The myth that RVN leaving improved us.

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So just to clarify you think Ruud leaving played at least some part in the improvement of our football?
No, I personally think a fit, firing, motivated Ruud in the 2006-07 side could have been a revelation, because that side just functioned, be it with Saha, Smith, Ole or Larsson. But when a player leaves and a team improves, an argument can always be made on either side.

Claiming however that one player leaving enabled us to play better, faster, more dynamic football whilst ignoring the return of Scholes and the signing of Vidic, Evra & Carrick is more than a bit off.
 

Nighteyes

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Claiming however that one player leaving enabled us to play better, faster, more dynamic football whilst ignoring the return of Scholes and the signing of Vidic, Evra & Carrick is more than a bit off.
Except we played better football when RVN was dropped in the very same season with a midfield of Giggs or Oshea. Why are you ignoring this? Do you think Fergie decided not to replace Ruud for the lols?
 

Dobbs

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You argued Ruud leaving had nothing at all to do with the upturn in our football.
No I didn't, in fact, just read my reply posted to Pogue earlier. I even conceded in my OP that Ruud left a void, and Ronaldo filled that void.

Ruud leaving could absolutely have had an affect, especially considering his attitude in that last season.
So just to clarify you think Ruud leaving played at least some part in the improvement of our football?
No, I personally think a fit, firing, motivated Ruud in the 2006-07 side could have been a revelation.
Haha I'm still no over to where you stand. Did Ruud leaving play a part in us improving. Seems like a simple question to me. You're answering yes and no it seems.
 

MullerUtd

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What I'd give to have a prime Ruud in our current team now. :( he is the best no 9 striker we have and his ability to score goals from anywhere in the box is just amazing.
 

Man-United

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That was due to his repeated transfer requests and unmotivated/frustrated performances.
The team played fine with Ruud as well part of that season. We got this huge boost by winning the League Cup in february 2006, first trophy for many of the players and after that the club was back at the top until 2013 after three difficult years.
 

Dobbs

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Strawman alert
Eh? It's the crux of the thread.

On the issue of Ruud leaving you've said it helped and didn't help our football. I've just demonstrated it with those few posts I quoted. It can't be both.

I give up trying to make sense of this.
 
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Eh? It's the crux of the thread.

On the issue of Ruud leaving you've said it helped and didn't help our football. I've just demonstrated it with those few posts I quoted. It can't be both.

I give up trying to make sense of this.
You're making a strawman Dobbs.

My position is clear in the OP, I think the signings and return of Scholes, added to the improvement of Rooney & Ronaldo were by far the main factor in our improvement. This line of thinking is bolsted by the fact that we played equally as fast and dynamic with Smith, Ole or Larsson leading the line the following season.

But if a player leaves and a team improves, you can always make an argument that that was also part of it. Something I disagree with though, Ruud would have been awesome in a Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Ronaldo god & Rooney demi-god team.
 

Stadjer

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I love RVN. He is the reason i started to follow Manchester United.

He was a great player and him leaving didnt inprove us. A worldclass striker leaving never improves a team. When he left for Madrid they finally became champion of Spain after a long time if i remember correctly and he became topscorer too.

Wish we had prime Ruud right now.. look how many chances our attackers missed this season. Ruud would be on 40+ goals right now.
 

Dobbs

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You're making a strawman Dobbs.

My position is clear in the OP, I think the signings and return of Scholes, added to the improvement of Rooney & Ronaldo were by far the main factor in our improvement. This line of thinking is bolsted by the fact that we played equally as fast and dynamic with Smith, Ole or Larsson leading the line the following season.

But if a player leaves and a team improves, you can always make an argument that that was also part of it. Something I disagree with though, Ruud would have been awesome in a Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Ronaldo god & Rooney demi-god team.
So one last go, you think Ruud leaving played no part at all in the teams improvement?
 

Chorley1974

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Saha's movement did improve us. Without it, Ronaldo wouldn't have had the space to improve as he did.
Saha was fantastic when he did play, his mobility v RVN was without doubt, unfortunately he was injured too much.
 

jetlee

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I can only assume people didn't watch the 05/06 or don't remember it. People demanding proof should probably go back and rewatch our games after the cup final that season. The lineups in the OP are bs and doesn't tell the whole story. RVN was sidelined for most of the 2nd half of the season (after the league cup final) and the progression from RVN to Saha started then and not just the following season.

While the results were still patchy, the football we played with Saha was so much better. In fact, our finish to the season is what allowed some of us to go into the new season with a little optimism.

This is not to say RVN was single handedly holding us back. The progression of Rooney and Ronaldo into brilliant players as well as the signing of Carrick played their part.
I just came here to post exactly this. Here lies the most important evidence, yet with all those replies OP have failed to address this one.
 

lsd

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Not really sure what the point of this thread is ..I know some Ruud fans resented Saha taking Ruuds place to the point where he was getting booed early on even though he was scoring.

