Signing Lukaku end of the road of Rashford's (long-term) hopes of being a first-choice striker?

[ricky-romeo]

dont think rashford is ready to lead the line for one whole season, not yet at least.

he'll get plenty of games though, just like last season. left wing, right wing, upfront i dont care as long as we start scoring goals.

 

[Rood]

Jose clearly rates Rashford but the problem is that he also tends to favour playing with 1 striker and that striker is usually a big, hold the ball up type of forward - Rashford is obviously not that type


I do think that Rashford is best as a forward rather than wide so it may well affect his development or perhaps he will adapt to role coming in from wide like Theirry Henry use to

 

[Android1974]

Thing is, for the sake of the team, he should not play wide because he's mostly poor there. He's underwhelming on the left and very poor on the right, generally. We should have much better options out wide than Rashford, especially we play 4-2-3-1.

I'm convinced we'll keep playing a wide-forward on one of the wings in 4-2-3-1, surely on 4-3-3. But we might even feature a kind of 4-4-2 with a winger and a playmaker on the wings, with two forwards (out of Lukaku, Rashford and Martial).

 

[whatwha]

Manchester United should act in it's best interests, but I'm not sure why that doesn't include the development of youth. You can't complain about a bloated transfer market and on the other hand expect talent on hand to magically develop with sporadic features. Either develop, or shut up and pay up. Seems we've chosen the latter, going by the Pogba and Lukaku transfers.

Sporadic features? This thread is about Rashford who featured in almost every game last season. I'm sure he'll get plenty of chances to continue his development next season too.

 

[lysglimt]

During the Ferguson-era we most of the time had 4 strikers for 2 positions - I am sure Rashford can survive!

 

[CM]

In the short-term probably yes but I don't think it's much of a cause for concern. It's a long season, Rashford will get games.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Manchester United should act in it's best interests, but I'm not sure why that doesn't include the development of youth. You can't complain about a bloated transfer market and on the other hand expect talent on hand to magically develop with sporadic features. Either develop, or shut up and pay up. Seems we've chosen the latter, going by the Pogba and Lukaku transfers.

Yep, if we kept 'developing' Cleverley and Welbeck and not sold them off they'd be world class by now

 

[Android1974]

3-5-2

---Rash---Lukaku---
Perisic--Pog--Her--Valencia
-----------DM-----------

Nonsense. What a waste of Martial, Mkhitaryan and Mata.

 

[Adebesi]

Sporadic features? This thread is about Rashford who featured in almost every game last season. I'm sure he'll get plenty of chances to continue his development next season too.

Easy to see how his appearances could decline next season though, especially if Miki and Martial stake stronger claims to their own positions, as we all hope they will, and assuming we sign Perisic.

 

[Android1974]

R-O-T-A-T-I-O-N!

“Mourinho doesn't do rotation!”

 

[Rasendori]

I think the chances of Rashford being Jose's first choice striker was invariably going to be minimal, given Rashford isn't a quintessential Jose striker. I believe the aforementioned was the reason Rashford was predominantly utilised out wide. I see a resemblance with the way Mourinho handled Eto'o at Inter, who at Barcelona accumulated 11 goals + 9 assists in 19 appearances in 2006/07, the next season, 16 goals + 4 assists in 18 appearances, and the subsequent season, 30 goals (his most at the time, so needless to say he wasn't out of form by any stretches of the imagination) + 5 assists in 35 appearances. Despite the acquisition, it was Milito who fit the mold of a quintessential Jose striker, which resulted in Milito getting that central role in Jose's system, while Eto'o had to buy into the idea of being a team player, even if that entailed not getting the individual accolades he got before. This is exactly what happened, as Eto'o's goal tally plummeted from his career high total, to 12 goals and 7 assists in 32 appearances. Eto'o became a team player by playing as a right inside forward, while Maicon took care of providing the width on the right hand side, and in games where Jose's preconceived conclusions led him to believe the game would be difficult, Eto'o was tasked primarily with defensive responsibilities like Rashford against Liverpool - https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/back-61.png?w=620&h=683&crop=1

