We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team

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I feel sorry for Pogba - because clearly his best position is the left of a midfield 3 - and we've played well with that system - but Jose in his wisdom decides not to continue with it.

He shouldn't be having defensive duties, it's not suited to him. However I have to agree with something I read online: "compare him to De Bruyne. Both similar players, but De Bruyne¿s attitude and approach towards every game is what sets him apart from Pogba. Works harder and as a result he scores more goals and provides more assists" So we're not using him in his best position which doesn't help - but sometimes he does go missing.

He's our best player - I wish we were utilising him properly.
 
I've been a lurker on this forum for I can't remember how many years and this has got to be the biggest wum/knee jerk in the history of the cafe.

Maybe a poll should be added.
 
Pogba can't play when pressed, Lukaku can't play at all. That's the difference.
 
ivaldo said:
It's tactics, that's it. Put Iniesta in this set up and you'd be making the same thread about him, clueless.
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Mate, if it was Iniesta tonight, he will glide Spurs midfielders easily. Playing through ball to Sanchez, Lukaku, and Martial. Or even decide to dribble to penalty box himself to have a chance to score.

And while it is true that one player can not do it all by himself, Pogba, with all of expectations around him, should take the responsibility more seriously.

He is the captain of one of the successful club in the world, he is the most expensive one in the club, he is considered one of the best midfielder in the world, he had won many things with his previous club.

All those factors should be the supporting ones for him to become better, to be the best, to prove that now he is the main man, who can impact the game. If there's a deadlock, he should be the one trying hardest to open it. It is the part of his development being a true World Class player.

If he has difficulty here compared to when he was at Juventus, he needs to adapt. Even if it will sacrifice his personal glory. Look at Giggs or CR7 or Messi, they adapt to the changes, to the team mate, to tactical, etc.

Hope he will improve in the next games, specially at CL.
 
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Jose needs to adopt a 3 man midfield which many of us have known for a long time. 3 man midfield gives Pogba the freedom to link up with the forward line better and also gives an extra man as an outlet for Matic and the back four, whilst obviously being a better option defensively too.

With Sanchez coming into the team 3 up top seems to be the minimum in order to utilise our best players(unless you drop Lukaku).

Our team is a very good one if utilised correctly but I think the third midfielder is the problem, Mourinho does not have the confidence in McTominay or Herrera and rightly so.

Shaw has to also start left back from now on and we need to get another Centre Back as it seems Lindelof won't likely be a starting CB next year.

4-3-3

De Gea
Valencia(to replace) - Bailly - Lindelof(to replace) - Shaw
Gomes?(to buy new World class CM) - Matic - Pogba
Sanchez Lukaku Martial

Sanchez Martial Lingard Rashford Lukaku & Mata are all relatively interchangeable depending on the game.
Gomes has to come in to the team, he has too much talent.
Valencia and Young need to be our back up full backs.
Herrera, McTominay and Jones would be my picks for back up to Matic.
 
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People can joke on Noodle all they want, and call him a knee-jerk, but Pogba has been from mediocre to awful in pretty much every match against good teams since he has come here. In fact, his only good performance was against Arsenal this season when he got send off.

So, I agree with Noodle on criticism against Pogba, it is just and fair. However, I don't agree that Pogba cannot improve. I think it is more a mental barrier than anything else, and other players have had it too. Cristiano typically under-performed against top teams for the first four years he was here (yes, even in 2006-2007 season when he was best/second best player in the world). He scored the first UCL KO stage goal in 2007. Zlatan typically underperformed in big matches while he was at Juve and Inter. I think that he scored one goal against Juve, Inter and Milan during those years and his first UCL KO stage goal came in 2010 against Leverkusen.

Both of them became much better at it, with Ronaldo now having broken every record in KO, quarters, semis of UCL (I think he shares the record with Messi for the finals), and being second all time scorer in El Classico. So, I guess that Pogba can improve and it depends entirely on him. Saying that, so far he has been crap in those difficult matches when you expect your best player to be your best - not worst - player.
 
He has the same issue that Gerrard had. He doesn't have the positional awareness to play in a two. He needs to play in a three or as the 10 but I have a feeling that even if he did play as the 10, he would probably drop too deep to get on the ball as I agree he does like to showboat. He needs to focus on off the ball movement like Gerrard and Lampard did, late runs into the box etc. But then again Matic and Herrera are hardly creative enough to play first time incisive passes inbetween the lines like Alonso, Pirlo could.
 