Would we have been as good with Ruud ? Hard to say i doubt we would have been as quick and flexible attacking wise .. The only thing that really matters is we were better when he left and we won a lot more trophies .

That maybe down to Ruud leaving it may just be coincidence ..I don't really care im just glad we won and we were amazing to watch
 

lsd

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Imo it will always be a mistake - Ruud was simply better than the players that 'replaced' him.

He was also a huge United fan, and if Fergie would have tried I'm 100% sure he could have gotten the team to work function with Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo together. Rooney for what it's worth seemed to love playing with Ruud...that goal against Charlton being my fav of that era.

Rooney has said Saha was his favourite striker he played with
 

alanjohnson

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how did you all feel when he was sold? you felt crap right? With all the doubt surrounding the club, we thought we'd struggle to win the league title again.
Him leaving and us improving was just one of those things that pretty much cemented Fergie's place as the Godfather of football. It's part of the magic of the club that we can let go of players like that and still improve.
 

Ixion

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Didn't bother me at all when he left, I was excited by the possibilities of seeing a new attacking line-up.
 

2cents

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Ruud involved in a nice counter-attack towards the end of 05/06, the type of goal that became our trademark in the following seasons. Doubt he'd have had much trouble playing his part, his attitude was the problem:

 

Minimalist

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The 2006/07 season is my favourite season watching United in my life time. Ruud had to go regardless and that's all there is to it. He got on the wrong side of Ferguson and he was never going to stay after that.

Ruud left and had a great time in Madrid (generally) - even scored much better goals than I had seen with us.

Ruud leaving simply opened a massive gap in our front line that Rooney, Saha and Ronaldo grew into nicely.
 

Ecstatic

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Do you think I should create threads like 'The myth that Bobby Charlton/Best/Law/Cantona/Cristiano leaving improved us'? :devil:

On a more serious note, a United fan hasn't the right to lose hope in the future given the financial strength of the club.
 

Andersons Dietician

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Saha only played 18 league games that season. Ronaldo was improving year on year, that much was clear as day.

And it didn't matter if it was Saha, Larsson or Alan Smith up front that season, Ronaldo was equally as good.
A thing you seem to be missing is Smith, Larson, Saha worked the channels. RVN did not. That is the difference people talk about and why people compare the situation to Zlatan as he does not run the channels.

You're it seems missing the point of the argument when people say this to you.
 

RedStarUnited

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The OPs only reference is "but Smith started in the 7-1 game". So that one perfomance tells you enough about how we would have been without Ruud.

Like its already been said, Ruud was done for us before 06/07 even started. Add in the fact that Ruud didnt get on with the guy who would go on to become the worlds best player, I think selling him did improve us.
 

Cheesy

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The OPs only reference is "but Smith started in the 7-1 game". So that one perfomance tells you enough about how we would have been without Ruud.

Like its already been said, Ruud was done for us before 06/07 even started. Add in the fact that Ruud didnt get on with the guy who would go on to become the worlds best player, I think selling him did improve us.
Obviously it doesn't tell us everything about how we'd have done, but he does make a fair point that Saha missed parts of that season and we were still fine without him.

Still, @Andersons Dietician made a fair point above about the workrates of Smith and Larsson. The latter of the two was old but was always a fantastic team player at his best - RVN was always a lot more predatory and liked to lurk around in the box, but again there's an example above of what he could sometimes do when he ventured further back.
 

breakout67

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RVN leaving us improved the team; because the game was evolving away from goal poachers, dedicated number 10s were a dying breed, players are expected to do a lot more and be able to interchange with players within their area. RVN leaving was important for our transition into a post 4-4-2 Manchester United.

Players like Rooney and Ibrahimovic are striker-10 hybrids, players like Mandzukic and Cavani are striker-winger hybrids, Ronaldo and Messi can play anywhere along the front line (Messi can also play as a legitimate world class midfielder).

Footballing talent is becoming better and better; many players in the 18-25 age bracket have competency in multiple positions. Paul Pogba is a perfect example, he has all the attributes to be a box-box midfielder, deep lying playmaker and creative midfielder, the only thing he can't do is be a defensive midfielder.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Always gets repeated, never considers the other factors like Ronaldo's improvement into one of the World's greatest players and the FIVE others strengthened positions from the previous season.

It's frustrating to read, RVN was a great player for us, and would have been a sensation himself in 2006-07 had he stayed and played with that much improved team. Look at the two teams based on number of appearances from those two seasons, is one not just "slightly" better than the other?



Still not 100% convinced? Well Saha played only 18 league games, and think back to our most incredible performance that following season, the 7-1 versus Roma and remember that Alan Smith lead the line that night.

I'll concede that RVN leaving left a void that Ronaldo filled, but no-one will convince me that Ronaldo wasn't turning into one the greats with or without RVN.
Great thread and good points.

RVN carried us in his final season and previous too actually with his goals. True there are limitations and we play better with Saha leading the line, but putting all the blame on RVN and stating his leavings improved us is kinda stretching it too far.

