Everyone over exaggerates, 39 points in your first 19 games is not bad by any measure, not to mention they did quite well against Barcelona too. A slight improvement on their first half too will see them hit 80+ points, everyone is just skewed about how their team is performing because Chelsea have had a ridiculous run. There is no way they'll keep up the pace for 98 points and it'll make everything look far better in retrospect.
Pep Guardiola: Premier League not more intense than La Liga, Bundesliga
- Thread starter kouroux
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Transitional problems are always to be expected when you let Pep take over a squad like City's. I think their very good start of the season pushed expectations a bit too high.
I am pretty sure that he could have vetoed any Bayern transfer. At least this is what was said by German caftards here, which makes perfectly sense.
As far as I understood, he had discussions with DoF (forgot his name, but he was at BVB before) on potential targets and together they decided whom they sign. A bit similar to Klopp's relation with DoF, with both manager and DoF being able to veto the signing.
Also, at Bayern Rummenige isn't in charge of transfers (although he is the biggest boss there). The guy who replaced Hoeness is.
Pep never had a plan b for Barca and Bayern, he had Xavi and iniesta on their prime and when he moved to Germany he had the best team who beat Barca 7-0 in 2 games (tito's team), so will be interesting to see if he can build a team and we will see by next season.
The reason why they finished 3rd is because on top of all the injuries he suffered Ronaldinho had lost his interest in football by that time too. Also Laporta announced that he would be leaving before Pep even took over. Decos contract also finished so he left on a free and Keita also was signed before Pep took over.
Alves was in demand that season and even we were in for him so I doubt it was Pep who engineered his transfer considering it was completed just after the season finished. And as for Pique he requested to leave because he believed he couldn't displace Rio and Vida so it wasn't a cass of Barcelona coming knocking for him.
In the season before Guardiola took over Messi started to hit his stride and became a key player in Ronaldinhos absence for most of the season. He hit the ground running and won 3 Ballon D'ors on the bounce from then for pretty much lifting Barcelona to a completely out of this world level. If you have a player who guarantees a goal almost every game in your team then its like the game starts on a handicap not much work is needed from the manager.
The underachieving was mostly tongue in cheek in the sesne that they should have won the league and Champions League every single year with that ridiculous star studded team. Just take another look and tell me if there was anyone to challenge them at least on paper at the time.
As for his time at Bayern no one speaks a good word about him there. He took a treble winning team and got completely humiliated in the Champions League, Bayerns only real challenge.
His time at City will show him for the fraud that he is and his tenure will be short lived. Bookmark this so we can discuss again when that time comes.
The team won those trophies. He was lucky enough to be manager at the time. If he was such a master tactician with a team at his disposal he should have obliterated anyone in their path and dominated every competition they entered and especially a 10 men Inter Milan at Camp Nou led by Mourinho. As I said it was tongue in cheek in the sesne that they should have won everything.
I agree. That Barca team was the best in history. I cannot think of any better composition of stars in one team. What I disagree on is that it was Peps Barca. He had very very very little to do with that team. The team would pick itself and the tactics would set themselves, pass it to Messi and celebrate the goal. Vilanova, God rest his soul, took over after him with no relative experience and the team just kept on winning. The team carried on the same way with Martini although they narrowly missed out on the title on the last day against Atletico who fully deserved it that season. The another fraud took over, Luis Enrique and the team just kept on doing what it did for almost a decade.
You can't call world class managers Pep and Enriqie who have been lucky enough to be given the opportunity to manage the best team in the world with the best individual player in the world in it who can just turn a game on his own at his leisure. Pep will be proven a fraud at City and Enrique has already shown who he was at Roma and Celta.
World class managers are those who build and rebuild teams over and over and outmaster and outperform teams that they have absolutely no right to on paper. These managers are the likes of SAF, Mourinho, Simeone, Ancelotti and a select few others.
For Pep to be mentioned in the same sentence as the other two is insulting. Its quite evident how much of a fraud he is when he says that Bundesliga where Bayern wrap the league up in September and the two horse La Liga race is more intense than the English Premier League. This man doesn't seem to even understand football let alone be able to manage it.
I will leave it at this as most people don't like to scratch below the surface and like to follow the circus around Pep but let's revisit this at the end of the season and take stock of what has happened.
It's quite difficult to have a fair and shared consensus on Pep's actual status in the game.
