Rio's words on Kane and Lukaku: A Real No. 9

kouroux

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Did you watch the match? Kane is on another level entirely, and it was blindingly obvious to anyone who saw the game. Had absolutely nothing to do with service, but everything to do with their quality as football. It was almost painful to watch.
It's got to do with both reasons at the same time. Not enough quality passing and Lukaku not performing well enough individually.
 

Raees

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Did you watch the match? Kane is on another level entirely, and it was blindingly obvious to anyone who saw the game. Had absolutely nothing to do with service, but everything to do with their quality as football. It was almost painful to watch.
Comes down to lack of football iq. Anyone with sense can see the class differential it has been evident all season.

I personally think we need to get another striker and find a way to shift him if he doesn't progress next season. You don't want an albatross around our necks. I'd first see if Martial or Sanchez can provide an internal solution .. then if not, think a signing this summer would be a smart idea to cover our asses if he flops again next year.
 

J_Red 11

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This season Aguero scored more headed goals than Lukaku, you think that's his strength?
It depends how Aguero scored the header goals. I have already explained that Lukaku scored those headers and other goals from crossings by just standing in the box and out-muscle defenders, so that means his strength and winning headers have been his main assets for him.

Scoring headers depends on lot of factors like positioning, how good the delivery is, how he is marked and by which player, how much space he is given. None of these matters when the ball is hoofed at half way line. He has bring it down or pin point the header to exact position.

I have mentioned many times on what I think is his strength and this is something I said before Lukaku joined the club. He is good at receiving passes to his feet. His weakness is playing with back to the goal and using his physical strength to shield the ball.
The hoofed ball isn't the main issue, we don't play hoofed ball at half way in all our games so far against top 10 sides this season, you are judging our playing style based on one game only against Spurs. We have played football with our feet in a lot of games and Lukaku has failed to score in those games. Positioning & his movement have been the issue for him, he doesn't give option for our midfielders or attacking midfielders to give him service. Even when we give him through ball, his run timing always late. No intelligence at all, all he expects is waiting & receiving the ball straight to him instead of trying to make a lot of good run and find his space.

You look at an example of our former goal poacher who isn't technically top class like Chicharito, the guy knows and loves to make run, find space and give option for our players to give him service. Sir Alex mentioned in his book that in 12/13 he wants his midfielder always go for early pass to split the defense by getting the best out of RVP's mobility and killer instinct. Spurs first goal basically sums up the mobility of Kane, straight kick off, Kane made the run, early pass from Vertonghen and basically split our defense. You look at Lukaku, he's not mobile enough, as a result our players can't give him early passes and defenders found it easy to mark Lukaku.

And players who aren't mobile like Zlatan last season & Berbatov at least technically top class. While Lukaku are both not technically top class & not mobile. Which makes things difficult for him. He has too many limitation to be striker in top club.
 
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roonster09

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It depends how Aguero scored the header goals. I have already explained that Lukaku scored those headers and other goals from crossings by just standing in the box and out-muscle defenders, so that means his strength and winning headers have been his main assets for him.
Which is what I said, scoring headers depend on lot of factors. Winning header at half way line is completely different.



]The hoofed ball isn't the main issue, we don't play hoofed ball at half way in all our games so far against top 10 sides this season, you are judging our playing style based on one game only against Spurs. We have played football with our feet in a lot of games and Lukaku has failed to score in those games. Positioning & his movement have been the issue for him, he doesn't give option for our midfielders or attacking midfielders to give him service. Even when we give him through ball, his run timing always late. No intelligence at all, all he expects is waiting & receiving the ball straight to him instead of trying to make a lot of good run and find his space.

You look at an example of our former goal poacher who isn't technically top class like Chicharito, the guy knows and loves to make run, find space and give option for our players to give him service. Sir Alex mentioned in his book that in 12/13 he wants his midfielder always go for early pass to split the defense by getting the best out of RVP's mobility and killer instinct. Spurs first goal basically sums up the mobility of Kane, straight kick off, Kane made the run, early pass from Vertonghen and basically split our defense. You look at Lukaku, he's not mobile enough, as a result our players can't give him early passes and defenders found it easy to mark Lukaku.

And players who aren't mobile like Zlatan last season & Berbatov at least technically top class. While Lukaku are both not technically top class & not mobile. Which makes things difficult for him.
I'm talking about games against big teams and particularly this game and how much we just hoofed it.

