Premier League Gameweek 17 | Stop flogging a dead thread - Damien

[RobinLFC]

Okay. But obviously @matherto was saying he didn't rate Henderson very highly, so stating that he has completed more passes than Pogba just seems a bizarre and pointless reply to me.

Saying Henderson isn't a footballer is a bizarre and pointless statement. If he doesn't rate Henderson he should've just said so, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A player who has completed the most passes in the PL after 17 games is clearly a footballer (one who's having a very good season as well by the way).

Completely different players in completely different teams playing completely different ways.

Add in the fact that it's taken a long time for Mourinho to find the right system to accommodate Pogba and Pogba himself started extremely poorly, especially compared to the expectations of an £89 million transfer.

Henderson has horrible technique, no vision and no brain. I'm sure you'll be able to drag up examples of times where he has displayed great technique, vision and a brain but I'd wager they're very much in the minority of the sum total of his passes and general play.

I genuinely can't stand the way he kicks the ball. Him and Cleverley are two of my least favourite players to watch actually doing the simple things like kicking a ball.

Like I said, it wasn't a comparison or a dig at Pogba. Looks to me like you just can't stand him and therefore think he has "horrible technique, no vision and no brain" which is blatantly not true.

I'll leave it at that because we're never going to agree anyway. I rate him and think he's a very important cog in our system but maybe I'm just being monumentally stupid, who knows.

 

[JB08]

Saying Henderson isn't a footballer is a bizarre and pointless statement. If he doesn't rate Henderson he should've just said so, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A player who has completed the most passes in the PL after 17 games is clearly a footballer (one who's having a very good season as well by the way).

I think everyone understood that's what he meant apart from you. It's not like exaggeration is uncommon around these parts.

 

[matherto]

Saying Henderson isn't a footballer is a bizarre and pointless statement. If he doesn't rate Henderson he should've just said so, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A player who has completed the most passes in the PL after 17 games is clearly a footballer (one who's having a very good season as well by the way).


Like I said, it wasn't a comparison or a dig at Pogba. Looks to me like you just can't stand him and therefore think he has "horrible tichnique, no vision and no brain" which is blatantly not true.

I'll leave it at that because we're never going to agree anyway.

Some players are athletes and skate by on that, Henderson is an athlete, not a footballer. You play a fluid passing game so obviously some of your midfielders are going to have high passing counts.

If it's blatantly not true then like I said, I'm sure you have endless examples of his wonderful vision, technique and brain, rather than the exceptions to the rule.

 

[cyberman]

350 more passes completed than the second one in that category, Pogba. But yeaaaah he's not a footballer, is he?

Read those two names out loud and ask yourself if that stat still means something.
I agree with your 11 but I would have Herrera in for Lallana. He would be perfect for a Klopp side and adds added defensive protection.

 

[RobinLFC]

Read those two names out loud and ask yourself if that stat still means something.
I agree with your 11 but I would have Herrera in for Lallana. He would be perfect for a Klopp side and adds added defensive protection.

Context is everything. The stat means something because it's important to the way we play and we need that from him, otherwise I'd agree it doesn't mean anything. Pogba plays a different role in a different setup, of course I don't really believe Henderson is anywhere near Pogba's level.

I think everyone understood that's what he meant apart from you. It's not like exaggeration is uncommon around these parts.

Of course I knew what he meant Just think you should back it up with some actual arguments if you make (ridiculous, imo) statements like that, is all.

 

[Earthquake]

Tweet

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Sure, anyone could make that mistake.

 

[Kraftwerker]

350 more passes completed than the second one in that category, Pogba. But yeaaaah he's not a footballer, is he?

 

[montpelier]

Henderson scored that excellent long range goal at Chelsea was it?

And drew the 'save of the season' from Darren Randolph just recently. So is not completely awful as a player, maybe not the finest when under heavy pressure sorry, 'gegenpressed' , Can play a bit, anyway. Seems a decent chap with a decent off field attitude too. Laughed when Fergie said he runs funny & now defuses any controversy around the Barkely tackle that the media would love. Strangely likeable for an LFC MF enforcer after the likes of Souness, McMahon & the more sly filth of Ronnie 'over the top' Whelan.

They're a better blended team than us or Arsenal for me - let's be less controversial & look at Arsenal who you might say have more talented players but can have to defend with 7 men if they happen to have Ozil, Giroud & Theo on the park at the same time. Going forward, how much creativity do you see in Coquelin (can barely pass the ball 5 yards) & Xhaka who appears to be straightforwardedly shite in most departments of the game apart from collecting cards. Cazorla ends up being their best MF by a mile just cos he has the all round game that helps everybody else.

