Jose's tactics at United | Acrophobia discussion

breakout67 said:
For anyone unaware, the OP of this thread said after the stoke game that Matic was slow and poor under pressure and we needed Hererra to provide speed in midfield and protect the back 4.

He's either chatting shite or blind :lol:
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Except I said that we'll need Herrera in the BIG games as Pogba and Matic won't suffice.
 
Treble said:
It's pretty obvious that the taller players are less dynamic and quick over short distances (5-10 metres). IMO, Zlatan would beat Messi over 100 m but Messi will leave him dead over 10 metres. Same with Kante and Pogba.
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How about Mata and Rashford? Short players beats taller player over short distance?
 
Moonwalker said:
He cited a very clear example of what he thinks the litmus should be, and no, we really don't know if this is the side that will go on to win the Champions League or even the Premier league.
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Of course not. No one knows who is going to win the league and champions league, regardless of height.

We know the players Jose has brought in. Applying a general rule to players we know it doesn't actually apply to is nonsensical. Why talk broadly when we can talk specifically?
 
roonster09 said:
How about Mata and Rashford? Short players beats taller player over short distance?
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I'm pretty sure that Mata despite being a lot slower than Rashford won't lose over 5 metres or won't lose by much. Of course there are exceptions but generally taller players are not as quick over 5-10 metres. Romario was generally slow but used to beat quick CBs for fun within 10 metres.
 
Are people saying that short players don't have any physical advantage whatsoever over tall players? Really?
 
Treble said:
I'm pretty sure that Mata despite being a lot slower than Rashford won't lose over 5 metres or won't lose by much. Of course there are exceptions but generally taller players are not as quick over 5-10 metres. Romario was generally slow but beated quick CBs for fun within 10 metres.
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Rashford would beat Mata over any distance. Quickness of the feet or ability on the ball is not a problem for Pogba so what you said might be true for players like Crouch or Carew but not every tall players. We happen to have tall players with good technical ability.
 
Treble said:
Are people saying that short players don't have any physical advantage whatsoever over tall players? Really?
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No, but looking at your posts you make it sound like shorter players don't have any disadvantages and somehow having shorter players means playing slick football and winning games.
 
Treble said:
Except I said that we'll need Herrera in the BIG games as Pogba and Matic won't suffice.
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Why would you need Hererra to protect the back 4, when Matic was bought specifically to do that?

Is it because he's not 'very tall' and slow like Matic?

Your assessment of Matic and Pogba makes no sense at all; its as if youve taken their qualities and flipped them around and slapped it on them as players.

Matic is a quick thinker in midfield, he clearly makes an effort to pass the ball in as few touches as possible, unless he wants to run into space. He isnt some slow lumbering midfielder; he gets to top speed very quickly and closes down space efficiently.

Pogba is one of our best players at handling the ball in tight spaces; his close control of the ball is phenomenal. He has so many tricks in his arsenal and is virtually impossible to out muscle, he's also very good at forcing a foul on himself.

Handling the ball under pressure is not a reasonable criticism of either Pogba or Matic; its a criticism of Mkhitaryan who is one of your beloved short players.
 
roonster09 said:
Rashford would beat Mata over any distance. Quickness of the feet or ability on the ball is not a problem for Pogba so what you said might be true for players like Crouch or Carew but not every tall players. We happen to have tall players with good technical ability.
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Berbatov who I liked a lot had fantastic technique but wasn't dynamic enough despite covering as much distance as Rooney and Tevez. Both Rooney ansd Tevez were much quicker over short distances. Berbatov wasn't slow over 30-40 metres at all.
 
Treble said:
Are people saying that short players don't have any physical advantage whatsoever over tall players? Really?
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Not every small player is going to be faster even at short distance ahead of a tall one just like not every tall player will 'struggle in tight spaces' whereas the small player will, for some reason, have it easier.
 
