Yep, I agree. Under JM we seem to have different approach to the game.
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Mourinho : "Transfer spend is not enough"
- Thread starter Maradona10
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He is right you know. We need to sell all the deadwood probably get around 100m for it add another 150m and that is a 250m summer. He should also be allowed to spend at least 50m this January from last years kitty. Buy well and we are ready to challenge for the title next season.
I 100% agree, improvement is being made but City being mentioned constantly to him as our neighbors and the press' love in with Pep - the club should be getting on with their own business for sure but it is continuously and unfairly in my opinion being shoved in Jose and us fans faces 24/7 as if squads are on a level playing field.
I want him to stay and I want him to get the money required to improve us - I just dont want us to go 15-20 years without a title, which is conceivable with the money being thrown about.
It's not that though, of course I thought we'd be in a title race this year. City have blown everybody out of the water and the fact is were not doing that badly. I can look past this season- city have it in the bag and it's gutting- but for me mourinho has shown enough in the market and in the points column to show he's improving us. He'd probably argue that if we had gotten perisic and gone with his 352 he seemed to me aiming for that we'd be better off and a bit more balanced- and that's the thing, were nowhere near as far away as people want to say, city are causing people to over react hugely. 1 or 2 players combined with improvements more cohesion more gelling and it could all click into place. (Last thing we need is more upheaval)
For me, this is yet another example of where mourinho said something that isn't really wrong and isn't particularly exciting, but is used to absolutely hammer him. And I'm not even a huge fan of the guy but having tried two other managers post fergie he's the one id put everthing behind - I do trust him. I've said my piece about many posters on this forum, who are such toxic spoilt 21st century fans that even something as innocuous as this becomes such an inflammatory thing.
He's 18 months in the job. 18. Think long and hard about where we were at that point. Do we still have a way to go? Yes 100%. But personally I would call sorting out the travesty we were in as a club within 3 years an incredible achievement especially given what rivals are doing
Indeed.
City came from a starting point far below the 7th position ‘disaster’ of Moyes’s season.
To get a decent longterm squad, climb up the table and compete - you have to spend (Leicester excepted).
There’s not many old timers from the early years of the takeover left at City - Kompany, Silva, aguero, yaya. Kompany is sadly physically knackered. Yaya is no longer the beast. Aguero has a few more good years before going back to Argentina. Silva has become evergreen, but not for much longer and will go back to his island birthplace.
The rest have been replaced (duds and successes) over the years, but the current squad mainly consists of incoming young players from the last 3 years.
To do this, City Gross spent a fortune, or even nett spent a smaller fortune.
So Mourinho (despite his opposite view when winning the CL with Porto), is possibly correct in that he needs more money to buy.
But actual ‘cost’, that’s another matter.
A yearly player cost is there wages and the amortisation value of any transfer fee spread over the lifetime of their initial signing on contract.
Eg ibrahimovic transfer cost = £0, weekly wage bandied about £350k per week. real cost over a year is £18m.
Transfer cost of say £50m for a 5 year contract (£10m a year amortisation) with £150k per week (£7.8m a year) is approx the same real cost of £18m a year.
Figures from a far more financially astute person than me:
2015:
United £302m
City £264m
2016:
United £320m
City £292m
2017:
United £388m
City £386m
So the actual yearly financial costs of wages and transfers (amortisation) , show that over the last 3 years, United’s costs are £68m more.
Approx the headline transfer fee for Lukaku.
NB: City’s Figure for 2017 is for a 13 month financial year, so in reality the figure is bigger by 12/13 - about £30m uplift.
So the difference is approx £100m of real player costs in the past 3 years.
The large difference in players leaving city and United in the past few years, has helped the real costs of city to a degree as well - with many longterm high wages leaving.
I’m unsure what type of figure (gross transfer, nett transfer or real cost) Mourinho is referring to when he wants more money, but his team already has spent more recently.
I meant as in terms of squad quality. Catching them in terms of quality all over the pitch. I know we cant catch them this season.