I'm not convinced Coutinho is a Ballon d'or contender or potential Barca acquisition but he can shoot & create on his day certainly. The Teapot has a good scoring rate & ability when he can be bothered & Mane is always a threat with his pace, Firmino is a talented all round team player who can score. They might not be top world class but 1/2 a dozen of them can certainly play.

The defence though - doesn't like being put under pressure does it? I would particularly finger Lovren for that, atm. Bit of a flat track bully it seems to me.

 

[Rafateria]

Henderson is not a footballer.

And you're obviously not qualified to comment.

 

[Rafateria]

The defence though - doesn't like being put under pressure does it? I would particularly finger Lovren for that, atm. Bit of a flat track bully it seems to me.

Nice post in it's entirety but I'm going to pick up on this one comment. Would you say United's defence is shite because Chelsea banged 4 past you ? Or was that due to injuries ? Whatever I think it's the same for most teams. Only two teams are defensively sound (Chelsea - 11 conceded, and Spurs - 12) .. and only one of those can do it at the other end of the pitch too.

Liverpool have only conceded 3 more goals in 17 matches than United, yet United's defence is considered excellent on SC whilst Liverpool's crap. One end of that spectrum of opinion is clearly wrong. Liverpool have had 5 clean sheets in their last 7 matches so clearly the defence isn't a major issue per se. Other than the Bournemouth match, which we can see as a clear anomaly where the team collectively lost it, over-confident / arrogant to the extreme after the first half and then couldn't get it back when the momentum swung.

I'd say that Liverpool's defence is similar to the team as a whole, collectively (and I mean the team as a whole, as a defensive unit, not just the 5 defenders) is clearly better than most (and not just on here) rate them, even though susceptible to the occasional brain-fart - as are all teams/defences manned by humans.

It's also clear that when we field our strongest back 4, Clyne-Matip-Lovren-Milner (pick your poison with the GK), the defence is very strong, which is supported by the facts (9 goals conceded in 11 matches when Matip starts).

 

[PickledRed]

Completely different players in completely different teams playing completely different ways.

Indeed, yet objectively speaking it's Henderson, the non-footballer, who has had the better and more consistent season so far. In fact, very few midfielders in the PL have played at Henderson's levels of influence and consistency - a key reason why Liverpool are 2nd.

 

[montpelier]

Nice post in it's entirety but I'm going to pick up on this one comment. Would you say United's defence is shite because Chelsea banged 4 past you ? Or was that due to injuries ? Whatever I think it's the same for most teams. Only two teams are defensively sound (Chelsea - 11 conceded, and Spurs - 12) .. and only one of those can do it at the other end of the pitch too.

Liverpool have only conceded 3 more goals in 17 matches than United, yet United's defence is considered excellent on SC whilst Liverpool's crap. One end of that spectrum of opinion is clearly wrong. Liverpool have had 5 clean sheets in their last 7 matches so clearly the defence isn't a major issue per se. Other than the Bournemouth match, which we can see as a clear anomaly where the team collectively lost it, over-confident / arrogant to the extreme after the first half and then couldn't get it back when the momentum swung.

I'd say that Liverpool's defence is similar to the team as a whole, collectively (and I mean the team as a whole, as a defensive unit, not just the 5 defenders) is clearly better than most (and not just on here) rate them, even though susceptible to the occasional brain-fart - as are all teams/defences manned by humans.

It's also clear that when we field our strongest back 4, Clyne-Matip-Lovren-Milner (pick your poison with the GK), the defence is very strong, which is supported by the facts (9 goals conceded in 11 matches when Matip starts).

Yeah, I went off & looked at wat you are saying in paras 1 & 2 actually and the simple maths of it say exactly what you say it does. Fortunately I didn't have to do a wholesale deletion because I can now be claiming that I was only trying to say the LFC defence can be 'got at' rather than the team look like shipping goals all the time which is obviously not the case if you're 4-0 up AND creating chance after chance to add to it at the other end. Which is a situation Utd don't enjoy too much but, as you say, everything with us is fine, because Zlatan is averaging a goal a game and we usually hang on, except when we don't. Oh, and sometimes he doesn't score... (tell me about it, in other words, is what I'm saying). I don't think Utd control the game at all well - although there has been a recent improvement.