Re other games, Lukaku was involved in lot of moves and build up play. Check his thread, how many people started to appreciate his link up play in recent games.

Re Chicharito, he never played as lone striker. The way we play under SAF was completely different, I agree Lukaku can do more in terms of movement but aimless hoofball won't help our team at all.

Also you mention Zlatan, how many times we played the ball to his feet against big teams? Zlatan was superb that he made something out of it few times but the issue was same even last season. Against big teams away from home, we sat deeper and just played long balls which means possession was lost and we were under pressure again. Nothing has changed with Lukaku in this set up.

Also not sure how he can position himself to receive the pass when many times midfielders just played long ball from defense and hoped everything is fine. Some guy on Reddit even made video on every single pass Lukaku received, there is no way Lukaku can hold up the ball when they just hoof it.

Re bold part, I have posted how many aerial duels Lukaku was involved in other thread, you can check it. Against big teams, our team lack balls to build up play, they look for easy route out especially away from home.
 

Lawman

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I said it before but people shouldn't judge Lukaku by his appearance, he is the opposite of it. He is a big poacher, he wouldn't have to change his game if he was 20cm shorter and 20kgs lighter.
Completely agree
 

roonster09

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I said it before but people shouldn't judge Lukaku by his appearance, he is the opposite of it. He is a big poacher, he wouldn't have to change his game if he was 20cm shorter and 20kgs lighter.
Somehow I missed this, exactly. He is big striker and played for Chelsea and that's where comparison with Drogba ends. People expect him to play like Drogba are the one who are very disappointed.

Said it so many times even before joined, comparison with Drogba can't be more wrong considering their playing style. Drogba's strength is Lukaku's weakness. Lukaku likes to play with ball at his feet.

Also from the man himself.

Not really. I'm different.

Drogba is more of a hold-up player, a target man. I prefer to have ball to feet and run in behind. We're totally different. We might have physical similarities but we're totally different players. I'm Romelu Lukaku, I want to create my own history. I'm at United, he was at Chelsea.
 

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As soon as the ball is played long to Lukaku, I am absolutely sure it's coming straight back at us. Instead of trying to bully the defender, he steps further away from them and then jumps under the flight of the ball. If by some crazy luck he is able to get his head on it, all he does is blindly flick it on like a moron despite knowing there aren't runners beyond him. He is also showing absolutely zero improvement in this. It was appalling to see the difference in quality between Kane and Lukaku this match.
 

NK86

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Somehow I missed this, exactly. He is big striker and played for Chelsea and that's where comparison with Drogba ends. People expect him to play like Drogba are the one who are very disappointed.

Said it so many times even before joined, comparison with Drogba can't be more wrong considering their playing style. Drogba's strength is Lukaku's weakness. Lukaku likes to play with ball at his feet.

Also from the man himself.
Agreed that he isn't like Drogba, but not many players are. However to be a top striker he cannot just be a poacher. He needs to improve other aspects as well which we see little signs of.
 

J_Red 11

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Which is what I said, scoring headers depend on lot of factors. Winning header at half way line is completely different.
What?? Your reply doesn't connect with the point of our original argument.

Why are you keep ignoring the fact that I have mentioned Lukaku most of his goals from headers and other goals from crossings by just standing in the box and out-muscle defenders which are showing strength and winning header are his main assets. But you failed to mention how Aguero scored his goals to tell me his main asset, Aguero is mobile striker mate and tends to find space to score, completely different with Lukaku who prefer to be static and wait for service a lot of time.

I'm talking about games against big teams and particularly this game and how much we just hoofed it.

Re other games, Lukaku was involved in lot of moves and build up play. Check his thread, how many people started to appreciate his link up play in recent games.

Re Chicharito, he never played as lone striker. The way we play under SAF was completely different, I agree Lukaku can do more in terms of movement but aimless hoofball won't help our team at all.

Also you mention Zlatan, how many times we played the ball to his feet against big teams? Zlatan was superb that he made something out of it few times but the issue was same even last season. Against big teams away from home, we sat deeper and just played long balls which means possession was lost and we were under pressure again. Nothing has changed with Lukaku in this set up.