I kind of agree with some of the points made about Pogba, but he has shown time and again he has incredible talent but at his age he needs to start showing a certain level of consistency. I think one of the problems with Pogba is the media hype, they have built him up as this young prodigy which could be the next Ronaldo, Messi etc and that has gone to his head, can't blame him for lapping up all the attention and thinking he is already there but unfortunately he is not.
It is time for him to really knuckle down and shine, show what he is capable of and consistency that is most important thing. Maybe Jose subbing him for the first time in his Man Utd career will be just what the doctor ordered, a wake up call that he is replaceable and droppable from the team.
 
Biji.Kelot said:
Mate, if it was Iniesta tonight, he will glide Spurs midfielders easily. Playing through ball to Sanchez, Lukaku, and Martial. Or even decide to dribble to penalty box himself to have a chance to score.
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Uhuh.
 
Ramshock said:
Its high time you stopped typing.
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So the performances of Pogba have proved me wrong ?

Especially his kung-fu try to score a goal last night , 2 meters from the goal line , despite just heading it and scoring
 
noodlehair said:
No one wants to say it because he has ability and cost a shite load of money, but it's more true than the thread saying the same about Lukaku.

Pogba is a playground footballer. Turns up to show off in games where the opposition are poor enough to allow us the luxury of him doing so. As soon as the team need him however, you can forget it.

He is more interested in inventing silly handshake routines, showing off, and wanting people to look at his hair, than he ever will be in working hard to help his team win a game.

He has the selfishness of a Gerrard or a Ronaldo but without any of the desire, determination, or basic maturity to go with it, and he's 24 years old. It is unlikely at this point he will ever grow up, and that means he will never be more than a liability in any game where it is important for him to put in work for the benefit of the team.

The idea some people have of playing him further forward because he doesn't work hard enough to play in central midfield is a nonsense...as if playing him in another position somehow makes it less important that he works hard. In a succesful team, every player works harder than Paul Pogba ever does.

The fact is that he is on a pedestal as United's best player, but when you look at City (i.e. the team top of the league), if Paul Pogba played for them in the same way he does for United, he would be told to either grow up or feck off. He wouldn't get close to getting a game for them unless he had a serious change of attitude. At United he seems to go completely unchecked for it because he can showboat around onceor twice every ten games, against the likes of Stoke.
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I agree with this bit. That goes not only for Pogba but for the likes of Martial and Rashford who when played on the left are absolutely diabolical defensively.

Football's evolved and you need to attack as a team and defend as a team. But we're stuck in some weird delusional past where we still have Rio and Vidic to fall back on or Scholes to keep possession. Or Ronaldo to create something from nothing.
 
Judas said:
This is classic meltdown caf nonsense. Pogba would slot in to any team in the world, he's that good. We're wasting his talents.
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And he would be shit in most teams built like United. I still don't have a clue about Mourinho's project, I don't know what he is trying to build, what is our bread and butter. We are wank at counter attacking, we can't soak up pressure from good team, we aren't particularly physical, we aren't particularly technical, we can't move the ball in the last third or stretch defenses.
 
This thread is trash, mostly because the majority of posters are unable to properly assess the utilization of players in managerial defined systems. Pogba is an attacking weapon. He should not be deployed as a SAM site in a defensive antiaircraft setup.

United have been overrun and swamped repeatedly in many of these 'big games'. That's a numbers problem. The possession differential is just exaggerated in these instances. 3 vs 2s in the middle of the park, coupled with inadequate CBs is a recipe for disaster. The system is bad but many of the component parts are just not good enough. Professional football is not just about quality and endeavour. There are systems of attack and defense. You don't just will your way to victory when your assets are not properly deployed. Just ask any of those failed anti-insurgency campaigns.

If Pep played KDB as a de facto sitting CM, his 'attitude' would be totally different (KDB's defensive duties are not oppressive). Buffon, Chiellini, Bonucci can all testify to Pogba's attitude. He's played under Conte and Allegri. If you're not going to play to his off-the-chart on the ball ability and get him into those dangerous attacking areas consistently then he should be sold. If you're not going to build the team around him, he should be sold.
 
Can't believe how many people actually believe the OP is serious.

The world has gone mad. Madder.
 
K2K said:
He missed every other big game.

Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Spurs at home.

Arsenal was his only big game this season. Until yesterday.
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He was at United last season too. It's a pretty decent sample size. And its not necessarily just big games. He just shrinks and looks a bit lost in the tighter games. They tend to be against the better teams but smaller sides can also shut shown space effectively at times.