I think I saw there's quite a few teams with the same conceding rate as LFC & Utd actually, but can't do it at the other end. Southampton, Middlesbro, WBA, Everton.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Indeed, yet objectively speaking it's Henderson, the non-footballer, who has had the better and more consistent season so far. In fact, very few midfielders in the PL have played at Henderson's levels of influence and consistency - a key reason why Liverpool are 2nd.

That is not objective at all.

What is it with people trying to pass their opinions off as unbiased or objective.

 

[PickledRed]

That is not objective at all.

What is it with people trying to pass their opinions off as unbiased or objective.

Empirical evidence over the past 4 months suggests that Henderson has had a better season. Who would possibly argue differently with any sincere conviction? Ok, 'objective' may be an ill-advised choice of words...how about "it's obvious to anyone with eyes..."?

 

[Kraftwerker]

Empirical evidence over the past 4 months suggests that Henderson has had a better season. Who would possibly argue differently with any sincere conviction? Ok, 'objective' may be an ill-advised choice of words...how about "it's obvious to anyone with eyes..."?

Empirical evidence?

That would be why Pogba is the highest rated central midfielder on WhoScored (Opta) and in the PL team of the season so far.

A truly objective source rather than PickledRed from the Internet who spends his days talking shite on a Man United forum.

 

[PickledRed]

Empirical evidence?

That would be why Pogba is the highest rated central midfielder on WhoScored (Opta) and in the PL team of the season so far.

A truly objective source rather than PickledRed from the Internet who spends his days talking shite on a Man United forum.

Or...Liverpool's best midfielder in the league's second best side after 17 games. The league table says so...is that empirical enough? You know, the league table...a truly objective source rather than Kraftwerker from the Internet who spends his days wetting the bed rationalising away positivity about Liverpool on a Man United forum.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Or...Liverpool's best midfielder in the league's second best side after 17 games. The league table says so...is that empirical enough? You know, the league table...a truly objective source rather than Kraftwerker from the Internet who spends his days wetting the bed rationalising away positivity about Liverpool on a Man United forum.

What hell does a league table have to do with an individual player?

It's an overused turn of phrase but that is literally one of the stupidest things I've seen on here. I suppose Karius is better than De Gea using the same logic?

Just admit you said something stupid and tried to pass a clearly subjective opinion off as objective. No need to keep digging.

Or carry on embarrassing yourself.

 

[PickledRed]

What hell does a league table have to do with an individual player?

It's an overused turn of phrase but that is literally one of the stupidest things I've seen on here. I suppose Karius is better than De Gea using the same logic?

Just admit you said something stupid and tried to pass a clearly subjective opinion off as objective. No need to keep digging.

Or carry on embarrassing yourself. Its your life.

Love the idea that a throw away debate on the internet embarrasses anybody. Oh, the shame of somebody I don't know having a different perspective to me - what will my family and friends say?

Good use of the Karius/De Gea straw man, by the way. Certainly a razor sharp comparison that carries water.

Simple question: who do you think has had a better season from the start to now: Pogba or Henderson?

 

[Pexbo]

Or...Liverpool's best midfielder in the league's second best side after 17 games. The league table says so...is that empirical enough? You know, the league table...a truly objective source rather than Kraftwerker from the Internet who spends his days wetting the bed rationalising away positivity about Liverpool on a Man United forum.

That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it. Your attack has been what has got you to 2nd not your midfield

 

[Cassidy]

Love the idea that a throw away debate on the internet embarrasses anybody. Oh, the shame of somebody I don't know having a different perspective to me - what will my family and friends say?

Good use of the Karius/De Gea straw man, by the way. Certainly a razor sharp comparison that carries water.

Simple question: who do you think has had a better season from the start to now: Pogba or Henderson?

Pogba individually tbh

 

[PickledRed]

That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it. Your attack has been what has got you to 2nd not your midfield

I'd say Liverpool's overwhelming domination of possession in nearly every game is to do with the midfield. An attack doesn't exist in isolation - certainly not in Klopp's Liverpool. The midfield platform is integral to the pressing approach by shutting down passing lanes, etc. Henderson has been vital in carrying out that philosophy. You may disagree with my perspective but to call it stupid is a bit strong.

 

[PickledRed]

Pogba individually tbh

Including August and September? Really? You think he was better in those months?

 

[Cassidy]

Including August and September? Really? You think he was better in those months?

You said overrall Start to now

 

[Kentonio]

Pogba could have spent all season making balloon animals in the centre circle and I'd still rather have him in our squad than Henderson.

 

[Rafateria]

Empirical evidence?