Well, if he looks 'happy', some people here (not you) will say he doesn't care, or he is here just for the paycheck.
United have spent an obscene amount of money since SAF left, and yet recently, we still played with 7 SAF signings..!
That's a clear indication that there has been a criminal waste of huge sums of money these past 5 years, so I think its absolute rubbish to say haven't spent enough to forge a good team.
However, maybe Mourinho's comments, timed and delivered a week before the January window, are simply a tactic to get the purse strings loosened for January, because just maybe there is a big signing within reach....?
That's a clear indication that there has been a criminal waste of huge sums of money these past 5 years, so I think its absolute rubbish to say haven't spent enough to forge a good team.
However, maybe Mourinho's comments, timed and delivered a week before the January window, are simply a tactic to get the purse strings loosened for January, because just maybe there is a big signing within reach....?
Aye, I am not saying he is great. At the risk of quoting myself, being the most creative player in the current Man Utd squad is like being the best looking man in the serious burns ward... Or the better looking chuckle brother...
Look at the top 10 transfers in the world right now, and you would really appreciate Jose's comments.
1. Neymar, Barcelona to Paris St Germain, 2017, £200.6m
2. Ousmane Dembele, Borussia Dortmund to Barcelona, 2017, £96.8m
3. Paul Pogba, Juventus to Manchester United, 2016, £89m
4. Gareth Bale, Tottenham to Real Madrid, 2013, £85.3m
5. Cristiano Ronaldo, Manchester United to Real Madrid, 2009, £80m
6. Gonzalo Higuain, Napoli to Juventus, 2016, £75.3m
7= Romelu Lukaku, Everton to Manchester United, 2017, £75m
7= Virgil van Dijk, Southampton to Liverpool, 2018, £75m
9. Luis Suarez, Liverpool to Barcelona, 2014, £65m
10. James Rodriguez, Monaco to Real Madrid, 2014, £63m
When Virgil van Dijk is worth that money, then you know something is wrong with todays market. A small club like Liverpool spending so much money means one of two things:
1. They sold Coutinho, so they have gone on a spending spree.
or/and
2. Jose is right, £300m right now is a pocket change for big clubs like Man Utd.
1. Neymar, Barcelona to Paris St Germain, 2017, £200.6m
2. Ousmane Dembele, Borussia Dortmund to Barcelona, 2017, £96.8m
3. Paul Pogba, Juventus to Manchester United, 2016, £89m
4. Gareth Bale, Tottenham to Real Madrid, 2013, £85.3m
5. Cristiano Ronaldo, Manchester United to Real Madrid, 2009, £80m
6. Gonzalo Higuain, Napoli to Juventus, 2016, £75.3m
7= Romelu Lukaku, Everton to Manchester United, 2017, £75m
7= Virgil van Dijk, Southampton to Liverpool, 2018, £75m
9. Luis Suarez, Liverpool to Barcelona, 2014, £65m
10. James Rodriguez, Monaco to Real Madrid, 2014, £63m
When Virgil van Dijk is worth that money, then you know something is wrong with todays market. A small club like Liverpool spending so much money means one of two things:
1. They sold Coutinho, so they have gone on a spending spree.
or/and
2. Jose is right, £300m right now is a pocket change for big clubs like Man Utd.
I think the frustration that is being hinted at by Jose, is that currently under Woodward/Glazer there appears to be a process where the club is always seeking to negotiate for a lower price than the release clause. Appears that clubs like Citeh, accept the price if they want the player, pay it and move on.
I still don't understand the desire to save £5 million on a transfer fee given the financial position and turnover of the club. Woody doesn't have to appear to be a financial wizard and negotiator, this is football business , not board room boasting.
If the manager identifies a player that will improve the team, make the signing and understand the return, there is real competition for players and even if Woody thinks we are the biggest club in the world, that really matters little in the modern world of player managers and money. Woody and the board need to understand the real market, not the one they believe they are negotiating in, they are no longer sitting in a position of power over other clubs.