Also not sure how he can position himself to receive the pass when many times midfielders just played long ball from defense and hoped everything is fine. Some guy on Reddit even made video on every single pass Lukaku received, there is no way Lukaku can hold up the ball when they just hoof it.

Re bold part, I have posted how many aerial duels Lukaku was involved in other thread, you can check it. Against big teams, our team lack balls to build up play, they look for easy route out especially away from home.
You are missing the point!!

Chicharito is mobile player, that's why the way how Sir Alex play is playing early passes to him.

Zlatan last season wasn't mobile, and that's why we can't play like the way how Sir Alex used on RVP or Chicharito or Cole. But he's technically top class which is good to bring other players into attack when he's under tight pressure.

Lukaku had neither of these which are showing his limitation, we can't play early passes because he's not mobile enough, and he's been struggling playing with his feet, quick football in tight situation. Jose is forced to play hoofball because of Lukaku's limitation.

Even without hoofball or long ball he'll be so less effective because he will struggle to play with his feet and link up play due to Spurs play high pressure. You need to be technically top class if you want to play against high pressure. For example, how many possession Lukaku has lost when we played through his feet against Southampton and Liverpool's high pressure this season?? What makes you think he can do it against Spurs's high pressure?? He could do it against lesser team and Arsenal because Arsenal midfielders & defenders were playing like headless chicken and poor.
 
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roonster09

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Agreed that he isn't like Drogba, but not many players are. However to be a top striker he cannot just be a poacher. He needs to improve other aspects as well which we see little signs of.
He has shown improvements. Like you said in your other post, when you play long ball to him, it's going to end up only in 1 way most of the times. His link up play when passed to feet has improved and he was praised for it in his performance thread too.

He isn't strictly just a poacher too, for example look at his assist against Burnley. did so much work and then played superb pass.
 

roonster09

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What?? Your reply doesn't connect with the point of our original argument.

Why are you keep ignoring the fact that I have mentioned Lukaku most of his goals from headers and other goals from crossings by just standing in the box and out-muscle defenders which are showing strength and winning header are his main assets. But you failed to mention how Aguero scored his goals to tell me his main asset, Aguero is mobile striker mate and tends to find space to score, completely different with Lukaku who prefer to be static and wait for service a lot of time.
I have already mentioned in my post how scoring a header is different form winning a header at half way line. He scored 3-4 headed goals, how many times he couldn't outmuscle defender? No one cares when it happens in the box.



You are missing the point!!

Chicharito is mobile player, that's why the way how Sir Alex play is playing early passes to him.

Zlatan last season wasn't mobile, and that's why we can't play like the way how Sir Alex used on RVP or Chicharito or Cole. But he's technically top class which is good to bring other players into attack when he's under tight pressure.

Lukaku had neither of these which are showing his limitation, this is why he's been struggling playing with his feet, quick football in tight situation. Even without hoofball or long ball he'll be so less effective because he will struggle to play with his feet and link up play due to Spurs play high pressure. You need to be technically top class if you want to play against high pressure. For example, how many possession Lukaku has lost when we played through his feet against Southampton and Liverpool's high pressure this season?? What makes you think he can do it against Spurs's high pressure?? He could do it against Arsenal because Arsenal midfielders & defenders were playing like headless chicken and poor.
Lukaku is mobile, not agile like Aguero but when played the pass to the channels he gets the ball most of the times as he has very good pace.

How many times Zlatan brought others into play against top teams away from home? We were as bad last season for the reason I mentioned, our players can't bring the ball out of defense and play with courage, which is why they just play long ball to the striker. It happened last season and we faced the same issue even when playing Zlatan who was techincally on of the best striker in years.

There are many more ways to play rather than just play long ball or asking striker to play with back to the goal, one better way is asking striker to run the channels which Lukaku is good enough and even did well in last few games against smaller teams.

So he couldn't do it against Liverpool because he isn't good enough but when he did it against Arsenal, it's their midfield and defenders are headless chicken? There is no way we will agree here, so lets agree to disagree.
 

NK86

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He has shown improvements. Like you said in your other post, when you play long ball to him, it's going to end up only in 1 way most of the times. His link up play when passed to feet has improved and he was praised for it in his performance thread too.

