Ok, yeah. Agreed. Our defence deserve more credit than they get for that improvement.
The myth that RVN leaving improved us.
- Thread starter Regulus Arcturus Black
- Start date
If you look at the difference in quality between the two squads as per the OP's note then there's no almost denying an in-form RVN could in theory have had a phenomenal season or two. It's not like the guy was a selfish player and held the team back with his style of play.
As other posters have mentioned, the myth about his lack of speed is false too. Yes, he didn't have the pace of Henry, but he wasn't a Zlatan either, hence he could have easily played in a team that like to hit with pace on the break.
We'll never know but I'd break my own leg to have a player like him in our XI now though!
As other posters have mentioned, the myth about his lack of speed is false too. Yes, he didn't have the pace of Henry, but he wasn't a Zlatan either, hence he could have easily played in a team that like to hit with pace on the break.
We'll never know but I'd break my own leg to have a player like him in our XI now though!
A lot of posters have claimed that Ruud leaving was the thing that allowed Ronaldo to flourish. Imo he was turning into a great player year and year, his improvement was going to happen with or without Ruud.
Aye, Evra was a significent part of the improvement in our all round play. And having a base as solid as Rio and Vidic was something special.
Carrick shouldn't be ignored either, what signing he was looking back.
I'd be interested to see the posts that claim Ronaldo wouldn't have become a great had Ruud stayed.
Saying Ronaldo played better with a fast, mobile striker is a world away from that.
Everything worked out from 2006-07 after a few difficult years. Hell, even a few months before the season we had Blackburn away and played with Rio-Rooney in midfield, most of the time at the end of the 05-06 we had O'Shea-Giggs in midfield. Scholes was injured for 6 months, we had no Carrick, Vidic and Evra both poor, Edwin was ok but even better the season after. Ronaldo three times better, Saha was fit until january and it was no problems at all and we got the great start and didn't have to chase Chelsea from september.
Everything went through Ruud. With him gone it forced everyone to elevate their game which they did.
Saha at that point in time was easily a better fit for the side. His hold up play and runs were excellent and was able to link with our other attackers through this. RVN lost his place to Saha in the second half of 05/06 and our improvement was clear as day so it happened before the 06/07 season.
Saha at that point in time was easily a better fit for the side. His hold up play and runs were excellent and was able to link with our other attackers through this. RVN lost his place to Saha in the second half of 05/06 and our improvement was clear as day so it happened before the 06/07 season.
Ruud used to give Ronaldo a bollocking everytime he went himself and didn't pass when Ruus was in a great position so yeah Ronaldo had far more freedom to express himself when Ruud left. Fergie knew this had to happen to get the best out of Ronaldo. Ronaldo would have still become the same player but his progress and development might have been stunted by a season or so had Ruud stayed
100% correct. Fergie knew Ruud had to go for the team to get better.
I mean he sold RVN and didn't sign a striker to replace him. That says it all doesn't it.
Pretty much. Not sure why this is being ignored. Even with Oshea and Giggs as a midfield duo we looked a lot better with Saha.
No one has actually said Ruud being sold is the sole reason we did well the following season.
Also... for the posters claiming SAF foresaw this, come on, he made it quite clear that he did not want to lose RVN, but Ruud had gotten fed up of playing with shite teams and asked for a transfer. The season before he left Ruud looked more frustrated than ever with the shiteness of the team and it affected his game.
SAF didn't foresee anything, he just had no real choice when it came to moving RVN on.
SAF didn't foresee anything, he just had no real choice when it came to moving RVN on.
Had a lot to do with RVN's attitude that season though didn't it? As SAF himself has said, Ruud had asked to leave the previous Summer because of his frustration, and that frustration was clear as day to all, it affected his game.
Proof from United players that Ruud could not play in a team with Ronaldo.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...do-was-reduced-to-tears-by-sir-alex-ferguson/
Fergie always knew that Ronaldo was special.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...do-was-reduced-to-tears-by-sir-alex-ferguson/
Fergie always knew that Ronaldo was special.
Rooney and particularly Ronaldo developed into top players. I have a feeling that Rooney would've flourished more playing behind Ruud but Ronaldo it's hard to tell. Also the impending massive success of Carrick, Vidic and Evra helped no end. Even with hindsight it's a tough call to make whether Ruud leaving was a catalyst or if we'd have been even more successful with him still in the side.
As is wont these days Rooney's importance in that period is seriously underrated. He was the perfect foil for Ronaldo and in many ways would've been the same for Ruud considering his future partnership with Hernandez. However perhaps Ruud not leaving would've somewhat stunted Ronaldo when he clearly had the quality to surpass all the others on the team.
As is wont these days Rooney's importance in that period is seriously underrated. He was the perfect foil for Ronaldo and in many ways would've been the same for Ruud considering his future partnership with Hernandez. However perhaps Ruud not leaving would've somewhat stunted Ronaldo when he clearly had the quality to surpass all the others on the team.
RVN was great for us until 05/06 but I wasn't that bothered when he left because of how much better we looked without him by the end of that season. Saha was excellent when fit.
Can't help but feel this is an Ibra thread in disguise.
Based on the OP mentioning how our improvement was due mainly to buying Carrick, Evra, Vidic and the improvements of Rooney and Ronaldo.
Erm... ok.
His time here is judged harshly because it coincided with a period of transition. Ronaldo and Rooney were our most talented players at that time (at least, from 04-06). Yet, neither was consistent enough to spearhead a title winning campaign, despite both being evidently far too talented to relegate to the margins. Keane was also coming to an end, Arsenal were in their "Invincibles" period, and Mourinho's first Chelsea (one of the best teams in the history of the Premier League), was completely dominant.