There was these two moments that summed him up. One where he was marking Ali from a throw in and somehow Ali's dummy run completely threw him off. And the other where he was on the ball and felt he had plenty of time on the ball but Ali nicked it off him.

Pogba is a terrific footballer. I pretty look forward only to watching him and Martial these days. But I do see a flaw with and struggling to shine with a lack of time and space. He has to prove he has improved to the extent where it's not an issue rather than missing games apparently doing it for him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Presumably that's an opinion based on his performance against top teams last season. From memory, he didn't play well in any of them.
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Fair enough. What I’d highlight though is that we consistently ask him to be a DM in these despite it being apparent that a DM is the one thing he just isn’t. He can’t even defend from set pieces without causing me to have kittens! To ask him to be a holding / deep-lying midfielder is to ask for trouble.

Issue yesterday was that Jose suddenly decided to do a Klopp and go for an approach where our attackers would put the game to bed, at the expense of having a weaker defence. Was this because even our fans were asking for a more attacking performance in big games “befitting our status”? I don’t know obviously but it’s likely Jose decided to try and give the crowds what they want and it backfired spectacularly.

I can only assume we will now revert to a more cautious approach in big games with hopefully a third midfielder to offer cover and allow Pogba to do what he does best - be an attacking asset.
 
Didn't Pogba start in a midfield 3 at home to Liverpool last season, giving possibly his worst half of football in a United shirt, and subsequently improving a bit in a 2 after halftime? I could be remembering it wrong but either way, not sure what his position in midfield had to do with giving that ridiculous penalty away.

There's more truth to the OP than some want to admit on here.
 
I get this thing about tactics that people keep saying but I honestly struggle to understand how tactics was responsible for the utterly shambolic display I saw yesterday from top level professional footballers who earn in a week what many people don't earn in years. They couldn't pass, they couldn't dribble, they couldn't hold the ball, they couldn't shoot. Their decision making in many instances, were pathetic. I don't get how tactics was responsible for that. I need enlightenment. When players do the most basic things right in football, then we can move on to discussing tactics. What was 'tactical' about Smalling failing to cover his space well to prevent Ali from sneaking in a back pass? And what was 'tactical' about not tracking Erikson? And what was 'tactical' about Jones kicking the damn ball out rather than into his own post when there was absolutely no pressure around him? How did 'tactics' make him do that? I need to understand. Our back four was a mess. None of them played out of position. Matic was playing at a snail's speed and making bad passes. He didn't play out of position. Yes, we seem more suited for a 4-3-3 and I want to see Pogba playing more upfront but what did that have to do with Paul making terrible basic decisions on the pitch or Martial not passing when he ought to be passing?

We need to look at this whole thing more holistically. The OP might seem ridiculous and I agree we should avoid knee-jerk reactions but Many of our players really need to look themselves in the mirror and ask some questions. Pogba may not have played in his natural position but it is no excuse for yesterday's performance at all. He has played in that same position in the last two seasons and played very well in many games so the idea that once he is playing there, he can't do the basics right, is strange.

Yes, Jose must reconsider his tactics but I believe his first and more important task is to develop a squad of real ballers who can handle the big pressures - no matter the tactics deployed.
 
Dion said:
Two stupid goals, dents the confidence more than the opposition out-playing you. There's nothing to get angry about when it's self inflicted.
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Well, sure. But we still had a flipping hour to get a grip on ourselves and get back into the game. That's what really grips my shit about last night. For a spell between the first and second goal we took the game to Spurs, caused them a lot of problems and looked like an equaliser was imminent. And that wasn't because of any kind of tactical switch or change in our formation. Just playing with a bit of belief, backing ourselves to play decent football and actually having a go at them.

The fact that we couldn't once repeat what we showed early on in the game, for the 60+ minutes after conceding the second speaks volumes about the lack of leadership (and, basically, balls) on the pitch. This emotional/mental fragility has been a feature of our football ever since Fergie left and it's a worry that we're spending so much money and are still haven't got any real leaders in our team. When the chips are down we shit ourselves, time and time again. That worries me far more than whether Pogba is at his best in a midfield two or a midfield three.