Treble said:
Berbatov who I liked a lot had fantastic technique but wasn't dynamic enough despite covering as much distance as Rooney and Tevez. Both Rooney ansd Tevez were much quicker over short distances. Berbatov wasn't slow over 30-40 metres at all.
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Go on, post few more slower taller players and quicker shorter players. That will prove your theory.
 
roonster09 said:
No, but looking at your posts you make it sound like shorter players don't have any disadvantages and somehow having shorter players means playing slick football and winning games.
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Obviously they have: set peices, defending from long balls etc
 
Kostur said:
Not every small player is going to be faster even at short distance ahead of a tall one just like not every tall player will 'struggle in tight spaces' whereas the small player will, for some reason, have it easier.
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The point is about general tendencies and not about exceptions that prove the rule.

I'm making a prediction that is very easy to be empirically refuted: this United midfield will struggle in the big games, especially if it consists only of Matic and Pogba. Matic and Pogba won't work against top oppositon. Can't say in advance whether adding Herrera to them will work significantly better.
 
Treble said:
Berbatov who I liked a lot had fantastic technique but wasn't dynamic enough despite covering as much distance as Rooney and Tevez. Both Rooney ansd Tevez were much quicker over short distances. Berbatov wasn't slow over 30-40 metres at all.
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And fabregas, iniesta, xavi would all absolutely roast Pogba or Lukaku too...
 
Treble said:
The point is about general tendencies and not about exceptions that prove the rule.

I'm making a prediction that is very easy to be empirically refuted: this United midfield will struggle in the big games, especially if it consists alone of Matic and pogba. Matic and Pogba won't work against top oppositon. Can't say in advance whether adding Herrera to them will work significantly better.
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The problem is that it's hard to keep track what the real point of this thread is as you're constantly shifting things. First it's about tall players struggling and asking how many teams have played tall players and won things, then you switch to 'midfield only' because 'there are always big defenders and forwards', then you change it to very tall, then apparently 6 ft is not very tall but 6 ft 2 is, then it's more generalisation about height in relation to pace. You've created some profile in your mind where tall players are clumsy and more prone to making mistakes when pressed and then try to apply it to our players, not taking into account Pogba and Matić's technical proficiency.
 
So the way to solve this is to list the top 5 players of all time in any given position and then average out their heights, surely that will then let us know what the 'ideal height' is, if there is such a thing...?

It's fairly obvious that GKs and CBs are gonna be between 6'0 and 6'4, so just do the other positions, like who do you think are the best 5 MFs, wingers, number 10s, CFs of all time.
 
The OP makes zero sense considering our tall players (Fellaini aside) are all gifted ball players, Pogba is probably the most technically gifted player in the league.

If you can get height, power and technical skills in the same player, it has to be a positive no? I mean, Wenger did alright when he preferred the Henrys, Campbells, Vieiras and Petits of the World. Or has it gone better for Wenger since he got a hard on for everything short and techincal?
 
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Kostur said:
The problem is that it's hard to keep track what the real point of this thread is as you're constantly shifting things. First it's about tall players struggling and asking how many teams have played tall players and won things, then you switch to 'midfield only' because 'there are always big defenders and forwards', then you change it to very tall, then apparently 6 ft is not very tall but 6 ft 2 is, then it's more generalisation about height in relation to pace. You've created some profile in your mind where tall players are clumsy and more prone to making mistakes when pressed and then try to apply it to our players, not taking into account Pogba and Matić's technical proficiency.
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This. I don't expect you'll get a coherent response.
 
We should wait for judgements until we face big teams out there to see how we approach those games.
 
Being tall can help aerially on both sides of the pitch, plus being great aerially is one of the best ways to score in a tight game while minimizing risk since you don't need to send the whole team forward.
 
ivaldo said:
Of course not. No one knows who is going to win the league and champions league, regardless of height.

We know the players Jose has brought in. Applying a general rule to players we know it doesn't actually apply to is nonsensical. Why talk broadly when we can talk specifically?
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That isn't what he is doing though. To say that Pogba and Matic are outliers within a certain group in a given ability (the group being tall players, and the ability general technique, however broadly you define it) does not mean that they are better in that ability than every single member from the other group (short players) in that ability. The premise is that short players in general, have a higher level of technical ability, despite the fact that if you had two distributions they would considerably overlap. But the outliers from the short group are slightly more technical than the outliers from the tall group. So that if you're then building a very tall team - you've denied yourself the absolute peak in terms of technical ability.