That we didn't win enough during that period was in spite of Ruud, not because of him. He'd easily score 50+ goals a season in the team we have now.
Even the team he first arrived in, the 02 team, was one of transition, a transition not complete until 06/07. Beckham and co were on the wane.
That we didn't win enough during that period was in spite of Ruud, not because of him. He'd easily score 50+ goals a season in the team we have now.
Even the team he first arrived in, the 02 team, was one of transition, a transition not complete until 06/07. Beckham and co were on the wane.
You're a huge Ibra fan and the comparison between Ibra and Ruud's last season has been made over and over.Based on the OP mentioning how our improvement was due mainly to buying Carrick, Evra, Vidic and the improvements of Rooney and Ronaldo.
Erm... ok.
In arguing Ruud wasn't holding the team back I think you're also making the same point about Ibra.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. And I maintain that a fully focused RVN in the following seasons side would have been a revelation.
You're having a nightmare here pal.
Not least the fact that RVN and Zlatan are not at all alike. Now stop taking the thread off track about some bizarre "conspiracy" that's popped up into your head this morning.
He had everything you'd want of a striker. His hold up play was very good, and he's still the most "natural" finisher inside the box I've seen in my lifetime. A pure goalscorer, but not one with a limited game.
And he's bizarrely tarnished with being slow, a la Zlatan, which I can only assume is due to him playing in the same league as Henry. Ruud was absolutely no slouch and was involved in plenty of great counter attacking goals in his career.
Are you discounting the fact that Ruud himself declared that he couldn't play with Ronaldo and that Fergie had decided himself that Ruud was counter productive to the team?
Ruud was very quick, though not rapid like Henry. Anyone who watched him play would find it impossible to call him slow.
Indeed, and the first part of this video involved some great team goals, probably due to the fact that we had a great team then. The following years though were pretty shocking:
Ruud could play just fine with Ronaldo, but footballers are petulant and hearing second hand that a top striker said in training "I can't play with this guy" is something I'd expect happens all over the World, often.
SAF absolutely did not want Ruud to leave, but was left with no choice after his transfer request, disinterest, and 2nd transfer request.
Since Saha's come up in this debate a lot, what are the stats with/without him in the side?
Ruud said himself that Fergie supported other players (Ronaldo) over him and after Ruud's training pitch meltdown where he complained about Ronaldo and swung a punch at Rio he never played for United again. I would say that Fergie allowed Ruud to hand in that transfer request as a PR move with the fans. Many didn't understand why we dumped Ruud at that time, all was made clear in the first game of the next season, however, when we looked free flowing and sensational, it was a breath of fresh air. I remember it well.
Hardly a conspiracy. You've already made this point in the various Zlatan threads.
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This.
Again, no one here has said either Ruud or Ibra were bad players. Very much the opposite. But the term, "There is no I in team", pops up.
Isn't that the crux of the problem though. Ruud's head had been turned, he wasn't happy or fully focused. The move to Madrid reinvigorated him and he appeared infinitely more dynamic than he had in his final season here.
I agree that the narrative is overplayed and is a somewhat facile summation of a transitional period in the team but Ruud leaving did appear to give the room in to which the likes of Ronaldo blossomed (the less sexy contributions of Evra, Vidic and Carrick fade somewhat in to the background when set against the dramatic departure of the star striker).
Theoretically we could have played fantastic football with Ruud, Ronaldo and Rooney but the reality is that Ruud's attitude proved to be a stumbling block to realising that dream.
At his best Ruud would have been an asset to any team, sadly his best came at a time when United were underwhelming and he had given up hope/patience by the time we started to come good. United missed the boat in cashing in on the full potential of Ruud, Ruud missed the boat with cashing in on the full potential of United. C'est la vie.
I think the only one having a nightmare is you pal. You've come onto a thread on the back of some kind of perceived insult where only a few if any people have stated that selling Ruud was the only reason we did well. You then presumably go on to wiki, look at some stats and post a lineup of 2005-06 season devoid of any kind of context. You even get the stats wrong and then bang on about Smith and Larsson and keep arguing against something no one has ever said in this thread.
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Still interested to see the posts that argued Ronaldo wouldn't have become a great had Ruud stayed.
Have to agree with everything you just posted here. No one said Ruud leaving was the sole reason for our improvement. I was stating that our attack was a lot more fluid.
I've heard this loads of times over the years and I'm sure you have too @Akash, that "we improved as a team once Ruud left". That is my only gripe, it suggests that Ruud leaving was the major factor, I don't believe it was the major factor at all.
In fact, I started this thread after reading the following post:
"RVN leaving was a huge factor in the change of our play and eventual titles that came. 06/07 is one of our best seasons entertainment wise."
If that's me "having a nightmare", fair enough.
Changing your argument here it seems. Your only gripe wasn't Ruud being described as the major factor. You argued Ruud leaving had nothing at all to do with the upturn in our football. Or so it read anyway.
No I didn't, in fact, just read my reply posted to Pogue earlier. I even conceded in my OP that Ruud left a void, and Ronaldo filled that void.
Ruud leaving could absolutely have had an affect, especially considering his attitude in that last season. However I state clearly in the OP my thoughts on the true reasons for our massive improvement.
So just to clarify you think Ruud leaving played at least some part in the improvement of our football?
It's not clear where you stand because some of your posts seem to contradict each other.