FWIW, the lack of big game mentality in our team also helps explain our poor record against the top six teams over the last couple of seasons. Instead of rising to the occasion, we seem much more likely to do the complete opposite. People can moan about parking the bus and formations all they want but we'll win feck all so long as the supposed stars of our team keep buckling under pressure. Ibrahimovic brought a little bit of this to our team last season, the obvious example being his contribution in the league cup final. Since he's gone, though, nobody else has stepped up. And it's not unreasonable to hope that the bloke this thread is about could be doing a lot more in this regard, instead of flapping his arms and strolling around throwing strops at the referee.
 
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2cents said:
Didn't Pogba start in a midfield 3 at home to Liverpool last season, giving possibly his worst half of football in a United shirt, and subsequently improving a bit in a 2 after halftime? I could be remembering it wrong but either way, not sure what his position in midfield had to do with giving that ridiculous penalty away.

There's more truth to the OP than some want to admit on here.
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Correct.
 
@GM K It's about confidence. A good tactic, a trusted tactic, creates confidence. You see it with all the good teams, conceding an early goal isn't a problem for the better the teams, they have enough trust in their collective structure to regather themselves and slay their opponents. We on the other end are a team that doesn't have a solid gameplan, we don't have anything to rely on collectively, everything is about individuals. And the problem with that is that it's very easy for one player to be a little bit less confident or a little bit less patient when he knows that he will have to do it by himself.

Currently United is a team that ignores the fact that the strength is in the team.
 
JPRouve said:
@GM K It's about confidence. A good tactic, a trusted tactic, creates confidence. You see it with all the good teams, conceding an early goal isn't a problem for the better the teams, they have enough trust in their collective structure to regather themselves and slay their opponents. We on the other end are a team that doesn't have a solid gameplan, we don't have anything to rely on collectively, everything is about individuals. And the problem with that is that it's very easy for one player to be a little bit less confident or a little bit less patient when he knows that he will have to do it by himself.

Currently United is a team that ignores the fact that the strength is in the team.
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What makes you say that? Mourinho has his flaws but he doesn’t have a reputation for obsessive preparation for each and every fixture for nothing. We may lack many things but I don’t think a gameplan is one of them.
 
LeftyBlaster said:
:lol: Chuckle Brothers. Harsh on Jones because I think that's his first poor game in a while. I have zero like for Smalling. He's a brain fart waiting to be let loose at any moment. A wet one at that.

I'd say that the pivot is failing because Pogba is too immature for it. It worked well for Matic and Fabregas with Jose when he came back to Chelsea and won the league. Matic does know how to play a double pivot, but if we want him and Pogba to flourish together they need a workhorse destroyer.
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True, Jones has delivered solid performances through-out the year and Smalling definatly has his weaknesses when pressured. However i just don't think Pogba and Matic is would be able to performe like Matic and Fabgregas did. If i remeber correctly Oscar was doing quite som defensive work and covering a lot of ground from the attacking mid spot, which was the main reason he was prefered over Mata. Eriksen and Alli was a consant concern, mostly cause from the acres of space they had between our midtfield and defenders. It did not help that our pressing game was way off and that Kane was dominating both Jones and Smalling. I also think some of our rythym was distrubed by the introduction of Sanchez and i will probably take some time before he gets the understandig needed with Pogba, Lingard etc. I felt like he was occuping the space that Pogba usally strives in and was some of the reason Pogba was totally anonominous. Also hats of to Spurs and the likes of Dembele, Eriksen and the cnut Alli for playing us off the park.
 
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It s not outrageous to say I wouldnnot buy the current Pogba for 100 mils at the moment. He has great potential, but has yet to show he deserves having a team of our stature built around him based on the last 2 seasons
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well, sure. But we still had a flipping hour to get a grip on ourselves and get back into the game. That's what really grips my shit about last night. For a spell between the first and second goal we took the game to Spurs, caused them a lot of problems and looked like an equaliser was imminent. And that wasn't because of any kind of tactical switch or change in our formation. Just playing with a bit of belief, backing ourselves to play decent football and actually having a go at them.

The fact that we couldn't once repeat what we showed early on in the game, for the 60+ minutes after conceding the second speaks volumes about the lack of leadership (and, basically, balls) on the pitch. This emotional/mental fragility has been a feature of our football ever since Fergie left and it's a worry that we're spending so much money and are still haven't got any real leaders in our team. When the chips are down we shit ourselves, time and time again. That worries me far more than whether Pogba is at his best in a midfield two or a midfield three.