I still don't understand the desire to save £5 million on a transfer fee given the financial position and turnover of the club. Woody doesn't have to appear to be a financial wizard and negotiator, this is football business , not board room boasting.
If the manager identifies a player that will improve the team, make the signing and understand the return, there is real competition for players and even if Woody thinks we are the biggest club in the world, that really matters little in the modern world of player managers and money. Woody and the board need to understand the real market, not the one they believe they are negotiating in, they are no longer sitting in a position of power over other clubs.
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^^^^^ absolutely right. When you look on the list, it's an anomaly but an unhealthy precedent for the future. Is he that much better than say Smalling or Jones who have already played at CL level?
Like said, 300m enough if just 'good defenders' cost 70m. A world class one would be over 120m then? If we are going to buy ourselves out this in order to compete, we are probably talking another half a billion with no guarantees of success. Also the players we are looking at are more about their clubs selling high, in order to buy the very players we should have been going for in the first place. Real will happily sells us Bale to use the money to buy Kane.
Like said, 300m enough if just 'good defenders' cost 70m. A world class one would be over 120m then? If we are going to buy ourselves out this in order to compete, we are probably talking another half a billion with no guarantees of success. Also the players we are looking at are more about their clubs selling high, in order to buy the very players we should have been going for in the first place. Real will happily sells us Bale to use the money to buy Kane.
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I can't believe what Liverpool have spent on VVD , just shows there is no end in sight to the transfer fees madness .
We can write off any hope of the prem this year and I think we are likely to be in a battle with Chelsea , Spurs , Liverpool and Arsenal for one of the top 4 spaces , after this recent disappointing period and with Liverpool at last strengthening there defence I think we have a real fight on our hands .
Will be interesting to see how this window pans out for us we need reinforcements all over the pitch but who we buy will be a clear indication of our plan for the remainder of the season .
If he is worried we will miss out on top 4 I would go big on Ozil immediately in the hope that the Arsenal board will want to cash in before he leaves for free in the summer.
If he thinks we have a sneaky chance in the Champs lge then maybe Mahrez would be an option as one of the very few top players not ruled out of playing for us in Europe .
Either way it's going to be an interesting few weeks .
With City now coasting 15 points ahead of us it just confirms what we already know in that the squad still needs further major surgery to have any hope of competing with City next year
We can write off any hope of the prem this year and I think we are likely to be in a battle with Chelsea , Spurs , Liverpool and Arsenal for one of the top 4 spaces , after this recent disappointing period and with Liverpool at last strengthening there defence I think we have a real fight on our hands .
Will be interesting to see how this window pans out for us we need reinforcements all over the pitch but who we buy will be a clear indication of our plan for the remainder of the season .
If he is worried we will miss out on top 4 I would go big on Ozil immediately in the hope that the Arsenal board will want to cash in before he leaves for free in the summer.
If he thinks we have a sneaky chance in the Champs lge then maybe Mahrez would be an option as one of the very few top players not ruled out of playing for us in Europe .
Either way it's going to be an interesting few weeks .
With City now coasting 15 points ahead of us it just confirms what we already know in that the squad still needs further major surgery to have any hope of competing with City next year
Think Liverpool have just killed the window as the precedent bar has definitely been raised. Any chairman worth their weight will say 'if Liverpool have just paid £75m for a defender in January .....'
Not to answer directly, but just a point: are people not allowed to form new opinions based on the progression of time? I can't tell you how hot and cold we've been with regards to a host of players, Smalling, Jones, Rojo, even Blind for some and Darmian. Similarly, during LVG, a lot of us were trying to see the positives, a lot of that is trying to coax yourself into believing that things can become OK. With hindsight, pretty much everyone now recognises that LVG was a disaster appointment, and obviously everyone thinks the same about Moyes.
