Jose's tactics at United | Acrophobia discussion

[Adebesi]

Twitter not working for me - mind giving me a summarised rundown?

He's saying the same as Mourinho said himself, essentially:

Mourinho got it spot on. A point at Anfield is a good result. Klopp didnt take any more risks than Mourinho did. United are scoring more goals and amassing more points than Liverpool, therefore the onus was on Liverpool to get the win.

 

[BullishBull]

I thought Curtis was talking absolute nonsense. He said that we only had one chance where as I counted far more. Matip missed a sitter, Salah then missed an easy chance literally two seconds after that De Gea save. Then in the second half both Can and Salah missed more chances. He must of watched a different game to me. Then he said Klopp was just as negative as Mourinho. We had a three man midfield but Widjnadum and Can are never just stuck in the middle of the pitch, they are always high up the pitch. Why the hell would Klopp take off a midfielder for a striker when that is exactly what Mourinho would of wanted? All Mourinho wanted was a counter attack or a set piece, basically waiting for us to make a mistake instead of trying to win the game through attacking himself.

 

[Adebesi]

I thought Curtis was talking absolute nonsense. He said that we only had one chance where as I counted far more. Matip missed a sitter, Salah then missed an easy chance literally two seconds after that De Gea save. Then in the second half both Can and Salah missed more chances. He must of watched a different game to me. Then he said Klopp was just as negative as Mourinho. We had a three man midfield but Widjnadum and Can are never just stuck in the middle of the pitch, they are always high up the pitch. Why the hell would Klopp take off a midfielder for a striker when that is exactly what Mourinho would of wanted? All Mourinho wanted was a counter attack or a set piece, basically waiting for us to make a mistake instead of trying to win the game through attacking himself.

And why would Mourinho start committing bodies forward when that is exactly what Klopp wanted?

Listen, I wish we had played better on the day, I thought you were there for the taking to be honest. But the fact remains a draw away for us is a better result than a draw at home for you.

I agree with you though that you had more chances than us.

 

[BullishBull]

And why would Mourinho start committing bodies forward when that is exactly what Klopp wanted?

Listen, I wish we had played better on the day, I thought you were there for the taking to be honest. But the fact remains a draw away for us is a better result than a draw at home for you.

I agree with you though that you had more chances than us.

You could of at least pushed the wingers on a bit, you would still of had like 7 men behind the ball. I don’t care about Mourinho parking the bus, he always does it. Even if he had Ronaldo and Bale he would still do it just because he would think well if I sit back all game the chances are with the pace of Bale and Ronaldo I might be able to nick it. We didn’t win the game due to not taking our chances as usual.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I agree it would be ok to do it when we win the title or come close to it at the end of the season.

But, I think most people who concerned about the performance against liverpool are saying they don't want to see this kind of performance as a permanent one in every away game against any team that is remotely good regardless of our squad quality which is going to get better anyway.

Which is hard to disagree.

Whilst the purist in me agrees, I am confident this is how we will set up against all top teams tbh. It's not pretty and it wasn't great to watch but we're kidding ourselves if we expect Mou to do anything but sit and counter when away against a top team.

 

[Hoof the ball]

I was quite surprised this morning when I read something Jamie Carragher raised on Sky Sports about Mourinho's away results in the last 10 games against top six opposition :-

 

[Adebesi]

That does make grim reading, hopefully his record in 2018 and 2019 will be better. (And he finishes off 2017 with a couple of wins against Chelsea and Arsenal.)

 

[Infordin]

Tottenham (with injuries to Alli, Wanyama, Dembele, Davies and Lamela) played more expansive football today than United did on Saturday, despite playing against an opponent 10 times scarier than Liverpool.

Obviously a draw against a tough opponent away from home can almost always be seen as a good result, but it's the way the draw was achieved that makes it so different (and the quality of the opponent).

 

[PepsiCola]

Would love Pochettino as our next coach.