Looking at the overall line-ups and squads, we have to consider a lot of different factors that lead to our superb improvements that season. I would too argue if RVN stays, we would even have better input of goals and performances. He is that capable to play exciting football actually, but the atmosphere factor could also play a part. His leavings have to do with a lot of falling outs isn't it, plus his attitude too I guess can be disrupting.

So, him staying would need a serious tasks for Ruud himself to be against his ego to accept his new roles of no longer being the permanent first name on the starting line-up, to reconcile with SAF and at least get a common professional working ground with the other players especially Ronaldo. Looking at it again, him leaving is the only logical conclusion, since RVN refused to back down and does considering leaving. SAF could try to convince him otherwise, but a lot of reports then seem to indicate RVN challenging the boss's authority or something.

Anyway, the myth is improper and misleading. That's the problem I believe, how we use and explain it can be offensive and unappreciative. Like many myths too, it doesn't tell the whole story. It's very simplistic.

Instead the real factors can be attributed to:
1) Ronaldo's stark high improvements, total changes to his playstyles and approach of play becoming more team-oriented and hence more efficient.
2) Saha leading the line helps open-up a lot of attacking channel variations, during the first half of the season.
3) Rooney's maturity and professionalism. The World Cup incident.
4) Scholes returning, playing more frequently. A very big key factor here. No need for me to explain.
5) Carrick. For once, we have two proper centre midfielders.
6) Vidic's emergence. Stimulating effects imo to the whole teams. Feelings of domination and confidence.
7) Evra's attacking prowess. Helps a lot in attacks.
8) SAF back to his best - making bold but right decisions, and receiving the rewards plenty.
9) Overall team chemistry improvements. The players just clicks.

:drool:Just my opinions though. Freely disagree~
 

Robertd0803

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RvN leaving did improve us. The trophies over the next few seasons prove that.

I loved him while he was here (and still followed him afterwards) but the writing was on the wall from the Carling Cup final. Was it the Anfield league game that ended being Keanes last game the one where Fergie said he gave up on a long ball and he knew that was it for RvN?

It allowed Rooney/Ronaldo/Saha to flourish and we were way more fluid up front without him. We played a different type of football with Saha upfront when he was fit as he offered something different from Ruud completely (not just the pace but look at his goal v Chelsea at Old Trafford and Benfica away for goals you wouldn't typically see Ruud scoring). Now we did strengthen with the likes of Carrick/Evra/Vidic which would have improved any team but the free flowing football wouldn't have worked as well on the pitch. United in 06/07 were a joy to watch. 07/08 with Tevez was even better.

But all that being wonderful in hindsight its well documented that he was becoming a nightmare off the pitch to deal with so he had to go regardless of whether or not it would improve us. I think it came down to Fergie making a choice between Ronaldo (and Rooneys) potential weighed up against RvNs inevitable decline and the style of football we could have played with either and thankfully he made the right choice.
 

MILLHILLMANC

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The truth is that Manchester United were struggling in front of the goal in the last 2-3 seasons of Van Nistelrooy. His presence as the main striker in the final 11 was blocking the development of Rooney and Ronaldo. Once SAF Started giving opportunities to Saha who was quicker, more pacey compared to Nistelrooy, United became a different animal, a lethal counter attacking and goal scoring team.

United scored a total of 64 and 58 goals in the entire premier league seasons of 2003-04 and 2004-05 respectively. Once Nistelrooy was gone, United scored 83 and 80 goals in the next two seasons. It gave us lightening counter attack and a breathtaking display of attacking football.

This Alan Smith argument leading the line in 7-1 win vs Roma doesn't make any sense. United last away European win with Nistelrooy was against Panathinaikos and Rangers in November 2003. Then they had to wait for 3 years against Benfica in September 2006 to for their next European away victory, and the winner was scored on counter attack (Guess by who ? as Nistelrooy was gone). It is a proven fact with all the statistics that Nistelrooy leaving United was a blessing in disguise. SAF, as ever, realized that in order to be successful in Europe again, he had to change United. He did it successfully and the result was a free-flowing and fearsome Manchester United. As a result, 3 Premier league titles in a row and 3 Champions League finals in 4 years followed.

I am fine with the affection people have for certain heroes and they have a big part in United's history. But to justify that he would still be a pivotal part in the following seasons after 10-11 years is not fair. United under the greatest manager in the world realized a inevitable change and moved on.
pretty much what I said in two sentences above - it was the formation we played with RVN. Similar to that with Zlatan.
 

Dion

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United scored a total of 64 and 58 goals in the entire premier league seasons of 2003-04 and 2004-05 respectively. Once Nistelrooy was gone, United scored 83 and 80 goals in the next two seasons. It gave us lightening counter attack and a breathtaking display of attacking football.
In 2004-2005 RVN was injured for almost half the season and we didn't score freely without him, we only managed 58 goals. Indeed the next season with him we scored 72.

We scored more goals because our midfield improved loads Ronaldo was scoring more every season. His scoring record in the league read 4, 5, 9, 17, 31.