The myth that RVN leaving improved us.

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Always gets repeated, never considers the other factors like Ronaldo's improvement into one of the World's greatest players and the FIVE others strengthened positions from the previous season.

It's frustrating to read, RVN was a great player for us, and would have been a sensation himself in 2006-07 had he stayed and played with that much improved team. Look at the two teams based on number of appearances from those two seasons, is one not just "slightly" better than the other?

Still not 100% convinced? Well Saha played only 18 league games, and think back to our most incredible performance that following season, the 7-1 versus Roma and remember that Alan Smith lead the line that night.

I'll concede that RVN leaving left a void that Ronaldo filled, but no-one will convince me that Ronaldo wasn't turning into one the greats with or without RVN.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Great thread idea! You make some interesting points. Ruud went on (if I remember rightly) to have a couple good seasons with Real, unless I am mistaken? So it's not like he had lost it completely. I was under the impression Ronaldo and Ruud did not get along at all, as Ronaldo was less likely to cross the ball than Beckham, so you'd have to say Ruud's goal average might have suffered, maybe they are just two players you could not accommodate at the same time?

I do agree the 06/07 side is so much better than the previous one, Scholes and Carrick in midfield gave the solidity and domination for Ronaldo and Rooney to shine.

The 06/07 side was way more direct and counter attacking (The goal against Bolton comes to mind, with Rooney and Ronaldo's one two's.) not sure how Ruud would have fit into that style of play.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The 06/07 side was way more direct and counter attacking (The goal against Bolton comes to mind, with Rooney and Ronaldo's one two's.) not sure how Ruud would have fit into that style of play.

Cheers

Well both Larsson & Smith played in that fast counter attacking system and it still looked good, never better than that night versus Roma with Smudge up top.

Ruud would have been fine imo, he went to Madrid, won 2 la ligas and won both the Pichichi award in his first season. The addition of Carrick and return of Scholes after the blurred vision were massive, as were the Vidic and Evra signings.

 

[Dante]

Saha's movement did improve us. Without it, Ronaldo wouldn't have had the space to improve as he did.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Saha's movement did improve us. Without it, Ronaldo wouldn't have had the space to improve as he did.

Saha only played 18 league games that season. Ronaldo was improving year on year, that much was clear as day.

And it didn't matter if it was Saha, Larsson or Alan Smith up front that season, Ronaldo was equally as good.

 

[Manny]

We wouldn't have played that fast, dynamic football with RvN as the focal point.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We wouldn't have played that fast, dynamic football with RvN as the focal point.

Yet we did with Alan Smith and Henrik Larsson?

RvN was faster than both and was involved in some super counter attacking goals for Madrid the following season.

 

[Mike09]

Cheers

Well both Larsson & Smith played in that fast counter attacking system and it still looked good, never better than that night versus Roma with Smudge up top.

Ruud would have been fine imo, he went to Madrid, won 2 la ligas and won both the Pichichi award in his first season. The addition of Carrick and return of Scholes after the blurred vision were massive, as were the Vidic and Evra signings.

I didn't think Smith played like that. He lost it in that season ever since he got that injury. He looked very mediocre in 2007, no stamina, first touch was poor and no ball control. His 2006/2007 won't even start ahead of current Lingard upfront. I think it was all about Saha, Rooney and Ronaldo. With player like Giggs, Carrick and Scholes too. And also solid defense. Our XI was class.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I didn't think Smith played like that. He lost it in that season ever since he got that injury. He looked very mediocre in 2007, no stamina, first touch was poor and no ball control. His 2006/2007 won't even start ahead of current Lingard upfront. I think it was all about Saha, Rooney and Ronaldo. With player like Giggs, Carrick and Scholes too. And also solid defense. Our XI was class.

Smith lead the line against Roma in the 7-1 @Mike09, that was my point.

Shitty fecked Alan Smith and we could still play like that because having an ever-maturing Rooney, Ronaldo and a midfield of Scholes and Carrick (rather than Fletcher/Smith which Ruud had to deal with), well... it helps.

 

[Jaybomb]

We would have been just as good, if not even better if Ruud stayed on for a few more seasons.

There's no proof to suggest otherwise.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Does off the field bad influence count? it could have helped morale getting shot of him, apparently he was acting a tool and wanted to leave long before Fergie finally gave him the boot.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There's no proof to suggest otherwise.

The proof for many is simply that we were a better side, faster in thought, speedier and more entertaining. But that completely ignores the other massive improvements in the starting eleven.

Would have loved to see Ruud in that side, people got giddy about bloody Henke Larsson, Ruud in there would have been awesome.

 

[gormless]

Ruud as much as I loved him was extremely moody towards the end. It's well documented the effect he had on around Ronaldo in his last season. Impossible to say for sure but there has been talk of him inhibiting Ronaldo and other younger players through his moodiness

 

[Manny]

Yet we did with Alan Smith and Henrik Larsson?

RvN was faster than both and was involved in some super counter attacking goals for Madrid the following season.