Barcelona - took over a great, CL-winning, league-winning team with a player whom many if not most see as the GOAT. Won the CL, league and domestic cups.
Bayern - took over a great, CL-winning, league-winning team. Won the league and domestic cups.
There isn't a case where he took over a struggling team and made them into world champions, and of course when a manager reaches those heights there's no reason to come over to the EPL and take over, say, a West Brom or Swansea. Obviously you'll take on a contender.
Pep's City started blistering hot and has now cooled a bit, but it's just 6 months! When the season started many were in awe. And now they've either flipped or the scavengers have appeared to feast on a fallen star (they've always wanted it to happen, but cowered in the light of City's start).
I'd say we'd have given Pep enough of a leeway by end of the season to make an initial assessment, and by end of next season to have a fair, whole assessment. And then, of course he'll have to prove himself season-by-season after.
Barcelona - took over a great, CL-winning, league-winning team with a player whom many if not most see as the GOAT. Won the CL, league and domestic cups.
Bayern - took over a great, CL-winning, league-winning team. Won the league and domestic cups.
There isn't a case where he took over a struggling team and made them into world champions, and of course when a manager reaches those heights there's no reason to come over to the EPL and take over, say, a West Brom or Swansea. Obviously you'll take on a contender.
Pep's City started blistering hot and has now cooled a bit, but it's just 6 months! When the season started many were in awe. And now they've either flipped or the scavengers have appeared to feast on a fallen star (they've always wanted it to happen, but cowered in the light of City's start).
I'd say we'd have given Pep enough of a leeway by end of the season to make an initial assessment, and by end of next season to have a fair, whole assessment. And then, of course he'll have to prove himself season-by-season after.
People were in awe? Seriously? They beat Sunderland, Swansea, Stoke, West Ham, Bournemouth and scraped a win against us while our team didn't turn up for 45 minutes.
They've lost to us in LC, Liverpool Spurs, Chelsea and Leicester in EPL. All the big games they have just been brushed aside. The music will stop soon.
Pep and Jose are having a hard time proving that when the gap in squads is fairly negligible aren't they?
I was one of those people who thought he would struggle in EPL a bit at least in the beginning. And I hoped he failed with city here for obvious reasons and I still do despite I like his style.
But, it is a bit of weird argument to put his achievements down just because he took over 'good' teams. Many 'good' managers have failed to take 'good teams' and make them 'champions' as well. So not everyone would succeed even with 'good team'.
But, it is a bit of weird argument to put his achievements down just because he took over 'good' teams. Many 'good' managers have failed to take 'good teams' and make them 'champions' as well. So not everyone would succeed even with 'good team'.
There is a vast difference between a good team and the best team in the world with the best individual player in the world.
His participation in those achievements can be classed as negligible considering he didn't assemble the team that was all Rijkard, he had no real experience as a manager except Barca B and landed in possibly one of the biggest jobs in world football and the most damning fact of all is that the team carried on the same way even without him when his successors took over. Two of which were one with no experience and the other one a failure.
All three of these unexperienced managers, Pep, Tito and Enrique have almost identical win percentages of ~75%. How does a manager with no prior experience reach world class heights overnight? The devil is always in the detail but no one really cares about them.
Last edited:
I can't believe that some of our fans still think this is true. Didn't Moyes take some of the best players in the world (RVP, Rio, Vida, etc.) and turn them into "not even good enough to win 2 games in a row" type pub footballers?
Yeah of course he lucked out, didn't he?
I mean clubs owners, highly talented footballers, everyone within football circle were idiots and somehow got manipulated that Pep was in fact a quality coach while he is not.
And of course tito, enrique are nothing like top managers as well. You brought up about win percentages. Well, what about the trophies counts?
Oh remember this as well, when pep was there, he was competing with Jose who you probably rate higher. Trophies count could have been higher if not for him.
For all his faults Moyes inherited a team in desperate rejuvenation. No United fan disputes that. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and even RVP on their last legs.