As a player that stepped up when the U18s needed him, after Demetri Mitchell who was carrying the U18s got injured. As a player who despite putting in above average performances for the academy didn't get the same hype as say James Wilson. As a player that was in a situation where the club had spent considerable money on teenager, Martial who quickly became vociferously praised by millions for the way he seamlessly adapted to the rigorous and frantic nature of the EPL, to be a long term investment in the position that he was now playing in. It didn't stop Rashford from being an opportunist, as he grasped his opportunity when Will Keane, Martial and Rooney were all injured, by scoring a brace on his Europa League debut, and then scoring on his Premier League debut for good measure. It didn't stop Rashford from establishing himself as a player who is now considered to not just have a brighter future than Wilson and Mitchell, but a beacon of hope to youngsters that haven't quite made it yet. So with this in mind, something tells me that the latest acquisition of Lukaku from Rashford's perspective is anything but confirmation he has no long term future, but rather another obstacle that needs to be overcome, as nothing will stop him of achieving his [dream"]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

[/SPOILER]

I remember reading a quote from Mourinho that Rashford thanked him for playing him out wide, as Rashford told him how its helped developed his all round game. So he's fine with playing where the manager wants him, but when he is given that opportunity to play as a striker, he'll try his best to make an impact, as he did in our Europa League campaign, following the injury of Zlatan.

Its difficult to prognosticate whether Rashford will find himself in a similar predicament to Welbeck, where he isn't given an extended run in his preferred role. One thing I will say is that playing as a seconda punta will hopefully allow the pair to co-exist. Ad Whether Jose would be willing to deploy a Rashford has stated "I want to become the ultimate centre forward. I want to be able to play on the left, on the right, and down the middle." and "in recent years, Ronaldo is the example: wherever you put him in the attacking three, he's going to make an impact and the opposition are going to fear him. Being a constant threat, that's what I need to develop." My take on this is that Rashford wants to be the type of striker capable of causing danger from the left, right and in the middle, all in the same game, like he did against Hull where he ran at the opposition from the left, put in dangerous crosses from the right and scored when situated in the middle. Rashford also achieved this against Anderlecht and Chelsea. Playing with an additional attacker (Balotelli + Aguero, Tevez + Rooney, Ronaldo + Raul, Henry + Berkamp, Suarez + Sturridge, Fekir + Lacazette, Falcao + Mbappe, Vargas + Sanchez) gives him the license to move around knowing there is still a goal threat. The most notable example of this being against Chelsea where he was a constant menace against a side that were top of the league, with the help of Lingard ensuring he wasn't isolated. In Lukaku's penultimate season, he built a strong rapport with Kone operating as a second striker, and perhaps with Rashford they may develop their own chemistry.

Spoiler: Jose has wanted a player of this ilk in the past

ose has already made it clear that he doesn't see Rooney as a midfielder ("Maybe he's not a striker any more. Maybe he is not a No 9 anymore but he will never, with me, be a No.6. He will never be 50 metres from the goal. For me he will be a No 9 or a No 10 or a nine-and-a-half, but with me he will never be a No 6 or even a No 8." ), and therefore Rooney whilst occupying the no.10 role isn't responsible for being a traditional playmaker, but rather as a goal scorer. Similarly, Jari Litmanen had the role of a shadow striker for Ajax respectively, as did Muller for Bayern Munich under Juup Heynckes' 4-2-3-1 which is comfortably one of the most prominent 4-2-3-1 system in recent years. Speaking of Muller, Jose has already confirmed that Muller was very much a player he was interested in, as exemplified by "is anyone in England interested in Thomas Muller? For sure. Can we, England bring Thomas Muller from Bayern Munich? I don't think so." This suggests that Jose was open to having a shadow striker at Chelsea, and it's widely believed by many that Jose wanted Griezmann, another whose mostly suited best as a shadow striker, and the Atletico Madrid president Enrique Cerezo said the following, "right now, Griezmann's thoughts are not on a sheik or blue princess coming to sign him." I felt it was particularly noteworthy that he mentioned "blue princess" which I assume was hinting at Chelsea.