He isn't strictly just a poacher too, for example look at his assist against Burnley. did so much work and then played superb pass.
He does run the channels but his link up play is massively overrated. He is bang average in that.
 

dogwithabone

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Much less pressure at Tottenham. Kane is a tremendous striker but he’s very comfortable there. Carrying the burden of being our striker with all the expectation that comes with it is a different ball game. He’s doing fine and will only get better.
 

J_Red 11

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I have already mentioned in my post how scoring a header is different form winning a header at half way line. He scored 3-4 headed goals, how many times he couldn't outmuscle defender? No one cares when it happens in the box.
Mate, almost all Lukaku's goals this season were because he was outmuscling defenders. If he can't outmuscle defenders, he's useless and that's why he has only scored 2 goals against top 10 sides this season because you can't just outmuscle them easily.

Lukaku is mobile, not agile like Aguero but when played the pass to the channels he gets the ball most of the times as he has very good pace.

How many times Zlatan brought others into play against top teams away from home? We were as bad last season for the reason I mentioned, our players can't bring the ball out of defense and play with courage, which is why they just play long ball to the striker. It happened last season and we faced the same issue even when playing Zlatan who was techincally on of the best striker in years.

There are many more ways to play rather than just play long ball or asking striker to play with back to the goal, one better way is asking striker to run the channels which Lukaku is good enough and even did well in last few games against smaller teams.

So he couldn't do it against Liverpool because he isn't good enough but when he did it against Arsenal, it's their midfield and defenders are headless chicken? There is no way we will agree here, so lets agree to disagree.
Lukaku is mobile? If he's mobile he should be trying to get away from defenders or running behind defenders more often instead of letting the defenders stay tight behind his back too often!! Even Henry has been criticising his movement since the start of season.

Mate, United fans have been moaning about Zlatan tends to drop deeper mainly because he always acted to be false 9 striker to bring other players into play!!

"Smaller teams", that's what I have been saying, Lukaku is only good playing with his feet against the lesser sides but against good defenders in top team or against team with high pressure he struggled!!

Are you telling me Arsenal's midfielders (Xhaka & Ramsey) weren't headless chicken when we attacked them and their defenders weren't poor in that game? They were all over the pitch, and they didn't press us at all, we pressed them in fact. Everyone know Arsenal need to replace their midfielders & defenders. How can you not see this?? "disagree & agree" is just your excuse since you can't counter the argument, you know they were terrible.

Liverpool, Southampton, Spurs, City and etc were the opposite, playing high pressure and discipline against us.
 

KirkDuyt

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Can't find fault with what Rio says, but I don't think anyone is arguing whether Kane is better than Lukaku. Kane at United would be marvelous...
 

Alex1982

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I have to say I’m getting fed up with Lukaku.

There was one moment in the first half when he was out through, not the best of angles but not exactly unrealistic and instead of even trying to shoot he did some half arsed sideways/back flip pass, presumably to Martial although it was nowhere near him.

I think a true high level striker would have buried that chance or at the very least got a good shot away.

I want him to be good enough for all our sakes but I’m starting to have doubts in the same way I did with Miki.
 

groovyalbert

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I can't help but think a part of Rom's issues lately has been his attempt to move away from what is essentially his natural game. People call him a "flat-track-bully" and, although there is far more to his game than that, this was certainly an aspect of his performances at Everton against smaller clubs in the league that made him so effective. His trying to move away from this image isn't necessarily helping us or him.

Of course, there is the added element that when Everton played against these clubs, they were much more willing to try and win the game, so he would naturally end up with more time/space. But he does need to get better at making room for himself. I can't recall a single goal he has scored for us which he created from his own movement and ability to take the ball away from defenders. I've said before how much I like him as a striker, but he appears slower and far less clinical than he was at Everton. No matter what your stance is on him, he needs to change this for him to be a success here. His form at the beginning of his Utd career suggests he has it, he just needs to get back on a scoring run. Annoyingly, I can't see that happening until he makes these changes to his game.
 

Zlatattack

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Lukaku is good and I'm show he'll grow into being a United player and be scoring goals for fun soon enough. Kane is the best in the biz though and almost an unfair comparison to any center forward currently in the game. Kane just has composure in every situation it seems and is a complete striker IMO.
Agree. Kane being incredible doesn't mean Lukaku is poor. Lukaku is currently going through a rough patch and Wednesday was a poor day for all our players and our manager.