At the start of the season, most pundits were talking about how great our squad was and that we were favourites. I think that was as much down to Jose being manager as anything else. Turns out, our super injury prone defence makes it impossible to have a settled back four. And that it's hard going forward with ageing wingers at full back, compared to having actual full backs. Also turns out our midfield depth is non-existent and Ander has completely gone off the boil. Also turns out we really needed that right winger, the fourth recruit.
I'll freely admit that I have many times overestimated the quality of not only our squad, but our first 11. I think quite a lot did. It had a lot to do with expectation. My expectations were that we were, in the aftermath of the SAF era, trying to get things back ticking, be competitive. Nothing more. Under SAF, it was kinda the same. We weren't seriously trying to become the best team in Europe since Ronnie left and that wonderful team was broken up.
So if you take what Jose said, a big club vs a big team, we aren't a big team, we haven't been for ages. If SAF had stayed on without actual proper investment, I still think other teams would have kept us from the title. City were already better then, SAF just about made the difference, but City were still progressing.
What is your preference? @Dobbs who do you want to come in and turn this team into world beaters?
Just don't buy from within the EPL. Sigurdsson and Van Dijk cost combined 125 million. Other clubs around Europe will acquire better CB and AMC for half of that. I can guarantee that teams will get better CB for cheaper. One signing doesn't decide the overall market.
Course posters are allowed to change their mind. However when it's such a significant shift, from saying we've got the best XI to three months later saying Mourinho is working wonders to keep us second I think it's fair to ask what's going on.
Interestingly the few posters I've pointed this out to haven't like yourself simply admitted a change of mind, they've actually denied they ever held said position. Despite me quoting them in black and white. So is it a change of mind or rewriting history to merely defend the manager?
I actually think it's a good idea to look at past opinions and compare it to now. We all chuck out so much stuff. I've no problem with anyone doing the same with me.
In terms of my preference I want Jose to have another season here. Last thing we need is another manager coming in and giving players we know aren't good enough another 12 months to prove themselves. I also want Mourinho to stop being such a negative nelly. He looks miserable and the team looks miserable. The best teams enjoy their football.
But is not jose's fault that managers before him wasted money by buying duds.
Wasn't suggesting it decided the market but in my opinion it does have a ripple effect. Liverpool are paying that amount for that very reason due to market forces. Other teams will acquire players cause they are shopping in a different market. Whether they are better, the only way to tell is if they were signing for Liverpool too. Signing for top teams are about the pressure to play at that level as much the ability to....
Agree but in defence of the other managers, only hindsight of these signings allows us to have an opinion. Depay was the best young Dutch player at the time and historically Dutch players have done well in this league. No science to ever predict the outcome of transfers...
I assume you're not speaking about me with either of these statements, for the sake of my sanity tell me you're not.
But then one cannot blame Jose for that or say we have spent silly money since sir Alex retired in the context of Jose.
I can't say I enjoy his demeanour but I also grant him leeway, he knows what he is doing. Remember Pep last season where he looked completely insane because he was so passively aggressively happy.
It is a change of mind, but more than anything, it is a change of expectations, it's a "where are we heading". After the collective depression of the previous two managers and the ensuing destruction of belief, most on here were just hoping for someone to come in and prevent a complete and utter implosion. That's been achieved. Then it became about winning the league, with the accompanying media hype bandwagon. I jumped on that briefly too, but of course, City just destroyed all in their wake and raised the bar quite significantly while we came to see that our first 11 is injury prone and lacks consistency, being completely overly reliant on the two midfielders Jose has bought. Then Jose shakes things up with his latest quotes and we are asking, where does the club want to be, among the elite or incrementally improving at each turn?
I don't think many were thinking, at the start of the season, despite the great start and the 4-0s, that we were some European powerhouse all of a sudden. Now we've got a manager who can lead a European powerhouse quite well, but we've not got the team to reflect that. We are, and have been for maybe 5-6-7 years, well short of serious quality in so many areas.
Who said it was..?
Yep, I agree. You'll find those who blame him, probably didn't want him here in the first place as why would anyone logically blame someone for players they didn't buy anyway....