Furthermore, who knows what mitigating factors, and/or extenuating circumstances will occur. For instance, Jose may resign/quit/retire/get sacked and be replaced by a manager which prefers the qualities which Rashford brings to the table.

 

[Ubermensch]

Wouldn't be surprised to see rashford play as a right winger next season for a few games. Remember against stoke last season when we were chasing it at home and he played some monster crosses from that position. Now add a 6ft3 monster...

 

[Fridge chutney]

Rashford can learn from Lukaku and can round out his attacking play from the wings. In the case of playing 442, Rashford can still play as a striker.

Remember, last year people were concerned it would be the end of Rashford (myself included) but he played the third most minutes of any player on our team, or thereabouts.

Jose loves him and he is very much part of the club's plans, as a forward.

 

[GloryHunter07]

There should be plenty of opportunity for Rashford to develop provided that Mourinho learns to rotate better or plays some games with two up front.

I think Lukaku and Rashford together would be quite scary.

 

[adexkola]

Sporadic features? This thread is about Rashford who featured in almost every game last season. I'm sure he'll get plenty of chances to continue his development next season too.

We're talking about next season. Lukaku will start in most of our PL and CL games. It would be better for Rashford if he started games in those 2 competitions, so since that can't happen here in the near future...

Yep, if we kept 'developing' Cleverley and Welbeck and not sold them off they'd be world class by now

Ah, it seems you're new to this arguing thing. That's why you think what you mentioned has anything to do with my point. Run along now.

 

[Adebesi]

I think the chances of Rashford being Jose's first choice striker was invariably going to be minimal, given Rashford isn't a quintessential Jose striker. I believe the aforementioned was the reason Rashford was predominantly utilised out wide. I see a resemblance with the way Mourinho handled Eto'o at Inter, who at Barcelona accumulated 11 goals + 9 assists in 19 appearances in 2006/07, the next season, 16 goals + 4 assists in 18 appearances, and the subsequent season, 30 goals (his most at the time, so needless to say he wasn't out of form by any stretches of the imagination) + 5 assists in 35 appearances. Despite the acquisition, it was Milito who fit the mold of a quintessential Jose striker, which resulted in Milito getting that central role in Jose's system, while Eto'o had to buy into the idea of being a team player, even if that entailed not getting the individual accolades he got before. This is exactly what happened, as Eto'o's goal tally plummeted from his career high total, to 12 goals and 7 assists in 32 appearances. Eto'o became a team player by playing as a right inside forward, while Maicon took care of providing the width on the right hand side, and in games where Jose's preconceived conclusions led him to believe the game would be difficult, Eto'o was tasked primarily with defensive responsibilities like Rashford against Liverpool - https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/back-61.png?w=620&h=683&crop=1

As a player that stepped up when the U18s needed him, after Demetri Mitchell who was carrying the U18s got injured. As a player who despite putting in above average performances for the academy didn't get the same hype as say James Wilson. As a player that was in a situation where the club had spent considerable money on teenager, Martial who quickly became vociferously praised by millions for the way he seamlessly adapted to the rigorous and frantic nature of the EPL, to be a long term investment in the position that he was now playing in. It didn't stop Rashford from being an opportunist, as he grasped his opportunity when Will Keane, Martial and Rooney were all injured, by scoring a brace on his Europa League debut, and then scoring on his Premier League debut for good measure. It didn't stop Rashford from establishing himself as a player who is now considered to not just have a brighter future than Wilson and Mitchell, but a beacon of hope to youngsters that haven't quite made it yet. So with this in mind, something tells me that the latest acquisition of Lukaku from Rashford's perspective is anything but confirmation he has no long term future, but rather another obstacle that needs to be overcome, as nothing will stop him of achieving his [dream"]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

[/SPOILER]

I remember reading a quote from Mourinho that Rashford thanked him for playing him out wide, as Rashford told him how its helped developed his all round game. So he's fine with playing where the manager wants him, but when he is given that opportunity to play as a striker, he'll try his best to make an impact, as he did in our Europa League campaign, following the injury of Zlatan.