Lukaku is a very good striker and will regularly get us 20+ goals in a season. I do think he has scope to improve his game, but just coz our entire team got whooped by Kane, let's not crucify Lukaku.
 

2mufc0

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So Lukaku is the caf's scapegoat right now, at least Lingard will catch a break for a bit i guess.
 

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I said it before but people shouldn't judge Lukaku by his appearance, he is the opposite of it. He is a big poacher, he wouldn't have to change his game if he was 20cm shorter and 20kgs lighter.
It's actually staggering that people don't know this. He's a huge Hernandez, we are trying to mould him into a Drogba which will take time.
Kane is the best in the world IMO but we should be patient with Lukaku.
 

Skills

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Lukaku is probably more useful on the right than he is upfront.

Martial or Alexis should play up front with the other on the left.
 

londonredmaniac

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Lukaku has alot to do to convince he should be the man for years to come.

That being said it's his first season and a fair bit has changed around him, and what's behind him isn't quite right yet.

Benefit of the doubt for now, he's not done bad...room for alot of improvement.
 

Adam-Utd

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TBF he didn't bully Smalling, but he made mince meat of Jones.

I agree though Lukaku could be a lot more aggressive, he seems too gentle.
 

JPRouve

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It's actually staggering that people don't know this. He's a huge Hernandez, we are trying to mould him into a Drogba which will take time.
Kane is the best in the world IMO but we should be patient with Lukaku.
Drogba would be a stretch, he doesn't have the mentality to do it but he could be a sort of Cavani. I think that we should use him in a way that allows him to play instinctively, keep the ball on the ground, low crosses, passes behind the defense or between defenders. Let Lukaku use his speed and ability to cut at the second or first post.
 

Ballache

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Drogba would be a stretch, he doesn't have the mentality to do it but he could be a sort of Cavani. I think that we should use him in a way that allows him to play instinctively, keep the ball on the ground, low crosses, passes behind the defense or between defenders. Let Lukaku use his speed and ability to cut at the second or first post.
Agreed
 

Luciano Venturini

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Kane is quite clearly a better striker than Lukaku and probably better than any striker in the league right now. No one is debating this.

The problem I've got with Lukaku is also that his touch is poor therefore losing possession when taking the ball in tight spaces. But also he is receiving the ball sometimes 70/80 yards from the goal where he is no use at all.

Correct me if i'm wrong but not one of his goals this year has come from him taking the ball at the half way line, giving it, spinning, making a run to receive again and fashioning the chance himself. He is a box player which is why I think we need to go to two up top and play someone like Martial/Rashford/Sanchez with him so he can purely focus on being in the box and finishing moves off rather than dropping deep to start them.
 

Smores

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Of course Kane is on another level and of course this thread would turn into Lukaku bashing.

He hasn't been good enough recently but anyone saying its nothing to do with delivery into him is being agenda driven, he makes plenty of good runs but doesn't get the service. The old trope that he doesn't do enough out of the box is bollocks as well, he's regularly had to drop deep and wide and done well playing others in. It's what surprised me most about him.
 

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I’ll always support Rom while he is at United and nothing would please me more than for him to succeed. Conversely, if he doesn’t show signs of improving (the excuses people make for him is a bit of a joke tbh, if the only way the United #9 is of any use to the team is when goals are served up on a plate then feck me) we need to cut our losses. He’s so limited a footballer not even his age seems a redeeming quality right now.
 

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I think everyone knows that Kane is a better player than Lukaku but some of the shit thrown at Lukaku in this thread is laughable and damn right idiotic. The talk before the Spurs game was how well Lukaku has improved his general play, he had a bad game against Spurs along with 9 other players.

It happens from time to time.
 

Eleven-Eighteen

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What i don't understand is how Lukaku has consistently started to lose headers that come in from a De Gea goal kick, and when he does win them it seems like there is almost never a United player to receive it from him.

For a team of so many 6+ foot giants, we will surprisingly few headers in the middle of the park. Not to mention the f*ck up which was that first Spurs goal.
 
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If you assume service is a one way street Kane’s xG this season is 18.82 but he has 21 goals. Lukaku’s xG is 12.62 but he has 11 goals.