 

[donkeyfish]

I thought Curtis was talking absolute nonsense. He said that we only had one chance where as I counted far more. Matip missed a sitter, Salah then missed an easy chance literally two seconds after that De Gea save. Then in the second half both Can and Salah missed more chances. He must of watched a different game to me. Then he said Klopp was just as negative as Mourinho. We had a three man midfield but Widjnadum and Can are never just stuck in the middle of the pitch, they are always high up the pitch. Why the hell would Klopp take off a midfielder for a striker when that is exactly what Mourinho would of wanted? All Mourinho wanted was a counter attack or a set piece, basically waiting for us to make a mistake instead of trying to win the game through attacking himself

You seem to contradict yourself here, given you seem to acknowledge that a counter attack indeed is an attack.

Liverpool did have 3 good chances though. Matip, Salah rebound and Can.

 

[Devil may care]

The way Spurs were set up tonight was 3-4-3 but their tactics weren't overly different to the way we started out at Anfield, the biggest difference was they had a double wide threat on their right where as we got no fullback attacking at all, and Winks and Kane performed their parts in the counter game better than Herrera and Lukaku.

 

[Lord_Emz]

Meh, looking at what Tottenham did to Liverpool today, I begin to wonder what damage we could have done if we decided to go for it in that game

 

[Treble]

I wondered in the OP why Jose is assembling a team of very tall players. I guess the answer is the following.

His type of football faces two big problems. First, how to deal with high-pressing teams. Second, how to open up packed defences.

His solution to both: hoofing the ball to players like Fellaini, Lukaku, Pogba, Ibra who are monsters physicality and height wise. Thus, you bypass pressing in midfield and create chances vs deep-lying defences as well.

I've been sceptical from the start that it is a great solution. But it may work eventually. It's too early to say anything definitive. Still, the midfield looks unconvincing in the big games. And I very much doubt that Pogba would magically improve it to the extent that it dominates games vs top teams. The problem runs deeper than Pogba's absence.

Btw, City have the shortest team in the league.

 

[Mike09]

In my opinion even though Jose is one of the best tactician in defending but in attack he relies too much in his attacker's ability. That's probably why Pep had argument with Eto'o and Zlatan because Pep wanted his striker to do something that can benefit for his tactic

While with Mourinho, he likes to give the attackers more freedom to express their ability and intelligence to create chance and goals rather than setting up tactic for his attackers. This is so disadvantage if Mourinho's attackers aren't intelligent enough with their movement and decision making.

 

[iKeano]

José is so negative he can reset pregnancy tests.

 

[Treble]

Maybe, just maybe, this thread raised legitimate concerns about a midfield consisting of very tall players. It was made when the team was still flying. As good as Matic, Pogba, Fellaini, McTominay are, they are not mobile, agile, flexible, quick over short (!) distances and cannot press properly, nor can they resist high pressing well enough. Both games with Sevilla should have been eye-opening for those who accepted the performances vs the top 6 in England as sufficiently good.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Nzonzi is 190cm tall, Vasquez 187cm.

Hope this helps.

 

[Treble]

Nzonzi is 190cm tall, Vasquez 187cm.

Hope this helps.

Matic and Fellaini are 194, Pogba 191. Any single cm above 190 has consequences for the mobilty of the players. 4-5 cm may look like a nothing difference but in reality they may make a serious difference.

Btw, Banega is 174. And he makes them tick more than any other player (if I'm not wrong).

And City have the shortest squad in the PL. Maybe that helps too?

 

[roonster09]

Maybe, just maybe, this thread raised legitimate concerns about a midfield consisting of very tall players. It was made when the team was still flying. As good as Matic, Pogba, Fellaini, McTominay are, they are not mobile, agile, flexible, quick over short (!) distances and cannot press properly, nor can they resist high pressing well enough. Both games with Sevilla should have been eye-opening for those who accepted the performances vs the top 6 in England as sufficiently good.

Talk about fitting your narrative to the results.

Javi Martrinez, Gustavo, Schweinsteiger, Kroos were all 6 feet or above and they played superbly. They also had Muller and Mandzukic. Overall that season they had best or second best possession stats and won treble.

Busquets is 6.2, he has good mobilty and as press resistant as they come. Player pressing or not depends on manager and what they expect from players, not their height or which footed player they are.