Its difficult to prognosticate whether Rashford will find himself in a similar predicament to Welbeck, where he isn't given an extended run in his preferred role. One thing I will say is that playing as a seconda punta will hopefully allow the pair to co-exist. Ad Whether Jose would be willing to deploy a Rashford has stated "I want to become the ultimate centre forward. I want to be able to play on the left, on the right, and down the middle." and "in recent years, Ronaldo is the example: wherever you put him in the attacking three, he's going to make an impact and the opposition are going to fear him. Being a constant threat, that's what I need to develop." My take on this is that Rashford wants to be the type of striker capable of causing danger from the left, right and in the middle, all in the same game, like he did against Hull where he ran at the opposition from the left, put in dangerous crosses from the right and scored when situated in the middle. Rashford also achieved this against Anderlecht and Chelsea. Playing with an additional attacker (Balotelli + Aguero, Tevez + Rooney, Ronaldo + Raul, Henry + Berkamp, Suarez + Sturridge, Fekir + Lacazette, Falcao + Mbappe, Vargas + Sanchez) gives him the license to move around knowing there is still a goal threat. The most notable example of this being against Chelsea where he was a constant menace against a side that were top of the league, with the help of Lingard ensuring he wasn't isolated. In Lukaku's penultimate season, he built a strong rapport with Kone operating as a second striker, and perhaps with Rashford they may develop their own chemistry.

Spoiler: Jose has wanted a player of this ilk in the past

ose has already made it clear that he doesn't see Rooney as a midfielder ("Maybe he's not a striker any more. Maybe he is not a No 9 anymore but he will never, with me, be a No.6. He will never be 50 metres from the goal. For me he will be a No 9 or a No 10 or a nine-and-a-half, but with me he will never be a No 6 or even a No 8." ), and therefore Rooney whilst occupying the no.10 role isn't responsible for being a traditional playmaker, but rather as a goal scorer. Similarly, Jari Litmanen had the role of a shadow striker for Ajax respectively, as did Muller for Bayern Munich under Juup Heynckes' 4-2-3-1 which is comfortably one of the most prominent 4-2-3-1 system in recent years. Speaking of Muller, Jose has already confirmed that Muller was very much a player he was interested in, as exemplified by "is anyone in England interested in Thomas Muller? For sure. Can we, England bring Thomas Muller from Bayern Munich? I don't think so." This suggests that Jose was open to having a shadow striker at Chelsea, and it's widely believed by many that Jose wanted Griezmann, another whose mostly suited best as a shadow striker, and the Atletico Madrid president Enrique Cerezo said the following, "right now, Griezmann's thoughts are not on a sheik or blue princess coming to sign him." I felt it was particularly noteworthy that he mentioned "blue princess" which I assume was hinting at Chelsea.

Furthermore, who knows what mitigating factors, and/or extenuating circumstances will occur. For instance, Jose may resign/quit/retire/get sacked and be replaced by a manager which prefers the qualities which Rashford brings to the table.

Great post and I was going to say something similar to your last para in response to @Rood. He is young enough that by the time he is ready to compete as the main man for United, the chances are Mourinho wont even be the one making that decision. Or at least there's a reasonable chance he wont be.

 

[roonster09]

Manchester United should act in it's best interests, but I'm not sure why that doesn't include the development of youth. You can't complain about a bloated transfer market and on the other hand expect talent on hand to magically develop with sporadic features. Either develop, or shut up and pay up. Seems we've chosen the latter, going by the Pogba and Lukaku transfers.

We can do both. These academy players will play as squad players which means we will save big money.

Rashford's game has improved playing wide, there will be injuries, rotations and all that, so any player signing for big club should be ready for all this.

I would say we are doing fine in youth development, for now they are squad players.

 

[Android1974]

Things staying has they are, and even with Perišić coming, I still see Rashford as the starter in the leftwing when Lukaku is striker.

 

[Zoo]

We can do both develop and spend money. A new striker was needed with Rooney definitely finished and Zlatan's injury but let's ignore logic.