Who said it was..?
I presume this is for Jose.
Even if we decide to spend who do you guys think we can really get that would improve our squad. Most top players seem to choose other teams over us for some odd reason.
No not yourself.
Winning the league, City, being a European powerhouse....I don't really care. These arguments always get brought up but it's not what I and others are asking for.
How about we get just two of our attacking players performing to their best? That would be a start before complaining about money and a lack of talent.
Great, would be curious to see the contrasting quotes in question.
I don't know how you reach that presumption?
To reiterate, United have spent a colossal amount of money since SAF retired, yet more than half the team still consists of SAF signings....to say that we have a weak squad because there hasn't been the investment is plain wrong.
United have been competitive and been a major player in the transfer market, but as a club, the choices made have been piss poor.
Mourinho should have walked into a job where the first XI was laden with top quality talent, and all that he should have had to do was add a few and install his own 'philosophy'..
Yeah, I think that's failing to recognise quite serious drawbacks that need remedying. If there weren't significant flaws in our team, we'd already be doing what you are suggesting. That being said, I expect us to improve soon, we've been below par for a while now.
Have a look through my recent posts to see them. I think Lentwood was the most extreme case but there's plenty of others.
I mean I still think you've made a large shift. A year ago you felt we had an "extremely talented squad" and you were telling others not to fall for the grass is greener trick when it comes to opposition squads. Since then we've spent £150 million on Lukaku, Matic and Lindelof. You should now be raving about the quality we have but it's actually quite the opposite.
Yeah the flaw is none of the attacking players are performing like we know they can. Maybe Lingard is. You can't excuse Mourinho of that by mentioning drawbacks. That's what his job is, to get players performing.
I think we just have very differing opinions, which is fair enough. I could labor the point, but we aren't looking at things from the same perspective. I'm not trying to tailor everything to shield Jose from blame, but I still think those attacking players are part of a team collective, which needs stability and balance. If we haven't got enough outlets or ball carriers, it's going to be difficult. I do expect us to improve sharpish, but like I say, we see things differently.
We do have a talented squad! in fact my issue is pretty clearly with those claiming mourinho has messed up improving it. And all that said it still has glaring deficiencies which he needs more time and money to fix
You've also absolutely cherry picked the context of that entire post which if anything validates the claim that mourinho had work to do, even with our talented players
Ah don't go there. Don't join the club who blame context or me twisting their words or semantics or the device they're using.
Are you for real? There's no twisting or semantics.
"These guys are underperforming constantly, flat out failing regularly and getting away with murder. And it will keep happening until the core is rebuilt completely wit the right kind of player. In the meantime, we'll Probably end up blaming the managers and almost everybody else"
That is a snippet of what was a damning account of even our most talented players, just a short amount of time into mourinhos reign. You were the one that took the snippet that removed from the entire post suited what yiu were saying, you even qualified it while you did it. You are relentlessly stubborn and near impressive at racing past anything close to a response- you just level your next accusation
You've misunderstood me. That's apparently what I've done when directly quoting others. I'm not accusing you of it. That was pretty clear.
You wanted the core rebuilt and now it has been. £150 million spent on the core since you made that comment. In fact Jose has bought two centre backs, two midfielders and two centre forwards. You say you're happy with the players bought so from your point of view there shouldn't be anything else holding us back. What you wanted a year ago has been done.
Unfortunately you've now moved on to a fresh set of problems that are apparently stopping the manager from making us any better.
Except, and here comes another completion of the full circle. We. Are. Better. Significantly. Room to improve, room to play nicer stuff. Yes and yes. But much better and only eighteen months in.
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Can't fault anything there. Well, I'd say a right-winger over a left-winger, but I'm glad this perspective is seeping into public debate. We need to talk about a lack of ambition going back years and years.
Can't fault anything there. Well, I'd say a right-winger over a left-winger, but I'm glad this perspective is seeping into public debate. We need to talk about a lack of ambition going back years and years.