Also Spurs team had Dembele (6.1) and Dier (6.2) in midfield when they dominated Juventus. Both over 6 feet and both had no problem pressing and dominating the game. They also had players like Eriksen (6), Kane (6.2), Alli (6.2). They usually play with Son (6) and this is their regular team and they don't have any problems with pressing or playing in tight spaces because they are coached to play like that.

ManUtd not pressing and not dominating midfield has nothing to do with height.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Matic and Fellaini are 194, Pogba 191. Any single cm above 190 has consequences for the mobilty of the players. 4-5 cm may look like a nothing difference but in reality they may make a serious difference.

Btw, Banega is 174. And he makes them tick more than any other player (if I'm not wrong).

And City have the shortest squad in the PL. Maybe that helps too?

now you’re just making shit up.

 

[Treble]

Talk about fitting your narrative to the results.

Javi Martrinez, Gustavo, Schweinsteiger, Kroos were all 6 feet or above and they played superbly. They also had Muller and Mandzukic. Overall that season they had best or second best possession stats and won treble.

Busquets is 6.2, he has good mobilty and as press resistant as they come. Player pressing or not depends on manager and what they expect from players, not their height or which footed player they are.

Also Spurs team had Dembele (6.1) and Dier (6.2) in midfield when they dominated Juventus. Both over 6 feet and both had no problem pressing and dominating the game. They also had players like Eriksen (6), Kane (6.2), Alli (6.2). They usually play with Son (6) and this is their regular team and they don't have any problems with pressing or playing in tight spaces because they are coached to play like that.

ManUtd not pressing and not dominating midfield has nothing to do with height.

I've answered this point. No big club out there has had 2 giants in midfiield (Matic and Fellaini are 194, McTominay is 193, Pogba 191). Don't think it is a coincidence either. Dembele is 185, Dier 188. That's some difference in height. And agility too.

I'm not saying that I was right. But that my concern wasn't outlandish. It's pretty obvious that players who are close to 195 cm tall are less agile and quick over short distances than players who are 175-185. Fernandinho is 179, KDB 181, Silva 173. And they are great at pressing and resisting high pressing too. It's not only about height, of course. But height matters in these matters too. Giants can't press well enough and win 50/50 balls.

 

[Treble]

now you’re just making shit up.

It's obvious that there is a correlation between height and mobility (in all its apects, not mainly in distance covered or top speed). If you put someone who is 220 cm in midfield, he would look terribly out of his depth there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's obvious that there is a correlation between height and mobility (in all its apects, not mainly in distance covered or top speed). If you put someone who is 220 cm in midfield, he would look terribly out of his depth there.

And god help the 3m tall players they’d be really screwed. Maybe we should be targetting the sub-100cm players? Think how nimble they’d be?!?

 

[BluesJr]

There is a definite relationship between mobility and height. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

Until we prioritise technique, pressing, movement and passing we won’t do anything serious.

 

[roonster09]

I've answered this point. No big club out there has had 2 giants in midfiield (Matic and Fellaini are 194, McTominay is 193, Pogba 191). Don't think it is a coincidence either. Dembele is 185, Dier 188. That's some difference in height. And agility too.

I'm not saying that I was right. But that my concern wasn't outlandish. It's pretty obvious that players who are close to 195 cm tall are less agile and quick over short distances than players who are 175-185. Fernandinho is 179, KDB 181, Silva 173. And they are great at pressing and resisting high pressing too. It's not only about height, of course. But height matters in these matters too. Giants can't press well enough and win 50/50 balls.

Dembele and Dier are 6.1 and 6.2, ManUtd midfielders are 6.3 and 6.4. It's just 1-2 inches which is nothing. Height is not the reason why they don't press or play compact game. You are poiting fingers at wrong reasons.

Also giants don't win 50/50 balls? Matic was leading in tackles and other duels when Chelsea won the league under Jose. It's how the coach sets up that matters. Also in the season Bayern won treble, Martinez average 7 in tackles + interceptions in CL.

You have made up your mind and trying to fit everything in to that narative by saying even 4-5 cms makes a difference. If we are talking about sex, then yes it does.