Neither Smith or Larsson played that much that season. Larsson was only here from mid January to March and Smith was a surprise #9 in the Roma 7-1 game, iirc.

That season was mostly Saha and Rooney playing #9, occasionally Solskjaer. Plus appearances from Smith and Larsson. Smith's appearances would also have been playing in midfield and wide right

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Does off the field bad influence count?.

Absolutely and by all accounts it was the right thing to do from SAF.

Ruud had just gotten too frustrated scoring shit loads of goals but playing with sub-standard players and winning very little.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Neither Smith or Larsson played that much that season. Larsson was only here from mid January to March and Smith was a surprise starter in the Roma 7-1 game, iirc.

That season was mostly Saha and Rooney playing #9, occasionally Solskjaer. Plus appearances from Smith and Larsson.

Your point?

My point is that Saha only played 18 league games and we played equally awesome with or without him. Saha was a very good player, but he was only a very small part of the reason for the improvement.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ruud as much as I loved him was extremely moody towards the end. It's well documented the effect he had on around Ronaldo in his last season. Impossible to say for sure but there has been talk of him inhibiting Ronaldo and other younger players through his moodiness

He had a right to be angry imo @gormless, he was scoring a ridiculous amount of goals but won hardly anything due to the pretty shit United sides he was part of

 

[Manny]

Your point?

My point is that Saha only played 18 leage games and we played equally awesome with or without him.

You are saying we played the 'slower' Smith and Larsson and still played fast and dynamic football.

Truth is, Saha and Rooney made up the bulk of the #9 appearances, along with Solskjaer. Smith played against smaller teams and Larson wasn't here that long.

 

[Dante]

Saha only played 18 league games that season. Ronaldo was improving year on year, that much was clear as day.

And it didn't matter if it was Saha, Larsson or Alan Smith up front that season, Ronaldo was equally as good.

Nah. He was better behind Saha. Even better behind Tevez. Then worse behind Berbatov. And in recent years he's been great behind Benzema.

The mobility of the CF he's played with has had a huge influence on how he's performed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You are saying we played the 'slower' Smith and Larsson and still played fast and dynamic football.

You're making an odd point @MannyB

If we played fast dynamic football because of Saha, why was it still fast and dynamic when Saha was out of the side and was replaced by Larsson, Smith or Solksjaer?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Nah. He was better behind Saha.

How many times did he ever even play behind Saha for this conclusion? would love to know.

 

[Dante]

How many times did he ever even play behind Saha for this conclusion? would love to know.

More times than he played behind Ruud, which is the point of the thread.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

More times than he played behind Ruud, which is the point of the thread.

It really isn't the point of the thread to find out how often he played with both players.

 

[Dante]

It really isn't the point of the thread to find out how often he played with both players.

The thread is about Ruud, not Saha. The only thing to consider is the improvement in the mobility of the striker.

 

[Eckers99]

I thought we were much more fluid up front when Ruud left - a bit less predictable. No disrespect to Ruud, he was a lethal centre forward, but he looked pretty leaden and half-arsed towards the end and clearly didn't have the patience to wait for Ronaldo and Rooney to blossom. Bit like when Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis left and the kids revitalised us imo.

 

[Beachryan]

Ruud was the best out and out 10 we've had in the last 25 years.

He scored 40 goals a season when surrounded by quality. Then Fergie got complacent and had a midfield of O'Shea and Giggs (choosing to repress Djemba squared and Miller).

Not a popular opinion, but genuinely believe Fergie got a bit lucky with just how good Ronnie became. Ruud could definitely have been an asset for another 2 seasons.

 

[Son Of Sam]

Ruud was a fox in the box - an elite goal sniffer. I was extremely sad when he left. The single most important fact was that United were heading in the right direction just before Ruud left.

The transfer business that got Carrick, Evra & Vidic into the club played a major factor in getting us back to winning ways. Whether Ruud left or not, United would still have won the league in 06/07.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The thread is about Ruud, not Saha. The only thing to consider is the improvement in the mobility of the striker.

Strange that Ronaldo seem most prolific that next season when paired with another striker then @Dante

9 in 21 playing with Saha.

17 in 30 playing with Solksjaer, Smith, Larsson etc.

 

[Turkleton]

Are you sure about that line up for the 05/06 season? Going by Wikipedia, there's a few errors in your selection of players with most games played.

It's also unfair to keep using the 7-1 result as an example when it was clearly an exceptional result.

 

[TheCorkman]

I thought we were much more fluid up front when Ruud left - a bit less predictable. No disrespect to Ruud, he was a lethal centre forward, but he looked pretty leaden and half-arsed towards the end and clearly didn't have the patience to wait for Ronaldo and Rooney to blossom. Bit like when Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis left and the kids revitalised us imo.

To be fair, almost all of our creativity came directly from Ronaldo. Compared to the pure goal poacher he has been recently, it might be a bit strange to think of him at United when he an incredible dribbler and passer. Also Scholes returning and Giggs having another renaissance helped our attacking play immensely. Obviously Pat was far far better than Sheasy or Heinze at attacking the left wing as well.