This the team Moyes had available for his first game:
- 01 De Gea 24
- 03 Evra 33
- 04 Jones 22
- 05 Ferdinand 36
- 15 Vidic 33
- 11 Giggs 41
- 16 Carrick 33
- 10 Rooney 29
- 23 Cleverley 25
- 25 Valencia 29
- 20 Van Persie 31
Compare it to this as Pep's first game:
1 Víctor Valdés 26
22 E. Abidal 28
20 Dani Alves 25
4 R. Márquez 29
5 Puyol 30
6 Xavi 28
24 Y. Touré 25
8 Iniesta 24
10 L. Messi 21
9 S. Eto'o 27
14 T. Henry 30
With the likes of Keita, Pedro, Pique and Busquets on the bench.
A team of players well past their peak vs a team of players at their absolute peak and an emerging Leo Messi who was probably considered peak from the get go.
You think if Moyes had inherited that Barca team he'd do worse than Pep?
I have a late night quarter baked theory about why inexperienced managers do well at Barca. It's because they don't really do anything significant to put the players off doing what they do best. That makes them good managers though it seems. Puzzling!
With that I bid you good night.
IF moyes had that barca team, would he do worse than pep?
wtf seriously. LOL
Of course, he would.
wtf seriously. LOL
Of course, he would.
Barcelona hires only managers that are suitable to continue their playing style with of course little tactical agjustments. Thats why Pep, Tito and Enrique are succesfull there and someone like Tata Martino is NOT. Moyes would have failed miserably with that Barca squad just because his way of playing football is from another galaxy compared to Barca's.
Pep's biggest struggle outside Barca so far is exactly with the style of play he wants to implement at his new clubs. Barca played for years in that way (the Cruyff way) and its something natural for them. Bayern as a big traditional club has own way of playing, City dosn't but English football does. Changing that is actually Guardiolas biggest task. In Germany he had mixed success, so far here in England he is struggling.
Pep's biggest struggle outside Barca so far is exactly with the style of play he wants to implement at his new clubs. Barca played for years in that way (the Cruyff way) and its something natural for them. Bayern as a big traditional club has own way of playing, City dosn't but English football does. Changing that is actually Guardiolas biggest task. In Germany he had mixed success, so far here in England he is struggling.
Last edited:
The United player ages are all wrong and I suspect you know that.
In bold are their actual ages for his first game.
Last edited:
I think people fail to realize that Barca were pretty much lucky or prepared to get managers who were pretty much groomed to become their manager or like you said having similar mentality and playing style to keep on their success.
We at United wanted it and tried it without actually being successful obviously.
It's not just the board. Their fans expect Barcelona to play possession football, and if a manager doesn't play that way, even if he won the treble, their fans wouldn't be completely happy. It's like when United fans were unsatisfied at LVG's style despite winning games.
So Pep goes to a struggling Barca that had finished behind Schuster's Madrid and Pellegrini's Villareal and during that time, that Barca side achieves more than it has ever done in its history, and continues to do well even after he has left. Caf conclusuon: He had a negligible effect on that Barca side
Van Gaal goes to Barca, a year after they had won two trophies and stays there for three seasons winning two league titles but doing poorly in Europe. CAF conclusion: Van Gaal laid the foundations at Barca.
I can get the reason why Pep isn't loved on here, but we United fans should know better. We saw first hand the difference between the 2008 and 2009 Barca sides. With the only change between the two sides being a change in manager.
Van Gaal goes to Barca, a year after they had won two trophies and stays there for three seasons winning two league titles but doing poorly in Europe. CAF conclusion: Van Gaal laid the foundations at Barca.
I can get the reason why Pep isn't loved on here, but we United fans should know better. We saw first hand the difference between the 2008 and 2009 Barca sides. With the only change between the two sides being a change in manager.
Surprising that he got all the ages wrong.
But unsurprising that none of the errors were an understatement.
Giggs retired at 40 ffs.
That's just agenda posting.
Yes and your example with LVG is very good because the Dutchman struggled a lot during his 3 years at Barcelona exactly because of that. Van Gaal won 2 La Liga titles, 1 Copa Del Rey, 1 Supercup of Europe with Barca but he never won the fans, media and even at latter stage the players ( his fallout with Rivaldo is legendary) with his style of play wich actually differs from Cruyff's a lot. Barca played slowly, often sitting back and waiting for the counter and
with a lot of crosses and hoofballs too. His tight regime not allowing any freedom to his players and trying to sign half of this Ajax team back then because he was able to work only with that kind of players and so on..