There's nothing nonsensical about that whatsoever. Whether you think that makes an iota of difference to how well we'll do is another matter entirely (I actually think it only predisposes us to do better). But we can't even get past the first hurdle, and people are still crusading against absolute claims. That's vexing stuff.
 
Strange thread. I know the thread-starter is a massive fan of Cristiano Ronaldo. He's what? 6' 2"? Zinedine Zidane is another sublimely talented player over six foot tall. His current Madrid team is stacked with tall players. The greatest Barca team in recent years would have been nothing without 6'3" tall Sergio Busquets anchoring midfield.

Mata and Mikhi aside, at least one of our most recent signings (Lindelof) is unusually short for the position he plays, if anything.

So yeah, very much smacks of looking for a new angle to criticise the manager about. Top marks for originality, I guess.
 
Moonwalker said:
That's vexing stuff.
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The only thing vexing me is trying to make sense of your above post. Haven't the foggiest what you are trying to say.

The only thing I can pull from it is that Pogba can't ever be as good technically as a top shorter player? (Bollocks) and that somehow, despite having Miki and Mata start the majority of games this season, Mourinho is denying himself the chance to build the best team possible?
 
Kostur said:
The problem is that it's hard to keep track what the real point of this thread is as you're constantly shifting things. First it's about tall players struggling and asking how many teams have played tall players and won things, then you switch to 'midfield only' because 'there are always big defenders and forwards', then you change it to very tall, then apparently 6 ft is not very tall but 6 ft 2 is, then it's more generalisation about height in relation to pace. You've created some profile in your mind where tall players are clumsy and more prone to making mistakes when pressed and then try to apply it to our players, not taking into account Pogba and Matić's technical proficiency.
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I'm talking about players who are tall like Pogba and Matic from the start.

United have 4 such players if you add Fellaini and Carrick, the other big 7-8 clubs have 4-5 such players taken together. Jose's preference towards such players is kinda obvious. The question is why. Most posts didn't try to answer it at all.

Your narrative that I'm "shifting things" is entirely fabricated. The point from the start is the same.

Well, time will tell whether my point holds water. Maybe we will smash the other top teams and Matic and Pogba will be the best midfueld duo in the world! I wouldn't hold my breath about that but my knowledge of the game is pretty limited.
 
I assume that the main advantage of it is at set pieces, both attacking and defending - which is an increasingly big part of the game
 
Treble said:
I'm talking about players who are tall like Pogba and Matic from the start.

United have 4 such players if you add Fellaini and Carrick, the other big 7-8 clubs have 4-5 such players taken together. Jose's preference towards such players is kinda obvious. The question is why. Most posts didn't try to answer it at all.

Your narrative that I'm "shifting things" is entirely fabricated. The point from the start is the same.

Well, time will tell whether my point holds water. Maybe we will smash the other top teams and Matic and Pogba will be the best midfueld duo in the world! I wouldn't hold my breath about that but my knowledge of the game is pretty limited.
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No it isn't.

The reasons behind him signing both Pogba and Matic are obvious and have nothing to do with height.

He didn't sign Carrick or Fellaini, so they're irrelevant to this discussion. Especially considering neither of them have started a game for us so far this season while Mata and Mikhi have, consistently.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The assumption that Pogba and Matic will definitely struggle when pressed "because they're tall, innit" could go down as a redcafe classic up there with left-footed penalties being harder to save.
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So, if they struggle indeed it will be because they are what? Simply not good enough? Or?

We won't see Matic and Pogba in midfiled vs top teams. Jose will use Herrera as well.

It might be a coincidence that no great team in history has featured two 6,3/6,4 players in midfield. Jose may rewrite the textbooks after this season.
 
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