Ruud wasn't just a 6 yard box player like Inzaghi, he had a brilliant touch and an all round intelligent player. Just because he was lanky and awkward looking doesn't mean he was a slouch either. I do agree with the half arsed....but think that was just due to the falling out with Ferguson. If he got the kick up the arse and upped his work rate he still would have been great - as he showed with Real. All in all, it was a pity we didn't get to see prime Ronaldo, Rooney and Ruud in the same side.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Are you sure about that line up for the 05/06 season? Going by Wikipedia, there's a few errors in your selection of players with most games played.

Sure about that? I took league apps. So who?

Silvestre looks a big miss at CB right?

It's also unfair to keep using the 7-1 result as an example when it was clearly an exceptional result.

Ok, Tottenham 0 - 4 United.

Better? There were plenty of good performances with strikers other than Saha that next season. We were just a miles better team all round.

 

[#07]

I'm not sure Ronaldo would have developed as rapidly as he did with Ruud in the squad after 2006.

Ruud was a brilliant goalscorer, and if we had someone as consistent in the current team we'd be on route to the title. His style clashed with Ronaldo's though. Ruud knew what he was good at and felt justified in demanding the team play to his strengths: He wanted the ball put into areas he could score from, early and often. Ronaldo was never one to do that. He was a dribbler, he liked to run with the ball, he liked to take on responsibility for games himself. He could never simply be a provider for someone else.

When Ruud left it led to a shift in the way we played. Ronaldo became the focal point of the side and the team changed its ways to suit him. That would have been impossible with Ruud still around. You can't have two lead singers. Ruud and Ronaldo would've struggled for the mic in a way, for various reasons, that couldn't have happened with Larsson, Saha and Smudge. It had already started happening in 2005/06. Ruud could've been a backing singer for Ronaldo but he wasn't ready to take on that role.

 

[Manny]

You're making an odd point @MannyB

If we played fast dynamic football because of Saha, why was it still fast and dynamic when Saha was out of the side and was replaced by Larsson, Smith or Solksjaer?

There was no noticeable drop off when Saha was out because Rooney covered for him at #9. Then Solskjaer and Larson while he was here.

Saha started 25 games. Larsson, was only here for a couple of months and made 10 starts. Smith had 11 starts. Smith played against weaker opposition and he also played games in midfield and wide right.

The argument is flawed because you are presuming Larson and Smith were slower, at least noticeably, and that they played all of games at #9 whilst Saha was out. They didn't. Larson had a little run there but Solskjaer's and Smith's fixtures were carefully selected.

 

[Dante]

Strange that Ronaldo seem most prolific that next season when paired with another striker then @Dante

9 in 21 playing with Saha.

17 in 30 playing with Solksjaer, Smith, Larsson etc.

None of them are RvN.

Is thread about Ruud leaving or just dumping on Saha?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

None of them are RvN.

Is thread about Ruud leaving or just dumping on Saha?

Dumping on Ruud judging by your posts.

Saha was class, nothing compared to Ruud though of course. None of the 3 mentioned are super mobile strikers as you mention though, and should prove that Ronaldo had just clicked, it didn't matter who he played with, he'd have been equally good with RVN.

 

[Turkleton]

Sure about that? I took league apps. So who?

Silvestre looks a big miss at CB right?

Scholes played more than Smith. Park might have played one game more than Giggs but almost half his appearances were as a sub and Giggs played more in all competitions. The team looks a lot different when you put them in.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Scholes played more than Smith. Park might have played one game more than Giggs but almost half his appearances were as a sub and Giggs played more in all competitions. The team looks a lot different when you put them in.

HUGE difference if you see how many games the 2 of them played the next season though right?

Giggs 25 - Park 8
Scholes 29 - Smith 6

Compared to RVN season:
Giggs 22 - Park 23
Scholes 18 - Smith 15

All of the lesser players played much much less that following season. RVN suffered during a large part of his spell here with a sub standard side.

 

[Beachryan]

Imo it will always be a mistake - Ruud was simply better than the players that 'replaced' him.

He was also a huge United fan, and if Fergie would have tried I'm 100% sure he could have gotten the team to work function with Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo together. Rooney for what it's worth seemed to love playing with Ruud...that goal against Charlton being my fav of that era.

 

[Dante]

Dumping on Ruud judging by your posts.

Saha was class, nothing compared to Ruud though of course. None of the 3 mentioned are super mobile strikers as you mention though, and should prove that Ronaldo had just clicked, it didn't matter who he played with, he'd have been equally good with RVN.

Don't make shit up. You're having a 'mare in this thread.

Ruud was my favourite player of all time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Imo it will always be a mistake - Ruud was simply better than the players that 'replaced' him.

He was also a huge United fan, and if Fergie would have tried I'm 100% sure he could have gotten the team to work function with Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo together. Rooney for what it's worth seemed to love playing with Ruud...that goal against Charlton being my fav of that era.

Spoiler: Rude not to....