Personally I don’t think service is a one way street. The strikers movement, hold up play and distribution is as crucial to chance creation as the playmakers contribution.
It 100% isn't. no one pays money for someone to just be on the end of receiving crosses and passes into the box. good strikers must make their own service through linking up with teammates and receiving/keeping the ball in advanced areas of their opponents half, otherwise it puts all the burden on the supporting cast.
For those saying Lukaku gets no service. How is it that Zlatan was getting some service last year, but magically this season Lukaku gets none?
Because Zlatan can generate service.
Well it's clear he doesn't even have the ability of someone like Costa let alone Kane. He has scored 1 against any of the top 10 teams. That is all that you need to know about his actual ability
indeed. There are many tiers of striker and Lukaku's limitations do not put him one level below Kane. You could argue Kane is up there with the Ronaldo's and Suarez's and Lukaku isn't just one tier below those guys. He can score goals if given the chances though
zlatan is very good at hold up play , his first touch was class, he brought other player and got into position to strike, something lukaku can't do well
28 goals despite him wasting some good chance and injured since april, shame that he isn't 5 years younger
the perfect Jose striker
 

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We all know before getting Lukaku that Kane is miles ahead of him. I don't think Lukaku is the biggest of worries though. He definitely should improve his big games performance as we didn't pay 75m for him to not score in them but we have more pressing issues and I'm sure Lukaku still has time in his career to improve.

Kane is on a different level. He's the best striker in the world currently. Very complete striker.
Disagree. At least Suarez and Lewandowski are more complete and better players. Kane is a clever striker with a very good shot. I couldn't see him do much more than that specialist role but as long as he is effective there's no need for him to do anything else but to call him best in the world is a stretch, even if he is in the form of his life.
 

broccoli

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Let's be honest. Lukaku is not good enough for a club like Man United. Even if he played for my Porto i would be concerned with his very poor technique. He would still probably trash the Portuguese league but he would be a far cry from some of the best strikers we've had in the recent past.

He could be moulded into lethal powerhouse because he has shown, in the past, that when he is able to apply his power and pace, he can create havoc against any defence.
 

Marcky411

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Problem is its' not so easy. Lukaku is a Raiola client, imagine the fuss Raiola would kick up if we try to bin another of his players. He would take it out on us by encouraging Pogba to move to Spain, most likely.

We should follow Arsenal's exanple. They bought Laca for over 50 mil and now bought Auba when they realized Laca is not enough. So ignore Lukaku's price tag, get in someone like Kane and bench Lukaku. We can afford it.
I fully agree with you on this one, we as Man Utd have been bend over and badly by Raiola having to pay 2 season in a row world record prices for his players and not getting the quality in players we thought we paid for, but then again Man Utd were the ones prepared to pay those ridiculous prices and fees. Unfortunately both players haven't lived up to the expectations and have still got a lot to prove. Both are fixed attributes in the team doesn't matter how bad they play, don't get subbed which is also a bad thing. We all saw what happened to Rooney's performances when he knew he was undroppable, he lost the hunger and the fire/aggression in his game.
For the amount of money we paid for Lukaku we should of got a world class striker and we haven't. Can we say that his game has improved this season playing for Utd, with the quality of players he has got around him, not really. For his money we should've had a player like RvP in his first season at Utd or at least on the level of a Kane or an Aguero.
 

giorno

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Drogba would be a stretch, he doesn't have the mentality to do it but he could be a sort of Cavani. I think that we should use him in a way that allows him to play instinctively, keep the ball on the ground, low crosses, passes behind the defense or between defenders. Let Lukaku use his speed and ability to cut at the second or first post.
He needs to lose 10 Kgs to play like Cavani. He's too heavy, that's why he appears lazy. Lacks stamina
 

Classical Mechanic

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Disagree. At least Suarez and Lewandowski are more complete and better players. Kane is a clever striker with a very good shot. I couldn't see him do much more than that specialist role but as long as he is effective there's no need for him to do anything else but to call him best in the world is a stretch, even if he is in the form of his life.
I don't think it is a stretch. He was the top scorer in the whole of Europe in 2017 beating all other number 9s and Messi and Ronaldo. He doesn't even play for a top side either.
 

JPRouve

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He needs to lose 10 Kgs to play like Cavani. He's too heavy, that's why he appears lazy. Lacks stamina
Agreed, he doesn't appear lazy but heavy. He is clearly a good athlete and his stamina is incredible with that type of body but if he was lighter and concentrated on mastering off the ball movements, he could become very good. That's only my opinion though.