What I believe separates Pep from the likes of SAF Or Heyncks is their ability to evolve the football on the pitch. Pep has one way of playing which is high up the pitch with plenty of possession and interplay. Chelsea, Liverpool and Leicester exposed that tactic beautifully this season. Does not matter if he spends £50m, £100m, £200m in the next few windows if the tactics have flaws then good players will expose it
I don't get that either, surely it should be the other way around.
Most of them, yes. Not the strategic ones. Bayern hired guardiola knowing he'd stay for 3 years.
Ultimately i think the final decision was up to their DoF. Or Rumenigge
Yeah, you're right
Last edited:
Cheap insults can't compensate for lack of sense. Most of those £150m + were for young talents who were not supposed to make a massive difference right away. One of them (Gabriel) hasn't even kicked a ball so far. Similarly to Jose (who added 4 outstanding players to LVG's squad but has barely outperformed LVG and Moyes in terms of results), Guardiola has underachieved so far. But you talk bollocks when you say that they (or their players) have been worse than last season.
To say his participation in Barca success was negligible is laughable to say the least...
But lets be honest he has been poor and City side looks less than convincing.
For all the talk about them walking the league they look a shadow of a team from the beginning of the season.
Cant see them winning the title at all.
But lets be honest he has been poor and City side looks less than convincing.
For all the talk about them walking the league they look a shadow of a team from the beginning of the season.
Cant see them winning the title at all.
That just isn't true. If you include all the young players that he bought the figure is closer to £190m. Stones was bought to be his main ball playing defender, Gundogan and Bravo are also two nailed on starters. I'm sure that they hoped Sane would have played a bigger part too. Granted Nolito is a bit part player but these are all at least squad players and cost them £143.31m
Bravo and Nolito are probably mistakes (especially given that they are oldish and aren't getting any better), Gundogan was a risky transfer, it's too early to say about the rest. I think Sane is going to be very good within a year, he's got a huge potential. Same with Gabriel. They bought also a Columbian teenager who is loaned out. And Zinchenko (?) is on loan too. They've invested mostly in young players. Bravo, Nolito and Gundogan who were supposed to contribute immediately are disappointments though (albeit for different reasons), unlike Jose's signings.
Exactly, it's difficult to judge how to rank him based on his time in Barca and Bayern as opposed to Mourinho who has earned the right to be called the best in the world. I think it's brave of him to come to the PL when he knows it's gonna be a tough challenge, knowing he might get shown up. It hasn't looked great for him so far but people should give him more time before judging him.
But that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to criticise anything he does. One thing that's obvious is that his signings haven't been great at City. With that kind of money he could have bought established players like Mourinho did, although the talents could still come good.
Another thing is that his style doesn't seem to be right for this league. I have never liked the tiki taka style and I dont't think it's the most effective way to play, it's also boring to watch.
Last edited:
They bought a number of young prospects. I think they are going for the Chelsea Football Manager type model.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/transfers/verein/281
I am in no way downplaying Pep's ability which I meant as coaching, which he implement a playing style that combine the players he had to legendary status. As manager, I believe City is his real test as his squad is not clear cut above everyone else.
I don't believe Mourinho was being in better position. PL experience he had, but he was coming off a disaster half season, and was attention for football Einsteins to compare to Moyes first few games (SAF's legacy squad before fully Moyesified), while Pep had honeymoon period with media with them willing to give him the title back in September! Then LVG left a United that has style exact opposite of Mourinho's. Pellegrini's style was closer to Pep than LVG's to Mourinho. Then Mourinho had political issue at hand with Rooney while Pep as I said had his friend in director board to back him in Nasri, Hart case. In Rooney case he was English captain and as new English manager was newly appointed, the media was waiting for direction of the new regime so they can suck on too. It took sometimes for them to pick on Rooney and eased our cause to manage his game time better, and it cost us game like Watford.
Read the above for my perspective in comparing Mourinho to Pep.You've misinterpreted my post, and put words in my mouth. I didn't say a single thing about the squad being worse due to age. Just that both managers had spent similar amounts, United had a lot of potential but needed some experienced players to guide others (Ibra, Mhiki, Pogba is young but very experienced for his age, however as City had a high average, they needed to bring the age down a little, so with bringing in some young players the notion that Pep's transfers have been abysmal is stupid, as one can't expect youngsters to come in and perform to the same standard as fully fledged stars. Mourinho had a similar starting base, and yet Guardiola is ahead in the league. Yet somehow Guardiola is a fraud?