 

[AXVnee7]

We may very well play both. There's some speculation among posters here that Jose might revert to a 3 at the back system like he played at times last season, and of course on the options is to play 2 strikers upfront. We might even see 2 strikers up front with 4 at the back for certain games. Jose's plan is not clear yet and it doesn't help us to discern anything when he tried many different tactics and formations - some experimental and some planned. It's conjecture on our part. But even if Jose doesn't start Rashford and instead goes for the lone striker, he's still going to get enough game time. Being second choice striker behind Lukaku is not limiting at all. Like all strikers, I expect Lukaku to go through a bad patch at some point and that's where Rashford needs to seize his opportunity. Marcus hasn't been playing his way into contention, he has always been given the opportunity and then delivered.

I do not believe shunting him out on the wing is good for him, and would rather he were kept more central, perhaps even as #9/#10 hybrid, IE a second striker.

We shouldn't also assume that he will follow a linear path as Lukaku has. By the time Rashford is 23/24 he could be much better than Lukaku is. I think at 19, it's not a big concern as it would be in a couple of years time.

 

[Lord Megadrive]

If Rashford has to work harder to get into the first eleven then so be it, it will make him a better player. I don't get the stitude that signing X will stall Y's progress. If they're good enough then that quality will shine through

 

[adexkola]

We can do both. These academy players will play as squad players which means we will save big money.

Rashford's game has improved playing wide, there will be injuries, rotations and all that, so any player signing for big club should be ready for all this.

I would say we are doing fine in youth development, for now they are squad players.

Put it like this. Would Lukaku be starting for us if in the past 5 years, he was content with getting scraps from the time not played by Costa, instead of starting at Everton?

 

[whatwha]

Easy to see how his appearances could decline next season though, especially if Miki and Martial stake stronger claims to their own positions, as we all hope they will, and assuming we sign Perisic.

Yes, but I'm not optimistic enough to think that Martial and Mkhi will display good form for anywhere close to a full season. I can see Rashford getting plenty of appearances either on the left or the right or even as a 9 if Lukaku is rested or injured. I'm just not worried about his playing time. He's a good sub option even if he gets fewer starts.

We're talking about next season. Lukaku will start in most of our PL and CL games. It would be better for Rashford if he started games in those 2 competitions, so since that can't happen here in the near future...

But he's not ready to be the number 9. His finishing needs to improve first. We can't afford to let him work on that in important games. Nor can we afford to let him go on loan. He'll just have to accept being subbed on for Lukaku in the last 20 or start on the left or right.

 

[Adebesi]

Yes, but I'm not optimistic enough to think that Martial and Mkhi will display good form for anywhere close to a full season. I can see Rashford getting plenty of appearances either on the left or the right or even as a 9 if Lukaku is rested or injured. I'm just not worried about his playing time. He's a good sub option even if he gets fewer starts.

Agreed.

 

[roonster09]

Put it like this. Would Lukaku be starting for us if in the past 5 years, he was content with getting scraps from the time not played by Costa, instead of starting at Everton?

There is a reason why he was sold to Everton, he wasn't ready to lead the line just like Rashford isn't. Luckily Rashford can play in multiple positions for us.

Big clubs won't risk much with young players, we are in worse state considering our performances since SAF retired, so it's even bigger risk.

Morata is proven player but is a back up for Benzema. Asensio is a wonderful talent but is not a starter.

Rashford is still 19/20, he will have plenty of chances. Also playing wide doesn't mean he can't play as CF in the future. Diego Costa was a left winger but once Falcao was sold he became the main striker.

Like you said club should act in it's best interest but we are also not ignoring players like Rashford, just that we can't risk playing him as #9.

 

[fellaini's barber]

We're talking about next season. Lukaku will start in most of our PL and CL games. It would be better for Rashford if he started games in those 2 competitions, so since that can't happen here in the near future...



Ah, it seems you're new to this arguing thing. That's why you think what you mentioned has anything to do with my point. Run along now.