FWIW, the lack of big game mentality in our team also helps explain our poor record against the top six teams over the last couple of seasons. Instead of rising to the occasion, we seem much more likely to do the complete opposite. People can moan about parking the bus and formations all they want but we'll win feck all so long as the supposed stars of our team keep buckling under pressure. Ibrahimovic brought a little bit of this to our team last season, the obvious example being his contribution in the league cup final. Since he's gone, though, nobody else has stepped up. And it's not unreasonable to hope that the bloke this thread is about could be doing a lot more in this regard, instead of flapping his arms and strolling around throwing strops at the referee.
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Apart from all that. Why cant people accept the possibility it was just a collective bad day at the office? Its not like it doesn't happen in football
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Apart from all that. Why cant people accept the possibility it was just a collective bad day at the office? Its not like it doesn't happen in football
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Because it happens to us regularly in games of this profile, which suggests it's a deeper problem than just a random bad performance.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What makes you say that? Mourinho has his flaws but he doesn’t have a reputation for obsessive preparation for each and every fixture for nothing. We may lack many things but I don’t think a gameplan is one of them.
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The displays since day one? He might prepare the team obsessively but the gameplan isn't solid, either because it's a shit one or because the players are unable to execute it but either way we don't have a gameplan we can rely on, no bread and butter.
 
2cents said:
Because it happens to us regularly in games of this profile, which suggests it's a deeper problem than just a random bad performance.
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It really doesn't. We were last this bad vs chelsea at the bridge, last season and at Huddersfield this season. It is not often we have our entire 11 and substitutes simply all not show up with their A game on game day. Not a single player played well. Not even De gea
 
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It really doesn't. We ere last this bad vs chelsea at the bridge, last season and at Huddersfield. It is not often we have our entire 11 and substitutes simply all not show up with their A game on game day. Not a single player played well. Not even De gea
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I thought we were dire against Chelsea and Liverpool away and City at home this season, and in the first half against Liverpool at home last season. Perhaps not as dire as last night but still awful. Looks to me like we tend to choke a bit in these fixtures.
 
FreakyJim said:
I agree with this bit. That goes not only for Pogba but for the likes of Martial and Rashford who when played on the left are absolutely diabolical defensively.

Football's evolved and you need to attack as a team and defend as a team. But we're stuck in some weird delusional past where we still have Rio and Vidic to fall back on or Scholes to keep possession. Or Ronaldo to create something from nothing.
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You make a good point, but the problem isn't really that he doesn't work hard enough in a midfield two. It's that he looks lost against tough opposition that press. He doesn't know whether to stay or go. He loses his sense of his position. He panics when he gets the ball. He commits fouls. The evidence does seem to suggest that Pogba doesn't really have top-class defensive capabilities. We can get away with playing him in a double pivot against teams who sit back and give him miles of time, but in big games he needs to be further forward, because he's not reliable or composed enough when receiving or chasing the ball deep in our own half.
 
Strange thread to make, specifically the bit about him being allowed to play terrible completely unchecked when this was one of the few occasions where he was subbed off.

I do sortve agree with the OP in the sense that, for now, Pogba is not the leader that's going to guide us to winning the league. I think he certainly can be some day and I think we can clearly win the league with him in the team. But right now he is not the leader we need - right now the team doesn't have leader at all.
 
2cents said:
I thought we were dire against Chelsea and Liverpool away and City at home this season, and in the first half against Liverpool at home last season. Perhaps not as dire as last night but still awful. Looks to me like we tend to choke a bit in these fixtures.
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We choked, horribly, in the League Cup final too. Against a bang average team. Although the Europa final does provide a bit of evidence to the contrary.
 
Play him on the LHS of a midfield 3, yes so he can clog up even more the area that Sanchez plays best in?
Give him a chance he will improve, yes a 25 year old with the mentality of a 15 year old.
Fergie would not let this guy anywhere near the first team. And the same goes for his compatriot Martial, who equally disappears in big/difficult matches. Both of them are flat track bullies, sell to Madrid for £200m and but two decent CMs who know their job plus a decent right winger.
Pogba is a liability not an asset.
 
2cents said:
I thought we were dire against Chelsea and Liverpool away and City at home this season, and in the first half against Liverpool at home last season. Perhaps not as dire as last night but still awful. Looks to me like we tend to choke a bit in these fixtures.
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Fair enough. There is chocking and plain not showing up entirely and they IMO are two different things. Yesterday we never stepped on the pitch! The entire team was not at the races. I mean, how often have you seen De Gea pass the ball readily to opponents and Matic pass the ball out under zero pressure? For that reason its uber hard for me to bash our tactics or players. There are days you just play like the Moonstars of Space Jam have stolen your playing skills
 
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