It has nothing to do with me 'following the media's ideal football trend'
You've ignored all my points and focused on something I didn't say...
I'm not sure what relevance this has to what I said?
With that in mind, while the bringing age down is good reason, but is fully overblown by media. They need to improve their defense. Pep as possession football philosopher who obsessed with midfielders, bought a ball player and lesser defender in Stones and that's it. Then mainly focus on other part of the squad which they can make do. And at time dropped Arguero for tactical reason: adding more midfielders and play with no real no 9. While replacing Hart is a must as Hart has not been good and far from ball playing GK. Buying Bravo is not exact the answer for bringing down squad age. Bravo is good ball playing GK, but as suspect in shot stopper and of course needing time to adapt to physicality of the PL when dealing aerial threat.
SAF's final title winning teams consist of Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Evra in their 30s with Fletcher, Scholes and Giggs still joined in from time to time. That one hell of the old squad just like the Milan. I mentioned the media trend regarding age because they had no problem with SAF did what he did with his squad, but started giving excuse about squad age for Moyes. Then keep going with similar narrative now for their new toy in Pep. With good management, nothing wrong with those old guard City has.
Even for midfield strengthening, Pep had fell short on strengthening the central area with Gundogan signing. Relying on Gundogan was never a bright idea given his previous injury record. Now it hits home, and Pep's back to square one. Other signings ended up competes with each other for game time. Compare to Mourinho's 4 signings who arguably first choices and improved the team, then Pep's signings can be viewed as underwhelming given similar figure spent.
Pep's City has recently hit inconsistent run after a quick starter while Mourinho's United started to click and pick up consistency so as mentioned by many in early stage of season, Christmas & New Year period is where to start judging teams. 3 point apart which was decided in the first half of Manchester derby, which lost due to quite some United players failed to perform. Had the derby playing during this period, United fan like us would be very confident that we can get result so theoretically there would be no 3 point gap.
I am not calling Pep's fraud so I can't answer for other. I am saying Pep not single handed build up a legendary team, which is another point why I said Pep ain't British style manager who oversees the transfer policy of the club. Barcelona & Bayern had people who work on transfer from academy to first team. So Pep may not sign some of those players by himself and they're club signings. I would be very skeptical to give him full credit for transfer at Barcelona or Bayern.
Last edited:
I agree, I think Mourinho inherited a much bigger mess than Pep did, even though we finished so close to them. We have steadily improved under Mourinho compared to City who started great and then declined. We have also constantly been on the wrong end of ref decisions while they were often being bailed out by penalties earlier in the season.
Last edited:
Like I said, if he doesn't need English players, he would have bought someone from overseas. He is looking at Badstuber right now, because there is space in the squad. He only needs to deregister Gundogan to make space for Badstuber.
Let's say he was looking to reinforce with a center defender, a midfielder and a forward during the beginning of the season, there were very few young and upcoming English players in any of these 3 positions, except for John Stones. If he didn't get John Stones, he would still need a home grown player.
I have to add on that Pep would not have been Pep if not for La Masia. Bayern has also one of the strongest youth academies in Germany.
I do agree that everyone has to give the entire Barcelona credit for building up a strong academy and a strong first team, not just Pep.
Top post! The Barca side under Pep made arguably our best team ever (minus Ronaldo) look shoddy in that final. So much so that Fergie publicly accepted that we needed to move up another level. Don't see how Pep's impact could have been negligible
Yeah, the same eto'o who went on to win the cl the following year. What a decision that was by pep
I think Zlatan is more a club signing than Pep's own pick. Zlatan was their answer policy to Perez's Galaticos 2.0. As I mentioned in other post Barcelona has people who oversee transfer. At best, Pep with his friend in director is only influential factor than deciding factor.
Yeah well Eto'o himself says it, right. His relationship with Pep was not great. I mean, Eto'o could lie, but somehow, I think it was real, Pep did have a "problem" with Eto'o and he preferred to ship him out.
Well the 2009 cl title was a bit lucky wasn't it?
That game in the semis at The Bridge was well not to say to much a disgrace....
He is at City.... That hasnt really worked all that well..
As funny as it is to see City outside the CL spots, truth is he's only been there five minutes and he's inherited a crap defence. Hopefully he will continue to struggle but at the moment it's too early to tell