Get over yourself mate, was just pointing out the weirdness of your 'point'. Like I'd have the time to do 'this arguing thing' with you

 

[VeevaVee]

It's not like 2 strikers is particularly difficult to manage anyway is it?

We had 4 that played regularly once upon a time.

 

[Hal9000]

He'll get plenty of games. Also if he's good enough, becomes good enough, he'll become first choice.

 

[Brightonian]

We have two strikers. Of course he'll get game time.

 

[Android1974]

The point is, can Mourinho afford to develop a formation that leaves one of Lukaku or Rashford on the bench? I don't think so.

 

[BAMSOLA]

“Mourinho doesn't do rotation!”

Judging by the quotation marks i'll assume you don't believe that myth. I hope most others don't either, in the games that matter less he will rotate, in the big trophy deciding games he will have a first 11 in his mind which may actually include Rashford as either part of a two man strike force or out wide.

I really don't see the issue he is obviously a mourinho favourite just in terms of workrate and tactical application which is why he started both finals.

 

[adexkola]

There is a reason why he was sold to Everton, he wasn't ready to lead the line just like Rashford isn't. Luckily Rashford can play in multiple positions for us.

Big clubs won't risk much with young players, we are in worse state considering our performances since SAF retired, so it's even bigger risk.

Morata is proven player but is a back up for Benzema. Asensio is a wonderful talent but is not a starter.

Rashford is still 19/20, he will have plenty of chances. Also playing wide doesn't mean he can't play as CF in the future. Diego Costa was a left winger but once Falcao was sold he became the main striker.

Like you said club should act in it's best interest but we are also not ignoring players like Rashford, just that we can't risk playing him as #9.

My point is, he's more likely to replace Lukaku by leaving and starting in his favorite position elsewhere. Morata who you mentioned started a lot of games for Juventus. Costa repaid the faith shown by Simeone when he was played up front. I don't buy this nonsense about him needing to bide his time on the wing. He's not a winger. He's a striker and he needs games. He needs to consider the possibility that we are not the best location for HIM right now, the same way many people believe that starting him at United is not the best situation for the club.

Then maybe if he turns out decent at Southampton, we get fleeced to the tune of 63 million pounds to bring him back.

 

[RedCurry]

Let Rashford develop at his own pace. He's 19 years old and still growing physically. Lukaku will help instead of stunt his growth. Diego Costa did alright for himself even though at first he was just a "backup" to Aguero, Forlan and Falcao.

In 2-3 years of time, Rashford will be physically at similar level to Lukaku and in my opinion can become a better player. My only concern is that Jose doesn't exactly play the style of football that would help a young striker learn new skills.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Lukaku isnt a target man at ALL, when will this myth end?

Yeah I guess I know what you're saying, I guess I mean the most advanced striker whose job it is to get on the end of things

 

[el3mel]

When club fans are thinking about Martial and Rashford more than club winning trophies then there's something wrong.

 

[MUFC OK]

Lets not forget that Rooney didn't play ST until 2009/10 (aged 24/25). In fact in the most successful period in our recent history (2008) he played on the left. He was in a similar developmental stage when we bought him to what Rashford is now. In other words, theres no rush to have him as a ST. He operates effectively, and is skilful and hard working enough to be a huge success there.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

442, it's the future....

 

[adexkola]

Lets not forget that Rooney didn't play ST until 2009/10 (aged 24/25). In fact in the most successful period in our recent history (2008) he played on the left. He was in a similar developmental stage when we bought him to what Rashford is now. In other words, theres no rush to have him as a ST. He operates effectively, and is skilful and hard working enough to be a huge success there.

I'm positive that this is not true.

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

Jose had no choice but to play his best striker in almost every game last season because we struggled for goals and he was consistently scoring. Hopefully there'll be more opportunity to rotate now, and Rashford has already shown willingness to grow and adapt his game so he'll keep getting chances.

 

[MUFC OK]

I'm positive that this is not true.

He certainly didn't play lone striker until that point, IIRC he was played behind Van nistelrooy (2004-2006), and Saha (2006/07), then when Tevez arrived he was Left forward/winger with Ronaldo on the right.