That would be why Pogba is the highest rated central midfielder on WhoScored (Opta) and in the PL team of the season so far.

A truly objective source rather than PickledRed from the Internet who spends his days talking shite on a Man United forum.

How about Sky's Power Rankings team ? No Pogba No Henderson - both are subs though.
Squawka's team ? No Pogba but Henderson is in it.
Must be in Carra or Neville's teams though surely ? Nope neither have Pogba or Henderson.

 

[PickledRed]

You said overrall Start to now

Indeed, which includes August and September (50% of the season so far) and Pogba was a huge frustration to United fans. Whereas Henderson has been very good from August to December - very consistent and effective, with one or two average showings, but who doesn't.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Love the idea that a throw away debate on the internet embarrasses anybody. Oh, the shame of somebody I don't know having a different perspective to me - what will my family and friends say?

Good use of the Karius/De Gea straw man, by the way. Certainly a razor sharp comparison that carries water.

Simple question: who do you think has had a better season from the start to now: Pogba or Henderson?

I would say your friends and family are less concerned about you saying stupid things on here and more concerned with why you never leave the basement because you're on here!

The Karius/De Gea comparison is not a straw-man but a simple way of demonstrating the stupidity of your statement. You can replace that comparison with many others where an average player happens to be above better players in the league. There are hundreds of examples.

I would say Pogba has objectively (the view of WhoScored etc) and subjectively (my view) had the better season. Slow start but been immense for a few months now and capable of producing sublime moments Henderson could only dream of. You'll pick this apart as biased etc. I don't care. That's the difference between subjective and objective.

 

[Klopper76]

Pogba could have spent all season making balloon animals in the centre circle and I'd still rather have him in our squad than Henderson.

I bet Henderson makes better balloon animals than Pogba.

 

[Cassidy]

Indeed, which includes August and September (50% of the season so far) and Pogba was a huge frustration to United fans. Whereas Henderson has been very good from August to December - very consistent and effective, with one or two average showings, but who doesn't.

I don't care about what United fans think I can only give my opinion. I think Pogba has created most of the chances United create over the course of the season so far. Bar a few games I can remember Watford, maybe Hull and Chelsea his performances were a little harshly critiqued IMO but that can happen when you are the most expensive player in the world

I am sure Henderson had a spell where he was playing better, but overall I think Pogba has been better than him thats all.

 

[Rafateria]

I bet Henderson makes better balloon animals than Pogba.

I bet he doesn't ! Pogba's world class !

 

[Kentonio]

I bet Henderson makes better balloon animals than Pogba.

 

[Dec9003]

I bet Henderson makes better balloon animals than Pogba.

Yeah, because Hendo is a clown

 

[Klopper76]

Yeah, because Hendo is a clown

Walked right into that one.

 

[Kraftwerker]

I think Henderson would struggle with balloons, being a mouth-breather. He'd probably pass out.

 

[PickledRed]

I don't care about what United fans think I can only give my opinion. I think Pogba has created most of the chances United create over the course of the season so far. Bar a few games I can remember Watford, maybe Hull and Chelsea his performances were a little harshly critiqued IMO but that can happen when you are the most expensive player in the world

I am sure Henderson had a spell where he was playing better, but overall I think Pogba has been better than him thats all.

Henderson has been a DM so less likely to produce chances - plenty of players doing that. Although Henderson is always worth an assist. Anyway, taken as a whole, Henderson had been far more consistent in a team playing better since August.

 

[Kraftwerker]

The consistency argument is a misnomer too.

Consistently being Jordan Henderson still doesn't make you better than Paul Pogba, whether Pogba has been consistent or not (he has been pretty consistent for months, hence his very high score).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Or...Liverpool's best midfielder in the league's second best side after 17 games. The league table says so...is that empirical enough? You know, the league table...a truly objective source rather than Kraftwerker from the Internet who spends his days wetting the bed rationalising away positivity about Liverpool on a Man United forum.

Yes you are second because of Henderson. Makes sense.

 

[Cassidy]

Henderson has been a DM so less likely to produce chances - plenty of players doing that. Although Henderson is always worth an assist. Anyway, taken as a whole, Henderson had been far more consistent in a team playing better since August.

Defensively you haven't been that great

 

[PickledRed]

Yes you are second because of Henderson. Makes sense.

He's been a key factor. No doubt.

 

[Sandikan]

Mane was better than Martial last season and has been streets ahead this, but I'm sure he will come good when he's not so hot and cold. .

I don't think many would agree with this! Certainly not on this forum. Martial was terrific last season.