier than being the marquee signing of Tottenham.
Back to Dortmund is a big challenge in itself: the grudge with the fan base, losing his early status and he has to work to earn the spot, Dortmund has changed much,... Only thing which is more comfortable is culture. KDB had 2 good loan spell in Germany, while failed both time at Chelsea before making his move to City. Sometimes player just needs to calm down no further there development before getting back to top challenge.
Jumping from one hard challenge to another unprepared is pure gambling borderline stupid, not brave (look at Balottelli). Challenge means to better yourself, so pick one that better yourself now then move to harder. No one forces you to choose the hardest first: Gotze picked a bad move going to Bayern while clearly not ready. His priority challenge right now is realizing his potential, not feeding his ego: conquer new league
Here again, Dortmund is currently better team than Tottenham and Liverpool. Gotze wouldn't expect to break into their first team without a fight. So yes, you changed the meaning when you cherry pick the phrase in my sentence.
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I absolutely did not change the meaning of your sentence. You said: "I am with @slig here. What's the point of challenging yourself in hard water with Tottenham and Liverpool who may be pushed to mid table with bigger teams look to up their games, while he can every chance to recover with his boyhood club who has become a reputable big team in Germany in recent years. He still had time on his side to turn into a very good player". And I spoke about the "challenging yourself part". What follows in the sentence does not change the meaning of that so I didn't need to highlight the whole sentence I highlighted the key part that was the overarching theme. Whether or not we agree that moving back to Dortmund is a good move (we don't) I'm fine with, but I did not change the meaning of your sentence.
EDIT: In any case Tottenham and Liverpool are not the be all and end all...if he doesn't fancy that look to Spain or Italy. I am saying that I personally would not like to feel that I was moving backwards in life and I would do if I was in his shoes now.
Fine then. I got from your following post that you interpret my post as Gotze chose to retreat. While my post meant that Gotze shouldn't pull his own leg (going abroad) while his other leg already disabled (his development stagnated). I meant by going back to Dortmund Gotze would still be challenged, but it fits his current condition. What you highlighted from my post is not what I intended with my whole point.
I think they still should sign a proper Gündogan replacement instead of Schürrle. Kovacic for example, then this period would really be as good as possible for them and their squad would be stronger than last year even though they lost 3 key players.
After the EUROs where Dortmund even lost the last big player for the nationalteam to Bayern with Hummels (Reus beeing injured as always in summer), i think the main goal of your board was to get as many nationalplayers as possible to have Dortmund represent Germany alongside Bayern. With a block of Götze, Reus, Schürrler and possibly players like Weigl that might be possible.
Schürrle still makes no sense to me though. If he would be cheap(and he definitely should be cheap) they could give it a try, but for this money? It simply makes no sense at all. They should sign someone like Kovacic to replace Gündogan.
I understand. I do agree that there is a challenge to be had at Dortmund, and I can see why you think it's a reasonable move for him. But development wise - he is 24, I'd be expecting him to perform as a peak player not as a player in development (although you never stop developing your footballing brain to some extent with experience). I do understand where you're coming from and I can see the attraction for him but for me I still feel it's taking a step back. Maybe sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward but I don't see the benefit here.
Nah, they have enough options with Weigl, Sahin, Rode, Castro, Merino and Kagawa. Gündogan wasn't a big factor last season anyway. Apart from Hummels' departure, their squad has gotten quite a bit stronger compared to last season.
I'm sure Götze will make an impact, and Dembele already looks a bigger player than Mikidingsbums. It's going to be a tough title challenge for us.
It's great for Dortmund after losing Mkhitaryan. Gotze's talent is still very much there and I think he will show again why he was once regarded as one of the best young players in the world. Dortmund will have a very good season, they'll push Bayern all the way, and I see them as one of the teams with the potential to win the CL. I'd be very excited about Dembele and Mor too.
What do people class as his best position ?
CAM or an attacking CM probably. Depeding on the style of the team (if they play narrow, with attacking FBs) he can also work well on the outer positions.
Is that Mario next to Mats or some transgender fan?