 

[roonster09]

There is a definite relationship between mobility and height. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

Until we prioritise technique, pressing, movement and passing we won’t do anything serious.

Eh? Busquets is 6.2, is he not mobile enough?

Or Ronaldo who is also 6.2, is there anything wrong with Ronaldo's acceleration, pace, mobility?

Rio was 6.3 and he was very quick off the mark and had very good speed.

 

[Sultan]

One thing you can't accuse Pogba and Matic is lack of mobility. Fellaini has definite mobility issues.

This mobility argument brings back memories of Cheif's left-footed penalty thread.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’m being facetious, obviously, but the idea that the likes of Nzonzi, Dembele, Busquets, Carrick or Vieira would turn from assets to liabilities if they were an inch or two taller is errant nonsense.

What all the above players have benefited from is a schemer to complement them. Someone with a bit of composure, guile and an ability to dictate play. That player for us was supposed to be Paul Pogba. The fact he seems to be failing his audition for that role is to do with many factors. His height is the least of them.

 

[gibers]

There is a definite relationship between mobility and height. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

Until we prioritise technique, pressing, movement and passing we won’t do anything serious.

Mou wont wake up one day and be able to coach these things. He can't simple. So essentially either we get an attacking coach or fire Mou.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Nothing to do with height, it is all about how they are being asked to play.

 

[gibers]

Nothing to do with height, it is all about how they are being asked to play.

Modern day Fabio Capello.

 

[roonster09]

Nothing to do with height, it is all about how they are being asked to play.

Exactly. Players like Lallana who couldn't last 60 mins went on to become machine in Klopp's side. So many players who didn't press started to press from the first game Klopp was in charge. It's all about how coach wants his team to play.

 

[kiristao]

There are several problems with United tactically right now. (And this is not based only on the Seville game)
1) A defensive approach works against the better team as it is ok to come out with a draw if you cant nick a goal on the counter. When you try it against the smaller teams, you can end up with them nicking a goal on the counter when you try to push for a win too late on.
2) As good as Young has done at LB, what is the point of playing a winger as a LB if he will not make runs ahead of the Left winger. Might as well play a proper LB in Shaw and reduce the burden on the Right Winger to defend as much.
3) Martial/Rashford have done quite well from the left and have been really poor on the right. Sanchez has not been as effective. Why not try Sanchez on the right or down the middle for a few games
4) Why do we struggle so badly at set pieces? Cannot remember the last time we scored from a corner.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Would love Pochettino as our next coach.

You and me both.

 

[Adebesi]

Can big players play with small players? Is that our problem with Sanchez? All our giants can't see him all the way down there, darting this way and that with nimble abandon.

 

[AN17]

You and me both.

Count me in.

 

[Joeace2020]

Look it's not about Mobility being affected by height, it's about the manager's tactics based on the height he has in Midfield. How often do you see us play out from the back when under pressure like City, Barcelona does? We are a rich man's Westbrom because we know if we can lob it to one of Fellaini, Pogba, Mctominay, Matic or even Lukaku then we can start an attack from there while relieving the defense of any sort of pressure.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Any single cm above 190 has consequences for the mobilty of the players

Too many drinks after a bad result??

 

[extincti fugax hominum]

It has nothing to do with heigth or mobility of our players. Even at 0-2 we failed to pin them back at Old Trafford with 15 minutes to go and that says all about our approach to the games you need to know really. We prefer to give the control of the ball (and thus control of the game more often than not) to our opponents and that's mostly down to the tactics and Jose himself. We respect too much to the opposition and are only looking to exploit their mistakes and weaknesses. We should be more agressive, expressive and on the front foot much more often but Mourinho has to change his approach for that. Players also need to take the initiative more frequently but that takes some boll*cks and character too which i highly doubt some of our players have.

 

[simonhch]

Matic and Fellaini are 194, Pogba 191. Any single cm above 190 has consequences for the mobilty of the players. 4-5 cm may look like a nothing difference but in reality they may make a serious difference.

Btw, Banega is 174. And he makes them tick more than any other player (if I'm not wrong).

And City have the shortest squad in the PL. Maybe that helps too?

This is up there with the all time classic that left footed penalty takers are more predictable.